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The Gospel according to Obama


Christianists insist that the United States is a Christian nation. Obama is not a Christianist. He told us in his inaugural address that "our patchwork heritage is a strength, not a weakness. We are a nation of Christians and Muslims, Jews and Hindus, and nonbelievers. We are shaped by every language and culture, drawn from every end of this Earth." While he believes that moral values absorbed through religion have a place in the public sphere, he imposes strict ground rules on those who would invoke religious teachings:

What our deliberative, pluralistic democracy does demand is that the religiously motivated translate their concerns into universal, rather than religion-specific, values. It requires that their proposals must be subject to argument and amenable to reason (The Audacity of Hope).
Obama's religious allusions accordingly are usually of the most universal kind: I am my brother's keeper, I am my sister's keeper. And yet, a second look at his inaugural address made me feel that his thinking is more specifically informed by Christian scripture than I had previously believed. Early in the speech, he swerved into slightly less familiar Biblical language -- the Apostle Paul's "when I became a man, I put away childish things." The full context of that Pauline dictum, I believe, opens a window on the extent to Obama's understanding of America's secular scriptures, the Declaration and the Constitution, are underpinned by his reading of Christian scripture.

Here is Obama's allusion to 1 Corinthians 13:

On this day, we come to proclaim an end to the petty grievances and false promises, the recriminations and worn-out dogmas that for far too long have strangled our politics.

We remain a young nation, but in the words of Scripture, the time has come to set aside childish things. The time has come to reaffirm our enduring spirit; to choose our better history; to carry forward that precious gift, that noble idea, passed on from generation to generation: the God-given promise that all are equal, all are free, and all deserve a chance to pursue their full measure of happiness.
The call to put away childish things had a simple denotation, familiar to anyone who has followed Obama's speeches: to get past the Rovian attack politics that according to Obama have paralyzed our policymaking -- "a politics that breeds division, and conflict, and cynicism," as he put it in his March speech on race. The way he followed that thread, identifying other "childish"political tenets and practices he asked us to move past, is worth a separate post.

But here, I'm more interested in a family likeness between Obama's historiography and Paul's theology. For Paul, becoming a man means achieving, to borrow a favorite phrase of Obama's, a more perfect union:

1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

For Paul, to become a man means to become perfect in love. It means to fulfill a human potential that can never be completely fulfilled in this life: to love God perfectly. This life is a quest for a more perfect union that will be attained in the next.

Obama, like Lincoln, and the Transcendentalists before him, and countless Americans afterward, asserts a similar movement in American history. The Declaration and the Constitution express political principles as perfect in their way (so Obama's invocations of them imply) as Paul's love. Indeed, Obama has asserted that they are in effect political translations of that love. Here's how he put it in his great speech on race in Philadelphia on March 18:

In the white community, the path to a more perfect union means acknowledging that what ails the African-American community does not just exist in the minds of black people; that the legacy of discrimination - and current incidents of discrimination, while less overt than in the past - are real and must be addressed. Not just with words, but with deeds - by investing in our schools and our communities; by enforcing our civil rights laws and ensuring fairness in our criminal justice system; by providing this generation with ladders of opportunity that were unavailable for previous generations. It requires all Americans to realize that your dreams do not have to come at the expense of my dreams; that investing in the health, welfare, and education of black and brown and white children will ultimately help all of America prosper.


In the end, then, what is called for is nothing more, and nothing less, than what all the world's great religions demand - that we do unto others as we would have them do unto us. Let us be our brother's keeper, Scripture tells us. Let us be our sister's keeper. Let us find that common stake we all have in one another, and let our politics reflect that spirit as well.

The title of that speech was "A More Perfect Union." The premise was that the principles expressed in the Constitution have not been fulfilled but are in process of being fulfilled -- that what distinguishes America is the country's constant progress toward fulfilling them:
This union may never be perfect, but generation after generation has shown that it can always be perfected.
In the inaugural address, Obama portrayed our progress toward realizing our ideals as being in midstream, and projected their eventual fulfillment beyond our shores to encompass the world:

And because we have tasted the bitter swill of civil war and segregation and emerged from that dark chapter stronger and more united, we cannot help but believe that the old hatreds shall someday pass; that the lines of tribe shall soon dissolve; that as the world grows smaller, our common humanity shall reveal itself; and that America must play its role in ushering in a new era of peace.
Once again, his core message was hope. Faith. Love. Those three. Ultimately, Obama keeps it simple.

67 Comments

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Totally recommended. I'm not much of a Bible person, but I have been keeping a pretty close eye on Barack these last few years and think you hit the nail right on the head.

It is also why I hope he'll be able to inspire a whole host (no pun intended) of Christians on the right to demand a new set of expectations from their representatives. They may not run out and join the democratic party, but they may very well start holding their republican reps feet to the fire and, failing that, send more progressive, more Christian replacement in the 2010 primaries.

In both cases, America wins and moves into our post partisan renaissance that is a necessary requirement to get to where we need to go as a people.

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Sounds like you find a one party system attractive.
There certainly wasn't any partisanship in the USSR. That's kind of what you've got in mind for us, isn't it?

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I actually advocate for two sane parties vice one that is mostly progressive and another that is clearly off the rails. I have in mind a country that decides on a goal and then debates conservative and liberal means by which to get there.

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I actually advocate for two sane parties vice one that is mostly progressive and another that is clearly off the rails.

Really? I always thought that we had two parties that were clearly off the rails.

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Very true, though the democrats now have a leader that may change that for them. The republicans have yet to find one.

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No, her name is Palin.

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The best Palin could hope for after her performance on the national stage last year is a guest spot on Good Morning, Anchorage or maybe lead car in the Fur Rendezvous parade.

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Er... yeah.

Actually, the person's name is Ron Paul.

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I'd like to see more public debate, less press sensationalism and MSM punditry passing as debate, and more transparency in the Congressional and WH processes which come up with proposals.

You can't debate a non-existent proposal, so basic outlines need to be presented. Competing roposals help frame a debate. Then a national debate could inform Congress or the WH. But we should also examine the frame itself. While two parties may come up with different ways to deal with a problem, given a frame, the choice of frame heavily influences what follows.

The Repos haven't presented a genuine foil in re the "recovery" bill. Brickbats to them. It seems other ideas are highly marginalized if not actually suppressed. So we're kinda stuck with the Obama frame of "a consensus of economists" believe we need to do something like X or all hell will break loose.

Didn't Paulson use that line in Sept? And wasn't he full of himself??

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Obama invited Republicans to participate constructively in the stimulus debate. What they came up with was tax cuts.

Now they're all over the airwaves saying the President wasn't serious about bringing the minority party into the discussion. What a load of garbage.

He was under no obligation to ask for Republican participation. And he went out of his way -- too far out, in my opinion -- to compromise as a gesture of good faith. What he got was "more cowbell." (Someone used this in a thread the other day. I can't remember who. But it was perfect.)

The point of the stimulus bill was job creation. I think any serious proposal that addressed this objective would have gotten a hearing.

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"recovery" not "stimulus".

Recovery involves stimuli AND plain old spending to "replace" private economic activity lost to lack of confidence and deleveraging.

But what I was trying to bemoan without whining was the apparent lack of DEBATE at a national public level. I'd like to see more transparency in the proposal development process for starters even if it would be entirely naive to ask in addition for more public input at earlier stages.

But then, maybe spend spend spend really is a good thing now, I'm entirely too uninformed despite paying a lot of attention for 4 months now. Maybe I just haven't found the right sources, all I'm seeing is NYT and WaPo regurgitations dumbed down to tease the masses. Well, not "all".


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Thanks for the clarification. My error.

I share your desire for more public debate. Unfortunately, the urgency of the moment conspires against it. So does the fact that as a nation, have grown all too comfortable with ceding that debate to others.

I believe Obama is committed to reinvigorating that conversation by engaging citizens at the grassroots level. His campaign was built on it. Organizing for America is its latest manifestation. I hope he can pull it off. I hope as a nation we care enough to make it work.

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I suspect we will see more public debate over these issues as more people become interested in politics and what's going after their vote was cast.

I am not even sure the mechanisms exist to have that public debate, given the structural problems in Congress and in the corporate media. It sounds like they hardly debate these things themselves, except in small committees that then present 1,200 page behemoths that their colleagues are somehow supposed to really understand before casting a vote. If most Congress people don't know those nuts and bolts, setting up a system to let us in on it sounds like a big job to me. That kind of analysis takes months to complete and many more months to implement a solution.

I would like to see a whole lot of things in the coming years, but there is no transparency wand that can erase 230 years organizational dysfunction and give us the level of comfort we need. I am excited by the use of the Internet here at TPM and elsewhere as well as when the political narrative shifts in large part due to the narrative online driving the conversation.

Massive room for improvement, but given where we came from the signs are encouraging.

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In re Jason on "mechanisms" --

Maybe I just don't read enough editorial pages, and editorials, in widely read newspapers. I have this perhaps romantic notion that the 4th estate used to support national public debate, with some papers even appearing to war with each other, editorially. Now it's dumbed down trash talk from Hannity and O'Reilly vs. Maddow and Olberman, with an occasional belated interview with Charlie Rose or some other obscure talk show host. As the MSM has been "democratized" from towering institutions into a plethora of anything-but-news sensationalism outlets competing for a buck, maybe the 4th estate has lost more than it has gained. The "democracy" of the internet is often more about gutter or sewer level engagement than high-minded political debate.

Just blathering...

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Debate online can be as good or as bad as that found in the corporate media. Ditto with the editorial pages. I suspect that it won't be until the needs and desires of the audience changes that the debate will change along with it.

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This audience (and stage crew) member "needs and desires" such change.

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I completely agree with Jason.

Embedded in Obama's speeches and in his call to service is an explicit appeal to conservative Christians to embrace the bedrock principles of Christianity in common pursuit of the American ideal.

Like his faith, his use of scriptural allusion is not fabricated, however. It is the natural product of a deeply religious man who has sought, and found, a common thread that binds all of us together in pursuit of a higher purpose.

Thank you for an outstanding essay. Well worth reading and highly recommended.

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This post is beautiful. The sentiment, the language.

People like me forget the beauty of the language contained in the Bible.

Very fine piece.

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This is an exceptional blog! Moving. Uplifting. Analytically brilliant. I would pair your essay with this moving tribute to Obama by Alice Walker:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/sep/20/uselections2008.barackobama

I urge all who've read this blog. Take the time to read Alice Walker's words. They fit so well with the thesis of this blog.

I cannot praise this blog highly enough!

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4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

TheraP, everytime I am ready to throw religion under the bus, someone comes up with a cite like this.

It is impossible to toss out all wisdom that has been with us for thousands of years.

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That passage was part of our vows, as a recently down-graded Tropical Storm Ernesto raced overhead and the sea raged off the North Carolina coast.

The guy we hired to marry us looked like an ex drill sergeant with a soft voice that cut through the wind. The witnesses we coaxed in off the beach at the last minute fought back tears for a couple of strangers. My lovely bride mouthed the words, as did I, though neither of us had spent much time reading the passage once we selected it for the ceremony from Reverend Joe's website.

A very primal moment that burned a biblical passage into my memory, despite being a very confirmed agnostic.

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You're seeking the middle path. Try Buddhism. (no deity)

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I have looked into Buddhism. They still have "temples" and chanting and stuff. I am not much for joining groups. I am happier making sure my Church of One is living up to its founding ideals. So far, so good. :O)

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Yes Jason, emotion phrased with belief and reason.

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Your insights are very good and important.

Of course, both Obama and our founding principles are informed by the essential and nondogmatic themes and ideas of Christianity. Even the "nonbelievers" amongst the founders revered Biblical ideals and the teachings of Jesus particularly as most plainly seen in Jefferson's Bible. Their reading of the basic religious documents of western civilization were sophisticated and discriminating enough to ignore the dogma and instead they read the Bible looking for the wisdom it held and separated that from the clearly dogmatic, rigid and outdated ideas men had grafted onto the eloquent insights and observations contained therin. It is endlessly ironic to me whenever I hear today's fundamentalists refer to their dogma and rigid theology as "old time" religion when in fact, the liberal Christian approach articulated by Obama is the direct descendant of "the faith of our fathers." It is the fundamentalist mentality that has always been outside the American norm. Most Americans living in the time of the Declaration and the Constitution would be repulsed by the Christian right, it's rigid dogma and it's boorish disrespect for other viewpoints.

It is sad that the inundation of American culture with Christian fundamentalist quackery, particularly through television and radio, has so distorted not only the religious perceptions of Americans but their view of civics, government and citizenship too. Fundamentalism is and always was anathema to the precepts of the American governmental structure and philosophy. Dogmatic religion of all stripes constituted a major roadblock toward civic progress from the beginning. Remember, when we became independent, most of the states had official religions leftover from colonial rule that were thrown off in relatively quick order by the Bill of Rights! Our founding documents are quintessentially documents of the Enlightenment whereas fundamentalism worldwide, but American fundamentalism particularly has always been an agent of counter-Enlightenment.

Fundamentalism and rigidly dogmatic religious beliefs have always been, at best, on the fringe of the American political spectrum and most often outside of it altogether. In the past generation as the bigotry, small-mindedness and stale orthodoxy of Christian fundamentalists has poisoned our politics and our government the traditional viewpoint, as Obama has expressed repeatedly, has receded into the background. The situation has not been helped by the fact that so many Anericans raised in mainstream religious churches of the mainstream have chosen not to provide their own children with a religious education or involve them as they were involved as young people. There is nothing at all wrong with this, but it did have the effect of weakening the mainstream, traditional, Christian perspective at a time simultaneous with the sharp rise of fundamentalist dogmatism. This unfortunate timing has clearly caused America no end of headaches and problems even as we have made some notable moral progress as a society.

The difference between the mainstream, traditional and far less dogmatic (if not nondogmatic) Christian viewpoint and fundamentalism is that it is predisposed to accept changes as they come. In other words, it is essentially open-minded and optimistic where the other viewpoint is closed and pessimistic. It embraces "the other" while dogmatic fundamentalism demands comformity in all ways: in thought and practice in every aspect of life.

The traditional Christian viewpoint has fewer absolutes and more room for questioning and doubt where fundamentalism (relabeled recently as "evangelicals")consist only of absolutes and anything that tends to contradict those frozen, brittle, and inflexible ideas is the work of "the devil". Like the traditional Christian viewpoint, Obama's mind is open where dogma closes the mind of fundamentalists. Obama's traditional viewpoint faces the world with confidence where the dogmatist does so with fearful suspicion. Fundamentalism views the world as a hostile place whereas Christian liberals view the world as an environment of endless possibility that human effort and cooperation can improve.

The traditional American Christian viewpoint is essentially liberal in the traditional sense and by that I mean in the sense that John Stuart Mill would use it. This implies open-mindedness and a spirit of inquiry with an eye constantly pointed toward improvement of the human condition and creating conditions under which human beings might live in an atmosphere of maximum liberty, self-determination, reason, unbiased and unhindered scientific inquiry, respect for the rights of others and where the natural rights of all are mutally respected and protected from the interference of the state or others. This liberalsim also recongizes as a foundational element that human society's organize themselves together for the common good in order to protect all these other ideas and precepts in order to improve the safety, security and prosperity of that society. That organization belongs to the people and is called government.

Within this philosophy the government as an entity has no inherent powers that are not derived from the consent of the governed. All sovereignty lies with the people themselves. Fundamentalist dogmatists can never long abide by this idea without beginning to inject their concept of "God" and God's "will" or "word" into the process and inevitably putting "God" to work inplmenting their own dogmatic beliefs. That fundamentalist proclivity necessarily infringes upon the natural rights and creator-bestowed liberty of the people as a whole.

The joining of liberal political thought with liberal Christian thought (sans dogma and religious tests of any kind) has been a potent and positive influence throughout American history. I think there are many today whose understandably negative view of religion (organized Christian religion especially)causes them to lose sight of this positive contribution. It is understandable because the pervasively negative effect of fundamentalism tends to tar all Christianity with it's deceptive, bellicose and ubiquitous use of the generic label "Christian" as though Christians were some monolithic group when that is as false as their absurd notion that the world was created in seven, 24 hour days.

Obama had excellent liberal Christian instruction as an adult the he tragically was forced to renounce but the lessons remained in tact. Being a good student, and an intelligent and nonfearful intellect, Obama embraced this philosophy as all our great leaders have done. His continued references in this regard are a most welcome and needed instruction to our nation at this point in history.

Our most important, strongest and inspirational Presidents have all shared this non or even anti-dogmatic religious perspective whether Washington, both Adams', Jefferson, Lincoln, Grant, both Roosevelts, Truman, Eisenhower or Kennedy. Indeed, many of them have displayed a downright hostility to dogmatic religious thought and beliefs. Those I've named are not the only ones either. Our "civic religion" has always been closely aligned with this viewpoint without wrecking our civil life with the sectarian religious strife that European nations so long endured or that eat at the soul of so many foreign lands even now. For me, that alone is demonstration of the genius and desirability of it. It balances natural spirituality with pragmatic priorities for ordering society in a way that reduces conflict yet still maintains a focus on the broadest and most important moral values regarding our treatment of human beings.

One need not be a Christian to share the values, optimism, fearlessness, and committment that this liberal Christian viewpoint possesses in common with the liberal political thought that goes hand in hand with it. I think that is part of Obama's message and vitally important. All one need do is to have unshakable but realistic faith in and respect for "the rights of man" as the founders would have put it, for humanity and to believe in the everlasting ability of humans to improve themselves. So in the end it is our belief in eachother that creates harmony among humans and the preservation of room within each of us to find comfort in our religious beliefs or not. It has worked remarkably well for two centuries. Our heritage has provided this for us. That is enough and it is our obligation to pass this on to our posterity unaltered.

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It's interesting to think about Constitutional originalism in light of the "liberal Christian" tradition you outline. The fundamentalist mindset approaches the Constitution with the same rigidity that fundamentalists bring to scriptures.

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Very true!

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I've been thinking a lot about that myself. The latest interpreters of the bible are actually using the bible itself, and the way in which texts reflect upon other texts, for how to interpret texts, as well as how any particular text fits within the whole corpus of the bible. You might call it philosophy of biblical interpretation. And there might be ways in which that method of engaging with a text could be used when "reading" or interpreting the Constitution. Nevertheless, the idea that the founding generation sought the "wisdom" in the bible - rather than "rules and regulations" - and thus, we might consider the "wisdom" in the Constitution as a whole. How one sentence or concept fits within the whole and how the Constitution imparts wisdom, rather than simply "rules and regulations."

Just some musing I've been doing about this.

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Oleeb, I would tell you that you have outdone yourself but you usually outdo all of us.

What a fine essay.

"The joining of liberal political thought with liberal Christian thought (sans dogma and religious tests of any kind) has been a potent and positive influence throughout American history."

This is the point where I discovered that there is a place for religion. We would not have freed the slaves without it. We would have had no meaningful Civil Rights legislation without it.

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I surely can't improve on this, oleeb. It should be its own post, and I have it bookmarked to re-read at my pleasure. Thanks!

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As a person having no intentional beliefs in fairy-tales and fantasy, though one that has from time to time quoted Kirkegaard and Hume, I think your essay rates with those brilliant minds.

While I don't believe my skills of debate are at your level I would argue only the extent and order to which the founding father's were informed by growing up in Christian homes versus being intellectually repelled by that same education and therefore were compelled to protect our government by making it secular.

He who must not be named (Joe Lieberman) said, the constitution protects the freedom of religion, not the freedom from religion.

Setting aside my intellectual dismissal of religion for a moment, it is statements like Joe's that lay at the foundation of my rejection of all things meta-physical, not just ecumenical.

While you, in your essay, you suggest my rejection would be the result of fundamentalism, I continue to maintain it is the irrational that is its cause.

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I wouldn't think your viewpoint a product of fundamentalism. On the contrary. It is the tension created by the application of reason to the high ideals of religion and dogma, orthodoxy, etc... that creates skepticism and doubt which then leads to a rational resolution. I would think the most influential founders would side with religious ideals over religious institutions any day and there is no conflict between those who don't have a religion but that have a sense of morality and those who do. There shouldn't be. After all, if religion conflicts with morality, what use is it? I see no conflict between the basic moral ideals/values of most major religions and moral conduct that springs from any source. I don't think any of the founders would either. That is why "freedom of conscience" was of such high importance to them and why they gave so much time and thought to it.

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"After all, if religion conflicts with morality, what use is it?"

Therein is the core of many my debates with religion professors I had while attending a Jesuit University as a Biology student. As an atheist, I was often singled out and invited to form and present my thoughts with a level of care that other students were not.

Your statement above supplies the same hook I argued in the past. "What use is it?" To me this implies that religion is the catalyst for a "use"; a purpose. Since I can not find it in myself to believe an all powerful omnipotent being exists, it follows that I can not believe anything other than the Gods of human religions are nothing more than a creation of...humans. Therefore, God, the Bible, and all other things religious were created for the purpose of getting others to follow and be subservient to a cause. That is the answer to, "What use is it?".

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Religion is like poetry - if your let the spiritual wash over you. Like poetry, it can't be justified or rationalized. It simply is. And you dwell with it.

Not that I'm trying to convince you. Because I can't.

I respect where you're coming from. Indeed, I respect everyone who sincerely takes a position from the heart.

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Sometimes TheraP you write some clear prose that explains it all. Like poetry, it simply is.

How delightful!!!!

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♪ ♪ ♪ Or like music.... ♪ ♪ ♪

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While I have never found poetry accessible, literature is what keeps me sane. I don't know why this is, my sister did her masters thesis on Haiku. She is the spiritual one, I am the skeptic. We have often joked that we are each a half of a complete person.

My undergraduate education was biology with a focus in molecular genetics. Now, many years later I hope to go back into applied science and spend the rest of my working life involved in wildlife and environmental issues to hopefully contribute to our shared existance. The reason I tell you this is I don't want to leave you the impression that what is commonly spoken of as spirituality, or in my case amazement, belongs entirely to those who are satisfied by answers that spring from omnipotence.

The absolute amazement I felt when learning what was known about how genes are coded in DNA and then expressed such that completely functional proteins are assembled from their constituent amino-acids consistently time after time, and how processing mistakes are recognized and then corrected, completely blew me away. This is only one example of too many to count.

Believers tell me those instances of amazement are a religious experience. I can not accept that as I believe those instances to be entirely understandable and explainable within electro-chemical constraints. We may not know why something is the way it is in the physical realm but, mystical it is not. Additionally, if we are discussing something outside the physical realm then it isn't something real.

You may say, "well...what about an idea? Ideas and emotions aren't real in a tangible sense. My answer is that they are real and explained by electro-chemical reactions within a brain and are the result of a stimulus.

Consequentially, I believe the risk of subservience to be too great to allow myself to accept mystical explanations for that which I do not yet understand.

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I think it tremendously important to look beyond the primitive concept of a human God or God as a human or super human being. I don't think that is very wise.

If you think God is a big grandpa in the clouds then you do believe in fairy tales. Seems to me that anyone who gets into a description of what God is, is already hopelessly off course. Whatever God is, all I know is that I know cannot grasp it. The idea of "omnipotence" is beyond comprehension to begin with isn't it? It is to me I can tell you for sure.

Perhaps a better way to think about the creator is as "the creator" and not as "God" which, as a word is now has so much baggage as to be unrecognizable. The vast power of creation is far too much for my brain to fully understand let alone ominipotence. This is particularly true when you think about how much creation there is even in our incomplete understanding of the magnitude and possibilities of the universe.

So, it seems to me that thinking of God/the creator/the great spirit (whatever you want to call it) in human terms leads one astray. If the creator is thought of not as human but as a far more abstract and unknown quantity then the possibilities immediately expand and become far more complex don't they? The eastern wisdom, I think, points us in this direction.

If the creator is essentially unknown and unknowable all we have to go on is ourselves and what we do understand and can discern using our powers of observation, experience and reason. We can believe that all things have some common origin but what that is, is beyond our knowing. This belief does not require a fairy tale.

This vision of a creator then is not the personal or humanlike entity so often envisioned but something far more mysterious, unknown and beyond our grasp. This would also imply that whatever the creator is, it isn't taking a personal interest in our every move (at least not as this would be traditionally understood).

The illustration often used about the way the creator was envisioned in the time of our nation's founding is of a "God" that winds up a clock, leaves it on the mantle and walks away---disinterested. This puts a very different perspective on the creator than "superhuman" and too puts quite a different spin on the whole religion thing in my mind, leaves the realm of fairy tales, complicates everything and puts far more responsibility on humans and their decisions than leaving it all to the big judge in the sky.

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Yes,it is a use, but more accurately a misuse.

Religion, like anything else can and will be misused by human beings. This was one of the very clear and agreed upon views of most of the founders.

Central to the thinking of those in that age was that power corrupts, but not just political or legal power. Religious power too, is corrupting and this view helped to inform the wisdom of separation of church and state. Interestingly, this view of power's corrupting power also informed views about capitalism during that period which had been plagued by state sanctioned monopolies. Thus, competition was thought to promote a decentralization of economic power which would be beneficial to society. A cruel irony indeed from the perspective of the modern day eh?

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Indeed.

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Remember, when we became independent, most of the states had official religions leftover from colonial rule that were thrown off in relatively quick order by the Bill of Rights!

No, they were not. The states threw them off of their own accord. The Bill of Rights has absolutely nothing to say against the establishment of religion, except by Congress (and by extension the entire Federal government).

The difference between the mainstream, traditional and far less dogmatic (if not nondogmatic) Christian viewpoint and fundamentalism is that it is predisposed to accept changes as they come. In other words, it is essentially open-minded and optimistic where the other viewpoint is closed and pessimistic. It embraces "the other" while dogmatic fundamentalism demands comformity in all ways: in thought and practice in every aspect of life.

It seems to me that what you call the traditional Christian viewpoint is largely humanism dressing itself in the language of Christianity rather than actually being Christianity.

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Rereading your comments, oleeb, I am struck by this difference between fundamentalists and the understanding of the Declaration of Independence.
Fundamentalists, to my mind, are powerfully influenced by the Apostle Paul's writings, which emphasize a hierarchical power structure, where men are authorities over women and the religious elders derive their authority directly from God. Thus there is a sense that one looks to authority figures for guidance and power flows down.

The Declaration of Independence makes it clear that power resides in the people and leaders are authorized by the people to act on their behalf, so long as they act lawfully. This is the opposite of the fundamentalist Christian view.

It seems, then, that the republican party has taken a view of power which is in accord with the fundamentalist view but is not in accord with the Declaration of Independence and the underlying "authorization" by the people of the Constitution and our Republic. You can see this "top down" power structure within the republican party and how well that fits with business.

Honestly, based on what you've laid out here, oleeb, I've now come to the conclusion that Dems and repubs may have very, very different views of what it means to come together as a people. No wonder repubs hate govt - if govt is some entity they view as a top-down power structure, with the all-powerful president and so on. I wouldn't want that kind of government either! It would be like a papacy!

So we may have such fundamentally (no pun intended) different views of our nation's power structure as to be irreconcilable at the moment. If that's the case we sure had better face it. And try to resolve it.

I wonder what you think about this, oleeb. And what others think. It may underlie much of what occurred under bush, and it may be why some fear to seek justice here. Even our views of justice may be very different at this point.

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Thera,DD and Xpost,

I think you guys may be off track though I could be wrong because it has been nearly 20 years since I had to study religion. Therefore, please forgive me if I am wrong and feel free to correct.

Christian fundamentalism branches from the philosophic writings that grew into the reformation, and is a relatively recent phenomenon. ie. John the Baptist, Kierkegaard, Hume, etc. Paul severely predates the reformation and Protestantism and is often the focus of criticism in reformation writings of the time.

If my recollection is even partly correct, this possibly appears to run counter to the idea that Paul informed the Fundamentalists Protestants and then ultimately the Republican party. I believe it is more likely that those in control of their religious sect are apt to make use of the Bible in anyway necessary to obtain a predetermined outcome, just as the Republican party used the fundamentalists as a means to their desired ends.

It appears that Occam's Razor provides a simpler and more believable explanation.

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corrections

Sorry, I was worried that I might do this. Replace Kierkegaard and Hume, enlightenment philosophers, with Martin Luther and John Calvin.

...leading from John the Baptist, not that he was relatively recent

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The origins of today's fundamentalism are deeply connected with Calvin it is true but they take the most severe and dogmatic portions of Calvinism to places Calvin himself would abhor. They view everything in the Bible through an extremely distorted set of filters and cling to all those portions that they believe supports their dogma and simply ignore anything that doesn't.

They took the idea of man's imperfection and innate sinfulness and they've gnawed on that bone ever since in a way Calvin would not have done. How horrified would today's fundamentalist be and how apoplectic would be their denials if they found out that Calvin did not believe the book of Revelation should even be included in the Bible? And that isn't the only Biblical book he believed to be apocryphal. Luther likewise made it clear that he did not think that all the books included in the Bible should be included. How would the Lutherans of the Missouri Synod (extreme fundamentalists) respond to Luther? They have taken ideas and practices of mainstream protestant thought and morphed them into their own perverse versions of "Christianity". In point of fact, there is precious little about a fundamentalist church service that isreminiscent of any traditional Christian service in the western church and there's simply no resemblance at all between fundamentalist services and any of the eastern churches.

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I think that the primary reason fundamentalists are as they are and also why modern Republicans have become what they have become is a result of their attraction to authoritarianism. There's lots of reserch on this relationship between personality and authoritarianism as well as the relationship between personality and political preferences.

It is a very natural step for the personality that finds comfort in authoritarianism to abuse the power of religion as well as that of our constitutional government and twist it to become more authoritarian. John Dean has written an excellent book on this called "Conservatives Without Conscience" that I would recommend to all. He uses some excellent research and goes into some depth about all this.

The meaning of religious texts can be interpreted in different ways by different people. In our day, the meaning of the story and messages in the Bible is so often misinterpreted it is incredible. It's meaning is most frequently and badly distorted by fundamentalists looking for simple answer and with willfull ignorance choosing to interpret allegorical stories whose words and purpose thousands of years ago often bears no relation to what a surface reading of those words would mean today as translated into English. The authoritarian personality mixed with this determined ignorance is a powerful and dangerous combination as we all know.

The very idea that the world might have been created in 7 literal days was never the intended meaning of whoever it was that wrote the Genesis story. It is extraordinarily ironic that the fundamentalists who spend so much time moralizing about the parables of Jesus cannot recognize or understand that parable is the native form of language of the Biblical authors and their time.

But, this interpretation serves the authoritarian and greedy leaders of the fundamentalists. They set up chruches where the founding evangelists whether Falwell, Robertson, Bakker, Tilton, Roberts, Swaggert, Haggard, etc... is his own little sovereign Pope ruling as Pontifex Maximus over his ever expanding market, uh, I mean congregation. The megachurches are all set up in this fasion and typically run as family businesses where the children of the little popes take over the business when Daddy dies as with Falwell and Liberty "University" which should more properly be called Falwell Enterprises. They enrich themselves personally and expand their empires through tv and radio. The larger their empire the more authoritative they become and thus the more appealing they are to their followers who want simple answers that make a complicated world more black and white.

So, where an open-minded reader of the Bible would pretty easily be able to discern the expansive and universal wisdom and truths containted therein from the obviously dogmatic, nonuniversal directives of a primitive society, the close minded reader focuses on those rules and regulations. The open minded seeker of truth sees responsibilities to all humans in we live our lives in relationship to eachother. The close minded authoritarian focuses on their daily habits and their individual compliance with "God's word." The inherent contradictions of the fundamentalist and authoritarian approach make no difference to them because they rationalize or simply ignore all such contradictions that would raise any doubt about their simple, black and white construct.

And finallly, the open-minded reader of the Bible will find that free will provides human beings with the opportunity to serve others in a cause much greater than themselves where the authoritarian fears free will at a basic level and desires a clearly defined set of rules with which to negotiatie the viscissitudes of life. It is difficult for the fundamentalist and authoritarian personality to maintain allegiance to an abstract concept of truth and justice and moral action where in all of God's creatures are of value. They require a hierarchy and a well defined set of simple, unchanging rules that are folowed because of a system of reward and punishment. They believe because it gets them to heaven, not because they love their fellow human beings. They believe because they will get in trouble with the big baddy Daddy figure in the sky if they don't, not because it is right. They believe because the word has been delivered to them in an authoritative way, not because of the merit of the ideas on their own. Similarly, they believe in the Declaration and Constitution in a simplistic, authoritarian manner. They believe in them because they are authoritative and we have "always believed" in them as Americans. They do not believe in them because of their allegiance to the ideas themselves. These people will always exist and the founders knew it well. Much of their genius was in setting up a system where it is most difficult for those types ever to destroy the freedom of the people. Since 2000 they have come perilously close but they did not complete their mission. Now, with our new President, we must restore the liberty and freedom of our people as our fearless founders would were they here. But even though they are no longer here it is important to recognize that they had faith in us, the inheritors of their genius. Their faith was that when times like the past eight years occur, we will restore our system, preserving what is good and useful and improving the rest.

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Our patchwork heritage is a strength, but only for those who wish to control and conquer us.

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It could be a strength for you to use in overcoming your perverse Marxist fascinations.

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Sieg Heil ya'll!

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To think anybody wishing to conquer us would be concerned with you is preposterous.

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If you're a purebred Nazi, then you are an excellent example of the genetic deterioration that results when a gene pool becomes too limited. Please carry on with your excellent experiment.

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Frog,

I can't help but notice your every comment contains some reference to the Nazis.

Few blogs here have any connection to Nazis. Most deal with current political enigmas.

I hope your apparent obsession with Nazis are limited to your participation in this forum and not effecting your personal life.

If you find that to be the case, the best place to start is with a counselor. You can locate them at your local mental health department. It is not in any way shameful to approach these people for help.

When you find a counselor you're comfortable with, be as honest as you can when discussing your issues. As counselors, they probably won't be able to help you directly, but they will recognize your symptoms and direct you to sources of treatment, and hopefully, recovery. Regards, and Good luck!!!

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It's clear that Obama isn't a Jew or Muslim. I'm not so clear on his devotion to Christianity, tho' I suspect his spirituality and devotion are more than Bush's "born again" facade. I think he uses C. because of Wright's good influence on him and because he knows that C. is still the dominant religion demographically in the USA. It speaks quietly to the masses.

I believe he's also informed by other "religions" and suspect that underneath the C. veneer he's a wannabe pragmatist who needs our help to "keep the faith" while defending the Constitution.

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Fine distinction eds, but I feel what you are saying. The New Prez is not going to go on radio or tv and claim to have spoken to God Himself.

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Thank God for that!

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In the movie The Contender, the atheist protagonist Senator (and nominee to replace a VP) says that the US Congress/Capitol is her church.

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I think that that would be the scariest sort of theocrat of them all - someone who worships the government as their God!

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An atheist who is a God worshiper?

I think you try too hard, G.

"cratotheist"

Now I'm trying too hard on this one!

Bureaucrat + theist = cratotheist?

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cratothiest - BRILLIANT!!!

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A cratotheist means someone who worships the government. It was designed as a play on words, with the root terms for theocrat reversed.

An atheist who is a God worshiper?

I think you try too hard, G.

Well, if she doesn't worship anything, why does she go to church? By calling the US Capitol/Congress her "church," she is saying that, in effect, government is to her what God is to religious people.

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No she's not, you're twisting it, G.

"This is my church" is obviously different from "This is my God".

If you want to run a parallel, her Gospel is not a Bible but the Constitution and DoI combined with a rock solid belief in certain principles. Like most analogies and metaphors, this one can be taken too far...

If you haven't seen the movie, I recommend it. Gotta watch carefully, little things add up along the way.

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...and how do suppose that makes those of us, who believe religion to be a form of government, feel every time a politician speaks in an official forum about God? I scares the hell out of me.

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So you're saying that instead of being a theocrat, she was a cratotheist?

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eds - I think you are right on target.

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Thanks, I guess! BTW -- "cratothiest - BRILLIANT!!!"

Typos change meanings. cratothiest and cratotheist would be birds not flocking together. The latter was originally G's term. I produced my own version which seems to be slightly different from his. Yours would be something else entirely, the superlative form of 'cratothy' --

cratothier
cratothiest

!

:-)

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LOL - word!

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". . . as the world grows smaller, our common humanity shall reveal itself."

When I heard him say that during the inauguration speech, I was moved to tears.

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