Much ado about Bacon, or whither trolls?
This morning I found a rather peevish post by artappraiser denouncing the recent troll roasting of Fred Dobbs.
I'm afraid I really must take issue with the following statement:
Meanwhile, what could have been a very good thread for the TPMCafe archive has been ruined; the only links to it may end up being another example of "troll feeding" for some internet forum primer. It's no wonder main contributors in the Book Club tend to talk to each other in posts and seem loathe to jump into the comments.
Now considering those of us that amused ourselves at Freds expense 1.) are not long-time frequent posters, indeed most are fairly recent contributors, and 2.) never encountered a troll anywhere on TPM before, it strikes me as particularly disingenuous and silly to blame the lack of response from "main contributors" on any of us. I'd suggest that the reason for that could be the lack of any contentious debate, but I really wouldn't know. It seems to me the few times I have seen a "main contributor" moved to respond to a comment, it is due to the contentious nature of those comments they are responding to.
As for the food fight that resulted from "feeding the troll" I will agree it's not really up to TPM Cafe standards, but I also wonder if the response had been merely to allow these trolls to make their silly comments without a hard response, that it wouldn't have encouraged more of them to stick around and be disruptive.
Given the nature of these Trolls, (cowardly at best,) it seems to me the proper response is to fight fire with fire and discourage them from sticking around. Most of them prefer environments were they can congregate and reinforce each others nonsense.
There is a case to be made that they are also motivated to "shut down discussion boards" by invading in large numbers and hijacking the conversation. It happened at CNN, CSPAN, Salon, and Atlantic. The former two closed, the latter became pay to play.I'd hate to see that happen here.
So my question to artappraiser, and others here, is what type of strategy do you want to employ here? I'd prefer thoughtful comments to knee-jerk reactions, so please think it over. I'll happily abide by whatever the consensus is.Thanks.
Well Gee.
[[[[[[crickets chirping]]]]]]
<> Maybe 'ol Fred has a point after all.CSPAN junkies visit http://spannerbackup.ipbhost.com
September 17, 2006 11:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe 'ol Fred has a point after all.
Now you're getting it, you stupid cunt. Perhaps less time on the computer and more time pleasuring your old man would be in order for you. Really put that altruistic soul to good use instead of just yapping about how much of a "heart" you have with strangers.
You lib pukes are always the same. You yap about how much you care about strangers but ingnore your own living with you. Who knows what else your old man is doing when you're on line, probably in the bathroom jerking off to gay porn.
Death Before Dhimmitude
September 30, 2006 8:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
There is a case to be made that they are also motivated to "shut down discussion boards" by invading in large numbers and hijacking the conversation.
Why not? Your anti-American, Bush bashing, Israeli hating, Muslim loving bullshit is strengthening our enemy's resolve.
Death Before Dhimmitude
September 30, 2006 11:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
So in Fredspace, there can be no criticism of the traditional leader of a political policy before an election? The only response to Muslims that you seem to have is genocide? Any criticism of policy is unpatriotic?
Gee, where have I heard equivalent rules before?
Picture Fred wandering off, singing Die Fahne Hoch.
--
Howard
*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*
September 30, 2006 12:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Howard, when one's country is at war, such seditious talk is out of the question. Sedition laws should be reimplemented and enforced.
I cannot be like the Nazi party of 1930s Germany, because I am NOT scapegoating an innocent culture like the Jews. Muslims, on the other hand, have threatened the lives of all Jews and Americans, have flown kamikaze missions into buildings killing thousands of innocent people, and have beheaded innocent people on TV. They are not a n inncoent culture. They are a GUILTY culture It has been proven again and again that so-called Muslim "moderates" are not willing to control their own people, so hence, they deserve the same grisly fate as the rest.
This is NOTHING like the Jews of 1930s Europe. The Jews of 1930s Europe were not vicious murdering animals like the Muslims of today.
If you don't think so, PLEASE PROVIDE EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY! Show evidence that the Jews of 1930s Europe were sponsoring a conspiracy to destroy Western nations and members of other religious faiths. The fact is, you can't, Howard, which is why your comparison fails. So you should just STFU because you know your wrong. All your useless book learnin' can't tell you the Truth.
Again, if you people woke up and looked at the world for what is truly is, instead of WHAT YOU HOPE IT COULD BE, there wouldn't be any attacks from me.
I've told you this before, straighten up and think properly and I'll leave you alone.
Death Before Dhimmitude
September 30, 2006 8:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
What war? America is not at war with any country. We do have soldiers fighting but this country is simply not at war with anyone. We are aggresors occupying another country with our military.
October 2, 2006 8:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
My opinion is basically stated here an here on Josh's Cafe Managment Table thread, in response to cscs.
I think this excerpt of my comments there is now proven by the perp coming here to this thread to continue to bait you with personal insults (i.e. "Now you're getting it, you stupid cunt....") because you fed him:
We disagree on how those websites you cite lost quality. I think it happened partly because trollish conversation and baiting was fed by others and that there was no will from the community at large to deny them the attention and framing of debates and gaming they wanted.
As to contributors, look at it from the view of someone like Andrew Bacevich, a guest contributor at TPM Cafe. Will he be proud to link to that thread in the future or will he say to himself "why did I even bother to get involved with this blog forum thing?" Was he so impressed with the quality of discussion on his thread that he will be back of his own accord to participate in commenting in the future? Or did he find a childish sandbox where people do not ignore attempts to derail the conversation?
We have a rating system, and one thing it is still good for is expressing disapproval of comments disrespectful of the original poster by others in the community rating them a zero, rather than feeding the disrespect. One does not encourage higher level participation on a website from people like Mr. Bacevich by "fighting" trolls; instead one is probably chasing them away. While you had "fun" feeding a troll, you may have just produced embarassment for the original poster that spent time writing as a grown-up under his real name, while you have the luxury of a pseudonym to disavow your "play" to anyone you'd care about not seeing it.
I'm sorry you were offended, but we'll just have to agree to disagree, I think you have gone about your concerns in exactly the wrong way, you have been assisting in the "hijacking" of this site by replying to him. For me, you were aiding and abetting in the lowering of the quality of the discourse and increasing the noise level by doing that. He has admitted that that is what he is here to do in his comment here Sept. 30 @ 12:48pm. I'm not really interested in discussing this further because I've seen enough evidence in this case. This is a topic that I do have a bit of experience on, having been a moderator on a forum website for several years, watching the behavior and the results every day. I know "don't feed the troll" works with true trolls, and I believe this is one. There is no solution except zero ratings and not replying without management bans or deletions.
September 30, 2006 1:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
p.s. I believe so strongly that feeding trolls like this hurts the quality of a forum (it's infectious, the whole site starts to get agitated, more quality members get disgusted and go elsewhere, more noise-makers are tempted to sign up and participate) that if it were my website, I would ask members to also zero rate any replies to the troll's comments, no matter what they say. I don't do it here because that request has not been made, and therefore it would cause more reaction that would feed more. But it's the only thing that works absent management attention to the problem.
September 30, 2006 1:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
As the mice voted to bell the cat, you speak of a key consideration here: management involvement. In many cases, I do believe in ignoring an obvious troll on their first appearance.
I have found, however, that responding to a minimally coherent, possibly trollish posts has had the property of bringing a would-be troll into the general community; I can think of several such examples. The present case, I would agree, is hopeless.
I am willing to agree not to feed the obvious trolls, once I have concluded that they are true trolls. Joe Wood, for example, came roaring in like a troll, but, over time, he has made insightful comments, become far less shrill, open to new ideas, and someone I consider something of a friend. When someone who was once a Bush-can-do-no-wrong poster and now makes thoughtful blog comments about it being the Democrats' choice to lose, I see some success.
Again, I would suggest that either more management attention is appropriate, or a certain amount of authority is delegated, such as stopping posting, but not listening, capabilities for a particular user if some quorum of moderators agree. I strongly support the idea of a delay of several days before a new user can post.
If you remember my first coming to the site, and making nothing but what I thought were serious and relevant posts, several people immediately labeled me a troll because I had bothered to put up a substantive bio, which included past Republican experience. As an aside, I might note that while not all potential trolls put up bios, I don't think I've seen anyone who did put up a bio turn up to be a real troll.
Incidentally, I would be delighted if "hide low-rated comments" worked, but it didn't for me with IE and Firefox on MacOS 10.3.9, and now with Firefox and IE on W2K SP4.
--
Howard
*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*
September 30, 2006 1:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
You & Joe Wood weathered the intial label of troll by some and figured out how to adjust your rhetoric or explain yourselves to the satisfaction of those people, and others helped. The system worked in the end. The zeroes you got in the meantime did not kill you. Of course, you know I am strongly on the side of thinking that this site has too strong of an ideological litmus test tinge to the majority community, and that is detrimental. But that has nothing to do with true trolling, as we have here in this instance. Can you not see that he is just gaming, that the ideology doesn't even matter? It does not matter what you say to him, all he wants is to get a rise out of people. Apply Josh's ratings precept of "trying to participate in discussions in good faith." You and Wood eventually showed yourself to be doing so; he is clearly here to disrupt, agitate, anger and inflame, with absolutely no interest shown in adjusting modus operandi--no interest in "communication" at all.
Edit to add: for crying out loud, this is such an easy, blatant case, with more of his comments than not containing personal insult--there is no attempt to even fit in or hide it. He now even mocks, on this thread, workerbee's attempts to be "fair" to him. What more do you need? Sheesh.
September 30, 2006 2:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Even in this case, there was a briefly rational response, which quickly proved to be an aberration. I am more than open to reducing the burden of "proving oneself" if sincere (forgive me, as a one-time chemist, I know litmus has been obsolete for decades). While it has to be implemented by Josh, I find that a "cooling off" or "lurking" period before gaining posting rights is reasonable; I see that even on professional lists where one's reputation is clearly an issue.
Yes, I will admit there is a certain perverse satisfaction as, without the slightest violation of Godwinism (as firsthand from Mike Godwin), to establish amazing parallels of the case in issue with the ideology of the National Socialist German Workers' Party. He is consistent with that ideology, at least.
At the same time, I can think of people that failed an initial ideology test. Some adapted their discussion style, while others started out being reasonable but were damned, even though they were commenting appropriately, with the equivalent of "I'm Brave Sir Robin, and I am a thoughtful conservative, who regards the takeover of the GOP by social and religious bigots to be a travesty."
--
Howard
*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*
September 30, 2006 2:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Howard - give it up regarding the poster in question.
You are not God so don't have to have show endless love and hope for this guy's redemption. You are just a man with intelligence and likely imperfect love for your fellow man. Celebrate humanity and imperfection. Find other more benefical conversations for you and the rest of us!
If you must engage him, create a separate thread that is exclusive to you, him and any others with God amounts of hope for redemption.
Everyone say Amen!
September 30, 2006 3:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good comparison; first, reminds me of the Victorian gents trying to save hookers that weren't interested in being saved.
Second, a troll is not only not interested in being saved, he is not interested in discussion, rather he is interested in playing the traditional role of the devil (it might even be that we have seen some of the dialogue from "The Exorcist" reprinted here on this site lately), to tempt you to display what he thinks are your own worst qualities. Here, it is to display "how liberals act and react" or some such. There is no honest pretention to discussion, none at all.
September 30, 2006 3:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
ArtA - off topic favor
Play moderator for a moment and vote my modified User Help piece back to the Tables. If it helps the new folks asking questions I want them to find the Cliff Notes version in my blog, unless of course they are masochists and want to read the long version.
September 30, 2006 3:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
I can't because I voted on it the first time around, my vote is already registered. You have to get someone new to vote in an edit, and now it looks like you got two votes agin it, it's only got a 3 on it, you have to get 2 new votes now! Boy, there is some smart anti-lobbying system here, maybe Josh should suggest something similar to Congress... :-)
September 30, 2006 4:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
It showed up with 3 votes when I posted the revised version today.
Hey other Moderators who wander by,
vote my revised Table submission out of moderation limbo. Thanks
September 30, 2006 4:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
The farthest thing in the world, in my mind, was redemption. As some of you know, I've made detailed studies of the Nazis' rise to power, and how they operated the Third Reich, on the theory that if there is ever totalitatianism in the US, it will come from that direction. Given that threat, it is well to be aware of what it looked like.
I confess to a certain amazement as someone who trumpeted his Judaism, given the slightest hint, repeatedly responded with language not from the precarious position of a war crimes trial, but from the heights of National Socialist power.
--
Howard
*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*
September 30, 2006 4:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am not asking you to be complicit in totalitarianism. I am suggesting, no asking, that you exercise your individual smarts and leave him be. Do I hear an Amen??
September 30, 2006 4:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
heh. Excellent.
I don't think anyone was thinking they were godlike, but, heck, I was taught to give folks the benefit of the doubt and turn the other cheeck. Still... you're probably right. And you're funny, which is even better.
AMEN!!
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September 30, 2006 9:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
There is the theory that if one strikes you on one cheek, you turn the other. And if that cheek is struck, then the next shot is yours.
[thinks of a sign reputed to be in the Air Force airborne laser lab: "We're not trying to play God,. We just want to borrow his smite button."
--
Howard
*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*
September 30, 2006 9:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
I thought I saw something, too But, as my esteemed grandmother would have said, "What're you gonna do?"
Certainly we both gave it a shot, you more than me, and I certainly respect you for that.
Maybe, we're just optimists?
LOL
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September 30, 2006 9:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Another thing I might try if I were running a political site would be to post something prominently -- maybe below the comment box, so you see it each time you submit -- that said "please don't feed the trolls" or some such, with a link to an explanation.
There's a learning curve to the "don't feed the trolls" thing, or at least there was for me. People who are relatively new to commenting on sites where things can get contentious might not even think of using that approach, at first...
September 30, 2006 2:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your points are all well taken artappraiser ... Although, your actions might not be of giving out "0" troll ratings to long term members, you apparently didn't have a problem popping an "unproductive" without so much as an iota of explanation about a link I provided off site, out of Cafe members view, that I truly feel and personally was quite productive to the foul mouthed puke spewing troll in question.
I guess it's my Navy upbringing...
No biggie though artappraiser. In the future I will attempt to refrain from further speech that you and others may deem unproductive.
~OGD~
September 30, 2006 2:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
:-)
Well, if you absolutely cannot resist sparring or "fighting back" or "bar-room brawling" with a troll or the trollish, which Josh Marshall in his "Cafe Etiquette" and "Acceptable Behavior" posts has made it a point of saying he does not want this website to be about:
the least disruptive way to do it is to invite the troll off-thread to your own blog post away from the main community discussion, which I have seen you in particular do before. In a way, you act as a sort of decoy by doing that; I'm not sure how well it works for the community at large. But my own personal opinion is that one does not "win" anything by debating a troll, all you get is low-quality entertainment. BTW, I believe that the much more sophisticated troll that Josh & I were both addressing in the first link, and which you invited to a sparring match, "mysteriously" disappeared soon after Josh's post.
Edit to add: As to the rating you cite, I see no difference between a troll comment by a long-time member of the community with past good behavior and the comments of a troll as far as the damage it does to the discourse, especially when it is an insult targeted to a contributor using his/her own name. I have done the same in the past to others; example: I remember daniel Greenbaum calling a contributor a liar in caps in a one-liner...I zero'ed that. Lowering of discourse is lowering of discourse, that's what the rating system was created to deal with; it's not a system to award gold stars for ego purposes, it for the community to self-police for noise.
September 30, 2006 3:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's why I took it off site, out of Cafe public view...
September 30, 2006 8:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
The only "puke spewing" I'm reading here are the incessant attacks on Bush and his policies.
Change your message and maybe I'll change, too. It's up to you.
Death Before Dhimmitude
September 30, 2006 8:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
I love your stuff.
Even if you were a squid at one time.
:)
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September 30, 2006 9:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
If management bans and deletions are a possibility, would that be so bad? Individual posts that accrue a threshold level of Troll ratings from trusted members would be removed, and posters who receive a threshold level of Troll ratings would be expelled and their IP address spammed-out from future registrations. There would be issues to resolve, e.g. would responses to expunged posts also be expunged? Probably so, but they could be stored in an archive on the response-posters comment page for a period of time, so that substantive material could be reinserted into the thread if the poster wished to do so. And I did see valuable, insightful material in some of the replies to trolls - especially by workerbee.
The strength of the site is the quality of the posts. TPM needs a strong, effective programmatic response to Trolls that is compatible with the mission of the site in order to maintain site quality This is especially important as election time approaches. I for one would like to see the Troll posts permanently deleted (my Mozilla browser cannot use the suppress- low-rated-posts feature).
September 30, 2006 4:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's been pretty obvious that some members have been banned in the past, most recently shortly after Josh's "Cafe Etiquette" post, for making it "noisier" and more hostile here. Previous to that, when Kate was in charge of the site, I believe only one or two because they were abusing the older Scoop rating system (members could check other member's ratings and watch for that, things such as giving one person a ton of unfair zeroes & report it.)
But now I believe it is a time problem. The only management here is Josh Marshall, and he obviously does not always have time to read much of this site or pay attention to what is happening on it. (I doubt he is reading this thread, for example.)
Your suggestion of management watching for troll rating is probably a good one for him, the software probably allows him to do that. I would think that it would be quick and easy to check whether someone is getting 100's of zeroes and investigate whether it is fair and the person deserves banning. I hope he could get your suggestion somehow. And more importantly, if he did, and decided to use it, announce it to the community so they know he would be doing it.
When he has time, he has not shown any shyness about deletions in public. Early on I remember seeing him delete personal insults; a few weeks ago I noticed a deletion of certain blog posts with people's personal addresses & other sensivite or egregious info., and once a few months ago he admitted he ended deleting a whole Larry Johnson thread when it got a flood of troll comments almost like a denial-of-service attack that he could not keep up with deleting.
It's just a time question, unless or until he gets help on that, we are left with self-policing.
September 30, 2006 5:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Aside from feeding the trolls silence and hoping that at some point Josh will have someone to do some babysitting and/or software to help, those here can Low rate or intervene. When a comment is crude or overly rude it needs attention. Low rating is quick. Given a bit more time sometimes we can walk each other back from resorting to crude and rude to make a point.
September 30, 2006 6:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow. Thanks. But I was kinda getting some aggressions out, too. heh.
I don't know the answer. In this case, I've got to agree with art appraiser and Irish.
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September 30, 2006 9:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Unfortunately, there's no especially long-standing relationship between a user and an IP address. In practice, for this sort of thing, manual moderation is about all that's practical.
There is software, both academic and intelligence, that can look for patterns in word choice, sentence structure, concordance, etc., but they really wouldn't be practical here. I do have a nice surgical procedure for a splenectomy, but one would have to be in its physical presence.
--
Howard
*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*
September 30, 2006 9:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
And when a troll has been ID'd and removed, remove the troll's contribution to rating other posts. I see a self-professed troll has just given a "1" rating to ergoquid's request to take a strong stance toward removing trolls! Unproductive? For whom??
October 1, 2006 8:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oh my. Geez artappraiser, you could have summarized in 4 words:
LOL. All the same, I'm so glad you didn't. When I first joined a year ago, I noticced you right off. I thought, "gee, it would be great to know someone like that." That was my first impression, and I don't know why I decided you were actually an condescending, moralizing, elite. My second impression was obviously wrong. Maybe I got you mixed up with someone else.What can I say? Mea Culpa. I was wrong. I am humbled. When the Dobbs disgraced my little memorial to my grandmother, I realized that no matter how low I was willing to go, that there simply was no "bottom" with him.
All the same, I agree with Howard, and I got to know Howard better, which is very good. I too, have met folks that I thought were trolls, and after some "fun" bashing back and forth, was rewarded by getting to know conservatives I could respect. I thought I saw something in Dobbs. I was wrong. It's a shame, but there it is. I'll refrain from Fred's silly baiting. I actually have better things to do. I'm sure you do too. Thanks for taking the time to reply.
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September 30, 2006 9:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
It should have come to no surprise to you, workerbee, I've said over and over again, fuck with me and I fuck with you.
Besides, I didn't disgrace your grandmother, I attacked you for exploiting your grandmother's death so you could write something on your stupid blog.
And let me let you you in on a little secret .. Howard C. Berkowitz is a moderate to liberal Republican of the old Nelson Rockefeller wing of the party. He's what is known as a paleo-conservative, who is isolationist and hates Israel and Jews.
Death Before Dhimmitude
September 30, 2006 9:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Give me as many zero ratings as you want, losers, you can't silence me or silence my truthful views.
Death Before Dhimmitude
October 1, 2006 10:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
As to contributors, look at it from the view of someone like Andrew Bacevich, a guest contributor at TPM Cafe. Will he be proud to link to that thread in the future or will he say to himself "why did I even bother to get involved with this blog forum thing?"
Who the fuck is Andrew Bacevich that he deserves such special consideration or even a second thought? Fuck him, he's a PhD pinhead who has never worked in the real world beyond institutions. I hope he thinks blogs are a waste of time. I certainly do.
Death Before Dhimmitude
September 30, 2006 9:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
You people just don't get it, do you?
You're too fucking stupid to know that YOU are the pigeons shitting on your own park. People like me are in charge of shooting the pigeons and getting rid of them for good.
Death Before Dhimmitude
September 30, 2006 10:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
We need some concensus around here. I actually gave Freddie another shot in another post. Just to give him the benefit of the doubt. Way more than I should have, I know.
But his "cunt" remark really sums up what he's all about.
He needs to be banned. And everyone else needs to stop responding to him until that's done.
How about this -- we start zeroing out not only Fred Dobbs, but anyone who responds to him.
(Gee, I'm up on on a high horse tonight, no?)
Dissent Protects Democracy.
September 30, 2006 8:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, I've given up on him doing anything except less creative imitations of Julius Streicher. Shunning sounds good to me; if I want to read his sort of ideas, there are always war crimes records.
--
Howard
*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*
September 30, 2006 8:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just remember that for the record, Howard C. Berkowitz, I tried to ignore your expressed anti-Israeli pro-Muslim Jew hating and be civil, but as it turned out, you just couldn't contain yourself and went on the attack ... yet again.
Death Before Dhimmitude
September 30, 2006 10:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
So please, Howard, use that vastly superior intellect of yours and cite any examples where European Jews in the 1930s condemned to death the citizens of sovereign nations, flew kamikaze missions into buildings full of people, or beheaded people on the public airwaves?
Still waiting for those examples, fat man.
Death Before Dhimmitude
October 1, 2006 10:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
Nice Hoss.
LOL
You're awesome.
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September 30, 2006 9:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
My personal impression of horses is that they are large, scaly, carnivorous beasts that breathe fire at both ends. Nevertheless, I must show a certain respect for the French cavalry officer, asked in the thirties why the French did not do away with horse cavalry and mechanize, who responded, "But M'sieur? Were we to go to gasoline propulsion, how would we grow the mushrooms for the officers' mess on their exhaust?"
--
Howard
*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*
September 30, 2006 9:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Are these the same "brave" Frenchmen too cowardly to shoot and kill Muslim youths looting and burning their country last year?
Death Before Dhimmitude
September 30, 2006 10:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Go ahead, Howard, explain to all your "friends" here how the "brave" Frenchmen could sit back and watch their country being ripped to shit by crazed Muslim animals last year?
How many years do you predict it will take for all of Europe to become a Third World extension?
Death Before Dhimmitude
September 30, 2006 10:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
They are very gentle, wonderful creatures. I've noticed that people that care for them are too.
I wish I could afford one for my daughter. She took riding lessons for a while.
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September 30, 2006 10:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Perhaps if you got a real job and stopped sitting on your fat ass yapping to strangers on the internet 24/7, you could buy her one.
Death Before Dhimmitude
October 1, 2006 10:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
Workerbee...
:-)
My daughter grew up with 2 horses--I think they are magnificent creatures. My daughter's horses were absolutely gorgeous animals. She loved riding them. I never did much go for the whole horse thing myself (riding, etc.)--
However, I did enjoy spending time in the evening with them, just leaning over the rail around sunset and "chatting" about my day with the 2 of them. They seemed almost to understand me at times--occasionally neighing or knickering, as if in agreement over something I'd said. Too funny.
They each had their own very distinct personalities--and both were quite likable and very intelligent.
October 2, 2006 3:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
But his "cunt" remark really sums up what he's all about.
What wrong with the word "cunt"? Men in England call each other "cunts" all the time. I thought you lib pukes were free speech advocates. You have no problem calling our President a chimp, a Nazi, or evil, do you?
But hey, you can't call some dopey no-count blogger a "cunt."
What a twisted set of standards you hold. Your website MUST fail, because it's supported by faulty and illogical standards, one for one type of person, another set for another.
I actually gave Freddie another shot in another post. Just to give him the benefit of the doubt. Way more than I should have, I know.
Some shot, cscs, you were too stupid to have known that the Allies DID meet or exceed German brutality by bombing the shit out of Berlin and Dresden in early 1945.
You were also too stupid to understand the term "Cold War" and that we did in fact engage the Soviets on a tertiary level as their technology was used against us in Korea and Indochina.
Did you ever hear of the MiG fighter? I wonder.
Death Before Dhimmitude
September 30, 2006 10:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
nascardaughter, ogd, and hcberkowitz, three little cowards with no clue.
Refute anything I've written on this subject. Go on, if you can.
Death Before Dhimmitude
September 30, 2006 10:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
The blog's token "conservative,", hcberkowitz, has the courage to give me a zero rating post but can't muster the courage to answer my posts for all to read.
Death Before Dhimmitude
September 30, 2006 10:33 PM | Reply | Permalink