The Birther Argument: Does it make any sense?
I've been trying very hard to understand the birther argument with no success. Apparently they think that if you are born outside of the US that means that you are not a citizen. Why else would they go to such lengths to fabricate a fake birth certificate from Kenya? I and my wife are US citizens and live part of the year in Mexico. My son (a US citizen) lives in Mexico and is married to a Mexican citizen. They had a baby this past year who was born here in Mexico to one US citizen and one Mexican citizen. They obtained a US passport for him without his ever setting foot in the US. He has actually only been there once for a few weeks. The US consulate here in Mexico accepted him as a US citizen with no problems. Why do the birthers think that Obama who was born to a US citizen would somehow not be a US citizen because as they maintain he was born in Kenya? He would be a US citizen if he was born on the moon. He has one undisputed parent who is a US citizen therefore he is a US citizen. Even John McCain was born outside the US. Is he not a US citizen? Am I missing something here or are these people completely ignorant?
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It makes no sense. They are both ignorant and racist, as I suspect ancestry that did not involve Africa (or Latin America or Asia, were that the case) would not prompt such childish tantrums.
November 13, 2009 7:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually they are not ignorant nor racist. They are simply people who are trying to find any reason to say why Obama shouldn't be President. He has so little experience in so many areas that it pains people to see him in the White House. But that doesn't mean they are ignorant or racist.
November 13, 2009 11:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes it does. Rationalize it all you want. You are wrong and you know it.
November 14, 2009 1:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
No I don't "know it". I know people who are clinging to the hope that he cannot be President. But it's not because they are ignorant or racist. It's because they hate his policies.
November 14, 2009 10:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
Right, then, Sparky - you want to st out for us, in full verifiable detail, the level of experience that qualifies you to spout the hatred-filled drivel you do with such annoying regularity?
Didn't think so.
November 14, 2009 10:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
What "hatred filled drivel"??
November 14, 2009 10:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
And sorry but I didn't know what you meant by "st out for us"...
November 14, 2009 10:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
In other words they want to overturn the first fair Presidential election we have had in 10 years -- in the name of "patriotism?"
I hated Bush's policies. I wanted him impeached, which is a legal way to remove a President from office, and which I think he should have been subjected to. Making up stuff about where someone was born in order to overturn an election which went the way you didn't want is sedition - there is nothing legitimate, or legal about it.
November 14, 2009 12:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
So you say "Making up stuff about... someone ... in order to overturn an election which went the way you didn't want is sedition"
Yet you claim you wanted Bush impeached and removed from office (despite the lack of a crime being committed), which is NOT legal.
Seems like you accuse yourself of sedition.
November 14, 2009 6:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
I believe that starting a war over false pretenses is an impeachable offense. Obviously you don't care about that.
November 14, 2009 6:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, and "clinging to the hope that he cannot be President?" He IS President!
November 14, 2009 12:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes C'ville he is. Remember when I told you that I was going to stop responding to your comments because of your lack of civility? Calling me an asshole? Well I am sticking to that. But I still love you and have a nice day!
November 14, 2009 2:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
But you keep responding anyway! Ha!
November 14, 2009 6:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not really. I just remind you that I choose not to converse with people who don't show me the same respect that I try to show others. Have a nice night.
November 14, 2009 11:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
While I certainly don't want to defend the birthers in any way, my understanding is that they have one valid argument. Apparently at the time of Obama's birth (1961), the law stated that a child born abroad to an American parent was only a citizen if the parent "was physically present in the United States or its outlying possessions for a period or periods totaling not less than ten years, at least five of which were after attaining the age of fourteen years," which did not apply to Obama's mom, since she was 18 when he was born, and thus had not been in the U.S. for five years after turning 14. Thus Obama would not have been a "natural born citizen" had he been born in Kenya. See this post by UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh. I'm not sure if this is the definitive interpretation.
But of course he was born in Hawaii. And the birthers also make various false claims about the Constitution and laws.
November 13, 2009 10:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
The key word is "apparently". And most birtherism doesn't rely on that law, which doesn't apply in any case.
I'm going to dig around some but while the poster is waiting he might want to read a post I stuck up when this shit was just getting started, which is to say in Dec 2008, right after the election.
Nationality Act of 1940: "Wingnuttia is ablaze"
There are three basic strains of Birtherism with variations and cross-infections:
1) Obama was born in Kenya
2) Obama's mother's marriage to Soetoro and relocation to Indonesia abrogated Obama's citizenshop
3) Although is by birth a citizen, he is not a Natural Born Citizen (lots of variations here)
All of them are fatally flawed they generally have some plausible line of legal precedents that seemingly back them up. But the clear problem in each case is that people are desperately trying to start from a conclusion: that Obama was not lawfully ever a President and that it is the responsibility of the Birther's to find a reason why. Which is why they slide from one reason to another when cornered.
For example we had a sequence: Obama refuses to release Birth Certificate. When said certificate was shown to be online, the claim shifted to say it was obviously forged because of A, B or C. When Open Secrets showed that it was not forged and clearly met the test of A, B and C the claim shifted to 'It is not a Birth Certificate, it is a Certificate of Live Birth' (you will hear the term 'Long form' in connection with this). Ultimately that line of argumentation largely died out leaving people like Orly pushing the actual Kenyan birth backed up by this argument about his mother being less than five years in residence in the U.S. prior to the date of birth after turning 14.
All the arguments are bogus but the support ranges from bat-shit delusional (Orly Taitz) to standard conspiracy theory level where the supporting documentation is piled high and people can talk in mind-numbing detail about trajectories and rates of fire (Grassy Knoll).
In Dec 2008 there were reports that the Supreme Court had taken up the case of D'Onofrio v Wells. It hadn't but it gave hope to Birthers (and sparked my post linked above). After that hope was dashed remaining Birthers lashed themselves to an ever changing series of arguments, and at each stage insisting that they "just wanted to see" something or other, only after being shown it going on to "just want to see" something else. Any claims that these people are just looking for the truth pretty much belied by their compulsive clinging to a conclusion no matter what you show them.
3)
November 14, 2009 10:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks Bruce for that interesting pointer. I couldn't wade through all of the comments but it makes clear that there is an issue there which seems to have been a function of his mother's age at the time of giving birth and the non-retroactive nature of the 1986 revision of the law. A tempest in a tea pot to be sure but interesting.
November 14, 2009 11:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
Interestingly if you follow the Volokh link you will find an addendum called "Correction About Natural-Born Citizen Law"
In 1986 Congress changed the law to eliminate the ten year/five year after age of 14 to five year in U.S./2 year after age of 14 which Volokh originally said applied to Obama whether he was born in or out of the U.S. In his correction he kind of bends over backwards in arguing that this STILL might not apply to Obama, but only if he was in fact born outside the U.S.
I think he is applying an overly legalistic line, but then he is a lawyer and that is what they are paid to do. In any case the intent of Congress in 1986 was clearly that people in Obama's situation should not be bound by that older 10/5 language.
So that pretty much takes care of the Kenyan variation. The Indonesian variation is more interesting in that there really is an authentic piece of paper saying that 'Barry Soetoro' is by religion 'Islam' and of nationality 'Indonesian', which as you can imagine has some birthers 'starbursting' themselves. But there are plausible reasons why Obama's step-father would have protected his young step-son by describing him as such on a school identity card at a time when Indonesia was going through a particularly violent period, it just wouldn't have been safe to have an officially American Christian little boy running around. But whatever actually motivated anybody back then it was all made moot by the Nationality Act of 1940 and cemented by the followup Act of 1951 each of whom clearly apply to Obama.
None of which will satisfy birthers. There are dark rumors afloat relative to some accusations that Obama has sealed his H.S. and College records. Why this would matter even if true is a little unclear, but these people operate under the principle "Where there is smoke, there must be fire" even while they are the ones blowing the smoke.
Lets just say that none of this is being driven by some dispassionate desire 'just' to get to the truth.
November 14, 2009 11:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
Most interesting was the quote from the Constitution:
"No person except a natural born citizen, or a citizen of the United States, at the time of the adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the office of President;..."
I'm not a lawyer, but I can't figure out how to read that except that no one now alive is eligible to be President of the United States. I wonder why the birthers haven't jumped on that one. ;-)
November 14, 2009 4:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Opps, they have used that one, but not the way I interpreted it. I missed the fact that the last phrase refers to the "citizen of the US clause and not the preceding clause: "Natural born citizen". It's the Natural Born citizen clause that the birthers have been touting claiming that anyone born outside the US is not a natural born citizen and therefore ineligible. So according to this we did not have an eligible candidate in the last Presidential election. File this under: "beating a dead horse".
November 14, 2009 4:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why are we still talking about this? Maybe we can move on to 2009 topics?
November 13, 2009 11:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
MCB: Could you just answer my question? Saying that people are doing this because Obama has no experience in a number of areas does not explain why when Bush was President and had no experience in a number of areas, especially foreign policy, these same people had no problem and weren't running around looking for his birth certificate. What's the difference and why do they think that proving he was born in Kenya has any bearing on whether he is a US citizen(my original question)?
November 14, 2009 10:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
There is an argument that there is an important distinction between being a 'citizen by birth' and a 'Natural Born Citizen' as specified in the Constitution. At its most extreme the claim is that in order to meet the test of the latter both the parents have to be citizens and the baby has to be born in one of the fifty states. This is why the Senate actually went to the trouble to pass a resolution affirming the John McCain, the son and grandson of United States Admirals, was in fact a Natural Born Citizen even though he was born in the Canal Zone. An issue that NEVER would have met the light of day without the brewing birtherism over Obama prior to the election.
Since the McCain case undercut the fullest version of the Natural Born Citizen argument birthers are pursuing various other variations arguing the 'two US citizen' and 'Dunham residency after 14' ones. But ultimately it is a conclusion desperately chasing an argument.
(My internet connection failed mid-post, and I am sending this via a different device. Hope it doesn't end up doubling.)
November 14, 2009 11:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
http://www.urban75.org/info/conspiraloons.html
November 14, 2009 1:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is very nice. I bookmarked this. From Kennedy's assassination to the mooners (the idiots that think we never landed on the moon) to the birthers.
Its not perfect, but as a ten pronged test, this does very nicely.
Thank you for this.
November 14, 2009 3:43 PM | Reply | Permalink