How Loyal is the Loyal Opposition?
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BENEATH THE SPIN • ERIC L. WATTREE How Loyal is the Loyal Opposition? From this point on I pledge to stop using the terms "conservative" and "Republican" interchangeably. I'm beginning to realize there's a big difference between the two. Conservatives are loyal and well-meaning Americans of good faith who just happen not to share my opinion of what's in the best interest of America. On the other hand, it has become clear that the Republican Party has crossed the line between the loyal opposition, and subversion. Am I indulging in radical hyperbole? I don't think so. The American Heritage Dictionary defines subversive as "Intended or serving to subvert, especially intended to overthrow or undermine an established government" (emphasis added). While I don't mean to imply that the GOP is involved in a plot to overthrow our government-at least, not at this point--it is certainly clear that they are deeply involved in a conspiracy to undermine it. Forces within the GOP like Rush Limbaugh and Tom Delay have literally stated that they want President Obama to fail in his attempt to rescue America from our current economic crisis. One can sugarcoat that anyway that one likes, but the bottom line is, if President Obama fails, the American people are going to suffer greatly. So what these GOP leaders are actually saying is that they're hoping for additional, and severe hardship, to be visited upon the American people. And considering the fact that America is in the throes of a nation-threatening economic crisis (due to a very large extent to GOP governance), I'd say they've crossed the line, from simple irresponsibility, to what could literally be considered subversive. One might argue that I'm dealing in semantics if it were not for the fact that the GOP has taken its intent beyond mere words to blatant, and clearly defined obstructionism. They're using every legislative device at their command to sabotage the president's rescue plan. While they claim that their concern is about "pork barrel" spending, their claim is transparently disingenuous. First, the amount of spending that the GOP is jumping up and down about is less than 1% of the rescue plan. So in essence, they're taking the position that one should allow a baby to starve to death because the local market is charging two pennies more for baby food than the store across town. Their rationale? It's a matter of principle. Oh, really? The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities estimated that making President Bush's tax cuts to the rich permanent, as virtually every Republican wanted to do, "Without offsets, making the tax cuts permanent would increase the deficit and thereby add to the national debt. The interest payments [alone] needed to service this higher level of debt would amount to about $700 billion over the next ten years. Thus, the total cost of making these tax cuts permanent, including the related interest costs, would be $4.4 trillion over the ten-year period" (emphasis added). In addition, much of the pork in the rescue plan was placed in the stimulus package during the Republican watch, before President Obama even took the oath of office. And beyond that, many of the very Republicans who are complaining, are some of the most excessive spenders. Republican minority leader, Sen. Mitch McConnell complains, for example, that the rescue plan spends more "than the previous administration spent in seven years on the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and Hurricane Katrina combined." But he fails to point out that he's responsible for more than $75 million of the pork that he's complaining about. According to Taxpayers for Common Sense, McConnell is responsible for a $950,000 earmark to fund a bikeway for a Western Kentucky University, and $2.9 million to purchase buses for LexTran, and $1.6 million for a forage animal research laboratory. And for a politician who's so concerned about leaving debt on the backs of our children, it didn't seem to bother him when he landed on CREW's 20 Most Corrupt Members of Congress List for, according to CREW, "accepted donations to his campaign and political action committees in direct exchange for earmarking federal funds to clients of Bates Capitol," a lobbying firm owned by McConnell's former chief of staff, Gordon Hunter Bates. And now we have Republican governors threatening to refuse the stimulus money. Governors Rick Perry (Tex), Mark Sanford (SC), Bobby Jindal (LA), C.L. "Butch" Otter (ID), and of course, Sarah Palin (AL)--all Republican, and all having presidential ambitions, thus, they all have a vested interest in President Obama's failure, and more than willing to let their people suffer to bring about that end. That in itself should demonstrate how we ended up in our current fix. Not just ask yourself-do you think that Obama would allow people to starve, election or not, or under any conditions? Of course not-that's the difference between a statesman and demagogues. Even Ray Charles could see through the motives of these people-and as we all know, Ray's both blind, and deceased. When was the last time anyone ever heard of any governor telling the federal government that they didn't want more money? You show me a Republican who turns down money, and I'll show you some kind of conspiracy. Therefore, all of these Republican governors are willing to starve the people of their state for personal gain. In the middle of the worse--not just a national, but world--economic crisis of the last eighty years, they're telling the federal government, "No, I don't want you to help the people of my state. Let their unemployment lapse. We have food in the governor's mansion, and I'm sure the people will survive-somehow." In essence, "Let them eat cake." Those are not conservatives. They're self-serving, ruthless, and quite literally, anarchists. The American Heritage Dictionary defines Anarchism as, "The theory or doctrine that all forms of government are oppressive and undesirable and should be abolished"-- or as neo-con, Grover Norquist said, "small enough to drown in a bathtub." No, these are not conservatives, and when we as progressives paint conservatives with the same broad brush as we do people who are blatantly un-American, we do both the nation, and ourselves a gross disservice. We play right into the hands of these demagogues, because their very survival depend on keeping the nation divided. They've prospered for years by keeping us racially divided, but that didn't work in the last election, so now they're desperate-and angry. So it's on to plan B-"By any means necessary." What has kept America a strong and viable nation over the years is that in times of crisis we've managed to come together--not as Black or white, Jew or Gentile, liberal or conservative-- but as Americans, and that's the way we've got to address this crisis. These demagogues have a philosophy-"Never let any crisis go to waste." What they mean by that is never miss an opportunity to manipulate the people. But we should take that philosophy and turn it on its head to mean, never allow the hardship of a crisis to go for naught, without making us a more insightful, steadfast, and unified America. We've got to recognize that our inherent diversity is our strength. It makes us more, rather than less. Just as we need the progressive voices of Martin Luther King, Caesar Chavez, and Malcolm X to make us a more just and compassionate nation, we also need the conservative voices of a Gen. macArthur and Colin Powell to make us strong. It's called balance. But what we don't need are divisive voices like Rush Limbaugh's. What he represents is called, self-destruction.
Eric L. Wattree A moderate is one who embraces truth over ideology, and reason over conflict.
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Eric, you've laid out a case I totally agree with. I'm just going to underscore the central points. The republican party is engaging in:
March 19, 2009 2:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well put - and recommended.
March 19, 2009 2:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
very good blog eric, this is only the second blog of yours I've read but I have to say you are really good.
March 19, 2009 5:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Amen, highly rec'd and pass the cornbread. You have placed eloquent prose to my clumsy ramblings over the months and I could not agree with you more. Thank you for these words. I'll passed them on to others, with your permission.
March 19, 2009 7:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
With very few exceptions the Republicans in Congress are either dumb or prejudiced or uniformed or mean-spirited or selfish or some combination of the aforementioned negative traits.
March 19, 2009 8:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
The thing that strikes me most vividly about the "hoping the present administration fails" message is how weirdly confident it is. As advertisement copy, it goes something like this:
We can afford to have our government fail to salvage the global economy because we have a secret supply of bootstraps that we can dispense when the whole thing collapses and burns from the excess fuel brought to the scene in the mistaken belief that such efforts would bring energy back to failed markets. So buy something right now before the inflation hits! Surf Katrina! Come to Papa and give us a hug.
March 19, 2009 9:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
I want Obama to fail too. Because he economic plan is disastrous for our country. I want our country to succeed. Which means we must fix his massive spending bill and not run up huge deficits of a magnitude we've never seen since before World War 2
March 19, 2009 9:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
We need deficit spending to get us out of this mess. Read Keynes.
March 19, 2009 10:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've read it. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with it. I've also read Hayek, have you?
March 20, 2009 6:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm confused. Salma Hayek is an economist?
March 20, 2009 12:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Very funny. Try Friedrich Hayek
March 20, 2009 9:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
.
Whaaaaaa . . . .
Try Friedrich?
Over Salma?
You seriously need to get out more often.
~OGD~
April 5, 2009 2:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
What's wrong with Friedrich Hayek? Someone brought up reading eynes and I mentioned Hayek. Not a big deal
April 5, 2009 8:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
Because he economic plan is disastrous for our country.
So what do you know that not even the conservative Harvard economist, Martin Feldstein, knows?
He believes that not only was this stimulus necessary, but there needs to be a second one. Furthermore, he doesn't think tax cuts are the answer, either.
There is just no end to the defections from your side, MCB.
March 20, 2009 3:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oh please. There are plenty of people who are saying that the budget deficit is too big, especially when viewed as a % of GDP. I will not pick one economist because I"m not trying to get into an argument between Feldstein and whoever I pick.
March 20, 2009 6:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
Reagan ran way higher "deficits" than what Obama is proposing, given the relative size of the economy and their respective budgets, and for items that delivered zero long-term return on investment. In fact, the Soviet Union was failing under its own failed ideology when Reagan began cutting tax rates, slashing common sense regulations and increasing spending on defense to obscene levels.
Reagan, like Clinton, was the happy beneficiary of historical events way beyond his direct control and had begun long before each took office.
All we can do, given the complete lack of fiscal responsibility under both parties for at least the last 30 years, is invest in renewable energy development, health care reform and education. Failure to fix those three critical issues will ensure we never transition to a 21st Century mindset.
This is all Monopoly money at this point. If we make the right investments at the foundational levels of our society, then our GDP grows exponentially and the money we spent pays for itself. This is pretty basic economic theory. Our investments are being made over generations, yet will pay off in the short term, making those future generations even better positioned to take advantage of opportunities in their time.
What I fail to see in all the Dittohead denunciations of Obama's plans is anything resembling innovative ideas that deliver the same end goals from a right-leaning framework. Where is the "conservative" plan to build a sustainable future for America and the world? Where are the "conservative" leaders with a half a clue about our party's roots? We have obligations to ourselves and our grandchildren that not a single "conservative" seems to understand.
All I hear is the Reagan and Rapture Right nonsense about slashing taxes for God and Country. Oh, and don't forget the enormous amount of defense spending we need to fight the terrorists. What we really need is a better brand of republican because that playbook has been failing for the last thirty years and to keep doing the same thing will kill this nation for good, in the same way it has already killed much of the middle class.
Come on, Bill. Rooting for Obama to fail is not only ridiculous given republican criticism of the democratic party for not supporting George Junior, but also fails to outline solutions to fix the failures the neoconservative brand of republicanism has inflicted on America these last three decades. By all indications, the Reagan Revolution was a huge failure, so perhaps it is time to look a little further back for inspiration as how to transform into a 21st Century party that can actually help move the country forward.
It is long past time republicans learned what being conservative is really all about. The last real conservative to lead the party was Ike, perhaps Nixon when his meds were working.
Wattree is right on with this blog.
March 20, 2009 8:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
With Jason I question his posts for dissent.
But this one I agree with one hundred percent.
Happy Spring Y'All!
March 20, 2009 12:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Go Jason!!! :-{)>
March 20, 2009 1:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't know what math you're doing, but under Obama the deficit will be approximately 12% of GDP.
That is double the previous post-war record of approximately 6% under Reagan.
Here's an AP story.
http://www.ohio.com/news/nation/40344887.html
I would have cited the WSJ or Heritage but you wouldn't have liked those sources
March 20, 2009 8:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
The 12% number under Obama is based on pessimistic projections that lack context. Reagan's numbers are actual and got us exactly nothing in return over the long run. I would suspect Obama to come down somewhere in the middle, perhaps as high as 8 or ten percent.
As I said, though, you are looking at the equation without the multipliers and exponents in place. A new energy grid, world-class education and a functioning health care system is a much better return on investment than making a bunch of rich people richer and building an unaccountable defense industrial complex.
The blessings of this country will flow to a much larger group of people under Barack, meaning our economy will grow far beyond what the Tax Cut & Spend crowd have ever delivered.
Isn't that the business of government?
March 21, 2009 10:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
How did Reagan run higher deficits? Like you said, he was around 6% of GDP and Obama will be higher than that.
I would like to share your optimism that the money will generate good returns. But those multipliers and exponents that you cite are still yet to be seen. We already spend lots and lots of dollars on healthcare and education. Spending more won't all of a sudden make them "world-class".
March 21, 2009 5:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's not about spending more or less, but spending smarter. The deficit is only one data point among many others.
As a percentage of GDP, we have never invested nearly as much money in sustainable energy, smart regulatory enforcement and education as we have in defense. We spend more than the next 45 countries combined. That is not sustainable and delivers zero return.
A healthy, well-educated population will lead to those exponents and multipliers in due course in all kinds of areas.
Optimism is all we have left.
March 22, 2009 5:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
I still don't see how you can say with a straight face that Obama's deficit is smaller than Reagan's. And today's economy is still much larger than when Reagan was in office in the 1980s.
I agree that it's spending smarter versus more or less. We spend plenty today on education. We're spending more per student than we ever have. But it's not yielding good results. We shouldn't just throw money at the problem.
And I can't disagree more with your "zero return" on defense spending. That's just a silly point. Plus if you compare the current defense spending as a % of GDP to other periods (WW2, Korea and Vietnam eras) we're spending much less on defense than historically.
And spending on Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid dwarfs our defense commitment. And yes we spend far more than all those other countries, but like it or not we bear a much great burden than those other countries do.
March 22, 2009 5:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dude, I never said Obama's deficit would be lower or higher, just that trying to determine what it will actually be based on pessimistic projections is a fool's game.
Defense spending, in terms of delivering the most good to the most people, has been a horrendous waste of both blood and treasure. I don't know how you could argue anything else with a straight face. The wider implications for American society as a whole when we continue to pour money down the drain and foreign policy backlash are just two of a plethora of reasons why our priorities as a nation are screwed.
Once again, it isn't the amount we spend, it is how we spend it and on what. It is how we set the metrics for that investment and what we expect in return. I am tired of "conservatives" who keep letting sub-performance somehow equal brilliance. We have much better examples to look to than Saint Ronnie of Simi Valley.
The true father of the party is a good place to start. I am sure Abe would have had words for the old Neocon Cowboy.
March 22, 2009 5:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
You said that "Reagan ran higher deficits than what Obama is proposing".
I don't see how that is a true statement. Reagan was around 6% of GDP and Obama will be around 8-10% according to your own predictions.
March 22, 2009 5:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
You disputed the claim and I allowed that the projections you cite may mean higher deficits on Obama's watch, but that the deficit metric isn't necessarily the most important one. I was in on the conversation too.
March 22, 2009 6:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
The projections that "I cite". Try the budget deficit that Obama cites. You also said that it's best to look at it as a % of GDP. So you're really talking in circles.
March 22, 2009 9:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am not talking in circles. You aren't listening to me.
As a percentage of GDP, which will grow as a result of smart investments in our people and facilities, Obama's deficits will be lower than Reagan over the length of his entire term and by his administration's measure, they will seek to lower it by fifty percent. Though I think it is unlikely, I think it is doable given the amount of languishing productive muscle we have in this country right now.
His plans actually begin to rollback some of the damage that neoconservative ideology, economic terrorism really, has caused the country's middle class. You can't stand here on day sixty-whatever and judge anything. There has not been enough time to implement plans nor judge results. We have more than thirty years of Reaganomics to judge the destruction it is has wrought, which has been profound.
By any measure of a politician in my lifetime, Obama is finally talking common sense with regards to how much things actually cost and what we need to spend to pull our asses out of the fire that the GOP has been throwing gas on for the last four decades.
You can't neglect the real work of government for three decades and not expect consequences. You can't allow every industry and every individual to externalize their costs on to society without paying the bill at some point. The check came to the table and all we have is a credit card, but that doesn't mean we can Dine and Dash.
Why are you so afraid of changing your expectations? It baffles me why many republicans act like battered wives when it comes to defending the actions of cowards and idiots.
March 23, 2009 8:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
You can talk about projections all you want and how much it will come down, but the CBO's estimate for 2009 (ie this year) is 13% of GDP. Reagan was never close to this number in any of his years. No president has since WW2.
March 23, 2009 9:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him take a bath. You are so focused on a single number to the exclusion of all other numbers based on 60 days worth of "projections" that aren't realistic.
Here is Saint Ronnie's performance, which led directly to the environment we have today. Can't dismiss Cato so easily as The Nation or some other "liberal" source. Reagan was the master of Tax Cut and Spend. He increased the size of the federal government exponentially by dramatically increasing the size of not only our deficits, but our long-term debt as well.
Come on, Bill, at least make an intellectually sound argument that isn't circular in nature. I have yet to disagree that Obama MAY run record deficits, just as you have to yet to explain how that is different from any other president, despite the "not since World War II" talking point.
March 24, 2009 8:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
My point is not circular in nature. And I am not fixated on one number. And the number I've been talking about is not some far in the future projection. I'm talking about this year, 2009, where the deficit will be north of 12% of GDP. No administration has tried to spend that kind of money, not Reagan, Clinton, Kennedy or anybody else in recent memory.
The number I am most fixated on is actually the sum of a lot of different numbers: $3,600,000,000,000. That's a very big number. That's a very very big and scary number. Much bigger than any president (including Ronald Reagan).
In the October debates with McCain, Obama pledged a "net spending cut". What did he mean by that?
Just to prove that I'm not focused on a single number I'll give you some more:
1. Bush expanded the federal budget by a historic $700bn through 2008. Obama will add another $1 trillion to that.
2. Obama plans to cut the deficit by 2013 but the deficit will quadruple in 2009 and cutting it in half still leaves a deficit twice as high as under Bush
3. Obama projects to take the total public debt and double it over the next 10 years. Bush presided over a $2.5 trillion increase in public debt through 2008. Obama will add another $5 trillion. Public debt as a % of GDP will will be much higher than it ever was under Reagan, Clinton or Bush. It's projected to get to 65-70% versus 40% in the 1980s
That's enough numbers. Just didn't want you to think that I am focused on just one number.
And these numbers assume that the healthcare "downpayment" won't be expanded and the stimulus provisions will expire. Yikes.
March 24, 2009 9:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Again, you are focused on total spending independent of the expected return on investment. It is a circular argument based on a logical fallacy that all spending is the same.
Bush and Reagan and the rest of the neoconservative icons spent our money on shit and got shit in return. Obama is being forced to spend our way out of this mess just like FDR was forced to do the same by Hoover. In fact, as I have contended about Obama, FDR didn't really spend enough. It wasn't until World War II came along that the economy really started to hum.
It's not about public spending. It is about what are we getting for that expenditure. Richer rich people is not a return on investment. A better educated public who can compete in a global economy is. A world-class health care system that doesn't hamstring our business community is another great investment. A 21st century energy grid is a third. These are investments that haven't been made by the government or business and are in large part responsible for our current plight as a nation.
The last real republican president said it best.
March 25, 2009 8:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
Of course I am focused on total spending because it's a "ginormous" number to steal a phrase from Adam Sandler. If Bush and Reagan spent our money on shit, then there must be lots in the budget we can cut. But instead Obama is doubling the budget from what Bush did.
I have no idea how to quantify the expected return. I don't know if Obama will improve education or not. But it seems odd that he needs to spend this much. If Bush and Reagan spent money on crap, then Obama's budget doesn't need to be bigger than theirs. He can cut all of their old spending out of the budget and redirect those dollars to what he wants. But I don't see any reason why the budget has to be so much bigger than any other President's.
March 25, 2009 9:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Because it isn't as simple as stopping spending on one thing and spending it another. Many of those earlier spending "priorities" are locked in for years and were done despite our actual needs.
I guess we will continue to approach it from two different angles, because the way I see it, if business isn't going to innovate and invest in this country's future, then the government is going to have to.
We've seen how leaving that in the hands of business worked out, which wasn't at all.
March 26, 2009 4:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
But how can you be so sure that Obama's budget isn't completely inflated and won't get inferior returns on the investment?
And as far as "business failing us" I'm not sure what you mean. Just because the banking sector is in crisis doesn't mean that "business" hasn't invested in the country's future. You apparently like to make gross generalizations.
March 26, 2009 9:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Business, as an institution, as failed us across many sectors. Many more than have been beneficial to society. Watch the film The Corporation and then tell me how great the corporate world has been at upholding their obligations. It isn't a gross generalization to suggest that a great many things are broken in the way we conduct our affairs as a nation.
March 27, 2009 6:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Gross generalizations. And overly dramatic
March 27, 2009 7:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Blinders on.
March 28, 2009 12:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
No such thing. This whole thread started because you made a ridiculous statement that Reagan ran higher deficits than what Obama is proposing. That my friend is blinders to think that Obama's budget isn't too big
March 28, 2009 2:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Plus, I will not watch anything that has Michael Moore as a spokesman. I sat through Fahrenheit 9/11 and will never watch any other trash that has his name associated with it.
March 28, 2009 3:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Word.
March 28, 2009 4:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
"So should we be looking for more Republicans in general to commit more sedition and treason now?"
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/eds/2009/03/sedition-and-treason-the-new-t.php
March 19, 2009 11:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
You made a particularly good point on the difference between conservatives and Republicans. I think John Dean has also tried to make that clear. So it's somewhat unfortunate that the Republicans tactics and actions have been tagged as 'movement conservatism', when the more accurate label is 'movement Republicanism'.
When the conservatives started shaping their philosophy back in the 50s and 60s, they realized that they do better when there is an enemy, such as Communism and the USSR. It wasn't until Reagan came along that Republicans realized the enemy could also include the opposition.
March 20, 2009 2:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
As a note, I agree with you that neo-cons are a huge problem. But, please do not insult anarchism by comparing them to that.
Successful anarchism means having cooperative society or societies without government. It involves sharing and respect for each other. Government is not needed because it is run by people who are like us- the only difference being that they have power and money they don't deserve.
Another thing that is important to note is that democrats, republicans, liberals, and neo-cons all have a lot of willingness to starve people. Both democrats and republicans wage war, give bailouts, etc.
If you have any more questions about anarchism and what it is, many of them may be answered here: http://www.infoshop.org/faq/index.html
March 20, 2009 9:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
Anarchy has various forms. The famed anarchist Bakunin didn't have much to say about cooperative societies.
March 20, 2009 10:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
While I do agree with most of your post, Wattree, I'm not so sure about the distinction between conservatives and Republicans. Nearly thirty years ago, Reagan Republicans made an unholy alliance with the Moral Majority in order to win and hold the White House. But now those social conservatives and Christianists have taken control of the Republican party, driving out or shouting down the fiscal (i.e. traditional Goldwater) conservatives and moderates to the point where, in my head, anyway, it is more difficult than ever to separate the two.
March 20, 2009 1:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Then you didn't watch the film, as Michael Moore had nothing to do with producing The Corporation, beyond having been interviewed along with many others. Ironic that you take exception to Moore's harmless hyperbole that leaves the underlying truth uncorrupted but don't hold the right equally accountable.
March 28, 2009 4:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
I did watch the movie. I didn't say he produced it. Some wacky Canadians did. But he is interviewed for it. Anyone that uses him as a spokesperson is an idiot. Nothing Michael Moore does is "harmless".
Why don't you go back to the drawing board and try to figure out exactly how Obama's deficits are smaller than Reagan's. If you can do that I bet Mr. Moore will find a spot for you in his next film
March 28, 2009 4:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dismissive and combative. Again. If you came away from that movie having learned nothing and with no new understanding of some fundamentally flawed parts of our society, then you really are an automaton with no clear grasp of reality.
Reagan's budgets delivered zero return. Obama is making investments in our future prosperity.
There isn't even a apples to apples comparison that can be made about how Reagan bankrupted this country through trickle down theories that do not work and how Obama sees the priorities of governing being to make society work as well as it can for the most amount of people. Breaking government to prove it can't work isn't smart governance.
Modern republican political theories, as pursued by Saint Ronnie and the lesser GOP deities since 1980, have just about destroyed this country. Much like they did a century ago, when democrats pursued reckless growth along side the republican leadership (much like today) and a true conservative progressive ran against the trusts of powerful men with no boundaries or accountability.
Perhaps it is you who needs to go back to the drawing board in order to figure out why these people you venerate have done nothing but piss in the face of the average American citizen for decades.
March 29, 2009 11:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
Wow. "Automaton" is a good one. Definitely an SAT word. I never said our society is perfect, it has flaws. But fundamentally flawed is a pretty gross generalization.
Very presumptuous of you to say that I "venerate" these people. I haven't used the words Saint or deity to describe any of them. I am simply comparing the sizes of their budgets. And it's impossible to prove that his budget delivered "zero return"
Reagan did not bankrupt this country nor did he break the government. The average American citizen today is better off than they were in the late 1970's.
March 29, 2009 11:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
The average American citizen works more than one job to make ends meet when in the late 1960s they only had one. The average American family needs both mom and dad to work, where they used to only need a single income. Many average Americans are lucky if they can get a job at all these days.
Not sure what America you live in, but it is certainly not average by any definition I would recognize.
Our society is fundamentally flawed in critical areas. We don't regulate industry properly. Our food is killing us. Our medical system is killing us. Our environment is getting more polluted in more ways than ever before. That is courtesy of Reagan and Daddy Bush and George Junior and a democratic Congress that rarely lives up to its marketing spiel. You don't have to use the word venerate to give the impression of marching in lockstep with ideas that have proved ill-conceived and illogical. It doesn't take the word saint when you continue to promote policies that have proved lacking in common sense or common good.
Simply comparing the size of budgets is looking at our complex issues one-dimensionally. It is intellectually dishonest at best. It is not impossible to prove that massive defense spending doesn't provide the return on government spending that we truly need. It's why most governments around the world don't waste as much of their budget on defense as we do. We must shift of spending priorities and it may take a few years of spending massive amounts of money on things that have been neglected for decades while we armed ourselves to the teeth.
That truth is, once again, self evident.
March 29, 2009 12:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
The truth in how you see it is self-evident. Families today work two jobs but they also have a lot more than the average family did 20 or 30 years ago. Air conditioning, bigger homes, multiple cars per household, nicer kitchens, etc. I think if people only worked one job then maybe the standard of living would go back to where it was in the 1970's. But it's hard to say that they'd be worse off. And it's not fair to look at the high unemployment we have right now and ignore the low unemployment we had during the 1990's and most of this decade.
And you make it sound as if pre-Obama we only spent money on defense. This country has for years spent around 5-10% of GDP on defense. That was true before Reagan and after Reagan. During Korea we were over 10%. Vietnam came close to 10%. Reagan was in that range. And so was Clinton and the Bush'es. You make it sound like Reagan was some outlier with defense spending and that's just not true.
There's been lots of regulation in various industries. I don't see where your lack of regulation has killed industries. Healthcare companies are finding new drugs to fight cancer, telecom companies are providing more information through internet connectivity, utility companies are making infrastructure that's more efficient, etc.
You can look at the glass as half empty and I will look at it as half full. I never said the world is perfect but
March 29, 2009 2:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Reagan started the trend and it continued under president after president since then. That equal trillions of dollars wasted over the last thirty years while other investments went away, like a world-class education that actually meant you could read when you left high school.
It is not a glass half-full argument, which is kind of my point.
Drug companies need to spend billions finding cures for cancer because our genetically modified diet and huge, gluttonous appetites are killing us. Lack of regulation has allowed companies to externalize all of their short-sighted practices and has led to monopolies that deliver very little additional value for the enormous increases in what we pay for those services. Your measure of what Americans have gained for doubling and tripling the time spent at work is dubious at best. Prosperity financed by massive debt isn't real prosperity except for a small handful at the top.
Our infrastructure isn't more efficient and it has certainly not seen much improvement, energy being just one of many place we are failing. Did you miss the massive blackout in the eastern corridor last year? The bridges falling in Minnesota? Water main breaks all over the place?
I am plenty optimistic, generally speaking, but having that optimism rewarded requires looking at reality the way it is, rather than the way I have been told to see it.
March 30, 2009 8:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
If Reagan started a trend how do you reconcile that defense spending prior to Reagan (as a % of GDP) was consistent with the spending done under Reagan?
March 30, 2009 8:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wrong.
March 31, 2009 6:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Rather than post a link to an incredibly long post with lots of different issues, why not just respond to my question with some original thoughts of your own? How did Reagan start a trend if many administrations before him spent a similar amount of GDP on defense?
March 31, 2009 9:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Read the report. The numbers are very black and white. Cato is a conservative think tank. Your claim that Reagan spent the same amount as previous administrations is wrong, which is what the link was meant to convey.
April 1, 2009 9:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
I read the article but I didn't see where they said what you're referring to. Maybe you could paraphrase their argument for me or cite the specific part you're referring to.
April 1, 2009 8:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's the data that I meant to include in my prior post.
http://www.truthandpolitics.org/military-relative-size.php
It's pretty clear from the data that Reagan didn't take defense spending to obscene levels like you suggest. It's in line with administrations before him and after him
April 1, 2009 8:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Based on the link you provided, I will agree that if the analysis was done properly it appears that Reagan wasn't any worse as far as the public books are concerned. I still suspect his Cold War tactics left much of the true defense spending no where near OBM.
I guess my main criticism (and that of the Cato study) was the deficit spending that was driven by trickle down ideology that never produced the results it promised. That trend has continued with the federal debt growing ever more substantial under the management of both parties.
So, I suppose in this instance we can both be right as far as the available information can determine.
April 2, 2009 9:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
You just spout things like "spending on defense to obscene levels" without having any of the facts.
And that Cato article was written in 1982. Only two years into his administration. I'd give it more credit if it was backward looking as opposed to forward looking.
You're not right but you'll continue to imagine it so. You just spout hyperbole like "much of the true defense spending no where near OBM". It's nice to say things like that without any proof.
If I said things like that you'd hang me to dry. I could say things like "well hey, Bush kept us safe after 9/11". I can imagine what you're response to that would be
Quit while you're behind.
April 2, 2009 10:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey, Partisan Pete, you have talking points and hero worship. That's it.
Reagan increased the power and influence of the defense industry to obscene levels. He ran the deficit to obscene levels. He started the trend of spending ourselves into oblivion. The neoconservative nitwits who you allowed to take over a once proud party are ideologically bankrupt. We have the historical record to prove it.
You should read some books not penned by Bill Kristol.
April 3, 2009 7:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's not taking points. When you don't have a good answer you throw around defense mechanisms like "talking points".
Defense did not get to "obscene levels". If you still think so please show me some data that supports your arguments.
And how did the deficit get to obscene levels? We've already talked about this and shown the data that his budget was a smaller percentage of GDP than what Obama's is this year.
fyi - I've never read a book written by Bill Kristol.
April 3, 2009 7:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Pot meet kettle. It is the nature of your debating style - all ideology with little facts broadly applied to any situation. It smacks of Kristol and the other neocon stooges that have dominated my party for far too long.
April 3, 2009 8:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
This whole thing started because of your mistaken ideals about Reagan's defense spending. I showed you data which supports my belief that defense spending under his administration wasn't "obscene" like you suggest. There's no ideology there, it's just the basic data. I've also referenced the basic budget data for Obama in 2009. It's basic numbers.
April 3, 2009 9:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Word.
April 4, 2009 9:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agreed that you were right, indeed admitted I was wrong, as far as what on-the-books defense spending there is, but stipulated that single data point is only a part of the picture and much of the Cold War spending under Reagan never got added to DoD's budget tally.
Pulling numbers out of context of the larger strategic and tactical discussion and then using them to making ideologically-driven criticisms fails to move the conversation forward. It is intellectually dishonest at best and insidious at worst, because it appears "reasonable" and is anything but.
The last thirty years of failed financial policies by both parties is self evident unless one resides in that narrow top twenty percent of wage earners who can't seem to understand the rest of America actually stresses the fuck out between paychecks.
Both parties, but most notably the republican party, have used tax-cut chainsaws and increased spending as a way to enslave whole generations of Americans for decades to come.
It's basic numbers.
April 4, 2009 9:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Much of the Cold War spending under Reagan never got added to Dod's budget tally".
How would you define "much"? Your Cato article cited (as far as I could find) "$7.5bn is being allocated to programs outside of the DoD that are part of our interventionist foreign policy".
OK, so Reagan's "real" defense budget instead of being roughly $225 billion as "reported" was really $232.5 bn if you use the Cato adjustment.
Based on that the defense budget amount I was using was understated by a couple percent. I doubt that's what you meant when you used the term "much".
Those numbers are not out of context - those are the defense spending numbers. It's from the OMB, not somebody with an agenda.
You haven't shown me any numbers to say that Reagan's defense spending was obscene.
I won't even touch your "thirty years of failed financial policies" talking point because it is so broad.
April 4, 2009 11:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
You are hopeless in your man-love of a mediocre president.
You seem to believe that nearly every dime Reagan spent on "defense" was accounted for (despite Iran Contra and other misadventures) so that pretty much means we have nothing to discuss on that issue. You said most people are doing great today, more, in fact, than in the 1970s and don't provide a lick of evidence to back it up.
You can't even look at a historical record that is well-documented and come to common sense conclusions, so what good will numbers do? You can't see how Trickle Down, Tax Cut & Spend fiscal policies decimated the middle class in this country, so what good will numbers showing that massive decline in standards do?
I am not here to do you homework for you.
April 6, 2009 10:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well you got somethin goin here.
"Even Ray Charles could see through the motives of these people-and as we all know, Ray's both blind, and deceased. When was the last time anyone ever heard of any governor telling the federal government that they didn't want more money? You show me a Republican who turns down money, and I'll show you some kind of conspiracy.'
I hereby award you the Dayly Line of the Day Award for April 5 for this here TPMC site given to all of you from all of me.
THIS IS A FUNNY LINE.HA
April 6, 2009 1:27 PM | Reply | Permalink