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DAILY SCIENCE FIX - TIME - How accurate is an atomic clock?


How accurate is an atomic clock...?  Is it accurate enough...?

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Ok, get this:

How an Atomic Clock Works (Theory)

Electron Energy

The atom can be pictured as a mini solar system, with the heavy nucleus at the centre surrounded by electrons in a variety of different orbits.

The orbits correspond to energy levels, and electrons can only move between levels when they absorb or release just the right amount of energy.

This energy is absorbed or released in the form of electromagnetic radiation, the frequency of which depends on the difference in energy between the two levels.

This transition is the source of the term "quantum jump", quantum referring to the tiny but precise amount of energy needed to allow the electron to jump to a different level.

By measuring the frequency of the electromagnetic radiation, like counting the number of pendulum swings on a pendulum, we can measure the passage of time

So what is a second?  Currently this is the exact definition:

Since 1967, the International System of Units (SI) has defined the second as the duration of 9,192,631,770 cycles of radiation corresponding to the transition between two energy levels of the ground state of the caesium-133 atom.

In other words a caesium atom occilates more than 9 trillion times a second and we can measure that exactly.  That boggles the mind and it is by no means the fastest thing in the universe.  Plus, it never changes.  In theory at least, a million years into the future and in another galaxy, a caesium atom should occilate exactly the same amount of times.  Ok, back to the clocks.   How accurate are these clocks?

By tossing caesium clouds upwards over the course of a day and averaging the resulting frequency, the most accurate caesium-fountain clocks, the NIST-F1 clock in Boulder and similar devices at the Reference Systems for Time and Space (SYRTE) lab of the Paris Observatory in France, can now keep time with an accuracy of 1 second in around 80 million years

You'd think that'd be enough for scientists, but they are developing ever more accurate clocks.

With caesium, that is about the best that can be achieved. But caesium is by no means the fastest atomic oscillator. It was chosen as a matter of convenience: it was easy to excite using microwaves, and its oscillation produced a signal of the right frequency to be fed into the counters used in existing microelectronic circuits. Other atoms have transitions 100,000 times quicker, and so might make more precise clocks

...in March 2008, NIST compared a single-ion mercury transition with a transition in trapped aluminium atoms, obtaining accuracies of just 5 parts in 1017 - about 1 second in 650 million years (Science, vol 319, p 1808). Caesium's 53-year reign as king of the clocks was over.

As clocks get more accurate strange things start to occur. You see, Einstiens theory of general relativity (the best we have to describe how space, time & gravity interact) tells us that:

a clock will tick faster by 1 second in 1018 for every centimetre it is raised in Earth's gravitational field.  

So if we get clocks any more accurate that they are now...

the time it told would be different according to how far up the wall it was fixed.

But lets one up that; maybe there is no time at all:

The trouble with time started a century ago, when Einstein's special and general theories of relativity demolished the idea of time as a universal constant. One consequence is that the past, present, and future are not absolutes. Einstein's theories also opened a rift in physics because the rules of general relativity (which describe gravity and the large-scale structure of the cosmos) seem incompatible with those of quantum physics (which govern the realm of the tiny). Some four decades ago, the renowned physicist John Wheeler, then at Princeton, and the late Bryce DeWitt, then at the University of North Carolina, developed an extraordinary equation that provides a possible framework for unifying relativity and quantum mechanics. But the Wheeler-­DeWitt equation has always been controversial, in part because it adds yet another, even more baffling twist to our understanding of time.

"One finds that time just disappears from the Wheeler-DeWitt equation," says Carlo Rovelli, a physicist at the University of the Mediterranean in Marseille, France. "It is an issue that many theorists have puzzled about. It may be that the best way to think about quantum reality is to give up the notion of time--that the fundamental description of the universe must be timeless."

No one has yet succeeded in using the Wheeler-DeWitt equation to integrate quantum theory with general relativity. Nevertheless, a sizable minority of physicists, Rovelli included, believe that any successful merger of the two great masterpieces of 20th-century physics will inevitably describe a universe in which, ultimately, there is no time.

No time like the present, I always say.

Stay Tuned...

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These days I side with those who argue against ultimate Truth in math. For example, if the math is time-reversible, it does necessitate reality being that way. Similarly, although many have tried, as in Huy Price's "Archimedes' Point", I do not see the necessity for the future and past to have a static existence as merely a spatial dimension of sorts. That a normal dimension exists does not require objects to extend infinitely into it.

I think the Bekenstein/Susskind work that argues space can only hold information density equal to what can be presented on a lower-dimensional surface is much more interesting. The idea stems from testing how much information can be squeezed into a volume of space before causing a black hole. Turns out that quantity can be presented in a mathematically equivalent way on the two-dimensional surface enclosing that volume.

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I think the concept that in quantum mechanics that time doesnt exist is intriguing. It almost like time doesnt exist at quantum speeds until we introduce time to make a measurement. Its a little boggling.

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Some versions do include time, such as Schrodinger. But the non-wave equations that list events in sequence are the timeless versions, I think. There is still ordering, it's not what Einstein said Time served to prevent, everything happening at once.

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Here's an interesting definition of time which I once read. Time is the symbolic representation of any motion or dynamic action in the universe against three-dimensional space. In other words, time is an illusion, an abstract construction and notion of human beings, and whose only purpose is to enable our measurement of dynamic actions occurring in the universe. So, if all motion and dynamic action ceased in the universe time would not exist. Time does not exist without dynamic activity in the universe because time is not a relevant concept on its own.

The above definition of time is implicit in basic relationships involving time measurement.
For example: The velocity of a particle of matter or burst of EM radiation (the dynamic action) across some given distance (the three-dimensional space) determines how much time (the abstract symbol relating the two) has elapsed. The dynamic action and the space both are concrete creations of nature, while the time is merely an abstract creation of men.

I've always liked this definition for it's simplicity, bordering on appearing obvious once you've thought on it for a few moments.

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Well Newton, I mean, certain shadows tell us when its plantin' time.

I mean the 'rock clocks' like Stonehenge were pretty accurate as far as telling the ancients when the best time would be to sacrifice a virgin.

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I'd like to sacrifice a few virgins myself ;)

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Accuracy and stability are different.

When they first flew clocks around the world to test relativity, the clocks drifted so much they had to select the best one of several and then adjust the final results based on its predicted drift.

Time, the passage of time, and a measurement of time or the passage of time, would all be different.

We often think of events taking place in time, but there is another point of view, that the passage of time is simply a result of a whole lot of stochastically unfolding actions which unfold generally in a way which increases entropy. Thus... the arrow of time as a local vector rather than a global component (spacetime).

Much of physics can be cast in time-independent fashion to some small extent.


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A bit more, on clocks:

"In other words a caesium atom occilates more than 9 trillion times a second and we can measure that exactly. That boggles the mind and it is by no means the fastest thing in the universe. Plus, it never changes."

First, the clocks are driven, run by microwaves just like a wind-up clock is driven by a spring. The cesium atoms have a natural frequency of emission, but that can be affected by various factors which must be closely controlled - as an ensemble they are not perfect infinite-Q tuning forks. Second, other external factors such as temperature, and as you note, gravity, can affect the clock.

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A photon is generated by my LDC screen, travels 30 centimeters to my eye, and is absorbed by my retina.

In my frame of reference, it takes the photon about 1 nanosecond to travel the distance.

The photon is moving at the speed of light. According to relatavistic time dilation, a clock moving at the speed of light should be slowed down to zero. Therefore, in the photon's frame of reference no time passed.

Did the photon exist?

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Can you please tell me how to move a clock at the speed of light? I might be interested in making some money off the idea...

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No, seriously, define what the word 'exists' means at the speed of light. If there were no sentient beings in the Universe, would anything 'exist'? Prove it.

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Photons move at the speed of light, and they exist in the sense that they have measurable properties. For example, you can count them using a photomultiplier tube or an avalanche photodiode connected to suitable circuity.

And it is experimentally established that clocks slow down as their velocity increases. For example, particles such as muons decay less rapidly if they are moving at a high velocity relative to the observer's frame of reference.

That anything exists cannot be proved. It is a working assumption, which works well. It does not depend on the presence of a sentient being, in particular humans. Most astronomical objects are viewed by observing electromagnetic waves that they emitted long before there were humans. Most of the subjects of geology and paleontology existed before there were humans. And the assumption that the universe exists and behaves according to the laws of science works for automated scientific instruments, which are so far not sentient.

If a tree falls in the forest, but there is no one there, does it make a sound? Set up your laptop to control your electric chain saw and audio recorder. At a later, randomly chosen time, you will be able to display the spectrum of the air pressure waves caused by the fall of the tree. No ears need be present.

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I would quibble as to whether muons are clocks. No question that they appear to "live" longer the faster they go, in good agreement with Special Relativity. But are they truly clock-like?

An alternative hypothesis for muon decay: Accelerated muons have more energy and so it takes them longer to lose the excess energy to the point where they can decay normally.

What does it mean to ask if the photon exists?

We could say it existed for us if we detect it. Or are you suggesting that photons are not factual, but only actual, and thus they don't exist but only occur? That is, they are time-like, not space-like...

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I'm not sure that you answered my question. Here is another one. Tell me how much energy is needed to accelerate 1 nanogram of carbon to the speed of light.

The fact that you can measure properties of light from a relative state of rest says nothing about accelerating a clock to the speed of light. Everything you have mentioned is human model making. These models are all described in mathematics or in words. At the very least something is lost in translation. What exists? What is exist? Does a thing have to have boundaries to exist? Does it have to be finite? Who defines these boundaries? These are all abstract musings of homo sapiens. None of it has any meaning apart from its relation to homo sapiens. You act as if you are speaking of objective reality. You aren't. All of your models are symbolic cognitive maps. The map is not the territory.The territory has no boundaries and no events.

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"Tell me how much energy is needed to accelerate 1 nanogram of carbon to the speed of light."

The minimum needed would be greater than mc2 (sorry, comments do not support sup tags). In practice it would be a lot more than 2x that since accelerators are generally not the least bit efficient. Also, you'd have to hold the nanogram together as it was accelerated, not an easy task.

Your assertion that the territory has no boundaries is of course nothing more than a statement of your own models and limits, your own symbolic cognitive map if not your own ignorance.


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Well, that's one way to look at it. But just because you can built a house of playing card doesn't mean you can move into it. The Universe is a manifestation of interdependent relationships that are decomposed only in the realms of human consciousness. In other words, any of the 'boundaries' you claim are to be found exclusively in the domain of the human imagination and human activity. Take the human out of the equation and what are you left with? And again, how are you going to hold the nanogram of carbon together as you accelerate it to the speed of light, and what will its mass be when it is 99.999999999999999999999999999% of the speed of light? Listening to observations of others regarding projections of ignorance is often amusing.

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It's not amusing to me to read your prose here.

"The Universe is a manifestation of interdependent relationships that are decomposed only in the realms of human consciousness. In other words, any of the 'boundaries' you claim are to be found exclusively in the domain of the human imagination and human activity."

That is only true if the Universe is limited to the manifest. Again you simply short-circuit the story and then pretend to have said something. The point of Reason is to attempt to understand beyond the obvious.

While it is true that human empirical knowledge comes from human existence (experience and understanding) and thus relies to some extent on human activity and perception, it's also clear that human imagination transcends real perception while human suppositions can transcend even imagination.

That humans can make boundaries such as political geographic boundaries which don't exist in the material world, this does not argue that no real world boundaries can exist. So you have a long way to go to rule out boundaries independent of human activity and imagination.


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Ok, so you're not an existentialist. Hope that works out for you.

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That's a rude remark in response to my efforts.

Existentialism, like most all Isms, is best understood as a critical tool. I can use it or not, usually not. Your ad hominem only confirms the earlier diagnosis of your ignorance or folly.

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Rudeness is in the eye of the beholder... Projection also is a psychological process...

Existentialism is opposed to any doctrine that views man as the manifestation of an absolute or of an infinite substance. It is thus opposed to most forms of Idealism, such as those that stress Consciousness, Spirit, Reason, Idea, or Oversoul. Secondly, it is opposed to any doctrine that sees in man some given and complete reality that must be resolved into its elements in order to be known or contemplated. It is thus opposed to any form of objectivism or scientism since these stress the crass reality of external fact. Thirdly, Existentialism is opposed to any form of necessitarianism; for existence is constituted by possibilities from among which man may choose and through which he can project himself. And, finally, with respect to the fourth point, Existentialism is opposed to any solipsism (holding that I alone exist) or any Epistemological Idealism (holding that the objects of knowledge are mental), because existence, which is the relationship with other beings, always extends beyond itself, toward the being of these entities; it is, so to speak, transcendence.

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No, the use of fallacy that way is objectively rude, it's not a matter of mere personal preference.

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Im not sure why the question is does the photon exist? isnt the better question, how did the photon move at all?

And the answer is most likely Relativity is breaking down in that hypothetical since clearly the photon moved.

And Diogenes Jr. -- that way lies solopism. Are you cool with that?

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If Relativity breaks down, is the result absolute or just more relativity?

What breaks down are immature understandings of the physics and metaphysics involved.

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What breaks down are immature understandings of the physics and metaphysics involved.

Dare I say we agree?

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Einstein forbid!

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What I am cool with is approaching authentic existence. Solipsism is a category of abstraction. I prefer suchness.

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exists? What is exist? Does a thing have to have boundaries to exist? Does it have to be finite? Who defines these boundaries? These are all abstract musings of homo sapiens. None of it has any meaning apart from its relation to homo sapiens.

How is that NOT solopism? Im not busting on you, but how do you get to "suchness" with such challenges on as-objective-as-it-gets criteria.

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Solipsism is the philosophical idea that one's own mind is all that exists. Solipsism is an epistemological or ontological position that knowledge of anything outside the mind is unjustified. The external world and other minds cannot be known and might not exist.

The fact that we are exchanging messages disproves the essential proposition of solipsism. You don't have to get to suchness--it gets to you.

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You assume it is a fact that you are exchanging real messages. In a solipsistic framework you'd be talking to unreal entities in effect created by yourself. Talking to yourself is not "exchanging messages" between two independent individuals.


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Your ability to construct extrapolated theoretical models and move into them really knows no bounds, does it? Do you honestly believe your argument is well constructed enough to be persuasive, or, like the peacock, are you just spreading your fan?

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What argument, yours? I pointed out a flaw in your "argument". That does not require an argument on my part generally, even though I fleshed out my correction for the foolish or ignorant reader.

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I don't accept your analysis as valid. You are emitting more heat than light. Since my original question was not answered, I will address it here and it is my last word on the subject.

The amount of energy required to accelerate a nanogram of carbon to the speed of light is infinite. The answer is in the Lorentz Transforms that govern relativistic translations:

m = m0/[sqrt(1-[v^2/c^2])] where m is the resulting mass from accelerating an initial mass, m0, to velocity v. As v -> c. the denominator approaches 0 and the mass approaches infinity. Strictly speaking, at v=c the equation is undefined (division by zero), but as v approaches c, the left hand side of the equation clearly approaches infinity, and there is no conceivable system capable of accelerating any bit of mass to speed c. Why then can photons travel at the speed of light? Because they are massless bosons, i.e. the Lorentzians do not apply and no laws of nature are broken. It therefore makes no sense to ask whether the photon exists at the speed of light. They're mutually inclusive.

The Lorentzian for time tranformation (from the stationary point of view) is T = T0/[sqrt(1-[v^2/c^2])], showing that the perception from a fixed observer of the time required to accelerate a mass to c approaches infinity, or conversely, the time from the POV of the moving observer goes to zero.

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You're lost. This subthread isn't about carbon, it's about your comment about solipsism. Maybe you misposted, in which case I will note that my answer re nanograms was correct and that you apparently thought you knew the answer you wanted to hear when you asked, Jr.

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How do you know you are exchanging messages with someone else? Or that you are not living in a mental version of the matrix and all of this is in your mind?

By the way I dont reject solopism as a philospohy, but I dont find it very useful day to day.

But you were challenging Merrill with what seem to be solopistic arguments. How do you get from that to "this exchange is real"? How do you define objectivity?

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By paying bills...you're either lost in the labyrinth, or testing me to see if I am, at any rate, I'm bored by Minotaur games, and anyway, my question relating to a photons 'existence' was by no means in instance of solipsistic philosophy--and was an implication of the excessively abstract nature of the linguistic construct. Do you care about 'photons' in a distant galaxy, or do you just want to avoid stubbing your toe in a dimly lit room? Of course, a 'clock' traveling at the speed of light is so much sexier than shining a flashlight on a lug nut...and anyway, what becomes of theoretical physics if the planet happens to lie along the axis of an impending gamma ray burst? The same thing that happens to the game of chess and all other parlor games.

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