Torture, and "cruel and unusual punishment"
Regarding torture and potentially less hideous "cruel and unusual punishment" - two points seem to have been overlooked in much of the discussion.
First, the unreleased photos would add nothing to what is already known. The damage has been done. The "targets" have already been "painted on the backs" of our service people by what has been done by the Bush regime. The United States has branded itself as a rouge nation in this respect, and has given license to any captor of any of our people to do as they will. All of our service people have been put at risk - incidentally, along with everything they know.
Secondly, the argument about whether torture (or cruel and unusual punishment) is or isn't effective, is moot. We, or any responsible nation, simply don't get to do it. Five points:
It's unconstitutional (Eighth Amendment).
It's against the law (U. S. Code. many places).
It's against the Uniform Code of Military Justice (Article 55).
It's against international conventions to which the US is signatory (the Geneva Conventions and numerous others) that have the force of law in the US.
It puts our own military people at unacceptable and unnecessary risk.
So, why is there any debate whatsoever about this?
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My own semi-contrarian point of view is this: I'd prefer to have those photos seen first as evidence in a courtroom, rather than used as mere headline generators in the ratings-driven media.
If they're going to be released, let it be in some way that helps put the people who gave the orders behind bars, not just satisfy the voyeurs and fingerpointers.
May 17, 2009 2:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
The release of the photos is the best way to put those responsible behind bars and that point is made in the judgment ordering their release.
May 18, 2009 12:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
You miss the point.
They should not become a mere spectacle. They are evidence and need to be treated as such.
May 18, 2009 1:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't miss that point at all. It has been a point I've been making about the court orders repeatedly for days that folks like you misread. I think you miss the point about what it will take to use the photos as evidence and release of the photos is a prerequisite. The ACLU has even said they would be fine if the photos were released to a prosecutor and not the public. You may have noticed the government is not availing itself of that option. Why? Because neither the Generals or the President want any prosecutions. They are laboring mightily (and wrongly in my opinion) to avoid any prosecution or really dealing with the torture crimes of the Bush years at all. Clearly Obama's wish is to sweep it all under the rug and tru to act like it didn't happen. But it did, everyone knows it did so it's a losing battle they're fighting to protect the guilty.
You cannot release the photos to the judge alone for one thing because that is not the purpose of FOIA. FOIA is designed to allow the public to see and examine and evaluate public documents in order to keep government honest. If you read the order and clearly understand it's implications you will find out why this is so. You cannot release the photos "only" to a prosecutor in roder to avoid "a spectacle" because none exists to hand them over to (don't forget the President and AG are both balking at doing their duty enforcing the law).
Therefore, public release of the pictures is the only means through which the photos can be made into evidence and the President and AG forced to do their jobs and enforce the law. As part of the public record the photos enter the public consciousness as what the court calls "the best evidence" as opposed to suppressing the photos and releasing some substitute descriptions of them or some other inferior means of describing the content of the photos and what occured. Once in the public record and consciousness, the photos will serve to spark debate, which may well lead to investigation and prosecution of those responsible and not just the grunts on the ground.
But the court makes very clear that you will never get to that point without public release according to the law. The government knows this very well and that is, of course, why they are going to such great lengths to suppress the photos. They aren't worried at all about inflaming public opinion in the Muslim world. that is a made up excuse. They are terrified of releasing the photos and inflaming public opinion in the United States of America that will lead to their own punishment for the role they played in these crimes. It is as clear as can be that is what is going on.
The folks who keep wanting to create their own method of suppression by going around the law and giving teh photos to a nonexistent prosecutor aren't grasping either the facts or law here. What they are missing is the real purpose of the government request for suppression, what the law requires, and what it will take to get an investigation going where this evidence can be used by a prosecutor to convict those responsible.
If you would read the decisions of the court and consider what the law commands and what the court is saying you will understand that there is no other way you get to use the photos as evidence in a courtroom. Wishing you could have your personal preference is nice and all, but it isn't realistic or workable under the circumstances.
May 18, 2009 4:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
Because our leaders in Congress are a bunch of spineless cowards who won't step up and order an immediate invetigation?
May 17, 2009 2:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
I cannot disagree with you, with Grouch or Astral.
There should be no debate. The LAW IS CLEAR 2340-2340a BY THE FASCIST OLC OF W.
Torture is against our laws. Outside the US, inside the US....
I dunno. that frickin cheney just sits on those 'news shows'--why give him the time? Oh hell, I can only hope he is busy destroying the repub party.
May 17, 2009 2:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
If the people who declared that our laws and those of the international community (to which we are signatories) had already been impeached, as they should have been, these photos would simply be a footnote. We could release them and remind the world that we are a nation of laws, and move on.
In the mean time, Cheney is admitting publicly to agreeing to torture, and his daughter is saying it WASN'T torture, and we are all just sitting back frustrated about a bunch of PICTURES!
Are we in a parallel universe? Because where I come from those pictures (along with some memos and some video) would be called EVIDENCE!
May 17, 2009 6:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, should read, "If the people who declared that our laws and those of the international community (to which we are signatories) -- were not worthy of respect -- had already been impeached...
May 17, 2009 6:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't fundamentally disagree with anyone here, even though everyone has a different take on how to move this forward. it has been a long frustrating wait for return to a transparent and balanced government that would enforce the rule of law, the foundation of our system; restoring our reputation, too.
The ACLU started this particular FOIA suit in 2003. Along with EFF and many other human rights orgs, they have sought documents for years now because they are evidence of crimes by our government. The Red Cross leaked a report, which is automatically considered expert evidence under the law, that is damning and should have spawned an immediate DoJ investigation. But in one case after another, the same brush off that was used by Bush.
After waiting years for a change in administrations that would reverse the abuses and usurpations and prosecute crimes against humanity, it is becoming quite apparent that this isn't it. And if this is buried now, it is our albatross to wear in shame as the country we've become.
Last but not least, there have been tens of thousands of people abused to some degree or another in our name, some guilty of heinous crimes against us, most probably not. Many are still being held and still being abused to some degree. Many are maimed or mentally damaged, living in the prison of their own body or mind now. Many have been killed. Do they not rate justice because they're Muslim?
May 17, 2009 10:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Excellent post and you've made the central point as loud and clear as it can be done!
Agree 100%
Thank you for adding your voice!
May 18, 2009 12:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
the answer to your question is simple.
this country long ago stopped being about the constitution or the "law".
May 18, 2009 11:44 AM | Reply | Permalink