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How Can One Talk To A Conservative?


How can one talk sensibly with people convinced aliens are coming to rescue us? Or that aliens are planning to exterminate us?  How can one talk to people like the author of "How Can Iceland Become The World's Richest Nation?", Hannes Holmsteinn Gissurarson, who says it's not his fault for being too successful but the fault of left-wing intellectuals who should have provided a counter-view?

How can one talk to someone like Charles Krauthammer, who says:

"The markets' recent precipitous decline is a reaction not just to the absence of any plausible bank rescue plan, but also to the suspicion that Obama sees the continuing financial crisis as usefully creating the psychological conditions -- the sense of crisis bordering on fear-itself panic -- for enacting his 'big-bang' agenda to federalize and/or socialize health care, education and energy, the commanding heights of post-industrial society."

Convenient reversal of cause and effect. It does bring to mind the fact that Bush took advantage of 9/11 to introduce sweeping changes in foreign and defense policy, along with executive power grabs, not to mention substantial economic changes. But that effort had a precursor, in the now-familiar words of PNAC, Project for a New American Century, which mentioned the likely need for a new Pearl Harbor to shake America out of complacency. It established grounds to suspect that the Bush White House had a pre-existing agenda that would not have survived discussion absent the security threat.

From the organization's 2000 paper, "Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources for a New Century" :

 

"Further, the process of transformation, even if it brings revolutionary change, is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor."

But there is nothing secret or misleading about the goals of liberals, and the Democratic Party. The "Big-Bang agenda" is exactly the planks of the platform. It would not have needed the financial meltdown. That actually makes it harder to deliver. It is likely that economic woes helped Obama win the election, but that's the breaks, Charlie.

As one reader wrote to Josh, derivatives traders are in the know, and already are clued in to which client is getting bailed out, etc. They are dumping stocks because they are heading down, period, not because Obama is going to fix the health care system. To the contrary, when passage of bailout bills was likely, the market rebounded some.

How can one respond when Gissurarson says "You can't blame people for their successes---you have to blame those who fail. We were too successful with the free-market philosophy." How can one explain to this person that he described exactly the problem, when he doesn't accept it's a problem? It's the bad apples, again. He said "Ten to fifteen guys overreached themselves, they were out of control. But that is not the cause of [Iceland's] collapse." He mentions the externals, international credit crunch, the European Central bank's lack of support, but accepts no responsibility beyond "some of us are to blame, indirectly, because we created a climate in which the entrepreneur was applauded. The businessman, the guy who takes over companies, asset-stripping---he was a hero in Icelandic folklore that was created by some of us who strongly supported the free market... Indirectly, I take some of the blame for it, but, if you think about it, it's not my fault. It's the fault of the left-wing intellectuals, who should have been giving a counter-view!" (From the March 9 New Yorker article "Lost", by Ian Parker.)



37 Comments

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"It's the fault of the left-wing intellectuals, who should have been giving a counter-view!"

By whom? The nebulous "they?"

Good Blog Tom.

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Very discouraging. They must teach "illogic" to these folks somewhere! Where is the school of illogic?

It ties your neurons into knots to read and hear this stuff!

Great blog, Tom. We could put examples up here all day. But I'm gonna protect my neurons instead!

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Apparently much of the world contracted the same fever, a love of money instead of value. Artappraiser found a good article, mentioned on David Seaton's blog:

The Color of China
by Minxin Pei and Jonathan Anderson
The National Interest
03.03.2009

China is also in the money-instead-of-value trap, trying to offer economic growth to maintain legitimacy, while allowing social services to wither. This in a country with rising income inequality.:
"China has no capital-gains tax, property tax or inheritance tax. Its income tax is so ineffectively enforced that it generates only a very small portion of government revenues. At present, income inequality in China has reached a level close to that of Latin America."

Love of money, or maybe more generally, power, is at least one root of evil. But I don't begrudge talented and hard working business types their success, only the proportion. If we keep a graduated income tax, with no cap, Bill Gates and Warren Buffet would still be on top. One can't have success without failure, but the distance is too great between the winners and losers. I will never swim as fast as Michael Phelps, but he's not Superman, just a good swimmer. When one person is worth a several million times another, there needs to be some kind of adjustment, some appropriate handicapping to keep the race worth running.

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I agree, Tom. Nothing wrong with success. Nothing wrong with competition. The problem is in the "rewards" for success. There are many ways to reward. But money does not have to be the be-all and end-all.

We need to find better ways to reward those who are successful. Ways which do not ultimately limit the welfare of others. People with limited intelligence or physical ability or whatever should not be penalized. There are ways to level what we all can expect. We should all expect to eat, to have clothing, to have shelter, medical care, to vote, to an education, freedom of speech etc. But there is no inherent right to amass wealth in ways that deprive others of their rightful necessities in life.

It's hard to find fairness. But as a society we need to continually work at that.

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Kraut is just spewing out the same propaganda he always does. These people no longer believe in truth, I do not think they ever did. In their minds,everybody lies. Your job as a pretend journalist is to make the lie tenable.

MSM has its own fairness doctrine. Let someone like Kraut talk and then let a 'liberal' speak. Now we have both 'sides' covered.

You have to hand it to some of these guys. Brass balls. The current economic crisis is:

The fault of poor and powerless people who took on mortgages they could not afford.

The fault of the Dems for letting poor and powerless people get mortgage financing.

The fault of Obama for not fixing the entire mess in seven weeks.

The fault of the left wing for scaring businessmen

Silver lining? The electorate is not buying it. 15%-20% 'buy' Rush. 72% have a favorable view of our New Prez. Probably 80% despise Kraut and every single thing he stands for.

Keep up the good fight Tom. We must be vigilant and stand up to lies as they constantly flow across the media.

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Talking to a conservative is easy. Listening to one is hard.

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Touche!

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Not if you wear hearing aids!

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... and turn them off.

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I do & I do. We still need a two party system, so they better figure something out, the way their going now they are on their way to permanent minority status.

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How right you are!

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Five!

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No, thanks. Something wrong with his mouth (setting aside his brain for another time), as if he had a piercing that went wrong.

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Anyone think our schools need tweeking? Was recently shocked to read, civics, government & economy are no longer a part of most school curriculum.

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no one's teaching civics, government and economy in school?

How widespread is that?

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Or spelling, apparently.

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Extremely! And it is how people have lost their understanding of what democracy really means. At the same time, they still have the pledge of allegiance, so they MUST understand that this country is about "liberty and justice for all".

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Schools need to teach civics, but they also need to teach ethics, long before college. Because one of the things that we're not talking about is that today's school children (they who will be in charge twenty years from now) are not the innocents we like to think they are. Rather they are the product of the cultures in which they were born and are being raised, and ethics among them is in short supply.

I teach studio and digital arts in a school that now has an equal number of American, Chinese and Korean students. That gives me an up-close-and-personal look at the similarities or differences among them in making value judgments. And what I observe shocks me. When the year began I naively assumed that the Chinese and Koreans would put the Americans to shame in demonstrating a more mature and developed understanding of the need for mutual respect, the imperative of the common rather than individual good, etc.. But I was wrong. We truly do live in a global village at this point, because apparently our no limit, free market ideology has corrupted every corner of it. Because what I have observed is that the foreign students, as well as the American students, are perfectly capable of exhibiting stunning levels of indifference to the concept of values in general and the plight of their less fortunate fellow man in particular.

So I've restructured their assignments, and now I attach an ethics question component to every project. This isn't difficult to do, as the news provides real life subjects for consideration and incorporation into a lesson plan every day. For example:

When the Manny/Fairey/AP ruckus arose, I asked the students in digital art to read newspaper articles about the issues raised. Then I asked them, in effect, to duplicate the scenario. I asked them to pick a copyrighted image from those that are available online, and then alter it in Photoshop in two steps (the first of which would still allow the original image to be readily identified and the second, not). They were then to prepare a presentation in which they could choose to acknowledge the original copyright holder, or not. If they acknowledged the origin of their image, they had to tell me why. And if they did not, they had to tell me why not.

The result was disheartening. Of twenty-seven students, only three saw anything at all wrong with co-opting the original copyrighted image without contacting the originator for permission to use it, and thereafter capitalizing on that image for personal gain. All the rest, regardless of country of origin and in variations on a theme, rationalized that by altering the image, even slightly, the original work ceased to exist, becoming -- by minimal alteration -- their own to do with as they pleased.

Three projects later I am making some progress with some students. But the outlook, in general, is grim. If this doesn't shift, our children will not only reap what we have sown, but replant it.

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Wow, bwak! That was a scary video for viewing so early in the morning! On Sunday morning, even!

What is perhaps most interesting is the fact that if you put a smoldering phallus between the lips of this guy, he would look pretty much like a young Rush Limbaugh. Just about as civically astute as Rush, too, don't you think?

"Socilists! To the Bear Cades!" ("Got a black magic marker?")

Sheesh!

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Hendrick Hertzberg has an interesting blog in the New Yorker about Krauthammer, who is a former psychiatrist and Mondale speech writer. He's a classic neocon, except he converted to Catholicism at some point. Although he's no dummy, he seems to be mired in standard neoconservative foreign policy thinking with a bias toward Israel and he has evolved into a social conservative as well.

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I don't talk to conservatives if I can help it. In my part of the country they are about as ignorant as you can get. A state gun safety instructor recently denied a 13 year old boy access to his class because his grandfather (or father?) had voted for Obama. The instructor, a former Marine, said he wouldn't teach liberals or people who voted for Obama, who was the next thing to the antichrist. Surprisingly, to me at least, the instructor was *reluctantly* let go.

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This is OT FDR, but your comment reminded me of a an incident where a cop teaching gun safety to a class full of kids (in Florida?) accidentally shot himself in the leg while doing so.

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OMG, Seashell! They don't teach cops gun safety in FL, I guess.

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Now, I'll bet THAT left a lasting impression!

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Great post Tom.

How can one respond when Gissurarson says "You can't blame people for their successes---you have to blame those who fail. We were too successful with the free-market philosophy." How can one explain to this person that he described exactly the problem, when he doesn't accept it's a problem?

I think you respond that in any athletic game, rules are established to promote sportsmanlike conduct and limit injury to players. Likewise we recognize that there is a need for traffic laws and regulations to promote reliable transportation and the safety of the people who need it. So why is it so hard to recognize that our economic system must have laws and regulations in order to promote economic progress and to protect citizens from economic crime? Why is a "free-for-all" system such a good idea in economics when it doesn't work anywhere else?

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I've tried that argument, which is indeed fundamental. Typical responses will be slogans, ("ever been hired by a poor person?") threats, ("investors will leave"), or the trick of reversing the argument ("how is it fair for me to pay your mortgage?").

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Conservatives as a whole seem to lack cognition, the power of perception, learning and reasoning.

There are those of them who do, the elected and party officials and media elites, who use their intellect to keep the impassioned, misfits, and misanthropes in lock step.

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I've given up talking to them. I value both my physical and mental health too much to take the risk.

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The "commanding heights" comment by Krauthammer is a reference to Hayek's argument that society needs to reject the tyranny of the Planners. Hayek grouped the matter of state mandated means of production and "social improvement" policies as a species of not letting something happening. The idea of spontaneity as a preservable resource is central to the thinking.

To argue with this idea does not require a vindication of "planning" but a questioning of how well the means of preserving spontaneity has actually worked in the systems favored by these lovers of freedom.

In regards to the idea of a command economy, J K Galbraith wrote his work, The New Industrial State, as proof that a cabal of dreaded "planners" were the men behind the curtain producing the appearance of spontaneity. One could do worse than model one's discourse with the other side the aisle upon his example. It shifts the challenge to the other side to show how they are carrying out what they declared to be the highest thing.

Or if that seems like too much work, one could always say:

"You said that your system would create value and create opportunities but my money is crap and my children are playing musical chairs with thousands of other people over the right to sit on the remaining deck chairs of the Titanic. If you believe so much in the idea of personal responsibility, take responsibility for that."

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Okay, see if this analogy holds up: Just because not everyone as the ability or genetic pre-disposition for the Olympics, and therefore chooses not to train for them, doesn't mean they want to deprive Olympians of their glory or want the Olympians to fail. On the other hand, Olympians have the responsibility to play by the rules. The Wall Streeters are akin to the East German teams that did steroids and fixed judges.

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I think it holds up to a point. These guys are basically loan sharks or hustlers, not somebody who is physically endowed by nature and then trains like hell every day. These guys who brought the system down were flim flam artists. They may look like they "worked" hard every day, but it's a big joke.

The joke was sold to us on the TV. It's called propaganda. It's a false god.

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I didn't mean to say the bankers were genetically gifted, I meant that, the wallstreeters were people who had more of both a particular talent for, in their case, finance, and a strong desire to make a lot of money, just as the Olympians have a special talent in one area and feel an overwhelming drive to achieve, as opposed to many who don't have the need or a strong desire, (or in some cases, the intelligence), to either achieve billions or win gold medals.

My point was, that like the Olympians, we can root for them to succeed, but we also expect them to play fairly. The flim-flam artists are the cheaters and ones who rig the system; analagous to the judge in the ice skating competition who rigs her vote, or the track athletes taking steroids, etc.

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Nowadays, you can't.

Instead of having an articulate, constructive, civil and coherent conversation or debate about public policies, namely government, conservatives will respond with rhetoric and accusations.

Literally, anything and everything that conservatives don’t agree with, or are opposed to, is labeled as “socialism”.

Where have all the William F. Buckley conservatives gone? I disagreed with his views much of the time, but he came across as civil, non-intimidating and easygoing.

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... but Buckley, at least, at the start was a very pernicious influence. Read Paul Krugman's book, CONSCIENCE OF A LIBERAL for details.

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It's not my fault! You did not stop me!

How immature can one be? It's about being the grown up, being the parent. Once one attains a certain level of wealth and power, it is up to those individuals to use it wisely. At the end of the day, if they exhibit self-restraint, it will not prevent their missing a meal for the remainder of their days. THAT is what is forgotten by these imbeciles who made so much money and expand their power at the expense of others. By that I do not mean they did not share their wealth, I mean that they destroy the wealth of others.

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The moment Obama was elected president, eight years of Bush vanished. No big surprise. We all knew it would. It was only remarkable for the syncronicity in which it was implemented. It was like watching a flock of pigeons turn in flight.

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Tom Wright

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