"POST CLAIM UNDERWRITING" The SINGLE BEST REASON for KILLING the ENTIRE SOUL EATING BASTARD Industry, (aka: The Health Insurance Industry)
First, sorry about the length of this post but this is "THEE" ISSUE that will make the PUBLIC OPTION in any Health Care Reform Bill a moral imperative. And a BIG re-election issue for ANY lawmaker that refuses to support the Public Option.
Most are aware of my feelings when it comes to the SOUL EATING BASTARDS called Health Insurance Companies, but the absolute undiluted bullshit called "Post Claim Underwriting" takes the outrage to a whole new level, but it also provides the fulcrum for The Public Option.
Imagine that you actually have enough money to go out and purchase health insurance for you and your family. You find a company you like, you fill out the application, the company issues you a policy and you pay your monthly premiums on time for 2 or 3 years, all the while thinking you actually have health insurance.
Then one day you go to the doc and get the news you have cancer, but they caught it early and with the right treatment everything should be fine, so you start making arrangements for the FIGHT OF YOUR LIFE and schedule the necessary treatment.
All seems to be fine until a day or two before your treatment is to start and you get a letter from your "friendly" health insurance company saying, that because you were treated for heartburn 12 years ago they are retroactively canceling your policy and you now have no coverage for treatment of the cancer.
Want more on "Post Claim Underwriting"? Here are a couple of explanations of the scam (thanks to both authors I could not find a name to go with the first example, but, please feel free to take a look at both links):
Post claim underwriting occurs when an insurance company refuses to pay your claim for a loss that should have been covered, on the grounds that you were a bad risk and the policy should never have been issued, then cancels or rescinds the policy even retroactively.
When you apply for insurance, your application is underwritten by the insurance company. Underwriting is the practice of determining, based on your application and other information the underwriter may obtain regarding your health and background, whether the insurance company should make you an offer of insurance and, if so, on what terms and for what premium. All of this underwriting work is normally completed before your insurance policy is issued. Post claim underwriting is a practice whereby an insurance company, which has reason to know or suspect adverse prior medical history for you, waits until you file a claim before spending money to confirm its suspicion and then asserts that no coverage exists; therefore no claim can be paid.
An insurance company that is relying on post claim underwriting, instead of looking to pay your submitted claim for a loss incurred by you as promised under the terms of the insurance policy it issued to you, looks for all the things in your application or coming from your application that it might be able to dig up to rescind (cancel) your policy and avoid having to pay your claim. The insurance company, rather than refusing to issue you a policy at the time you apply because information in the application leads it to believe you are a bad risk, waits until after the policy has been issued (and you are falsely secure in the knowledge that you have insurance protection) and, then after you have submitted a claim, denies coverage on the grounds that the policy should not have been issued in the first place.
When this occurs, the insurance company ignores its commonly understood obligation to do underwriting when a policy application is made rather conducting its risk assessment after your claim is submitted. The insurance company performs this after-the-fact evaluation to rid itself of an insured individual it contends should never have received insurance coverage. Meanwhile, you think that you have valid insurance and do not seek insurance elsewhere.
Often a long delay occurs between the time you file your claim and its final disposition while the insurance company performs underwriting. The company prepares this file as thoroughly and completely as it can to support its plan to rescind, or cancel, your policy on the grounds that it has, after the fact, unearthed information about your prior medical history that would have caused it to decline your application for insurance if this information were known at the time of application. The acquisition of medical records and their assessment can take months. More info =====> HERE
Wouldn't it be great if you could get paid for making a promise to do something in the future, but when the time came to keep your side of the bargain you could cancel the contract and not have to pay? The person you made the promises to might be upset at paying you for all those years for nothing, but you get free money! Ignoring the moral and ethical flaws with the scheme, it would be a great way to improve your financial position. Of course, that's how insurance companies often operate these days. One tool they use is "post-claim underwriting." It is a terrible, dishonest practice that reneges on the insurer's promises when the insured most needs the benefits promised in the insurance policy.
What is post-claim underwriting? In its simplest form, an insurance company takes a cursory look at your application, sells you a policy, collects premiums until you make a claim, and then does an "investigation" to determine that they should not have sold you the policy in the first place. Instead of doing a true underwriting analysis before issuing the policy, the insurer waits until after you make a claim and then decides you tricked them into insuring you. The insurance company then rescinds the policy, claiming you misrepresented something or failed to disclose something on your application for the insurance.
From the insurer's perspective, it's the perfect scam. The insurer gets to collect premiums on a policy, but does not have to pay the benefits promised. Of course, it is also a bad faith practice, a flagrant breach of the covenant of good faith and fair dealing that is part of every insurance policy, and may be a crime. Unfortunately, those problems will not deter an insurer who cares more about its bottom line than for the rights and interests of its insureds.
Some states have a statute that expressly prohibits post-claim underwriting. California has such a statute, but that did not stop health insurers from doing post-claim underwriting. The language of the statute is very explicit--it requires an insurer to complete its underwriting investigation before issuing the policy, not wait until after a claim is made. Might seem like a common sense requirement to you as an insurance consumer, but not to an insurance company who wants to cancel a policy. This is illustrated by the recent case of Hailey v. California Physician's Service, 158 Cal.App.4th 452 (Ct. App. 4th Div 2007). Blue Shield contended that the statute requiring it "to complete medical underwriting" before issuing the policy really meant it could just look at the application, assign values to the risks disclosed, and issue a policy. Although it had a medical release from the prospective insured, it did no underwriting investigation to determine if it should insure the person. Blue Shield argued it could then do a "postclaim investigation" after a claim was made, and rescind the policy. The California court rejected that assertion, viewing the "postclaim investigation" as basically the same thing as "postclaim underwriting." The court ruled that the insurer must do a reasonable underwriting investigation before issuing the policy or it will lose its ability to rescind the policy later, unless the insured willfully misrepresented something in the application. A wonderful rule to protect insurance consumers.
"Thanks to W. Michael Moody for this information, more info ===> HERE"
More info =====> HERE and ====> HERE
If you have the time take a look at these horror stories ==> HERE
I BELIEVE THAT THIS SINGLE issue.. or more accurately... this single SCAM is enough to get a PUBLIC OPTION included in any health care reform bill, if WE shout about enough. I defy ANY elected official to defend ANY insurance company that uses tactics like these.
I also need to mention that it is not just "no name" Insurers doing this to people, it is companies like Assurant, Wellpoint, United Health Care and others.
The kicker to all this is that, this assault is usually against an individual or a small business group or those people or businesses that don't have the time, energy or the money to fight back.
Something I co-opted and expanded just a little bit:
"Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards, for they are subtle and quick to anger. Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup. Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle, and will piss on your computer. But Health Insurance Companies?... well.... FUCK the Health Insurance Companies... lets get 'em "
I URGE you to post any first hand experience you know of, or have been through with this health insurance company, bullshit called Post Claim Underwriting.
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Just so I understand -
are you saying that under the public option the Government will NOT retain the right to refuse my treatment based on its own criteria?
June 18, 2009 2:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
L,
No, I am saying the government will not be able to cancel your policy AFTER issuing you coverage and taking your money for years like Health Insurance Companies are doing.
Do you really think that it's OK for these bastards to cancel policies retroactively?
Abe would be leading the fight if he were around.
June 18, 2009 2:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
He's not asking a serious question, Face. He's a noxious, troublemaking nuisance.
June 18, 2009 2:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
TOG,
I figured as much. But, ABE would be leading the fight against these vampires. I particularly like that you left the "ob" off the word noxious, much more cutting... I LIKE IT!!!
I was gonna ask you about something OH.. the ads how did you say to get rid of them in Firefox? It is possible that this new system (Vista 64 bit, whatever the hell that means) I got won't run firefox quite right. I'm using IE for the moment. and even the in line spell check is no longer here.
June 18, 2009 2:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
A client uses Vista 64 on one machine. I have very limited experience with it - though it does handle very large amounts of RAM quite well.
Software compatibility? Rollin' the dice there.
Firefox won't run 64-bit? So no AdBlock Plus? Or NoScript? Bummer...
June 18, 2009 2:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yep, the ads take longer to load than most of the pages I use. On a rather funny note I was reading a post about protestors in Georgia (former Soviet block nation) and the ad that showed up at the side of the page was "Find your Russian Beauty Online" Google is in control of all... apparently.
June 18, 2009 2:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
The government doesn't have the incentive to refuse your claim. Private insurers do.
The government doesn't have to make a profit. Private insurers do. They're under pressure from corporate officers, stockholders, etc. etc.
Everyone knows already that the government, if it does Single Payer, isn't in the business to make a profit.
Private insurers make money by NOT paying for your claim. They LOSE money when they do.
Tell me, who would you rather decide, between a FOR profit, private insurer, and the government?
Me? I take the government every single day of the week.
June 18, 2009 8:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lalo,
you come here looking for shit and you always find it, but that's because you manufacture it.
:-)
June 19, 2009 9:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
A long post to say:
"We took your money because we never thought you would file a claim."
"What? You want the money back? Well, uhhh...." Frankly, it is NOT about the money, it is about the coverage. Who care sif they refund $10,000 and not pay the $40,000 for services?
June 18, 2009 2:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
GZ,
Yep, you summed it all up quite well in a sentence. Now I feel really, really stupid. Wanna be a ghost writer? 8~)
June 18, 2009 2:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wasn't my intent, but sometimes I think we spend a lot of time in obfuscating things that are really simple. The Repubs won because they made it all so simple, when it was really complicated. Now they are making it complicated when it is really very simple.
June 18, 2009 6:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bingo!
For so long, the R's were great at oversimplification. (Look at their audience and tell me it didn't work!) Now, they want to complicate things. And we need simplifiers, to keep the short-attention-span Americans on board.
Sticky is good.
June 18, 2009 8:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Methinks so!
June 18, 2009 11:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Almost like the Monty Python "Insurance Sketch" - "Your policy clearly states that no claim you make will be paid!"
June 18, 2009 3:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
good post, I'll have to come back to this and read the things you linked to, later today.
June 18, 2009 2:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't understand your argument that this will be the one thing that would make a public option happen, because dealing with this type of problem inherent in the system right now seems to be precisely what they (Obama and Congress) want to do instead. The way I get it, they are working on writing tons of laws trying to make sure all insurance companies can't do things like this, can't game the patients nor game other insurance companies, so that they are all on an even playing field.
Certainly it's not like lawmakers don't know this is one of the problems. See The California government went through a long fight on it. The problem: if one state's laws say one thing, and others say another thing on this, it's not a level playing field, they play more of the games in one state and less in another, to make up the difference.
I get the point of what Congress and Obama want to do is to make laws that they all have to do the same thing everywhere with things like this, like everything related to pre-existing conditions, and I hear them stress it in public statements.
I know, I know, it sounds impossible to try to catch every game an insurance company working for profit might think up, and it probably is. To me it sounds like the tax code, they write a new law to take care of a loophole, and the accountants find new ones.
But my point is that you are probably going to see them try to address all these unfairnesses, and many of the insurance companies are saying, ok, we'll go along, it's getting ridiculous, we need to make the playing field even.
So I don't see how bring this is up would work at a "call to arms" for a public option. What they are going to propose, it's going to make the insurance companies look quite a lot better for a while, not worse. Until they think of new ways to game the system and make a profit.
The real cry for a public option, if you want one, is in that they are going to be able to cut costs the most, because they also have the buying power of Medicare enrollees. That's precisely why so many parties don't want to see one.
But even that scenario gets complicated, because if the public option doesn't do it exactly right, and denied too many things, for example, only paying for a generic drug when a name brand differs and might be better in many cases, it won't look so attractive to many users anymore, and users will chose to pay a bit more for a different plan.
June 18, 2009 3:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
AA,
First are you really an Art Appraiser, cause if you are I have a few questions.
Now the reason I think that "PCU" is indeed a battle cry is because it is SO UNFAIR. Historically underwriting has ALWAYS be done prior to the issuance of any kind of insurance policy. What these "SEB" are doing is basically saying OK we'll take your money now and MAYBE pay claims later and MAYBE becomes much more of a NO if you happen to get really sick and need expensive treatment.
I like to think that I am fairly well informed on health insurance/care and I hadn't really ever heard of this crap. I think if you were to ask people if an insurance company should be able to do this they're gonna say no way. And what I heard these CEOs testifying to "that they weren't willing to stop PCU" (a couple of them even said they didn't do post claim underwriting but rather "post claim investigations") the public in general will demand a true public option.
I also think that, that, unless there was a public option these Insurance companies would as you pointed out find a way to game the system because they wouldn't really have to worry about being competetive.
June 18, 2009 3:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
are you really an Art Appraiser
Yes, the kind like the people on "Antiques Roadshow" (some of them are friends, acquaintances, colleagues.) Mostly 19th & 20th century fine art (paintings, sculpture, prints.)
June 18, 2009 3:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
The problem with your "get them angry" method, the way I understand it, is that like 70% are not angry yet. They haven't had a problem, haven't had a claim denied, they've heard other people who have, but they think their insurance is better and it won't happen to them. The way they think: if the government starts fiddling too much, the good place I am in may disappear, and then I too will have problems with coverage like those angry people. If you read the Frank Luntz GOP talking points study (I did,) what he focuses on is that people are afraid of losing what they have, of getting less. That is something Maggie Mahar claimed was true, too, that poll after poll shows most people are OK with their coverage, they know others are having problems, and they'd like to see that fixed, but they are also deathly afraid that the government will go too far and it will mean less for them than they have now. And that was why the leading Dem candidates all decided on transitional plans rather than going whole hog promoting single payer or a big role for Federal government.
June 18, 2009 4:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am sure Obama hinmself understands this up down and backwards. It is why he offered a weaker plan than Hillary. because he wanted to be president, and did not want to scare all those people who are comfortable with their health insurance now and fearful of whether the government reformers will cause things to get better or worse. It is also why he made those clear declarative statements in his speech to the AMA, i.e., "If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor. Period."
June 18, 2009 4:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
p.s. The more I think of it, it really does seem to be the main thrust of Obama/Congress to deal with things like this, that is what they want to do, what they think will make a substanial difference, is to severely limit how much insurance companies can cherry pick their market, and to require universal coverage at the same time. They don't see a public option as being absolutely necessary at this time, because for a while things will get better.
But as insurance companies can't profit and disappear, you will eventually get a "too big to fail" few, and as cries and complaints start about those, the "public option" eventually might not be an option any more.
To be clear, I'm not saying it's a great plan, I'm just trying to explain my understanding of what the plan is.
Not to mention that to set up a public option at this time would also add a substanial amount to the government bottom line, and it's not exactly twisting Obama and the Congressional Dems' arms to leave it off at this time for that reason.
June 18, 2009 3:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think this is such a complicated issue. Either the way O chooses to lay it out and speak to this issue or the clear intent of the insurance company; which is clearly to screw the insured out of supposed legitimate coverage. It makes me think of the stupid commercial currently on TV that involves the people throwing money out to the trash collectors. It appears that to satisfy what these types of insurance companies really want is for us to just give them our money for free and not having absolutely any chance to have a insurance product in return. The greater problem here is not soo much that we have sheer "rip off" insurers as much as the fact that I guarantee you these criminal companies want the presumption of decency and the reputation of honesty. Just like our current flock of Senators.
June 18, 2009 3:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
V123,
"...I guarantee you these criminal companies want the presumption of decency and the reputation of honesty. Just like our current flock of Senators."
THOSE WORDS ARE PERFECT!
THANKS FOR THAT!
June 18, 2009 4:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well said!
June 18, 2009 6:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ok, I went over to Maggie's site and I highly recommend you read her post today, at least the second half.
She has lots of inside contacts and she outlines what's she thinks is going to happen and she sound pretty sure about her predictions. She said David Brooks column is mostly dumb but is partly correct in that first Obma handed it over to Congress, but she says he's going to take it back at the end.
See, you are going to have a panel called MedPac setting the standards on what's covered and what's not. So this kind of stuff that upsets you and me is going to be history.
It will bring a whole new set of arguments about what's covered, but it won't be based on pre-existing. (Really, one of the things Obama has been quite vocal about is the problem of all the ways of cherry picking for pre-existing has to be solved. He's solving it by having a protocol board. Then everyone knows what's standard, and where you are going to run into problems is with denial of non-standard treatment.)
Maggie's second half:
The main thing I think is that you are ragging on something that is going to be history. You already have what you are asking for, it's not an issue. And it has little to do with whether there's a public option or not. What I was saying was that if you want to push for a public option, you have to come up with another reason, something they don't already plan to do, they are way ahead of you.
June 18, 2009 5:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with what you are saying.
Just a style note, though. To me when you are using all caps, you are yelling--not unlike those preachers who hang out on campus free speech areas trying to incite a riot. And when you are using bold caps, you are doing the equivalent of shrieking. Also, calling someone (in bold caps, no less) "soul eating bastards" comes off a bit over-the-top.
June 18, 2009 6:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
One more bit and then I'll STFU (caps are OK with acronyms). When you keep putting in caps or bold words or bold caps, it interrupts what you are trying to say and makes it harder to read. Here's your first bit:
It comes off really choppy. Use these guys for emphasis, but not all of the time or you're that guy on the bus yelling into his cellphone.
(sorry to be the English police, sometimes I get this chip on my shoulder.....)
June 18, 2009 6:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
M,
Oh OK... mom and dad were both teachers and they would tell me the exact same thing.
Point taken. But just hitting the keys harder doesn't seem to calm my nerves...
I need those "CRUTCHES", I'm just not that eloquent. I will do better... I promise.
☺ ☺ ☺ ☺
June 18, 2009 7:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
LOL, I'm just trying to keep you from coming off like the net equivalent of William Shatner! ;)
June 19, 2009 4:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
This has to stop and only the government can stop it.
June 18, 2009 7:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Amen, Dickday! I've never heard of a business that can cancel a contract after collecting money. It's even more criminal when they go after people who are too sick to defend themselves. We've been victims of this system for way too long.
I'd really like to hear a rep of an insurance company defend this practice. Do you think they could look a patient in the face and explain the rationale?
June 19, 2009 11:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
In case you haven't seen the article yet, The Washington Monthly has a good piece on the practice of "recission".
Insurers kicking customers to the curb when they sick.
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2009_06/018667.php
They excerpt this from Kevin Drum, formerly of the Washington Monthly:
Single Payer is the only logical, rational, sensible way of fixing our mess. It's the cheapest and most efficient way of financing health care. Unfortunately, the best possible solution is the one they won't even consider. Neither party will.
June 18, 2009 8:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Art Appraiser--
Thanks for pointing to my post on David Brooks and Obama's strategy on www.healthbeatblog.org.
I would love to start posting on TPM Cafe again; I just have very litle time. And I'm so tech-challenged that posting on a different format is hard and time-consuming.
(This is not a TPM problem- just my problem)
But do come over and comment on HealthBeat from time to time.
And I'll try to make it over here. It is a great website.
June 18, 2009 9:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
2M,
I do hope that you will continue to post here at TPM. The more we all know the more we will get done when it comes to health care. I have learned a lot from your site and the discussions there.
I look forward to learning more from you on this most important of issues.
June 19, 2009 5:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
Single payer NOW...damnit!!!!
June 19, 2009 3:08 PM | Reply | Permalink