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PLEASE! I TRULY do NEED your help b4 June 30th!! Just take a look . (Please REC this post, normally I wouldn't ask but this SHIT is serious)


This is something I REALLY need your help with, Because the FDA is considering a complete ban on certain medications used in the treatment of chronic pain. If this new regulation goes through it is going to cause a lot of people a lot of pain. Somebody (can't figure out exactly who) is asking the FDA to ban most of the more potent pain relievers currently available by prescription, and it appears this new regulation will be enacted UNLESS a lot more "opposed" letters are received. That's what I am asking you to do, oppose this proposed new regulation. Also, the rumour is that ADD/ADHD medications are next on the "hit" list along with certain cancer medications and then certain psychiatric meds.

 

Link to the American Pain Foundation site =====> HERE

Feel free to copy my "comment" below and change a few details if you want, even a direct copy is OK too. I'd actually like you to write your own but either way is fine with me. You don't need to put your name on it and even at the comment site (I'll list it below) it only requires a first name, and Organization  (for the "organization" you can use the American Pain Foundation) In the comment section you MUST include the Docket number which is at the top of my comment that  I pasted below.  

PLEASE SUBMIT YOUR COMMENT ===> HERE  

Again, you don't need to include your last name on the form to submit your comment and you don't have to put your name at the end of this letter, I did, but it is not required. Oh.. if you are going to post a long comment at the above site type it up first and copy and paste it because the site will time out. 

 

THANKS TO ALL THAT TAKE THE TIME TO HELP I WILL BE IN YOUR DEBT FOR A VERY LONG TIME!    

Docket No. FDA-2009-N-0143 As someone that has had to deal with chronic pain for the past 13 years I want to urge you not to take any action that would limit the ability of my doctor to treat the constant pain I experience 24 HOURS A DAY. I have not been able to sleep more than 3 hours at a stretch for more than 11 years now and to limit the choices my doctor and I have to treat this constant and NEVER ENDING pain would be draconian and cruel.
I am already forced to pay something I call "The Pain Tax" because my doctor is not permitted to put refills on one of my medications. This policy, (it is not a law) requires me to see my doctor, at a minimum, EVERY MONTH which requires me to pay for at least 8 extra doctor visits every year.
Rather than clamping down and causing HARM to MILLIONS OF AMERICANS, I urge you to relax whatever regulation it is that forces those who suffer the most, to pay the most, when it comes to receiving effective care. That banning certain medications is even being considered is cruel and unusual to pain patients.
I feel that you and "other" regulatory agencies should trust the American citizen and their doctor enough to know what is best, and to make the best decisions about their individual care.
There appears to be a very "vocal MINORITY" that feels they MUST protect everyone else regardless of the hardship it burdens EVERY other citizen with, and to act at the urging of these vocal minorities is to kick to the side of the road THE TRUE EXPERTS THAT ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT WORKS BEST FOR THEM. Again, I urge you to not only ignore this call from the "hysterical" and take NO ACTION, to limit a doctor's and patient's choice to decide the best treatment for that individual.
IN ADDITION I would ask that you pass a regulation that says the following:
     "Doctors SHALL be permitted to include refills on prescriptions, regardless of            the type of medication prescribed"
This simple change will save individuals and their insurance companies Billions of dollars while at the same time save Medicare and Medicaid even more. Please don't limit the choices of doctors and patients just because a vocal minority has decided that certain medications are "bad"!
And, if I am unable to convince you to relax the "refill regulation", then please take comfort in the fact that doctors are currently being effectively intimidated, by certain agencies, in the decisions they make while treating pain, and also, you can take comfort in the fact that a tremendous burden is in place for those that suffer, and take no action on this ill informed proposal to ban certain pain relieving medications.
Very, Very, VERY Sincerely,    

Please post a note if you submit a comment, or even if you think I'm a complete idiot, I don't care if you take the time to send in a comment, hell I'll even agree with you until July 1st. I will also be reposting this or trying to keep it in the "Recommended Reader Posts" area. Any help with that will be greatly appreciated. If you want to copy this ENTIRE post to put up some place else feel free. And again PLEASE RECOMMEND this post!

One more thing if you have the time PLEASE send a copy to advocacy@painfoundation.org  

Thanks!

 FACE  (an angry Ò¿Ó about this bullshit issue)


147 Comments

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Interesting that the FDA, on the pdf on the page linked, says some main concerns it has are:

(1)when extended release products are intentionally crushed or dissolved, the controlled-release mechanism may be defeated, allowing a large dose to be taken at once. This presents a risk of fatal overdose.... (2) 4.7 percent of that population, took pain relievers for nonmedical use in 2002. That number increased to 12.5 million, or 5.0 percent of the population over 12, in 2007.

In other words, people who are not in pain illegally got the drugs and used them to get the fastest effects. The FDA solution is to complicate prescriptions for those who are in pain and need the drug for medical reasons:

(a)FDA believes that one key element to assure safe use for these products will be prescriber certifications....(b)FDA believes that another key element to assure safe use for these products will be certifications of pharmacists......(c)FDA believes patient education, in conjunction with a prescriber-patient agreement

It would seem the problem is that prescriptions are being illegally made or sold to people who want to abuse the drugs, and the solution is to clamp down on illegal prescriptions (ie-'non-medical use'), not complicate prescriptions for those entitled and in medical need of the drugs.

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NCD,
I can't really tell where you stand on this other than I think you believe that the FDA plans on not complicating things for PATIENTS. If I am correct about what you believe I would assure you that EVERY action the FDA has taken in regards to pain treatment has made it expotentially harder to be treated.

The diversion arguement is complete bullshit, because a 90 day prescription that I MAILED in to get it filled and the "Powers that Be" say that is completely fine well this would put a 90 day supply of the medication in my hands ALL AT ONE TIME. So the complete shit they are talking about diversion, is just that shit, because if someone wanted to sell their drugs this is how I imagine they would do it. More money, faster! And if it was truly the FDA's intention to prevent abuse as they claim, then why do they allow this? But it really makes no difference because if a doctor does write a 90 day supply for the "evil medications" they are immediately investigated by state boards AND the DEA. Most doctors I know just won't take the risk and put up with the everyday phone calls form "pain patients wanting to switch their doctors"
Try this get your phone book and call any General Practioner/Primary Care Physician and ask them if they take pain patients. None will take any new pain patients and most have even quit treating some patients with chronic pain that have doctored with them for YEARS.
The FDA will ALWAYS say "we want to make sure people get treated fully for the pain they experience" and I assure you it is COMPLETE bullshit. In the little town I live in there is ONLY 1 pharmacy that carries the types of medications this new rule would clamp down on the rest and that include the "Big-Box" stores among the others.

See it does not matter what the FDA says the end result is to always.... ALWAYS... AMWAYS!!! make it harder for the patient, the doctor and the pharmacist that are all part of pain treatment.

I know doctors that have very nearly had their home "siezed" because an undercover agent showed up in urgent care with counterfeit medical records in "severe pain" and the doctor treated him. This is how people with pain and the people that treat pain are controlled... by fear and intimidation!

If I have read your comment wrong, I am sorry and please, let me know, but I pay an extra $1500 a year becasue of the FDA trying to prevent abuse, with the "no refill rule" and I haven't even mentioned the hoops I had and continue to have to jump through just to get a "little" relief from the pain. More to the point I have not had A SINGLE DAY in the last 13 years when I was totally pain free and it is all because of the fear instilled in doctors by the FDA and the DEA.

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Sorry, I am saying the FDA says the problem is people who are not in pain but abusing drugs, likely with fallacious prescriptions, yet the FDA plan does not mention cutting down on prescription fraud. It just puts more hurdles and burdens on people who are entitled to get pain pills and their doctors.

Punishing people who need the pills will not reduce prescription selling or fraud is my point.

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So I exactly concur with your beef about the FDA. The new regulations will not cut down fraud, just make life harder for pain patients and doctors who treat them.

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NCD,
Sorry about my little rant, and not understanding your position.... maybe it's all those "evil drugs" I have to take that don't eliminate the pain. They just take the edge off.


Again, I beg your forgivness (׿×)!!


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This is the same exact argument as the one used against gun control.

Seriously. Are you for or against gun control?

I am ardently opposed to any gun control legislation that makes it harder for upstanding citizens to own firearms.

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Is it too hard to have to fill out a form? Or doyou really just want anonymity? I'm actually sympathetic to fairly generous private small arms, no heavy machine guns or rockets, please. But what's wrong with having to show you are in fact "upstanding", i.e. no outstanding warrants and no convictions for felony?

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There's nothing wrong with it. I was making sure your argument was consistent.

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Punish the whole class...

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punish the whole village

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Thank you for this post. I am so sick of this totalitarian nanny state shit from them. And it's a pity that the Michael Jackson case will put fuel in this fire. At certain point there has to be a realization that one will get a certain number of abuses with everything (and also while I am at it, that some people will have life threatening reactions to some drugs--because some people are allergic to penicillin is no reason to ban it.)

I am still so pissed about the pseudoephedrine legislation. Because they think they could make a tiny dent in the meth problem, because some meth was being manufactured using Sudafed, they made millions of allergy sufferers' lives more miserable. The consequence of what they did is not just that those who want pseudoephedrine with their antihistamine have to ask for and sign for it behind the pharmacy counter, the consequence was that certain very useful drugs stopped being made because their market became smaller not being on display, like Drixoral. (Proof can be found on the net, thousands of people on health sites asking " happened to Drixoral, how come I can't find it? I need it!") There is nothing like Drixoral made in the U.S.A. now, the antihistamine it used in combo with pseudoephedrine is different from all the others available and worked much better for many people. Sure you can get it from a Canadian website, willing to sell it to Americans at exorbitant prices, like 10 times what it used to cost when it was made here.

For anyone who has family with serious pain issues, you know this bullshit. Everyone using is not Michael Jackson.

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I agree that pseudoephedrine should be OTC. The really crazy thing is you can still by ephedrine at the truck stops in most states. It is a lot easier to make meth from ephedrine than pseudoephedrine.

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by = buy (sorry, where is that edit function?)

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The edit function: It's in your head, like so many other things. You have to proof-read before you submit.

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CVille,

I like you but I would like to offer feedback that I don't always find you 'living up to the word' Cville implies.

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It implies Charlotteville.

Just sayin'

And

Politics ain't beanbag

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I was referring to a reference below, in which the source of all pain was "in the head." That said, I get what you are saying, and would invite you to read below. I sometimes am way too passionate about certain topics, and if I go upstream on a thread it seems particularly out of place. Point taken. But, since I got you most recent response, I think you have probably read the post I am talking about.

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aa,
THANKS I NOW OWE YOU!

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Nah, I bet you my blood boils over this stuff more than yours does, hah. Banning instead of trying to inform, treating grownups like children unable to know what to do with their own bodies, and not taking the patient as the person who is best able to understand his own symptoms and reactions are some of my least favorite things, back from when I had a big complicated health problem back in the early 90's and continuing some very serious health problems with family members since.

It's sooo ironic that in places like Iraq they just go and get the fucking valium from a pharmacist if they need it. It's a joke how many pharmaceuticals are easily available in Europe without the nonsense we have to go through here and they have less problem with overuse of antibiotics, etc.

Show me the figures that say abuse is affected one way or another by restriction of availability (anyone ever hear about Prohibition?) Self-medication is as old as the herbalist, and certainly if making something "by prescription only" isn't enough, then I'd say your real problem is the state of your medical profession.

Oh, that health problem back in the early 90's? A lot of it was exacerbated by too many of the wrong drugs given by too many doctors. If I had been given more input into what was being done and what I was taking, and the knowledge and power to give back the right input, to chose what I was taking and doing, knowing risks and benefits of each, what happened would have been so much less serious and over far quicker.

Why don't they just put their focus on labels and inspection that the stuff is what it says it is and does what it says it does and stop being a goddamn nanny and treating people like children and banning stuff or making it hard to get or giving it a reputation so that you're ashamed you are taking it? They let people drive cars, they are pretty risky, too. Sheesh. /rant

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I don't know why this kind of thing and so many others is so messed up.

I do think though, that it has a lot to do with the idea that we have a lot of dumbasses running things who won't put in the time and effort to figure out how to actually make this shit work.

The stupid system we have forces then to spend half their time raising campaign money. I'd much rather they change it and spend that time doing what it is they're getting paid for.

None of then actually ever spends even one minute on the details of this stuff except when it comes to making sure they arrange it so that there's a hedge for people who happen to donate to their political campaigns. And when they cast their (our) vote in the house or senate they have no clue what is actually in the legislation they just voted for.

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Sent to appropriate agencies and members of US Congress.

Thanks for this information.

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AS,
THANKS I AM NOW IN YOUR DEBT!

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Thanks for the heads up on this - rec'd and comment sent.

As a nation we have gone back and forth on this issue. Access to effective pain medication is critical. Without it, people suffer and kill themselves. It took a long fight to get to the current compromise of pain management contracts.

I am not denying that there is an illegal trade in these drugs - in fact in almost every drug. However, that is a complicated issue that will not be resolved by making even more complex access. Included in that complexity is lack of access to health care.

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RW,
THANKS I AM NOW IN YOUR DEBT!

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Hi, Just posted a comment there. I am a bit concerned that they would require the public to belong to an organization in order to receive their comments. It might be worth a call to make sure that they will give the least bit attention to general public comments.

My sister has fibromyalgia and over the last couple of years some changes in regulations limited her doctors ability to help her with her pain at times.

She had trouble getting into the doctor once as far as 'their' scheduling would allow and called her after hours to inform he that he was not allowed to prescribe medication after hours. She went to emergency room several times because of intense pain and they were literally abusive and cruel to her.
On a door in her clinic there is posted a notice that reads 'you have a right to have your pain managed' etc. but she has had to go through unnecessary suffering, emotional anxiety over the issue that seem to be cropping up around pain medications.

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Yeah, I have a friend whose bones are dissolving, and the pharmacists tend to be rude and belittling when he'd go to get his morphine.

I don't understand why. It's not like these poor, suffering people don't have to jump through hoops to get the scripts in the first place. It's a disgrace.

I thought I read a study about pain in America and how doctors under-prescribe pain meds.

It seems so cruel.

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Bwak,
THANKS! I AM NOW IN YOUR DEBT!!

Oh and in regards to your comment to steevo. There are currently no better suggestions! Well no better suggestions if you rule out sawing through a vertabrae and chipping away the bone that is pushing on the spinal cord. Especially when they say it will just start again in a couple of years!

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You have my deepest sympathy.

I guess I understand now why you are so kind and considerate to others.

(hugs)

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Hi Bwak:)

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hai again sync!

=D

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Narcotics are not effective in controlling chronic pain and are profoundly over-prescribed.

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So.... what's your suggestion?


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SDNS,
This is gonna sound rude or "snitty" or just plain mean and I REALLY don't mean for it too.

UNLESS you have experienced CONSTANT NEVER ENDING PAIN you don't know what you are talking about, and are just quoting talking points from others that don't have a clue.

I have dealt with this shit for over 13 years now and have yet to experience a day without at least a constant, always...ALWAYS there, pain. It's not always severe, debilitating pain but it is pain, always, always there.

I have tried everything starting with aspirin all the way through TENS and direct injections into my spine. the ONLY relief I get (and it is never complete relief) is with these evil medications.

Again, I hope this reply didn't post off as rude or as whining, because I sure didn't mean it that way.

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I don't think you are being rude or snitty. I am sorry you are in pain. I do know what pain is like, it is very complex and subjective. I am fortunate to have a very high pain tolerance. I also know narcotics are ineffective over the long term because I have patients that I regularly prescribe narcotics over the long term.

Does that make me a hypocrite? No -- I am always trying to find another way to treat my patients, but I am not a pain specialist. Pain is just not completely understood, but we do know a lot about it. I insist that my patients on chronic pain meds receive ongoing psychological counseling, because most chronic pain has a psychological origin. And even if it isn't psychological in origin, chronic pain will inevitably cause psychological problems.

Pain is in your head, all pain. You feel it in your brain. It is a learned response. If you have chronic pain, it is in your brain. If I cut off your finger, the pain you feel is in your brain. Psychotherapy can help a great deal.

Hopefully someday we will figure out how to control it. Until then you have my sympathy.

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Good luck to you.

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SDNS,
hahahaha... Now that was completely unfair.

I would however like to hear your stories about how the DEA and state boards treat you and you practice. I would put them to VERY good use, and NEVER mention your name, not even your screen name.

If you like my email is
tmcpac"theatsignyahoo"dot"com

I am good friends with my doc (cards, dinner with wives etc) and he has told me some things that are hard to fathom.

You have my address and I really do hope to hear from you. And again Sorry about the "tone"

For that matter I welcome anyone that has a story to tell on this issue FEEL FREE to ssend them my way.

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O¿O in the crowd, I will send you some email a little later. I don't really have any good stories to tell at the moment, but I did have the cops call me just a few days ago. A patient tried to forge my signature on a prescription, but didn't know my DEA number. A few months ago a patient got arrested in my waiting room. Another person was arrested for selling medicine that I had prescribed for him. I try to be shrewd about these sort of things, but I don't want to become jaded like some of my colleagues who simply refuse to give anyone pain medications.

In Wisconsin, doctors cannot put refills on schedule II drugs, but we can write multiple prescriptions at one visit, and post-date them. There is a 3 month limit, and the 3rd prescription must be filled within 60 days of the visit. However, most of the pain clinics that I am aware of refuse to do this sort of thing.

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Pain is in your head? Is that really what you meant to say? Just because you need a brain to register the pain, does not mean that PAIN IS IN YOUR HEAD! I have a suggestion for you that will perhaps enlighten you, and it will use your very own example:

Go and cut your finger off. Good. You can use a scalpel if you like. I'll wait.............

dum de dum dum...............

Wow! That took a long time. I know, I know, you had to clean up all that blood and you weren't expecting to because you thought that the whole thing would happen in your brain.

Anyhoo -- Tell us all the truth -- what is hurting? YOUR HEAD, OR THE STUMP OF YOUR FINGER????????

What an appallingly unempathetic response to chronic pain. If you are indeed someone who has patients who have the bad luck to depend on you for care, I really feel sorry for them!

Oh, by the way. Maybe if you visualize a new finger growing back -- you know -- using your head -- you'll get a brand new finger! Oh, never mind. I have a finger for you! See it?

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Actually, you don't know anything about me, so your opinion of me is completely meaningless.

Obviously as well, you lack the understanding to comprehend what I wrote.

And, I actually cut the tip of my finger off once by accident. Luckily, I only sliced most of the nail off right down to the bone, and some skin as well. Fortunately for me, I didn't damage my germinal matrix and a granuloma formed on my nail bed and when my nail grew back it pulled the cells that attach the nail to the finger back with it. My finger throbbed constantly for 3 months and also bled as the nail grew and pulled the granuloma with it. The tip of my finger was numb for a few years. Now however, there is only a small cosmetic anomoly, unless you look very closely you would never knew it happened. The pain is forgotten, only a vestige of memory remains.

Before you criticize me, go read a graduate level neuroanatomy book and spend some time with patients. You really don't know anything about which you write.

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I do know what I am talking about, and I only meant that telling someone who has chronic pain that it is in is in their head is a heartless thing to do. There are ways to help a patient deal with the psychological aspects of pain without making him/her feel as though you think it is all psycho-somatic.


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Here's the deal. Regardless of how pain is experienced in the body. It is real.

I was raised as a Christian Scientist so I was taught that I should be able to use mind over matter and prayer, etc. to overcome sickness and pain. The reality is we suffered through whatever illness or pain we experienced without ever receiving the care of a physician.

I do not discount that there are other things that can help pain but let's use the example of my sister.

She has fibromyalgia, she had her spine fused in her early twenties and was traumatized during the surgery because when she awoke in recovery she felt the full pain of the surgery take affect. They had given her morphene which does not work on her or me or my father for some reason. She broke two of her teeth from experiencing the intense pain causing even more of a trauma. She developed social anxiety disorder and is not longer able to function well enough to work.

She is on Medicaid and there are very few psychologists available in our entire state that work with medicaid and I am not sure that any of them have a good understanding of 'pain' and or fibromyalgia. The psychotherapists change constantly and she gets nowhere as far as getting relief from that type of treatment other than the one who gave her a fishing pole so she could go fishing as a meditative practice. She now feels traumatized by trying to get help from therapists. My sister is also the mother of an 8 year old girl.

So, it may be very easy to sit back whether a doctor or not as one not in this position and notice that there may be some more effective relief through other venues. Until those other methods are avialable to someone like my sister and until there are better systems and unless clear, real relief is found in other venues, I think it is sadistic and cruel to suggest that there is something wrong with helping people to manage their pain through meds.

Deal with the abuses and don't punish those who are managing pain 24 hours a day.

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What a terrible story There is an NPR (local) thing that I listen to when I am home on Saturday mornings called "The Peoples Pharmacy." Recently they had a guy who is now an MD at Johns Hopkins, but when he was a med student he had to drop out due to Fibromyalgia and now his entire practice is structured around it. He has a very interesting take on it (I have no association with him, and don't vouch for it, but The People's Pharmacy is based out of Duke University and is on the up & up). His website might be worth a look for your sister. It is: www.EndFatigue.com

His therapeutic approach is on the holistic side, but makes a lot of sense to me.

Hope you find this helpful.

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Thanks for the thought. She is pretty defensive at this point because of sooo many suggestions etc. from people. I'll bookmark the site if she opens up to something new:)

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Face, Thank you for championing this. I know that the even strongest of pain medications don’t always do it from a history of sometimes severe, sometimes chronic back pain (three damaged disks) and kidney stones. And I know that everyone has different tolerances. I've usually declined long term narcotic scripts as I want to avoid as much as I can, tho there have been many times I wish I'd decided otherwise.

I'm not a man to get emotional but I was doing just that reading what you wrote about the constant but less severe pain causing chronic suffering. I can relate so well and people around you don’t really “get it" or the doctors it seems (and mine lasted at most for 1 and ½ years at a stretch. I can’t even imagine 13years of that). I'm posting below about some recent encounters in this regard (a long story but I believe it relates). Thanks, again.

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I'm doing it.

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Done!

For those who haven't done it: it's easy, takes almost no time to do.

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O,
THANKS FOR THAT I am very much in your debt now.

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No, you don't owe me a thing. It was nothing. I hope it makes a difference though.

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I agree with artappraiser
Just Google “pharmaceutical companies drug cartels”

Legalizing the pharmaceutical drug cartel ... behaviour by the pharmaceutical companies based on what the market can bear.

Why would the pharmaceutical stand in the way or fight to keep pain meds off the shelves or in the Legal market place? Demand = higher profits.
Black Market prices are always more profitable.

FDA is like every other government agency, easily manipulated by corrupt lobbyists with an agenda.
Profit is Profit, pure and simple. Black market is untaxed. No Government oversight, No lawsuits. Who you going to sue, when you buy it on the black market? Are you going to come forward and admit you promoted a criminal enterprise?
Yet the money the illicit trade produces, finds it’s way not only in corrupting the Mexican Government, it finds it’s way into funding the American Election process as well.
Very well laundered, isn’t it?

Drug company motto “Your pain our gain” with No risk.

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Excessive government regulation does not repair poor enforcement. It leads to more regulation and less efficiency in regulation. Reduction in government regulatory practices would benefit the patients. Then again I am biased and do not wish my Cheerios regulated either.

I would venture that pharma, Doctors and patients are not behind this issue. They all benefit without it. I would say that our legal system and the litegious nature of our society may be the incentive to "do good" with yet another rule to keep the "sheeple" safe from themselves.

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P,
Exactly... You are exactly right. If you look through some of my older posts you will see a post about, what I like to call "The Pain Tax" and Lazy Law Enforcement.
It is amazing the hoops those that need treatment for pain have to jump through.
THANKS for that.

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Ok, I sent it in. I will next send something to my dem congressman and to Amy K.

One more obstacle between the doctor and the patient.

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2D,
THANKS! She may actually do something. So far I have called EVERY congressperson (all 435) and am working my way through all 100... er... uh... 99 Senators about the Pain Tax thing. THANKS for the help!!

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ok I sent it and hope it helps. Between me my better half and my stepson we use a lot of these medications and they are the only help we get my son is in later stages of diabeties and is in pain constantly my BH has arthrites in her neck and has pain everyday. and I have been on pain medication since I destoryed my shoulder there isnt a day go by Im not in pain. so It would be very bad if we couldnt get the medications that help two of us make it to work everyday.

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R,
Thanks for that and forward the info on or have your BH send in a comment too.

THANKS AGAIN!

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Hahahahaha, what a moron.

You wanted more government control, and you all got it. Good luck, dumb fucks.

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Thanks for sharing. Are you a pure libertarian, a knee-jerk conservative, or just a creep?

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Just a person that thinks it's hysterically ironic to hold the view that government should have more control over our lives, and only start to oppose that control once government's will is imposed on them.

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;

And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;

And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;

And then... they came for me... And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
- Martin Niemöller

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deep, but then, so is my uncle's pile of pig shit.

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And do you think we disagree? What control over personal lives is being proposed, except the one we are arguing to prevent?

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You implied that by being a libertarian, that my view was somehow flawed, which is absurd because when you're correct about something, but I digress:

Anyone that argues for more government control is an idiot. I was simply showing that anyone that voted for a Democrat was voting for more government, and this article on pain meds should show them why they are an idiot, and why our government must have its powers consolidated as they once were.

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Anyone arguing for no government control is an idiot. This "either or" bullshit of yours is simple minded. You know damn well without the law things would really go to shit. But you don't care about that because a good conservative knows they can just buy the government they want. No what you really hate is poor people getting some of your precious money just for being poor. And democracy allows that to happen. So it's a good guess you despise democracy too.

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Wow, you're an idiot. Go learn the definition of Libertarian. Trust me, this country was founded by Libertarians.

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CMN, this "you're an idiot" nonsense doesn't cut it. If you want to argue with Zeno, then do so rationally. Point out that there are two distinct kinds of law: common law and customary law. Tell him that things wouldn't go to shit so long as people enforced customary law. Tell him that common law is a one-size-fits-all system that is outdated and that we'd be served better through customary law--the kind based on rational expectations as opposed to the precedents determined by a singular mindset coming from a uniform class.

Do that if you want. But, please, let's elevate the argumentation above name-calling.

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Why should I? If he can not or will not understand the principles of a free republic on his own, why should I waste my time attempting to educate him?

Liberty and private property are not rights given by government, and therefore are not rights that should be taken by government. Anyone that doesn't understand these basic truths is not only a moron, but an enemy of every American that does believe in these truths.

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Liberty and private property rights are not given by government...

O.K. so you're arguing that the Lockean conception of natural rights is a fact. But you aren't correct unless you qualify the extent to which you mean 'private property'. Lock, obviously didn't want to see private property extended indefinitely. At some point, he believed that use was relevant in limiting private property--so that people would not accumulate massive amounts of wealth.

You are conflating libertarianism with corporatism--which it most certainly is not. And I'm sure that's why you were conned into voting for Bob Barr.

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Lock, obviously didn't = Locke obviously didn't

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> t some point, he believed that use was relevant in limiting private property--so that people would not accumulate massive amounts of wealth.

I believe this more applies to corporate/government monopolies more than any individual. When any corporation or individual is allowed to collude with the government to restrict another's free will, others' property is at risk. Example: eminent domain.

If a free person chooses to sell another free person any property or belonging, why should they be restricted from doing so?

If a free person happens to gain wealth through consentual and honest transactions, why should they be penalized?

Furthermore, if a company fails, why shouldn't the same free people that ran the company, and consequently caused its ruin, be held liable?

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I agree with your three questions.

But Locke's labor theory of property held that, the right to private property only extends until you are making someone else worse off. That applies to individuals just as it does to corporations (after all what is a corporation but a collection of individuals). See the Lockean Proviso.

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> ut Locke's labor theory of property held that, the right to private property only extends until you are making someone else worse off.

And restricting the right to acquire said property is making "someone else" worse off.

Eminent Domain is a perfect example of how the government having the right to arbitrarily restrict a citizen's right to property will always make said citizen worse off.

Further, you're citing Nozick, not Locke.

Locke stated:
"It being by him removed from the common state of nature hath placed it in, it hath by his labour something annexed to it that excludes the common right of other men. For this labour being the unquestionable property of the labourer, no man but he can have a right to what that is once joined to, at least where there is enough, and as good, left in common for others."

Goods are traded for money. Money does not spoil, and is easily tradeable, and there's plenty for all who will take the time to labour. Yet even further, Locke explicitly states this about farm produce.

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And starving children have a fair amount of farm product?

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If someone's child is starving, it must be attributed to the parents. If the parents are so stupid that they can not feed their own child, then I attribute the loss to natural selection.

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Forgot to cite that, paragraph 28 in the second treatise.

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No government control is Anarchy. Only a moron would advocate Anarchy.

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And only a moron would regurgitate Ayn Rand.

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Never actually read her work. Great minds must just think alike.

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Actually, her epistemic assumptions are quite tragic. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1577240456/praxeologynet-20

It's probably a safe bet that you've been influenced by someone who did read her (Ron Paul, Bob Barr, etc.)

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John Locke, Thomas Jefferson, and Thomas Paine were all born and died before Ayn Rand, I believe.

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To my knowledge, she never cites any of them as influences. She was most heavily influenced by Aristotle and Nietzsche.

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And yes, as Aristotle did over 2000 years ago, I despise democracy. Fortunately, we live in a republic.

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... a democratic republic.

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The only thing remotely democratic about our country is voting for representatives, and in some states, ballot measures. Otherwise, we have a full blown republican government.

A democratic government can not succeed. "Mob Rule" will always end up in a cycle of the poor destroying the rich, until there is nobody left to destroy; at that point, the democracy collapses.

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The only thing remotely democratic about our country is voting for representatives...

So our country is not a pure republic as you were arguing?

Mob rule will always end up in a cycle of the poor destroying the rich...

(a) if this is, as you say, nearly a "fullblown republican government," then what's the worry about mob rule? (b) Are you assuming that the rich are necessarily the most productive and creative?

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> (a) if this is, as you say, nearly a "fullblown republican government," then what's the worry about mob rule? (b) Are you assuming that the rich are necessarily the most productive and creative?

A) I'm pointing out that a democratic government can not exist because it will always destroy itself.

B) Yes on most productive and creative. And intelligent.

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Wow. So being rich necessarily means your productive, creative, and intelligent?

I know--personally--over a hundred counter-examples. You never met a rich idiot?

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Being rich means your = you're

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Or a starving artist?

LOL

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Exactly!

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Idiots don't stay rich for long. Look at the trend on lottery winners; usually broke again in 4-8 years.

Aside from that, to be consistently wealthy you must have earned wealth. Rich people keep doing things that make them rich, and poor people keep doing the things that made them poor in the first place.

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Or, they just have a consistent allowance from someone else who is rich.

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Why shouldn't wealthy parents give their children money again?

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You called somebody dumb fucks. Yes pure libertarianism is flawed, because it fails to ever occur.

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What do you mean by "pure" libertarianism?

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It actually happened once in a country called the United States of America a little over 200 years ago. Should try reading about it.

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Iceland between the 10th and 13th centuries is a better example.

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I REALLY didn't want to wade into this shit BUT... this new regulation was proposed back in late November of 08. Just so you KNOW that the election HAD NOTHING TO DO WIT IT. It was "Bumbles" administration that started this complete bullshit.

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Who said Republicans weren't just as bad as Democrats? They both want control over my life, just in different ways.

Any person that blindly follows without question either party is an enemy of the US. Liberals tend to follow the Democrats more often than not; only the religious sect of conservatives really follow rank & file.

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Furthermore, you're a liar. The FDA notified Pharma manufacturers in February of 2009 of it's intent to -possibly- regulate some opiates, and that it wanted a risk assessment. Of course, you know the FDA is going to start regulating once it gets those risk assessments. I know you want P-Bo to be the Messiah, but he is not. He is just as evil as Bush was.

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OK, I did it, face! I hope it helps!

PS, I hope no one feeds it (above me).

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It's wrong to point out that you want it to be OK for the Government to control other people's lives, just not your own because you're poor?

What a moron.

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OK, I confess. I am feeding an ugly troll:

Firstly, I am not poor. Secondly I don't want the government to "control other people's lives" like those (like you) who want to tell people whom they can marry and what medical procedures they can have. Thirdly, patients should not have to jump through hoops to get needed medication. Fourthly, I really don't care if people abuse pain medication as long as they don't drive cars at the same time.

And finally, people who repeatedly call others "morons" often need to look in the mirror to see about whom they are actually speaking.

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> Firstly, I am not poor.

False.

> Secondly I don't want the government to "control other people's lives"

Yes, you do. You voted Democrat. More Government = more Government control.

> like those (like you) who want to tell people whom they can marry and what medical procedures they can have.

This doesn't even apply, because I've never supported the government mandate on either of these issues.

> Thirdly, patients should not have to jump through hoops to get needed medication. Fourthly, I really don't care if people abuse pain medication as long as they don't drive cars at the same time.

This is how all Libertarians and most conservatives view this particular issue. I don't understand why you think you're in disagreement here.

> And finally, people who repeatedly call others "morons" often need to look in the mirror to see about whom they are actually speaking.

I think you're even more of a moron for pretending to disagree with a person based purely off of what you think they believe as opposed to what they do beleive (or in my case, what happens to be the truth).

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You are the ones making ass

umptions!

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(> Secondly I don't want the government to "control other people's lives"

Yes, you do. You voted Democrat. More Government = more Government control.)

CMN, this is not necessarily true. Many left-libertarians are against the use of force--as a matter of ethics. Yet, they vote Democratic because the two party system is the existing institution. It is seen--to many of them--as a pragmatic response to a no-win situation. Left-libertarians do not want more government control, but vote for Democrats because Republicans are much more authoritarian than Democrats.

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I guess it matters what your priorities are. I vote based on my conviction that Government should have minimal power over my life.

I can see if one is struggling with gay marriage or abortion voting democrat. It'd be impossible for me because of the higher taxation and generally more interference from the government though.

In short, our federal government should *only* exist to protect us from threats, uphold our constitution, and to act as a mediator between states. There is no service the federal government can provide us that the private sector or state government can not do better.

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There is no service the federal government can provide us that the private sector or state government can not do better.

If you believe that, then why do you believe a federal government should exist?

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What about building roads and bridges?

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Private companies could do it more effectively and efficiently. But they would still need public support--something the government can ensure. Private companies cannot necessarily ensure public support for projects like roads and bridges.

One argument that gets around the problem you raise is this: all roads and bridges would be funded by toll booths. The money that you pay in the toll booths would be equivalent to those you pay through taxes. Although, it does seem like it would be inconvenient to stop more often to pay tolls. But some argue that you could purchase plans so that you wouldn't have to be slowed to pay tolls.

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That plan makes for some very expensive country roads to drive. One pool. spread the risks/costs.

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Yeah, that makes sense. Otherwise you'd have free rider problems. But, one way around that: the price of a car could include the price of roads. That spreads the risks/costs pretty well. And doesn't spread it to those who don't drive cars.

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What about the trucks that deliver goods that everyone does enjoy?

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The companies which own the trucks would pay a certain percentage for the roads and maintenance.

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And you think this would be easier to administer, and fairer than just distributing the costs across society?

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Easier to administer? I don't know, but I don't see why not. Fairer? I would think so--right now, everyone pays equally for the roads. A truck driver pays to use the roads as much money as a bed-ridden citizen. Wouldn't it be more fair for the truck driver and his company to pay a good deal more for the road than someone who never used it?

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I'd go for a national sales tax. Those consuming the most, pay the most for the highway infrastructure.

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That makes sense. But their consumption could have nothing to do with the roads. What about instances where the consumption has nothing to do with the particular project--if say X became obsolete. Then we'd still be funding X, not because it is an inelastic good, but because those producing X have contracts with the government.

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This is the last time I try to draw out the fallacies in CMN's reasoning while you're in the room satya. ;)

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:)

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Sooooooo, for whom did you vote?

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I voted for Bob Barr.

Not that it matters.

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Paging Cyants.

(Bob Barr? LOLOLOLOL)

We got another fake libertarian here.

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What does this even mean?

Since I oppose both parties that I shouldn't vote for who I believe has the best vision for our country at heart?

Do you really believe there's any difference between Republicans and Democrats when it comes to Big Government?

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Yes.

Do you really think Barr is a libertarian?

(guffaw)

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Hahahah!!! Bwak!!!!

Seriously, CMN, if Barr is a libertarian then George W Bush is a liberal.

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What did George Bush do that *wasn't* part of the liberal philosophy of expanding government "for our own good?"

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Your "argument" takes this form:
liberals expand government
gwb expanded government
therefore gwb is a liberal.

If A then B.
If C then B.
Therefore if C then A.

See anything wrong with this "logic"?

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Make no mistake, Obama is Bush Light. The kool-aid is still flowing.

Now, there's nothing wrong with this logic. Lets look a little closer at it:

If person 1 believes in agenda 1, they are "progressive."
If person 2 believes in agenda 1, they are progressive.
Therefore, if the only point of contention is the means to the end of agenda 1, there is no difference in electing either person 1 or 2. The agenda is still the same, and it does not coincide with my agenda.

Thus, my argument that voting for anyone that has an agenda that coincides with my agenda stands valid. To do otherwise would be foolish.

I admit, I should've used the term "progressive" in the first place, because liberal can be a bit misleading. People that think there's a difference between Obama and Bush get confused easily.

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CVD,
THANKS for that!

Speaking ot "it", now I could be wrong, but doesn't that avatar kinda look like a child? Come to think of it that almost looks pornographic! Hmmm... think we should report "IT". I think I will. That "Report Abuse" button is looking good at the moment.

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Yes, it does look like a child, but I think it betrays only a childish mind (without the inherent honesty). It's (the troll's) assumption that only the poor can care about others demonstrates such a basic ignorance that trying to explain it is the same as trying to explain physics to an idiot. In fact, it is exactly the same.

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Will you please prove to me how humans do anything that is not for their own self benefit?

When you understand that it's not just humans that only work to benefit themselves, but all animals, you'll be one step closer to truly understanding that the poor are poor because they don't have the wisdom to make the decisions to benefit themselves in the best way possible.

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Actually, the sign she's holding up in the picture says "I'm a slut."

That's why it says "Honesty" underneath.

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SENT:

Don't complicate the lives of people with chronic pain in favor of protecting
drug abusers. There are better ways. It is ridiculous to require multiple
doctor visits for re-fills for a known pain problem.

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I think the statement you should be making is more "Give people the drugs they want or need; restricting access to drugs is a waste of time. People are going to get them either way, and it hurts people truly in need of chronic pain relief."

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Like defense spending, safety laws tend to ratchet up, rarely relaxing.

Freud could dose up with coke, Graham Greene sorely missed his opium nights in Indochina, and people now just trust the unreadable fine print on cold medications, while they inadvertently double or triple up on analgesics, decongestants, and/or antihistamines that make up the combo cold remedies.

Here's what I posted there:

"The risk to society is low enough to make onerous refill restrictions unneeded if the doctor can vouch for the patient. This should be allowed with no extra liability for the doctor, beyond normal practice standards."

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I didn't read all of the comments, but here is mine.

I sent an email to them and asked them to please punish DOCTORS who fling around Rx's instead of real medical advice.

I believe that once the medical community joins the rest of us and converts to a digital, networked operating environment, abusers of pain meds will be easily identified. If a doctor prescribes pain meds for a patient, it is THEIR responsibility to monitor and recommend future therapy.

The group that should be targeted to oppose this measure is the medical community. They should come out full force with the message that they have taken an oath and that they will help their patients and accept punishment, including loss of license for repeated abuses of the system.

The FDA upset me when they banned bio-identical hormones. So instead of taking natural estrogen that is identical to what the ovaries I used to have produced, I have to continue taking hormones created from horse urine (YUMMY!), which has been directly linked to the formation of breast cancer. I have been taking these things since I was 11 years old when I lost my ovaries to cancer.

I guess the FDA doesn't really care if I have boobs... or if I die... or if you and millions of others have to live in pain every day and night. Some "holier than thous" have obviously seen the light and have decided to save us all from the risks of pain pills.

I'm getting mad now so time to stop thinking about this, but I will forward your message.

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Good grief - aren't guns known to reliably kill people, too? The latest GAO findings on terrorists and guns reports that out of 963 attempts to purchase weapons by persons on the terrorist watch list, they were successful an amazing 865 times. Yet, anything remotely resembling the Risk Evaluation and Mitigation Strategies for guns, like those that are under consideration for opioid use, would be DOA in D.C.

Unlike guns, opioid use by those with legitimate problems and prescriptions, is thought to be so risky that draconian regulations are required in order to ensure the benefits of these drugs continue to outweigh certain risks, according to the FDA summary.

Can someone explain this to me? Are these people in the FDA nucking futz?

I'm on my way to comment, Face.

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Um, That is way too obvious! Them guns are garunteeeed in the constitution (which most of these gun nuts have never bothered to read), but PAIN medicines! well, that goes against, um ... well I don't know, but it must go against something republican (as long as the republicans can GET those drugs if they want them, that is).

Anyway, the republicans are standing at attention, waiting for a talking point blurb to come out so they will know where to stand on this, um ....issue.