Simplicity Sans Sophistry
I don't care how many well placed and highly paid journalists (or complicit politicians), try to rationalize away the biggest crime I personally witnessed IN MY LIFETIME. It won't work.
Torture is illegal and it's a war crime. You can't make it legal by Presidential fiat even if you want to. Bush was aware of this early on, which is why he LIED about the ONGOING torture that was being run out of the basement of the WHITE HOUSE.
It is deeply abhorrent to engage in any level of support for such nonsense. It shows a profound lack of historical and political perspective. If I'd been insane or stupid enough to have supported it in any manner here-to-fore, I'd likely have to play such sophist rhetorical games to keep the public from labeling me as the pariah I'd surely be. This explains nearly 100 percent of the support in favor of letting bygones be bygones. Well dog gone, it just doesn't wash.
The sooner the prosecutions begin, the better off HUMANITY is in the long run. It's just that BASIC. The fact that I've had to post all over the freaking web an alliterative meme highlighting legal support for the TORTURING of TODDLERS TESTICLES in an attempt to bring SOME awareness to the barbarity of these bastards, pains me greatly.
Enjoy.
Torture is illegal and it's a war crime. You can't make it legal by Presidential fiat even if you want to. Bush was aware of this early on, which is why he LIED about the ONGOING torture that was being run out of the basement of the WHITE HOUSE.
It is deeply abhorrent to engage in any level of support for such nonsense. It shows a profound lack of historical and political perspective. If I'd been insane or stupid enough to have supported it in any manner here-to-fore, I'd likely have to play such sophist rhetorical games to keep the public from labeling me as the pariah I'd surely be. This explains nearly 100 percent of the support in favor of letting bygones be bygones. Well dog gone, it just doesn't wash.
The sooner the prosecutions begin, the better off HUMANITY is in the long run. It's just that BASIC. The fact that I've had to post all over the freaking web an alliterative meme highlighting legal support for the TORTURING of TODDLERS TESTICLES in an attempt to bring SOME awareness to the barbarity of these bastards, pains me greatly.
Enjoy.
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I agree. How long before some other country with balls will charge Bush and Cheney with war crimes like Pinochet? It would be exciting to see him arrested and face a trial in some other country; however, I doubt that he will ever travel ouside of the USA unless its to Saudi Arabia where the hand-holding sheiks won't let him be prosecuted.
January 21, 2009 6:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why should we wait for some third world country to take action? That's an abrogation of our civic responsibilities and cedes moral direction to those OUTSIDE our country. We're better than that.....I'm HOPING.
Enjoy.
January 21, 2009 6:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
It is being reported today that the "United Nations Rapporteur responsible for torture" stated that "with George W. Bush’s head of state immunity now terminated, the new government of Barack Obama was obligated by international law to commence a criminal investigation into Bush’s torture practices."
http://www.harpers.org/archive/2009/01/hbc-90004250
January 21, 2009 7:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, that's the law. Glenn Greenwald went into that at length here:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/01/18/prosecutions/index.html
And see this as well:
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/01/20/turley/index.html
As soon as Obama was inaugurated and bush left public office, he inherited a whirlwind. The sooner Eric Holder is appointed, the sooner he can appoint someone to look into war crimes. Justice must be served.
Thank you for that link.
Thanks for your link.
January 21, 2009 8:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
The sooner Eric Holder is appointed, the sooner he can appoint someone to look into war crimes
Yes, TheraP, and hence the week-long delay manufactured by the Republicans who are, no doubt, scrambling to figure out how to obstruct Holder after he becomes Attorney General (which he will).
We have, as citizens, a moral obligation to demand an investigation. If we do not, our country is irreparably weakened.
January 22, 2009 12:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Amen, sister! To all of it!
January 22, 2009 12:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am telling you CTV, there is real fear out there and the Republicans are getting a lot of from their own real constituents, the corporate pigs with the bucks who fund their coffers. So the reps, since they have no power in the House and only a modicum of power in the Senate, have to make noise. And they are allowed some parliamentary moves to hold up some nominations.
Then they can say--hey we tried.
They managed to hold up Clinton for 24-48 hours.
94-2 was the vote.
Holder will probably get in with a score of 80-20.
January 22, 2009 12:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
They're between a rock and a hard place. Which is precisely where they should be. Holder's going to get confirmed, investigations are going to occur, and they're going to look like the party of old. As in aged, and stale.
And Cornyn AND Kyl just don't realize what a profound contrast they are to our new president. Old and white vs young and dynamic. They could have gotten great political mileage out of cooperating with Obama--that would have appealed to independents. But no: they've chosen the path that the "base" wants, and I think (besides the fact that opposing investigations is simply indefensible) it's a political mistake.
January 22, 2009 12:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
I can understand Obama's reluctance to try Bush and Cheney and part of me has always agreed with it, just as I agreed with Ford when he pardoned Nixon (don't throw anything at me, please!), but Iam in even greater agreement with you that 1) no crime should go unpunished and 2) other countries would see it as a definite sign that the US was only wrong under one President's term, i.e., it's not an ongoing thing.
Just having Obama shut down Gitmo is a definite sign but I don't think it's enough.
January 21, 2009 7:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Great post!
It's not just common sense to investigate these crimes. It's the law! We must do it. But it seems some people simply don't want us to obey the law.
January 21, 2009 8:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
As you described above, it's coming down to being on the right side of history, not the law. International law will proceed even if Obama does not. Looks a lot better if we get out in front of the inevitable, no?
January 22, 2009 1:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, definitely. Preemptive justice! (not preemptive war)
January 22, 2009 1:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have a few disagreements with this post.
First, I diagree with the hyperbole. Ratchet it down a bit. Torture is not the biggest crime in your lifetime, unless you were born after 2003. The invasion and occupation of Iraq is the biggest American crime of a generation. You are skewing proper historical perspective in order to score cheap points.
Second, your demands are shortsighted. Torture became an SOP for treatment of detained enemy combatants early in Bush's term and remained SOP for years. Anyone associated with detainment and interrogation is suspect. And all of this is classified for national security purposes.
In other words, it is a can of worms that must be opened carefully. President Obama can not be seen as persecuting the military. So any investigation must be top down in nature. There have to be hearings, presentation of evidence, and a fair account given for history. This has to build until the public outcry is a crescendo.
There are always PROBLEMS in the aftermath of an extremist government. The biggest problem is elements of that old government in the miltary, civilian, and media sectors that continue to pose a threat. A fair hearing must be given by presenting any and all records pertinent to torture policy out in the open for public scrutiny. Let the public make the decision, so that the will of the people forms the impetus for justice. Making President Obama the impetus makes a wedge issue out of torture and will disrupt the function of government.
You are wrong to want prosecutions to happen immediately without a public reckoning. The Obama administration would be (justifiably) labeled as witch hunters for pursuing the criminal angle of torture. You are right that torture is a crime against humanity. But the American public has to demand this justice and the administration must acquiesce. That is the drama that needs to play out for the proper purging of a political illness.
January 22, 2009 3:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
The writer said it was the biggest crime that he'd experienced. Since you don't know anything about the writer's experience beyond what the writer conveys, you have no basis for making this statement. Second, it's entirely possible that the torture of prisoners at Guatanamo preceded the Iraq invasion, which makes your critism moot.
and seem somewhat contradictory. If something is classified for national security purposes, then how is that information going to be released, and a "fair account given for history"?I disagree that the Administration has to wait for a great public outcry for action to be taken on this. People have a romanticized notion about torture, fueled in part by "24" (although the numbers in today's WAPost were encouraging). There may not be a great public outcry until investigations get under way, and the public starts to learn more fully what was done in its name.
January 22, 2009 3:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ummm...CT... that which is classified can be unclassified. The key is why and how. That is why I advocated for a top-down approach. There is nothing contradictory in what I wrote.
Second, the writer said "personally witnessed in my lifetime." We all personally witnessed the invasion and occupation of Iraq... which has resulted in the death/displacement of millions. My point stands.
And your last paragraph agrees with me. I am saying that investigations must occur before criminalization. The public must say, "that's criminal!" in order for the prosecution to stick and not undermine the DoD. Make the information public, and then implement criminal proceedings.
January 22, 2009 4:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
personally witnessed in my lifetime."
Thanks for the correction. It was a poor paraphrase on my part. However, it doesn't really change my point. You don't know that this writer didn't personally witness torture. Certainly it seems unlikely, but you, zipperupus, don't know that, unless you know this person outside of the blogosphere. That's what I was trying to convey.
January 22, 2009 4:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
I grant you that... I don't know. But I do know that even if he witnessed a particularly grisly session with a Spanish Inquisitor, it does not hold a candle to the invasion, destruction and occupation of a sovereign nation. I was simply asking for more perspective and less hyperbole. It is the whole "THIS IS THE WORST THING EVER!!!" rhetoric that foments cognitive dissonance.
January 22, 2009 4:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think we need a dose of hyperbole every now and then, so that we don't become so distanced from the reality at hand.
But I agree that too much of it can be counterproductive, and furthermore, can warp one's perspective more than excessive detachment. If everything is the WORST, "worst" loses all meaning.
The "which is worse" debate is not easily resolved, I think.
January 22, 2009 5:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
I hear you... I just had to point it out this time because there is a noticeable rush to punish torturers for crimes against humanity without an ear for history. The Obama administration would be undermined by the Pentagon if criminal proceedings move too quickly. We have a paramilitary in this country that believes in the holy virtue of their actions, and there are enough deluded or ambivalent citizens out there who will go along with the arguments of the paramilitary.
You don't take a loaded weapon apart without unloading the weapon first. The intelligence community is that loaded weapon.
January 22, 2009 5:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Short comment as I'm running. I think the Principals are the ones to be investigated. For a lot of reasons. But not the folks below - with the exception of people, like Yoo, who rationalized torture.
January 22, 2009 5:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
I will concede that starting a fake war may supersede even torture as a war crime. We can start on that one first if you want.
Last time I checked, the Pentagon and the intelligence community served the President in his role as Commander in Chief, and not the other way around. Lot of people saying 'don't rush'....but exactly what they feel is a prudent time-frame is unstated. The sooner the better.
There's no hyperbole too profound to describe the outlaw actions of the previous administration.
Enjoy.
January 22, 2009 5:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm enjoying!
January 22, 2009 5:29 PM | Reply | Permalink