« Weekend Muse | Ticia's Blog | Three Step Dance »

Reframing the Abortion Question


In place of another recursive exchange over a woman's right to choose, I am wondering how you might weigh in on this set of questions, fellow blog mates:

       To what extent is our right to choose being responsibly exercised by the generation of American women born after the seminal Roe v. Wade decision? 

        Is a woman's choice entirely, forever, or unimpeachably private?  Are there not individual, familial, or societal factors to be included in an intelligent matrix  for defining a socially responsible choice to abort? Put differently, what constitutes a responsible exercise of choice?  Have you or someone you know chosen to abort?  Knowing what you know now, would you/they still have done so?  What resources would you offer  to those considering abortion to better inform their decisions?

       To what degree is it a woman's responsibility to take conscious care that she does not conceive, given that she and her partner already know that they will not choose to raise a child at the present time -- or carry a baby to term?  Is adoption made viable when patients are counseled about their options? Should it be? What do men feel when abortion happens in their lives?

       I wonder if we might create a wise forum around  such questions, pooling our insights, research, and experience. Looking forward to your thoughts and feelings.

 

       Best, as ever,

       Tish

      


30 Comments

| Leave a comment
user-pic
Is a woman's choice entirely, forever, or unimpeachably private?

Yes.

user-pic

Thanks for weighing in, Orlando.

user-pic

YES! Period and end of discussion.

"Is a woman's choice entirely, forever, or unimpeachably private?(1) Are there not individual, familial, or societal factors to be included in an intelligent matrix for defining a socially responsible choice to abort? Put differently, what constitutes a responsible exercise of choice? Have you or someone you know chosen to abort? Knowing what you know now, would you/they still have done so? What resources would you offer to those considering abortion to better inform their decisions?(2)
[Emphasis mine]

Tish, if someone answers "YES!" to your first question,(1), then answering your subsequent questions undoes her unimpeachable, permanent, forever, entirely PRIVATE decision.

The whole idea of center a woman's decision regarding her reproductive choices in the inherent constitutional right to privacy is the, um, PRIVACY part. Her decision is private. And the privacy extends in both directions -- whether or not she chooses to conceive and the reasons and methods associated with it. You cannot -- as has been tried -- counsel her out of her decision and into another.

If it is a woman's right to choose, it ain't nobody's business but her own.


user-pic

Sorry... Ticia... not "Tish" ... (that's what happens when you get hooked on phonics)

user-pic

I am a moderate I guess. But a fearful one. Roe v Wade was one of the greatest decisions every handed down by our Supreme Court, and it was mind boggling. I was in Law school and no one saw it coming. And it was the Republican appointed Powell who had for years represented the single greatest care facility in the world, the Mayo Clinic who engineered it and Warren Burger went along. Both from Minnesota--the Minnesota Twins they were called.

First three months really Orlando's test.

Second three months, the state gets some input.

Last three months, the state gets a lot of input.

A long decision and watered down a bit by subsequent decisions, but not much. If Obama had not been elected, I would have bet it would be narrowed or overruled.

Technology has changed much in these three decades. A lot.

Better birth control devices, biology however you categorize. This day after pill but I have not seen the clinical tests or follow ups since its introduction.

Now the scary part. I am a man. I have real trouble telling women, you can or can't do this or that with your own body.

To guys I say, goddamn it take personal responsibility in this.

Child support alone, just that issue, could be written in no less than a thousand pages to really give it full review.

Child custody alone---wow.

Planning before you have a child. yes. money. space--where will the baby sleep during the first three months, the second three.....

Who gets up and checks on the baby?

This is so damn complicated. You just cannot be McCain putting quotes around the words health of the mother. For chrissakes.

The end of my rant Ticia. I have never seen you around here. Welcome.

People have to be responsible for their baby making machines--both of them.

user-pic

below

user-pic

"And it was the Republican appointed Powell who had for years represented the single greatest care facility in the world, the Mayo Clinic ..."

Actually it was Harry Blackmun

user-pic

REFG, thanks for stopping in.

Supreme Court Majority Opinion, written by justice Harry Blackman, read as follows: “the detriment that the state would impose upon the pregnant woman by denying this choice altogether is apparent. Maternity, or additional offspring may force upon the woman a distressful life and future. Psychological harm may be imminent. Mental and physical health may be taxed by childcare. There is also the distress for all concerned associated with the unwanted child and there is the problem with bringing the child into a family already unable psychologically and otherwise to care for it.”

All 9 Justices deciding Roe V. Wade were male.

user-pic

Yeah it has been so long, I have lost so many neuro receptors. hahahahahhaah. Caught me. Burger had been the vote at the 52 convention that gave Ike the nomination and he was appointed DC Fed Judge and moved up from there. Any rate both of our Minnesota twins did just fine as repubs.

user-pic

My good friend DickDay reminds me of another point: I do not see persons eager to reframe, refocus, revise, remake or repeal Roe v. Wade musing on the "irresponsibility" of male reproductive choice. For example, let's reverse the discussion:

1) To what extent is our right to choose being responsibly exercised by the generation of American MEN born after the seminal Roe v. Wade decision?

2) Is a MAN'S choice entirely, forever, or unimpeachably private?

3) Are there not individual, familial, or societal factors to be included in an intelligent matrix for defining a socially responsible MAN'S choice to USE A CONDOM?

4) Put differently, what constitutes a MAN'S responsible exercise of choice to use a condom?

5) Have you or some MAN you know chosen to USE A CONDOM?

5a) Knowing what you know now, would you/they still have done so USED A CONDOM?

5b) What resources would you offer to those considering USING A CONDOM to better inform their decisions?

6) To what degree is it a MAN'S responsibility to take conscious care that HE does not CAUSE A WOMAN TO CONCEIVE, given that HE and HIS partner already know that they will not choose to raise a child at the present time -- or carry a baby to term?

7) Is USING A OONDOM made viable when MALE patients are counseled about their options? Should it be?

8) What do WOMEN feel when CONDOM USE happens in their lives?

9) Should CONDOM USE be regulated or restricted? Should CONDOMS and CONDOM related products be sold over the counter? Should there be an age limit on who can buy CONDOMS? Should there be parental notification and parental consent for young MEN who wish to buy and or use CONDOMS?

user-pic

Thanks for the welcome and especially for the input. Any thoughts on the public funding angle?

user-pic

This is health care. This is the care of the woman.
I am not a doctor, I did represent many doctors. I only got along with the few female doctors I represented. but If a doctor says look, we need to perform an abortion in the interest of the health of the woman. It is health care.

Now, in the first trimester? I would not be against it. That is in a single payor system. But I would not be crushed if the answer was no and the woman had to seek private funds for the procedure. But money wise, the abortion is cheaper than healthcare for the child, so the private wolves who make money off a system that should not be making money would certainly wish the abortion to be performed.

I do not think that flies politically unless there are some other health factors at issue.

I am looking stupid here I think.

user-pic

Muy complicado. Btw, in a managed health care framework, then, at the other end of life's spectrum, could euthanasia be oneday considered defensibly "cheaper" than health care for older adults? Man.

user-pic

I just wish to clarify something here. I did not say that abortion should be looked upon as a cost saving device. But the whores who own health care in the country would. It is only logical. It is wrong, but it is economically logical.

And that goes hand in hand with the issue of euthanasia.

Really, this is why private health insurance is ridiculous in this day and age. I mean jughead on mornin joke says that if we had universal health care everyone would be getting MRIs all the time. Of course that pig could get an MRI whenever he wishes.

The private pigs that own the system now certainly do not give all insureds mris.
We are letting the dollar decide moral issues and it is wrong.

user-pic

Thanks, I understood you to mean that in your previous comment. Economic logic (at least the linear version) seems spurious these days, d'ya think?

user-pic

Are you the Ticia from the before times?

user-pic

Larry, yes, good to see you. Thoughts?

user-pic

We sometimes like to think that we are a very dynamic society where our thinking changes more rapidly than in previous societies, sometimes even matching the modern pace of growth in scientific and technical knowledge. In fact I find that the “thinking” in this society is slow to progress and even retrograde compared to both contemporary societies in Europe and Asia and in historical societies like those in the Middle Ages or ancient Rome. My conclusion is that I consider myself to be living in a profoundly illiberal setting. I approach this topic you have raised with that in mind as I submit my observations here.

The whole argument over “when life begins” isn’t carried out in some laboratory setting at the CDC or the NIH. Nor has it benefited much from the exercise of practical reasoning like Law or Philosophy. This argument can be reduced to two very old notions. The first is Aristotle’s test for the presence of life – immanent activity. Simply understood he meant that a living creature is a thing that moves itself as opposed, for example, a rock which only moves when acted upon from outside. Aristotle would have a hard time with “life begins at conception” since sperm and ova are already alive. In fact the carrot or the sausage that I ate and metabolized into a sperm was alive. So when does life begin? Given a modern setting, Aristotle’s consideration of this question might actually be helpful, even progressive.

The other old notion is the work of St. Thomas Aquinas. His rather unsophisticated application of Aristotle to Christian Theology forces us to discuss matters like “when life begins” with Aristotelian Thomistic principles which, while amazing historical artifacts, are fundamentally flawed and inadequate. But make no mistake about it. We carry on this debate as if it were the 13th century and the world was just now witnessing the birth of Humanism with its considerations of things like the inherent rights of the individual. I think it is important to recognize that we live in a world much like the Medieval Spain of Fernando de Rojas (“La Celestina”) or Maria de Zayas where the very humanity of women is still in open dispute.

On the more practical level, one could be forgiven for thinking that this is a very dynamic time for debates about women’s place in society. If you were to read a book* on, say, the first four centuries of the modern era (Anno Domini) in Rome, you would find that the pace and productivity of their debates in Law and social morality regarding the place of women outstrips anything we have recently witnessed. In truth this debate in my three score years has barely moved from the question of whether or not a woman has an inherent moral autonomy equal to the one that I, as a male, both covet and would never relinquish. It is hardly even an open question. Rather it is a brutish argument of “yea” or “nay.” The psychologists, the moralists, the poets and the spiritual leaders like Martin Luther King Jr. must await some long in the future invitation to the conversation.

I present all of this droll commentary to set the stage for expressing my view on this subject. I cannot wait upon the current, anachronistic discourse on the subject of a woman’s autonomy. For me women are equals. If they have a difficult life choice to make, I am there to support them and, if possible, be helpful to them. “Everything that is serious is difficult and everything is serious.” (Rilke) That’s about all I know. I trust a woman brings to “everything” at least as much as I do. So I listen to them and let them tell me what I can do for them. I like Aristotle but I like a living woman more.

* Women and the Law in the Roman Empire: A Sourcebook on Marriage, Divorce and Widowhood by Ju Evans Grubbs

user-pic

Hi Ticia, welcome home! It's good to see you.

To what extent is our right to choose being responsibly exercised by the generation of American women born after the seminal Roe v. Wade decision?

Compared to every other Western country, the abortion rate in the US is high, but it has slowly trended downward, despite the conservative idiot politicians that have made access to birth control difficult, especially for the poor.

Put differently, what constitutes a responsible exercise of choice?

Does anyone already born have a right to attach themselves physically to my body against my will in order to ensure their own survival? The answer is no, of course not. That person has the right to life, but the fact that for continued life the person needs the continued use of my body does not establish a fact that he has a right it. Extrapolate this to the unborn and consider that there is no difference between choice and responsible choice. The choice is whatever the woman says it is.**

Having said that, the responsible exercise of choice in terms of abortion would seem to be when the fetus is viable and there are no extenuating factors in the health or safety of either the woman or the fetus. However, such a situation is extremely rare according to the CDC, so it's hard to see how it affects society much, if at all. (I don't have the link handy, but I find it if you want it.)

Have you or someone you know chosen to abort? Knowing what you know now, would you/they still have done so? What resources would you offer to those considering abortion to better inform their decisions?

Yes, I've had an abortion, and without a doubt I'd do it again. One third of the women in the US have had an abortion. By the time a woman is unintentionally pregnant, there aren't too many other resources to offer that will change the situation.:-) More resources are needed at the front end of the deal, so to speak.

To what degree is it a woman's responsibility to take conscious care that she does not conceive, given that she and her partner already know that they will not choose to raise a child at the present time -- or carry a baby to term?

Women are imperfect. So is birth control. And most decidedly conservative politicians that narrow family planning options are imperfect. There will never be a zero abortion rate. Most women do the best we can, and when all fails, we deal.

Others will have to answer the rest of your questions, but I hope this helped. Any chance that you will supply hints on your interest in the subject, or will we have to wait to wait for the film at 11 to find out why you handcuffed yourself to a government building? :-)

**See Judith Jarvis Thomson: A Defense of Abortion for the infamous unconscious violinist explanation.

user-pic

I was unable to conceive (that's why I have 3 adopted children.) Based on my behavior, I could have been in the situation of deciding to have an abortion and I would have done so. Would I feel horrible now, knowing that I later could not conceive? No. I would have been a terrible mother at the time. Many many people who cannot bring themselves to have an abortion keep their children and the results are not good for them, but are especially horrible for the resulting children. I see them all the time.

I have a friend who has had an abortion and she also gave one child up for adoption. Her regret? That she didn't have 2 abortions, because she had to drop out of college (times were different back then). Also, her son found her and the results were very bad.

I am so glad that the two women who gave my sons and daughter up, did so; but I am not delusional enough to believe that every fertilized ovum would, or even SHOULD be delivered into the loving arms of parents who are thrilled to have them. Many many are aborted naturally, before the woman even knows she's pregnant, so the concept of a fetus being a person is just not true.

As to responsibility -- when people are taught that sex is bad it will influence their tendency to protect themselves from its consequences if they are immature. When I worked at a Student Health Service I was amazed to hear a female student tell me that she never used birth control because it would mean that she "wanted it."

As long as conservatives believe that having a baby is an apt punishment for "doing the deed" we will have a long way to go in getting to responsibility. They don't even want their daughters protected from getting cervical cancer because getting the vaccine will give them the idea that they are "safe from cervical cancer." Right. 14 year-olds are either having sex or not having sex based on their fear of cervical cancer.

OK -- I have strayed, sorry!

user-pic

There are two sides to this. One side is the woman, who has to decide. Even if she feels compelled to decide a certain way, still the "choice" folks recognize and respect that free will is operating.

On the other side there are people who want to prevent the woman from exercising one of her options. They do not want her to exercise "free will" but their will.

I believe in free will. I also believe that no one has ever, to my knowledge, deliberately gotten pregnant in order to have an abortion.

So that leaves us with either unintended pregnancies or problem pregnancies, which might lead a woman to choose not to carry the child to term.

In my view, the only problem here resides in the folks who simply cannot abide that another person should exercise free will.

Now, if certain folks want me, for example, to eat certain foods or wear certain clothes or do other things, that I cannot afford. Well, then they should step up to the plate and say: Here we'd like to provide you with the opportunity to make what we consider a wise choice. We'll provide free food, clothing and shelter to help you make that choice. Or we'll do that till you can do it on your own.

My view is that people have no right to interfere in the decisions of others, unless they are prepared to step in and share the consequences!

Otherwise, they should discretely withdraw and find something to do that they have control over, that they can decide about on their own.

user-pic

I agree with your major point, but even offering to give a pregnant woman sustenance, insurance, a home, etc etc; do not give someone else the right to force someone to have a baby that they don't want for whatever reason.

(I know you didn't mean it that way, Thera, but I thought your post could be misconstrued)

user-pic

Thank you for clarifying that, CVille Dem. You are correct. The woman must choose - irregardless of if they offer her millions.

Absolutely!

And that is, I think, what frustrates the heck out of the fundies. They want the control. They have a tantrum if they don't get the control! And god forbid, I don't want the fundies making my decisions! Or your decisions!

Please, fundies, make your decisions. And only yours!

user-pic

Actually, I tend to think that for the rank and file fundamentalist Christians it isn't about control. They truly believe that abortion is murder and that it is against God. While I don't agree, I can understand their thinking and how they reached their position. I wish that they would be less rabid and more tolerant of the fact that there are many views in the world and whether or not they are confident in theirs, they cannot run roughshod over others.

The thing that really pisses me off (on their behalf even) is that republican leaders can gain no benefit from, and therefore have no interest in, the criminalization of abortion. Think about it. Six years under a republican president, republican congress, and republican Supreme Court. If it was going to happen, it would have happened. But for the republican party, better to have legal abortion as a stick with which to beat the left and a fundraising tool with which to incite their base.

Disingenuous emm effers.

user-pic

I agree with you about some fundamentalists seeing the issue as murder, and not so much control. For these people, t is difficult to understand how there is ever going to be a reconciliation. And like you, I abhor the GOP's attempts to exploit this as a wedge issue when they have no real intent on acting upon it.

The zealots that get under my skin the most, however, are far too many of the men in the "pro-life" crowd. Too often I get the sense that they are attracted to this issue as the one that will define their righteousness for a simple reason: They know that they will never PERSONALLY have to confront such a choice as abortion. It's awfully convenient to be all righteous and pure about abortion - and sit in judgment of others - when you cannot possibly commit the sin yourself. Certainly no empathy, either.

user-pic

I agree that people have been led to believe that abortion is murder, but that doesn't excuse the fact that they just accept it as fact. It is the easy way out to just accept stuff as the word of god. If abortion is murder, why are there so many spontaneous abortions? How many toddlers "spontaneously" die? How many people in general, just die suddenly, without any known cause? Are fetuses people? No.

I have seen these people, who when asked:

Is abortion murder?

Their answer is: "YES!"

Should the mother be tried for murder?

Answer: "Well, I'm not so sure; I hadn't thought about it." "No." "It's complicated." and on and on...

My point here is that these people are in over their heads. If they are given the question, "Is all life sacred?" They can only answer one way. What they are incapable of comprehending is what that actually means.

These are the same people who don't want to let all children [WHO BY THE WAY, HAVE ACTUALLY BEEN BORN] to have health insurance. The sacredness of life is nothing more than a motto for them.

Yes, I agree. They have convinced themselves,(or have been successfully convinced) that their concerns for the unborn are religious.

There are uncountable numbers of those who have done things for the wrong reason who went along with what they were told, and never took the trouble to parse it for themselves. Are they innocent? Only if they didn't harm anyone else.

If the only thing sacred is a fetus or a Terri Schiavo, and

user-pic

I agree, Orlando. Most fundamentalists come by their convictions honestly and honorably, in my opinion. I don't think it's fair to accuse them of trying to control anyone. This is about what it's always been about: the issue of when life begins. If it begins at birth, as the pro-choice advocates say it does, then abortion is simply a personal choice. If it begins when the pro-lifers say it does (at conception), then it's murder. Until someone can say for certain who's right, the battle will rage. I think we all need to try to at least respect peoples' right to hold views that are contrary to our own without accusing them of having some dishonest motive.

user-pic

I don't disagree that they view abortion as murder.

But their desire to prevent the abortions, to control the behavior of others, that's where I see control entering in.

After all, why are they for the death penalty? Why allow any wars?

Why are they only bent on controlling women? And not courts? Or armies?

That's why I see it as a control issue.

user-pic

But TheraP, how could they NOT desire to prevent abortions if they see them as murder? That wouldn't make sense, would it? If you saw a murder being committed, wouldn't you try to stop it? You can legitimately disagree with the notion that life begins at conception, but it's not fair to generalize about another person's beliefs based upon one of those beliefs. I know plenty of pacifists who oppose the death penalty, war AND abortion.

user-pic

There is no responsibility clause in the Constitution.

Leave a comment

Ticia

user-pic

Following:
Followers: 12

Posts
Comments & Recommends


Favorites

All Reader Posts
How to use myTPM

Advertise Liberally
Share
Close Social Web Email

"To" Email Address

Your Name

Your Email Address