Moral Hazards (updated)
Let me preface this blog with two things:
Her church was telling her that what her mind and body felt were sinful longings. As to behavior, she really hadn't done much of that. Too much rejection from family the one time she briefly lived with a woman. Church was important to her. Her main source of social interaction outside her family of origin. But God was, for her, a demanding judge, someone to fear. And the bible hadn't seemed to help either - as she tended to focus on those passages which, she feared, would be in waiting for her when her behavior came to "Judgment" one day.
She really didn't make much progress, I think. As her mind was so fixed - like concrete that had set long ago. And she finally stopped coming. Still depressed, but no longer suicidal.
But though she left therapy, her therapy did not leave me. Her plight was not just one of being rejected for being gay. Though she had been. More than anything it was related to a failure of religion to be there for her. A failure of her faith community to provide solace or even a chance to open up. A failure of her church to reassure her of God's care and protection and love; God's ultimate delight in her and fervent wish for her well-being. But it wasn't only that. Our image of God is powerfully affected by the image we form, based upon our parents. Our conscience is formed from interaction with parents. And she just couldn't take the risk of "giving up" her long-ago cemented ideas about God, sin, faith, religion, and the parental rejection they all symbolized.
Somehow she could never chip away at that cement: For the Bible told her so. And she was so closed-off, from having to hide so much of herself, feeling so ashamed - that it prevented her from forming a close enough bond with me. A bond that might have given her enough "security" and "safety" to risk letting go of what kept her imprisoned, unhappy, unfulfilled, isolated.
She needed to protect herself. But in doing that she was also (unwittingly) hemming herself in. She was too fearful of parental disapproval, church disapproval, bible disapproval, God disapproval. So what did it matter if I was OK with it? She herself disapproved.
One thing about being a therapist. So many people get better, move on. There's a sense of completion. But you never forget the people you couldn't help. That thought nags at you. Especially when, like this person, part of the problem lies in society and in religion. You get concerned about the many ways churches hurt people, rather than helping them. You cringe at so many ways that society hurts and fails to help. Of course you knew that before, but that was before you knew this person. (And naturally, it's not just one person I'm thinking of. I just picked the one that's nagged at me - about this - the most.)
That's why civil unions alone will never be enough. People like my former patient need compassionate pastoral and communal care as well. God is Love. Love is of God. So long as we are faithful to the one we love, how could that love possibly displease the One who first LOVED us? Who literally loved us - into BEING?
Long ago I decided that if I had to choose between moral hazards, I would prefer to err on the side of love.
.................................................................
Update:
Well, well, well, well, well..... I have just come across an address by an ELCA Lutheran Bishop Emeritus, apologizing (just 5 days ago!) for his former rejection of homosexuality - in a public context - which was reported by Minnesota Public Radio. You can read the brief text here. (I am profoundly moved by this.)
I venerate every one who sincerely follows a faith or no faith - anyone who seeks to live out/embody ethical values such as compassion, justice, and mercy.
For the word "god" in the post, you can substitute: Holy Mystery, Sacred Presence, Cosmic Heart - whatever you view as deepest, truest, most compassionate, just, merciful.
Moral Hazards
She was a professional woman. Raised in a strict, churchgoing and dysfunctional family. And she was gay. That's what brought her to my doorstep. Seeking a way out of her dilemma. Seeking, but not finding, something I could not give her. Because she was also trapped in her own mind - her beliefs and her self-evaluations and her view of God so powerfully stuck, so resistant to change.Her church was telling her that what her mind and body felt were sinful longings. As to behavior, she really hadn't done much of that. Too much rejection from family the one time she briefly lived with a woman. Church was important to her. Her main source of social interaction outside her family of origin. But God was, for her, a demanding judge, someone to fear. And the bible hadn't seemed to help either - as she tended to focus on those passages which, she feared, would be in waiting for her when her behavior came to "Judgment" one day.
She really didn't make much progress, I think. As her mind was so fixed - like concrete that had set long ago. And she finally stopped coming. Still depressed, but no longer suicidal.
But though she left therapy, her therapy did not leave me. Her plight was not just one of being rejected for being gay. Though she had been. More than anything it was related to a failure of religion to be there for her. A failure of her faith community to provide solace or even a chance to open up. A failure of her church to reassure her of God's care and protection and love; God's ultimate delight in her and fervent wish for her well-being. But it wasn't only that. Our image of God is powerfully affected by the image we form, based upon our parents. Our conscience is formed from interaction with parents. And she just couldn't take the risk of "giving up" her long-ago cemented ideas about God, sin, faith, religion, and the parental rejection they all symbolized.
Somehow she could never chip away at that cement: For the Bible told her so. And she was so closed-off, from having to hide so much of herself, feeling so ashamed - that it prevented her from forming a close enough bond with me. A bond that might have given her enough "security" and "safety" to risk letting go of what kept her imprisoned, unhappy, unfulfilled, isolated.
She needed to protect herself. But in doing that she was also (unwittingly) hemming herself in. She was too fearful of parental disapproval, church disapproval, bible disapproval, God disapproval. So what did it matter if I was OK with it? She herself disapproved.
One thing about being a therapist. So many people get better, move on. There's a sense of completion. But you never forget the people you couldn't help. That thought nags at you. Especially when, like this person, part of the problem lies in society and in religion. You get concerned about the many ways churches hurt people, rather than helping them. You cringe at so many ways that society hurts and fails to help. Of course you knew that before, but that was before you knew this person. (And naturally, it's not just one person I'm thinking of. I just picked the one that's nagged at me - about this - the most.)
That's why civil unions alone will never be enough. People like my former patient need compassionate pastoral and communal care as well. God is Love. Love is of God. So long as we are faithful to the one we love, how could that love possibly displease the One who first LOVED us? Who literally loved us - into BEING?
Long ago I decided that if I had to choose between moral hazards, I would prefer to err on the side of love.
Seems to me I picked that up from an itinerant Jewish Rabbi "who spoke with authority" and whose actions, according to his own testimony, were meant to reveal his Father's Love - love especially for the lost and forsaken, the excluded and the outcast.
.................................................................
Update:
Well, well, well, well, well..... I have just come across an address by an ELCA Lutheran Bishop Emeritus, apologizing (just 5 days ago!) for his former rejection of homosexuality - in a public context - which was reported by Minnesota Public Radio. You can read the brief text here. (I am profoundly moved by this.)
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Ain't that the truth!
For some reason I'm reminded of a "lady" I worked with about 15 years ago... I had taken a hiatus from the pharmacy for about 6 months and I worked in a research lab. We studied 'Environmental Fate' of Pesticides, Herbicides, Rodenticides, Fungicides, and Aglaecides... Horrible job.
Anyway... There was this lady who was engaged to get married. We'll call the husband-to-be Jack Sprat.
The lady was considerably older than he... and she was a LARGE "Farm Girl" who could kick all our asses if she wanted to! She was intimidating.
When a co-worker commented on the fellas youth, she said, and I quote: "You gotta get 'em young and raise 'em right."
[shudder]
While reading your entry I saw her as the "Church" or the "Parent" or the "Family"...
I saw the woman in your story as the young fella in way over his head.
When the Church is a Large Farm Girl who could kick your ass... then you tend to fall in line...
...especially when you are young and small.
_______
I've viewed the Church (ANY Church) thus ever since.
They "Get 'em young and raise 'em right".
What damage can be done. What damage IS done.
It's really horrible.
November 9, 2009 10:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
Boy, what a great metaphor you've given here! Thank you so much. It's very sad. On the other hand, here's an image of how "church" could be that I read over the weekend:
http://www.preachers.org/wessels/restructured.htm
Worth a read! Worth thinking about!
November 9, 2009 11:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
That's the thing about churches. So many focus on emotion, on getting them young as you say. How many appeal to the adult mind? To have people come to God on their own terms, with compassion and rationality?
A child is a child. How many "born agains" get stunted; indoctrinated into an infantile way of thinking before they even have the capacity to make real decisions? When churches try to make children zealots, they lose what free thinking adults could have contributed. And, sadly, often churn out conflicted unhealthy individuals.
November 9, 2009 1:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
But the really ironic thing here is that many faiths urge be to "become like a little child" or adopt "a beginner's mind" - and by that they mean the "wonder" and "innocence" of childhood, the ability to live in the NOW. So it cuts both ways! If only religions truly followed their own wisdom! But oh, well...
November 9, 2009 1:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
I know, but you can't become child-like truthfully if you never were an adult, or as Gregor says below have a "strong sense of self". If you end up psychologically stuck as a child, you are (at least in my mind) just wasted potential. What might have been?
It's like the story of Siddhartha, you have to experience life to learn from it, imho.
November 9, 2009 2:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
So true!
I recall how Ghandi tried to teach "non-violence" to children. But found that people cannot really learn to give up violence till they have owned their anger and aggression.
I think that bears on this.
November 9, 2009 3:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have said for many years that people ought to spend some time alone... learn to understand, love, and be confident with that person in the mirror...
And we owe it not only ourselves but to those around us.
I think when people rely so much on their church dogma and all that... well... they are avoiding a very necessary step of knowing and trusting themselves.
November 9, 2009 3:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Know thyself"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Know_thyself
November 9, 2009 3:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's true. I am so much happier now than I was as an 18-yr-old. Then I was a 2-year old born-again Southern Baptist. But I wasn't happy. Probably almost suicidal.
But since then I've found that making my own choices and learning my own things and listening to many people and reading many books and experiencing many things--well, I'm comfortable with myself and can laugh like I didn't back then.
It's easy to be taught to believe something without questioning. But life is nothing but questioning. I felt then that I had problems, but I cannot imagine being a child indoctrinated that what you are at your core (e.g. sexuality) is an abomination. Kids should be taught to grow, not the other way around.
November 9, 2009 3:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm so glad you were able to work your way out of that.
I wasn't suicidal about it, but with a calm certainty by the 5th grade I had concluded that I was going to hell - as I simply could not behave perfectly.
Somewhere along the way I lost that.... Thankfully!
November 9, 2009 8:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
:)
November 10, 2009 12:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
I love this comment, matyra. Thank you.
November 10, 2009 11:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks, seashell. It's just something that I have noticed and experienced. If the way that many (most?) churches "package" Christianity only appeals to children, then they are doing something horribly wrong.
November 10, 2009 12:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, pooh, ickyma; she was probably just jivin' with ya. Lots of us women say that about any man. Plus: it happens to be the Truth! Y'all take heaps of trainin'! ;-}
November 9, 2009 2:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
LOL!
Well... I think she was trying to pass it off as good natured "kidding"... but I took it to heart.
I think there was a lesson in there.
Having said that, you're probably right about all the rest! :P
November 9, 2009 2:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
I do not know if this has anything to do with anything but Jaynes told me to contrast Amos with Ecclesiastes. Amos represents the pre conscious state of man...God is actually speaking to this author through auditory hallucinations.
Ecclesiastes is written by a conscious writer:
The 'I' in Ecclesiastes is a conscious 'I'. And the writer I think is telling me something anyway. This new consciousness, which according to Jaynes is relatively new, can become an isolated 'I'.
There was no free will until the 'I' appeared, magically in the Odyssey as opposed to the Iliad, magically in books like Ecclesiastes as opposed to Amos.
At the time Amos was conceived, there could be no vanity.
And there could be no compassion.
THE END
jeeeeeeeeeeeez. forgive an old man for confusion.
November 9, 2009 11:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
Could you cite the chapter and verse? So I can repost using a modern translation? I truly have trouble with the ancient versions....
Or go here and plug in the info, then copy and repost for us:
http://bible.oremus.org/
Remember, of course, that "when" these things were written is not necessarily "when" they "occurred to somebody".
But I think you're getting at a kind of developmental process. We can see that some people "mature" and others never do. They remain stunted, for whatever reason. And others SOAR in terms of their minds and hearts. The Upanishads were written thousands and thousands of years ago. Such human development in them!
November 9, 2009 11:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
It is chapter 8, verse 10 & continuing.
My Catholic version looks a little different.
In a way I am of course attempting to compare phylogenetic development with ontological development.
I could not get away from the chains of the catholic church until my late twenties.
It is soooooooo difficult for some to find their way out. Because as you attempt to acquire other perspectives, you necessarily sinning.
As Jaynes proclaims that at one time most of us simply obeyed the dictates of the 'voices' coming from a side of our brain, religion/culture requires that we obey its tenets. Even when the voices make no sense.
Individually, we must break through our cultural constraints, find the 'I' and then through a process of 'reeducation' explore our vanities and then find compassion.
What Ecclesiastes demonstrates to me is a 'phylogenic' development where it is finally admitted that some wicked people are not struck dead immediately upon sinning as Amos tells us.
And mirth is praised...eat, drink and be merry. ha
There are some things about God and the universe that can never be fully understood by man. Wisdom comes to those who understand that they will never fully understand those mysteries.
Thus, you may come to a point where you admit you cannot have all the answers.
In Chap. 9 at 12:
Man no more knows his time than fish caught in a net or birds caught in a snare.
hahaha
Following this long discussion of course the book ends telling us we must obey the Commandments and we will be punished for our misdeeds. But to me that is a platitude. That is a toss of a bone.
This should be called 'Thus spake Qoheleth.'
It is just an epiphany I had reading Jaynes and reading Amos and then Ecclesiastes.
It occurred to me that you cannot really experience compassion until you find the 'I'. And you can not find the "I" without bursting through your cultural restraints. Some people confuse this step with vanity or selfishness. It is, but it is a necessary step in my humble opinion.
And that is a very selfish thing to do. Ayn Rand would have gotten that far, surely.
But that is not the end of the process. The next step is sympathy for the perspectives of others and that leads one to compassion.
I am sorry. I just was reading all this and I saw your blog about religious constraints on the individual and something clicked.
November 9, 2009 12:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Very deep, dd. I actually have 2 books on Ecclesiastes. I need to mull your wisdom over much, much more.
Thank you for the further info.
November 9, 2009 12:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
My two kids attend a Catholic School... This is done out of respect for my wife and her wishes. I have NOTHING to do with the Catholic church (or any church, for that matter) beyond this.
My wife is from Brazil... and they like to joke that there are two types of people in Brazil:
1) Catholics
B) Tourists
I will say, however, that in my experience the Brazilian Catholics are nothing like the US Catholics. My wife says she was even taught Evolution in Catholic school as "FACT"!! I asked her what the Pope thought about this, but she didn't seem to give a shit what he thought. And that attitude, in a nutshell, is what I've experienced while in Brazil.
Between my wifes attitude about it all, the fact that we don't go to church, and My own thoughts on such things... I'm hoping my kids are able to come out of the school relatively unphased.
Fingers crossed.
November 9, 2009 12:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Crossing fingers here too. Brazil is "another world" - and the US (or the right wing Christians are becoming almost unhinged from the real world!)
Truth is that the Church in Rome actually has no problem at all with science or evolution or any of that. Just don't use any of that science to prevent conception... ;)
November 9, 2009 1:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
The pope has been cool with evolution since Vatican II. John Paul II reiterated it in the 90s. You won't find creationism in Catholic schools unless they are of the Opus Dei variety, which is rare.
November 9, 2009 1:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Opus doesn't believe in evolution? OMG! Another strike against them!
November 9, 2009 1:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
I posted this once... but don't see it now.
I used evolution as an example.
It could be any number of things... In my experience Brazilian Catholics don't really care what the Vatican thinks when it comes to them living their own lives. Each has his/her own ideas about what it all means... but they don't get all bothered about official church dogma or any of that.
They attend... they listen... they believe stuff... but then they live their lives.
I was mainly trying to stress the attitude, not evolution.
November 9, 2009 2:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, Amen to that! I wholeheartedly second it! (sorry I misunderstood...)
November 9, 2009 2:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Because of the unchecked 'brainwashing' I experienced religion to be in my childhood, I chose not to expose my daughter to anything in the way of formalized religions or spiritual teaching until she reached an age that she was curious and wanted to know about such things. I took her to Universal Dances of Peace with me occassionally beginning at age 5 and she was introduced to the idea that there were many different beliefs about life. I read to her every day from children's books that often related interesting and thought provoking ideas about Love and how we interact with each other and the world. Nothing 'religious'.
I believe I healed some of my own wounding around the religious brainwashing of my youth by giving my daughter a freedom to grow first and then learn of such things when she had attained a sense of herself and the world and that we could 'choose' what to 'believe'.
At the age of 11 she took interest in a spiritual teacher I studied with at the time and developed her own relationship with them in learning about life. And she was able to learn things and discuss them with me to get my perspective and started charting her own course through various exploration as to what she found to be true about life, spirituality, and sexuality.
When my daughter took her first philosophy class in high school she came to me and thanked me for how she was raised as she witnessed how much damage religion seemed to have done to many of her classmates. And she has continued to thank me many times since then.
My personal experience and beliefs are that it is more empowering and less damaging to expose children to religious, spiritual(Absolute concepts)before they reach age seven. They are like sponges before that time and it is very challenging based on my own experience as a very young reader/learner, it is extremely hard to sort out what is absorbed. For example, to this day I still have an ingrained habit to believe I must be perfect or I am a failure and I have to question it and think it through to bring it around because of my training in Christian Science. And I have done a LOT of work through the years on all of this. Just an example.
I really appreciate you sharing your story and more perspective on why it is not enough to say that two people should be satisified with a civil union, as if, one who is gay has no right to religious and spiritual belief and practice. Is not marriage a spiritual practice? Isn't the ability to marry akin to 'freedom of religion'?
November 9, 2009 12:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am curious, synch, how it might have gone for you if your children wanted to explore different religions and churches? Ours did; we usually let them attend with their friends' families, to greater and lesser degrees of success.
Our daughter married an evangelical, whose faith she no longer cares for; our son almost married a mormon, and I will try to hide my thanks here...
We are not religious, but are spiritual seekers to some degree. We always have celebrated a variety of religious holidays, including their prayers and customs, thinking the kids could choose their own ways.
November 9, 2009 1:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
My daughter was free to explore other faiths etc. and she was made aware that they existed. She did attend churches of friends and I would say that she learned a respect for sincere practices and such that made people strive to be good and better people. However she also witnessed the manipulation and hypocrisy in much of religion and she was pretty disgusted. She can't stand the oppression and rejection of gay and bisexual people in the 'name' of religion that in her perception has 'nothing' to do with the religion itself and everything to do with 'fear', homophobia as well as emotional and sexual repression. She just first really learned of people feeling oppressed and messed up by their religious upbringing in her high school philosophy class.
November 9, 2009 1:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yup, churches shoot themselves in the foot with young people when it comes to gays! It can be scary to see what happens to people who join some churches. I had a patient once who began to attend a local megachurch. Before long she began to make disparaging remarks about gay people - but TILL THEN (for years!) she had never mentioned that topic at all! Scary! Or maybe some people are easily brainwashed. I just don't know...
November 9, 2009 1:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good that she even HAD a high school philosophy class. Preaching against gays sure turned our son off, too. Our son came to ballk at saying our non-sectarian, egalitarian prayers at meals for awhile. Lately he leads the prayers here and there. He's been attending a Unitarian church. It amazes me how we do search for meaning.
November 9, 2009 2:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks synch! (and this also pertains to wendy's comment)
I honestly think very few people consciously make decisions, as you did, as to what/how to expose children to belief or non-belief. And it seems to me that maybe your daughter is thanking you for having thought things through, for having respected her as a separate and sacred person - who could be trusted to find her own way with regard to spiritual values and beliefs. I'm sure you were also a wonderful "example" in terms of how you live.
I had the blessing I'd call it of having my best friend in childhood (between 6 and nearly 10 - till we moved away) be Jewish. And the parents, while educating each of us in our respective and different faiths - allowed us to also experience holy days of each other's faith. Being confronted with another family, another faith, at such an early age maybe made me far more sensitive both to the richness of difference as well as to the value of spiritual tradition. It sensitized me in so many ways that I feel grateful for.
November 9, 2009 1:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Communal care. Communal responsibility. Trusting your own judgment. Judge not lest ye be judged. Who can you trust? Not yourself. Not your family. Not your church. Not your therapist. So, what will you do?
Washed up on the shore of a foreign homeland.
What will you do?
For some reason, I am making a mental connection between your post and the one up now by Deanie Mills.
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/deanie_mills/2009/11/theyre-not-all-crazy-but-they.php?ref=reccafe
I have no idea why. And, it's probably too big of a question to confront on a Monday.
Bible stuff....I don't know from.
November 9, 2009 1:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
You could share some Wisdom from the Great Spirit. That suit me just fine!
November 9, 2009 1:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh dear, can the "saved" never stop being the worst offenders?
http://www.voice-online.co.uk/content.php?show=16565
November 9, 2009 1:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
But you have to admit, TheraP, the saved are getting really creative about their sinning. I burst out laughing so hard that Linus woke up barking.
There's two things going on here. The fetishes this group has and their absolute talent at having them made public. Someday I'd like to [publicly] thank them for the many gifts they've given to liberals in this regard. Pass the popcorn, please.
November 10, 2009 11:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
I am so struggling with my religion right now...We have Indian neighbors we are getting closer to and I am in the beginning stages of sorta, maybe thinking about rolling around in my brain the possibility of perhaps kinda considering potentially going to a spiritual meeting with them. Why am I working up a sweat just thinking about it?
November 9, 2009 2:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Whether your neighbors are Indian from India or Native American, maybe you can share your concerns with them and see where it goes... then accompany them or not - depending on how you feel. Faith is such a personal thing, I find. But if you can find a "meeting ground" to share where you're coming from and where they're coming from, it might lead to something very fruitful.
I had the most wonderful conversation with a neighbor two doors down - at the end of August - at a little ice cream social they have before sending the kids off to school (the third annual...). This guy is an ordained pastor and wishes he could afford to do that - instead of Plan B, as he put it (his current line of work). There we were, in the middle of kids and adults and ice cream, having this wonderful, wonderful conversation about spiritual things. I later put together a little reading list for him and gave him some advice. That wherever we are, whatever our duties, that is like a sacrament for NOW in our life. (See if you can find Jean Pierre Causade's book on that.)
I so empathize with your concerns, stilli. It's so hard to find one's way in a society that partly wants you to be a "brainwashed" zealot on the one hand and offers too little real depth on the other hand.
Not sure if any of this was helpful. But I send my love and I totally trust you to work your way forward.
November 9, 2009 2:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Indians from India...I guess I just have to trust that God knows my heart and will know that I am seeking the best route back to Him, not being disloyal in the exploration...
November 9, 2009 2:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Since when is learning, disloyalty?
(I don't mean to leave a one-liner, but every time I've tried to add to this, it comes off flat to me. So there it is. ;) )
November 9, 2009 2:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
The sages speak in one-liners... :-)
November 9, 2009 3:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
If they are Hindus, then you are lucky! Hinduism, to my mind, is maybe the best religion! Not that I'm recommending it. But what I love is that they provide something for everyone! Wanna exercise and call that religion? Done! Like philosophy for a religion? Done! You want every kind of god, including elephants or part animal/part human or multiple arms and legs? Done! Wanna meditate as religion? Done! And on and on....
There is something so freeing and wonderful about a religion that has all those things and more - and NO institutional set-up or dogmas!
And people who come from a background like that are open to discussing! And able to see the ONE behind all the manifestations. (which is basically Vedanta)
These may be very good people to get to know here! I give you my blessing. How can it harm you? There's a lot of wisdom in each tradition. We can learn from that. Remember stilli, "there are other mansions..." Look that up!
November 9, 2009 3:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
If it makes you feel better, Still, I went to a Catholic School which taught us about religions around the world and encouraged us to learn about them.
I really don't think it's a problem. After all, any good deed done is done in His name. Whomever you think He is, or even if you don't think It's a He.
(shuffles feet)
just sayin'
November 9, 2009 3:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks, Bwak. I need all the support I can get here. I'm heading into deep water for me!
November 9, 2009 3:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
How could God "choose" a religion? No, think about it, people all over the world feel "called" to follow each and every faith! Someone "calls" but it's the same "someone"! It's like water, stilli. There may be different rivers, different oceans, rain, snow, clouds, steam... but it's ALL water! All you can get is wet! Nothing dangerous will happen.
November 9, 2009 3:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yez, well, my impression after study was that we all have a lot more in common than I thought.
The important things seem to be the common things, so I feel perfectly at home with anyone, whatever religion, or non, because the ties that bind us are compassion, empathy, service above self, and all that good stuff.
=D
November 9, 2009 3:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Which is pretty amazing, given that these things sprang up all over the globe at different times among different cultures. Even as a kid I figured that was not just a coincidence!
I personally revel in the flowering of so many wonderful faith traditions! I love the idea that Muslims pray 5x a day! And I love the Call to Prayer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlLaUCAQlQQ
November 9, 2009 3:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
TheraP, here's a link that may interest you.
url: http://www.truthdig.com/dig/item/200512_jesus/
Seems most every thing we know about this guy named Jesus is more rumor than fact. And that's been established by theologians, not academia. Faith before fact leads people to take religion to extremes where a reasonable person would question the sanity of those practicing the religion based purely on faith without considering what they are asking of others.
Personally, I find it odd to express faith to an abstract concept that can only exist in one's mind that can not be discussed, queried, questioned, refuted simply because it does not respond when addressed. One must interpret signs in nature as answers to questions. We might as well go back using the Oracle of Delphi seeing how it used the same signs to foretell wealth, glory, doom and death.
In truth, Christianity is nothing more than an extension of those ancient religions of Egypt, Greece...just fancied up to look more modern and the names changed so as not to look like the older religions. Keep in mind, Christ is really Christo which means Messiah. And Messiah means the anointed one - the one who is to unite the 12 tribes of Israel. And Jesus was rejected as the messiah by the Jews themselves. Has nothing to do with starting a whole new world religion for those not of the Jewish faith.
It's better to put faith into your own fate and disregard religion.
November 9, 2009 2:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
I respect where you're coming from, Beetlejuice. And I did look at this one man's view of where things are at in contemporary Christianity. What I (personally) find is that folks are simply ALL over the map in terms of where they might fit - and not in just his two neat boxes. Like just about anything, I can agree with a lot of the historical perspective, but not necessarily with his the interpretations he asserted.
Regarding your last sentence. That's what you've chosen to do. It's not necessarily what others have chosen. I myself prefer NOT to try and sway anyone to choose what I've chosen. Though I have chosen differently than you. Indeed, I've chosen to very much regard religion - and I'm actually interested in the ideals of all the of them. Though if you read the mystics and people of wisdom from nearly any faith, they all urge that people do need to choose a path or practice and stick with it. (My own advice, that I've followed, is to stick with traditions that have centuries if not thousands of years behind them.)
Nevertheless, I suspect that most who come here to TPM and are sincere and very good souls - and that it is possible to seek wisdom and compassion both inside a faith tradition or outside it. We all make choices for our very personal reasons. And I assure you that those who "choose" to practice a faith usually live that out in a unique and personal way - and that their understanding of it (or of god or any faith at all) develops and deepens and transforms over time.
Peace be with you. I do completely value your own personal decision here. This is such a fraught topic. So I'm honestly amazed at how civil, respectful, and open everyone is being on this thread.
November 9, 2009 2:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
To have faith, one must know first who you are - no one can tell you better than yourself. And faith is nothing more than seeking out that which is missing to make you whole within yourself. It completes the circle. Too many people are looking for something that can only be found within themselves - no book, group or following can bring the circle together that makes up a life. Life is a puzzle. As we travel through the years that makes up our lives, we find pieces along the way that adds more clarity to the picture of who we are. But we decide if the pieces fit. We should never allow other to decide for us the pieces of the puzzle that make up the life we own.
November 9, 2009 4:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ah... well, people do look for a faith "outside" but if you really, really find it - it's inside! Just as you say.
I affirm you and your path.
P.S. I actually think we can learn a lot from others. But the deepest self-awareness, of course, comes from inside. But absolutely, no one can tell us what is necessary or sufficient for us. I so agree. That's a scary prospect for many. It takes courage to embark on a path which is - in the end - uncharted. As each one's path, even in a faith tradition, is entirely unique.
November 9, 2009 5:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Amen!
November 10, 2009 5:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
That's the First Step.... Amen is the first step! ;)
November 10, 2009 11:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
One day I hope people will understand that when they have a strong sense of Self, they do not need to step on someone else to be strong, that their strength lies not in how they abuse others, but how they can stand alone, unthreatened by anything foreign. Lashing out is merely a weak and frightened response to someone unsure of themself. It is an act of someone dependent upon the behavior of others to feel comfortable. How lame.
November 9, 2009 2:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Beautiful! Every word of it! Thank you! :-)
November 9, 2009 3:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wrong church? Wrong religion?
Or the all too easy (and socially acceptable) explanation for the self-loathing whose real cause -- whatever it may be -- is much too painful to name?
November 9, 2009 2:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Very wise comment. It's so hard to be honest, isn't it? Takes courage!
November 9, 2009 3:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've made this point before but it is dogma that fouls religion. Religion in and of itself is not a bad thing at all. For some reason, however, a large swath of human beings cannot manage religion and religious committment without dogma. This is a huge, huge worldwide problem.
November 9, 2009 3:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
And "dogma" - the kind that divides and castigates - seems to come from dysfunctional institutions or hierarchies, I think. I think dogma must come from the need for "certainty" - and the desire to inflict one's own "certainty" on others.
November 9, 2009 3:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Perhaps it is the inability to maintain belief without certainty that drives the effort to create and impose dogma on people? Faith, belief, or committment (whatever one prefers to call it)performed without certainty a la Mother Theresa, Gandhi, et al requires far more strength and honesty than does the easy, soothing prescriptions of highly dogmatic religious institutions. Dogma fears uncertainty and attempts to deny it in my view by shutting down free thinking and inquiry and acceptance of others who do not conform.
November 9, 2009 3:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
My Karma just ran over their Dogma.
C
November 9, 2009 3:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good one! :-)
November 9, 2009 3:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ack!
November 9, 2009 4:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Double Ack!!@!
November 10, 2009 11:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
So beautiful.
I find that sexual taboo is one portion of a systemic manipulation of emotions. If the church, the education system, political system, etc. can control emotions like shame, fear, and guilt, then they can -- indirectly -- control positive emotions too -- through repression.
I'm a big fan of the discrete emotions theory which pictures emotions as separate packages and belonging to separate bodily expressions. I envision your patient's love package as tied down -- under water -- by her shame, fear, and guilt packages. They won't let the love package float unless the patient consciously decides to untie the other packages. I know you don't blame yourself; you can't. All you can do is tell the patient how to untie the knot. The rest is up to them. And, as I think you're suggesting, some of the burden rests on lawmakers to normalize behavior which harms no one.
November 9, 2009 5:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry I missed this earlier. Also, I'm not used to the "new you" (= avatar).
Interesting theory of emotions. If only it were so easy to get people to change - by giving them an image. But images are good to try and understand things. I use them a lot with people.
Yes, we need changes in our society at large. And for people like my patient, changes especially in churches. (Maybe you saw my update above!)
November 9, 2009 10:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes! That's fantastic. What a wonderful trend that would make.
I'm not convinced we can't put the genie back in the bottle. With enough dialogue and enough depth perception, there can be a sea change.
November 9, 2009 11:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think it has to come. I'm doing a lot of reading on things like that. It's hopeful.
November 9, 2009 11:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
I feel sad about the churches many seemed to have attended. The pastor of my United Methodist church had after church sessions with discussions about Black Nationalism, feminism, environmentalism, etc.
Church adults were often in disagreement with some opinions voice by youth, and vice-versa. At the end of the day we found common ground in being United Methodists and realizing that our main duty was to provide comfort to the poor in our community.
We realized that we could not complain about how bad the Black Muslims were if Methodists stayed in the comfort of the church and ignored the poor outside our doors. The church provides computer training, psychological counseling, drug counseling, family counseling and provides food to approximately 5K-15K families (the numbers rise to the 15K level during holidays. Most of the services are maintained by volunteers). I felt free in the church. I feel sorry for those held captive in the respective pews of their churches.
The message I got from he church was not that religion was a problem, it was man who was the culprit. The idea that God cursed Black people, can be found nowhere in the Bible. The idea was a man-made concept created to support slavery and Jim Crow.
The evils of religion are matched by the evils of the secular world. Slavery, Jim Crow, Japanese concentration camps were all Constitutional. The Supreme Court renders judgment on the Constitution, and found no problem supporting the aforementioned evils.
If I were a Muslim, I would be equally worried about the Fundamentalist Christianist and the Secular Fundamentalist. The Christianist would consider Muslims heathens . The Funda-Secularist would find the Muslims mentally ill. Both would have no problem going after the Muslim threat with a vengeance.
Have fun ridiculing religion. Beware when the "Rationalists" take charge. See Kant, the rationalist, on slavery.
November 9, 2009 11:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm happy that you've had such a positive experience in your church. I've had many positive experiences myself. Especially as an adult. But also as a child. However many people have been harmed in the name of religion. That's what this post was about.
Peace be with you.
November 10, 2009 12:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
I appreciate the response. My point would be that many people have been harmed by people. Driving While Black is a secular construct. Being followed through a store while shopping is a secular construct. I encounter secular problems much more than religious problems. I have many more secular induced scars than religious scars. I use my religion to keep from hating.
The current anti-abortion thrust of the Blue Dog Democrats and Republicans is not truly religious. The majority of US Catholics, for example, are pro-choice. C Street has as large a hand in the anti-abortion thrust of the health care plan as any religious organization. C Street is a cult that believes that it's members, by definition, cannot commit sin.
November 10, 2009 12:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Your point is exactly correct. It is people within the religions or the churches who have done the harm.
For you and for me religion is a solace and a source of inspiration. But for some, due to PEOPLE (as you say), it has been a source of pain and trauma. And many have thrown out the baby with the bathwater. Me, I see lots of problems. But that's a motivator for me, not a reason to do a 180.
Yes, absolutely, C Street is a cult! It goes way back. And it's dangerous. I believe I experienced a piece of it back in the 60's - my senior year of college. Scary manipulation there. (I called them on it too!)
I hope you stick around, rmrd0000. You seem to have an excellent handle on things! (I'm not around as much anymore as I used to be. But I welcome you!)
Peace be with you.
November 10, 2009 12:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
The morals and ethics of this nation have been sucked up by the black hole of greed. Everything, all the lies, all the injustices we have witnessed are about this one primary thing. The shift of power in this nation absolutely will prevent returning to a condition where there is an equitable balance in the social contract. That our government is even arguing about this tells us how broken this country is. It is without question Bush committed a huge crime against this country. Having done so, we have gone well beyond critical mass. Everybody knows what that means.
November 10, 2009 4:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well said! Greed - and the power to fill it - lies at the bottom of this. And we're all pawns to the powerful. We can still speak out. But many times I wonder if this country is just too large for its experiment to succeed.
November 10, 2009 8:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
The greed factor is important. If American workers can be sold out for a cheaper workforce overseas, why wouldn't these former US companies who now consider themselves international corporations sell out the US to another country?
Are US corporations truly patriotic?
November 10, 2009 8:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
I say revoke their charters.
Lobby the states they're chartered in.
November 10, 2009 9:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
They are mostly multinationals with any notion of allegiance to the U.S. being just a marketing gimmick.
November 10, 2009 12:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
I won't fall for the deceitful far-right effort to substitute "faith" for "religion" in effort to get around the First Amendment by repeating that lie. "Faith-based" means "religion-based". "Faith community" means "religious community".
And what's with the fear of critiquing someone's expression of "faith" when that expression is patent nonsense? Hogwash? Out-and-out bullshit?
But that is what the several contending "religions" are about: who has the most toys/adherents -- souls -- at the end.
It's like a draft: the one with the most conscripts is the most valid -- and has the largest tax-exempt bank account.
November 10, 2009 8:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
Nice post, TheraP. And funny in places, too. Would love to stay, but I'll be gone most of the afternoon. I'll 'see' you later, I'm sure! Watch out for crazy person runnings over dogs, OK?
Highly rec'd.
November 10, 2009 11:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
I want no crazy people running over dogs! Good to see you. :)
November 11, 2009 8:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
My wife never doubted her relationship with God. Her relationship with religion has been a bit more complicated. But religion isn't faith, it's a human institution. Which my wife, secure in her faith, realizes. It doesn't make the parting from the institution less painful, of course.
It is well past time for those who support GLBT rights in ANY faith group to stand up and be heard. Too many are "don't ask don't tell", whispering at the margins, or talking only to the like-minded. Straight allies have to come out too. Because their institutions are killing people in their name, and they have to say "enough!"
November 11, 2009 7:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think the storm is gathering, IT. Here's an example:
http://thewildreed.blogspot.com/2009/11/twin-cities-based-cccr-goes-global.html
I'm spending a lot of my time on these issues of late. And I think this guy and his group are going about this the right way: Addressing the wrongs done in the name of the RC church as part of an overall critique of how the needs of many have been suppressed and trampled on in the service of institutional hypocrisy. We're all suffering from this! And, to me, it's important to help people see that.
This is a very fraught topic within any church. Indeed it's becoming like a litmus test. As if those who believe the true message of the Gospel are accounted as heretics or apostates. They are invited or TOLD to leave. Or their "standing up" discounted as coming from "sinners" - "faithless folk". It's very slow going to make any headway in a system where dissent is viewed as already having one foot out the door!
But I completely agree with what you say. I'm choosing to stay and fight. And I know there are others who feel the same way.
Here's another link that explains why that is:
http://enlightenedcatholicism-colkoch.blogspot.com/
November 11, 2009 9:00 PM | Reply | Permalink