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Outing the Lies


Somehow the movers and shakers of all stripes seem to forget that with the web comes the ability to "out" lies. Right and left, within days, sometimes even hours, powerful folks have told lies, even to a compliant press, only to be exposed - by bloggers - often just by using da google.

I guess when you get to a really powerful position in government or finance, you've been able to fool or steamroll a lot of people along the way.  Maybe those under you or in thrall to your power have kowtowed and given you a sense of invincibility.  So maybe you delude yourself, thinking that you can do whatever you want or talk your way into or out of anything.  That no one will question you - ever - and that will be the end of it.  Maybe you get so powerful you think your words will trump actual reality.

What other explanation is there for this series of bluffs, threats, and lies conducted publicly by financial wizards (and others) - who are then exposed by bloggers (even comedians) digging into the facts?  Facts that newspapers apparently don't always check anymore.   Facts that are right there at your fingertips if you just use da google.  Or if not yet on the web, soon will be - as bloggers echo across the web demanding that the facts be made public.

Think about it.  Do these people not learn?  Have they not noticed that torture was exposed?  That lawyers with poorly reasoned torture memos were exposed?  That the Red Cross secret report became public.  That if you lie to Dave Letterman, he's gonna expose you that very night?  That Jon Stewart can do investigative journalism with the best of them.  That telling lies about "the bridge to nowhere" and the fake "true story" about Katrina make a politician look like a dolt.  After all that, do they think we are not paying attention to this financial mess?

Have they really so convinced themselves that they - and only they - are the best and the brightest - and therefore entitled to pull the wool over the eyes of the rest of us?  And that we won't find out?

Look, I may not be a financial wizard but I sure as heck can spot a bunch of liars when they're doing it right in front of my face!   I'm beginning to think that some of these folks that work their way into the board rooms and the CEO offices and sometimes even the Treasury Dept or the Dept of Justice - and god knows even the presidency and the vice-presidency - are so drunk on the illusion of the power they wield, so intoxicated with their own ability to weave financial and judicial webs - that they simply haven't noticed the power of the web.  And the power that the web gives the people.

It would be laughable, if this were not so deadly serious.

The AIG fiasco is just one example.  Consider how many people, inside and outside that company, have tried to hide things - unsuccessfully.  First they thought they could hide their fraudulent financial fluff.  Then they wanted to hide where the bail-out money went.  Next they tried the bonus bamboozle.  And then it's "Dump on Dodd" day.   So they spread a story that Dodd did it, but within hours that's exposed as a lie too!

Remember the Bridge to Nowhere?  And the person who told the lie about it over and over?  That lie got exposed right away - but the person kept right on telling it, even after admitting it was a lie, right on the tv!   And that was just one of her lies - that got exposed.   

Remember that hapless "rebuttal" to the State of the Union?   Bad enough that the speech became a running joke.  But why did he have to lie on top of giving a bad speech?  Naturally, in no time at all, his made-up story,  which he swore was true, was exposed as lie.

Ok.  We've got the picture.  Now why in the heck do the powerful people not get the picture?

Powerful folks, I'm gonna give you a piece of advice:
 
The bloggers are sitting in front of computers.  Right there, on their own screens, that are right in front of their eyes, they have all the tools to find out your lies.  They can google.  They can email people, asking for information.  They can phone people, even while looking at the computer.  They can share everything they find out - very quickly - over these same screens that are sitting right in front of them.  Comedians are making use of things like this now.  Congress is paying attention to the web.  And even the newspapers have been forced to attend to blogs.

Message:   Tell the truth!   Or we will find out!

We are living through a huge transformation.  We on the web are part of it.  Therefore to us it's clear as day.  But it would appear that many in powerful places haven't yet realized how very exposed they are.  Honestly, I find it hard to believe!  But there it is....

 

141 Comments

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Hubris. Plain and simple.

I think you accurately pegged it in your opening paragraphs. Spend enough time feeling no limits to your power and something like the Internet and blogging and a public who is all of a sudden paying attention will sail right over your head, if your multitude of "able" assistant even bother to mention it to you.

Do you ever get the feeling that all those folks at the highest levels are simply doing their best to deny reality as long as they can?

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At first glance, Jason, I thought you were referring to the post: Hubris. Plain and simple.

Honestly, I think you're right. It apparently leads to simply believing you have so much power you don't even need to bother with the peasants. I think we need to remind them we're not peasants! They're denying the reality of us - to their peril!

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Sorry for any initial misunderstanding - we are more often than not in agreement on the big picture, though the finer details sometimes trip us up.

As to the follow-on point, I hope we can return America to a reality-based culture without the pitchforks and torches, because that sort of thing can quickly get out of control. I am happy the peasants are using pointed words and barbed phrases this time rather than storming the Bastille.

I think it is within our grasp to reclaim this nation without the pain and suffering that previous revolutions have typically brought as an inevitable side effect.

Viva la Evolución!

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Jason, it was not your fault at all. Just my initial misreading - which I'm still chuckling over.

But yes, boy do we need Evolucion in the Truth Dept!

(and gee, I wish I knew how to do the little accent marks!)

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I went to Google translate and it provided the accent thingie for me. :O)

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Evolución!

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Tell the truth - or we'll find out.

Awesome post TheraP.

I think you hit it right on the head with this line. Now that we have the ability to out the lies, we can begin to ensure we get honest people running our companies and government.

Isn't it wonderful that the web has become the greatest potential tool in a representative democracy? It's use could not have been foreseen by its creators.

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I so agree, mage! Yes, that's why we need to guard our web freedom! It's an awesome tool! And boy, for a tool that is not a secret, it's amazing how clueless these liars can be these days!

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Lady Huff is waxing about whether or not Jon Stewart would have done a better job with dicky c than John King of CNN. It made me giggle.

CarolG, in her news center, noted that AIG thought maybe they would get away with throwing out some news about bonuses on Friday, because who reads the newspapers on Saturday (straight quote from West Wing). Ha!! Those days are gone.

Send out some news on Sunday at 1 AM, boom. Greenwald, or Lady Huff, or Joan Walsh, or Josh will pick it up and at 1:30AM somebody is blogging about it.

This is good post. Looking at some positive aspects of the information age.

If X notes that in 2003 w said blah blah blah. Well hit the NYT or Newsweek and hit one of their search engines (At least I think that is what I am doing when I google, in the posters google as it were) and you can find out if that is what was said or not in less than an hour. Sometimes half an hour.

Go ahead evil ones. Try to hide. We shall seek you out and show you for what you really are!!!

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Yup! But apparently some have not yet realized this. ;)

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Sunlight is indeed the best disinfectant.

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Yes. Looks like we need to order more of it!

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It doesn't disinfect vampires.

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Got any idea what to do with the vampires? I do like the image. I was calling them blood-suckers. But yours is better!

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Stakes through the heart are reported to be useful.

Let's leave the garlic for tasty goodies from the kitchens...

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Silver isn't worth all that much these days. Best to make it into bullets.

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Sunlight turns vampires to dust.

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You want a lie. I have one for you.

In my lifetime this nation has moved from a funded retirement benefit system to the 401K scheme that has ended very badly for tens of millions of Americans.

The lie told was one where American workers were promised control over their retirement with a good return on their retirement investment dollars. This was a lie devised to hand over trillions of dollars to the very financial institutions that have so screwed everything up so badly. And they have used our investment dollars to do it. Giving cotrol of so much money to so few has proven an immense mistake. Ordinary workers don't have the means to be exposed to this risk. Because of money being fungible as it is the banks and such used those vast sums to game the system against us. Our very dollars were used to provide political contributions for persons who decidedly were not in it to support our intersts. Because our government created this and because we trusted them we are now facing a very bleak future that includes working until we die. There are so many lies inside of lies on this one thing it pains me to even think about it. This is without a doubt one of the biggest lies ever. Easily in the top ten.

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Thanks for that excellent comment. I agree with you. People have been left to fend for their own retirement, their own health care, and so on. It's a terrible shame in a rich country that so many have nothing to fall back on but social security. Put what you said together with how they suckered people into these home equity loans and there goes another retirement asset that's gone down the drain for many people. And brought to you by those same financial fleecers.

Yes, it's so painful to contemplate that we can hardly think about it.

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Giving cotrol of so much money to so few has proven an immense mistake.
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It was deliberate, not a mistake. The same process was attempted with the "reform" of Social Security into 401k-like "private accounts".

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...and the proposals of health savings accounts. Couched in the language of having faith in people to manage their own affairs. It's the same language for getting rid of Social Security. Right. The average rocket scientist doesn't know enough about investments to manage his/her own retirement accounts; to imply that the majority of people (who are NOT rocket scientists) should do this because they DESERVE to manage their investments is just fakery.

The pushing of eliminating taxes on mulitmillion dollar inheritances by telling people who live in trailers that they will have to pay a Death Tax!

Oh, Thera, my list is growing! (Sorry, I am jumping the gun!)

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I jumped the gun right in the post, I think! Go ahead and post as many lies as you want! (As long you truthfully out the lies!)

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A lot a truth there little girl. The whole damn thing was intentional.

And I want to see some new intentions. hahahahaha

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Set up your confessional, dd!

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The road to hell is paved with honorable mentions.

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Well at least one party doesn't get it, TheraP. Rather than wait for a lie or an unscripted remark, the National Republican Congressional Committee has sent out "trackers" with video cameras to stalk Democratic lawmakers. When they find one, they ask some sort of question in the hopes of getting a "macaca moment".

Sounds like the NRCC has gone off its meds.

Timely blog!

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Boy, maybe they should call them "trappers" or "tricksters". Interesting that they needs to resort to subterfuge, whereas all we need to do is read the news and then dig into what's behind it!

Thanks for the link!

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Subterfuge video - caught on video! Unbelievable!

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Great blog, Thera, and every word is true, for a change from what we see everywhere else. May I suggest that you do another blog where we can just simply list all the lies we hear repeated as truth without any challenges? (Such as Cheney giving the latest reason for the Iraq War, or Ari Fleisher saying that getting rid of Saddam insured that he would not attack us AGAIN after 911, or that weasel Eric Cantor saying that the Stimulus bill is funding a train to Las Vegas from Disney Land.)

Those are just examples. The reason I don't think it should be done here is that the list is just way too long, and it needs its own dedicated thread, and I don't want to hijack your excellent idea. That's why I suggest that you do it!! BRAVA!

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CVille, do you think I should wait till tomorrow on that?

I agree that it should be done!

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Yeah, let this one play out. We can all start composing our lists now. Again, great idea, Thera!

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Yup, your suggestion should help us all make our lists. Glad you agree.

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Thera,

Excellent post. For me, the 'nut' is, 'Facts that newspapers apparently don't always check anymore'.

It's just not newspapers, it's media and yes, bloggers.

Facts are direct full quotes in context, documents and whole representations of processes, etc.

While I agree that the blogosphere is a great resource and opportunity to 'catch 'em' and 'attribute factual responsibility' to all entities, it's also a medium just as rife with the same sins as other entities.

It is a fertile landscape for rushes to judgement based only on political agenda, opinion and sloppy (if any) actual research of the facts. Assumption and supposition seldom result in factual accuracy.

I agree that Tell the Truth is what we need from all, but I've learned to verify with the facts. As they say, one man's truth is oft based on another's lies.


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Excellent points, Aunt Sam. All of them. Indeed, it's getting frustrating because allegations are being printed or broadcast before they are carefully checked. And thus you have carefully done blogs refuting certain allegations at the same time as others are running with the first, misplaced allegation. I prefer the folks, like emptywheel, who can lay out an argument, complete with quotes and her own questions and suppositions, clearly identified as such.

Yes, we need to clarify for ourselves what is a fact versus an opinion versus a rebuttal opinion or a rebuttal fact.

The one thing about the blogs, though, is that you get rebuttals in real time. And most respectable bloggers don't go around repeating the same falsehoods, like you see some politicians and financiers and other famous folk doing.

In a blog, if you make a mistake, you can go right in and correct it. You can update your post. Newspapers do that - but it's the next day and the correction is so disconnected from the mistake, that the mistake takes on a life of its own.

We need to discuss this more. Thanks for bringing all of this up. Indeed, I've seen you doing this quite a lot lately. You're taking on a useful role as gadfly for the truth. Please keep doing it!

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This is why China desperately is trying to control the internet. You think our 2 party system breeds corruption? Imagine only one viable party.

Even the extreme punishment that the Chinese government gives perpetrators doesn't slow it down too much. Though them letting the internet run free would intimately help them, they fear the immediate aftermath.

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"ultimately" not "intimately",though I guess it makes sense that way too!

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I keep thinking of the 200 million unemployed Chinese, matyra. They may be able to put a choke on google but what are they going to do with 200 million unempoyed - and counting - if those folks get restless? Already they're cracking down on anyone who goes to Beijing with complaints they are trying to bring to govt attention.

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Where did that number come from? Wow, that's 2/3 of the US population and 20% of their population, more or less. As you say, if they get restless, this will make the Tibet protests last year (was it really just a year ago?) seem like such a little matter.

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I read it here at TPM. A comment, I think. Gosh, I wish I could recall which thread and search... Ok, I'm looking it up.

Right now I'm seeing 20 million. So maybe it was a typo that I read on the comment? See, that's exactly what I should not have done. Repeated something I read - without checking. Mea culpa! (dd's got his confessional below, so I can run there and get absolution, if he'll give it to me)

That's 4% of their population. But who knows if the figure is accurate? Would they tell anyone? Really? I bet it's higher than that. What do others think?

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Thera, your original numbers weren't far off...

"Estimates by government research agencies for urban jobless top 18 million, or 9 percent of the workforce -- a rate unimaginably high to those who remember the guaranteed cradle-to-grave employment during Mao's time. This figure doesn't include the growing number of jobless among the 160 million migrant workers who are mostly employed in factories. The rural unemployment rate could be as high as 20 percent. In addition, 1 million college graduates are not expected to be able to find jobs this year."

from WaPo.

Rural population is about 55% of the total population.

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Thanks, Obey. For rescuing me a bit here. I do recall being astounded by that 200 million number, which I didn't think to question at the time. And all I could think were bands of unemployed folks roving the countryside. I did read actually that the Chinese govt claims putting 5-6 million people to work. So there may be an effort afoot to give these unemployed folks some structure and a salary to tide them over.

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The rural unemployment is a real issue. 20% of rural population means roughly 150 million. And that's some of the most impoverished people in the world. The unemployment, the blocking of migration, the corrupt local officials, expropriation of land, etc. There's serious potential for social unease. Hope there's a bumper crop this year, is all I can say...

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Still those are high numbers! I was talking about Ukraine's problems the other day brought on by the economic crisis. A real crisis in China would be alarming on a much bigger scale. One that, as you say, blocking Google wouldn't even scratch.

(of course, there are enough real problems out there going on right now. I shouldn't manufacture any more....)

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Truly, I feel for those people. I really do....

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Excellent post TheraP!

Anyone who has been around power and powerful people both in politics and the private sector, who is an honest observer, can tell you that the answer to your question about whether these people think nobody will check them or call their bluff is that is exactly what they think. With the acquisition of even a little bit of power most human beings are wont to change how they view themselves and others. Like anyone else who breaks the rules they think they won't get caught, but in these cases they also think their power protects them even if someone starts nosing around. They often feel invulnerable.

It is the rare human being who is able to maintain their sense of sameness as opposed to superiority once they have acquired some power. Most people believe they will not be effected by the power they wield. This is because they just don't really understand the toxic quality of power and are unable to see how it has changed them. As in Joe Walsh's song "Everybody's so different. I haven't changed! Life's been good to me so long."

Some are able to check the negative psychological attributes that accrue with the acquisition of power, but most are unaware of the transformation and deny it happens at all until they find themselves in a position that brings them down to earth. Sometimes it takes quite a fall to do that. Look at John Edwards. Look at Bill Clinton. Look at Madoff. Look at Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart and Ted Haggard. Look at Nixon, the Enron gang, etc... Power presents opportunity but also great risk if not handled and approached properly.

Power ingrains an arrogance of a special sort. The ability to resist is greater when the effects of power are less, so that the higher up one goes in either politics or business the less able one is to effectively resist seeing one's self as possessing superior abilities, etc... and from a sense of entitlement to whatever the perquisites of the position might be and so on. Power, in any arena, corrupts those who wield it.

Whether it is someone elected to a town council position, school board on up the political ladder or in business as one accumalates power and position, the typical human begins to believe things about themselves that may or may not be the case or begins to acquire certain distorted beliefs about themselves that cause them to think they are entitled and even invincible. These distortions are shaped by their sense of enhanced power as a human being because they can influence the behavior of others and make decisions, etc... Often, they begin to perceive themselves as possessing superior intellect, judgment insights, etc... They become fascinated with their power and believe that the power is something that comes not from their position, but from themselves. They believe it belongs to them and they will do anything to keep and/or enhance it. They often come to believe it is an attribute they themselves possess and control no matter how small or large. The attention and deference they receive only because they are in power intoxicates them, distorts their vision of themselves and those around them. The more power they have the more intoxicating it is to them and the more they want and need the feeling they get from it. Few can maintain an undistorted view of the world without focusing on doing so once power has taken hold of them. One of the rare individuals who seems to have been able to keep themselves in tact and remained humble despite the acquisition of great power is Warren Buffet and that's why he is so well respected. His ability to remain "normal" while wielding all that power and wealth is the most remarkable thing about the man.

The distorted vision power causes leads to all manner of abuses great and small. The person who allows power to go to their head can easily believe that it is extremely important for everyone but themselves to follow the rules, but because they are who they are, the rules do not really apply at least not in the same way. They can also easily assume that while they are aware that something they are doing is against the rules or even illegal that they will never get caught because their power insulates them from scrutiny or questioning and so on. Once a politician or businessperson has reached this point there is little but disaster that can stop them. The corrupting influence of power is palpable and if not checked will end up corrupting even the strongest person.

Lying, stealing and other unethical or immoral behaviors can easily become a daily and routine activity in the life of a very powerful business or political leader. Rarely do the sycophants who surround them tell them that they need to stop or that they are wrong. Typically these are people who, for lack of a better phrase, get a contact high from the power of the person they serve and will do nothing to jeapordize the their acquisition of this second tier of the ultimate drug. More frequently in business than in politics (for obvious reasons) the addition of large amounts of money enhances the seductive and addictive quality of power.

You can look at a very long list of powerful persons whose lies, arrogance, personal indiscretions, and crimes all essentially end up admitting that they were in a position where they felt invincible, capable of pulling off anything and that the rules that apply to everyone else did not apply to them.

Our founding fathers understood how potent and corrupting power is in the political arena and that is why they set up a government with checks and balances so that no person or party could accumulate too much unchecked power. I doubt very much whether they could have envisioned the extraordinary power held by private corporate leaders today given the very different scale and nature of commerce in their time. They likely could not have anticipated the vast concentration of power in the hands of a small number of executives and so saw the greatest threat as absolute governmental power. Nonetheless, certain checks and balances exist in the corporate world, albeit often weak and easily manipulated, so somewhere along the line there has been some inkling about the corrupting influence of power in the business world. FDR and the New Dealers understood well that business power required regulation or it inevitably leads to the sort of disasters we are surrounded by today. Thank God all the safeguards they put in place were not dismantled!

Obviously, all we have to so is look at our recent past and the current financial debacle to see how easy it is for those in power to lie and deceive and view themselves as being beyond any rules or any laws. They can lie to and/or manipulate auditors, accountants, boards of directors and regulatory agencies. They can even lie to and manipulate our government itself at the highlest executive and legislative levels. Many of them in the financial sector obviously haven't been humbled enough to keep from continuing to manipulate the political system in support of maintaining their power and position. The lobbying of the big banks demonstrates they really don't understand that for the public, the aura of power no longer protects these guys. And they do it shamefacedly, with a sense of entitlement unrestrained and without any fear of being effectively scrutinized because it is so very rare that they ever are scrutinized.

The best and most effective check on the powerful now is the voice of the people demanding real, radical and substantive redistribution of power and wealth in our society. We must realize that what Frederick Douglass said was true:

"Power a demand. It never did and it never will."

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What a stunning dissertation on how power corrupts, oleeb!

You've laid out how power can corrupt any of us. And the responsibility we all have, just as Aunt Sam reminded us above, not to misuse the power we have. Whether as parents or teachers or supervisors or bloggers or whatever.

I'm also thinking of the grave danger of having people get into power who are already corrupted. The ways in which these really corrupt and dangerous sociopaths can wield power in such a way as to crush the opposition. So, not just lies but outright destructive behavior in order to harm anyone who tries to get the truth out.

For that reason I feel it is so important to support whistle blowers and truth tellers of all types. It often takes such great courage to speak out. Indeed, we may need a blog on courage. People willing to risk their jobs or even their safety because they simply can't sit back and watch bad things happen, without trying to do something. (I'm thinking, for example, of that guy who over and over tried to get the SEC to see that Madoff had to be doing something illegal. Who was fearful of being harmed due to his complaints.)

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And it took Frank Herbert, in his sprawling, tail-wagging-the-dog "Dune" series, to bring out the maxim that not only does power corrupt, it serves as a magnet for the corruptible.

I suspect you'd find very much the same personality types drawn to power, cutting across class, age, gender, and ethnic lines.

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Wry good point! But there are also people attracted to power that understand the dangers and pitfalls and who are capable of handling it at least for a while without succumbing completely to the darkness so often associated with it.

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Uh, I meant to write "Very good point!" Sorry.

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I would add that these few who are capable of keeping their sense of ethics, morals and good judgment are also intensely disliked by the more common power seekers. They are seen as "troublemakers" like Howard Dean and Dennis Kucinich are often viewed, or the guy who kept complaining about Madoff. It is difficult for people like this to survive in the system as we know it because it strives to purge them at all costs.

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Boy have you hit that nail on the head. Power as a magnet for corruptible! Yup! Oh, Lord!

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Honestly, I recall thinking about Bill Clinton, when he was first running for president - in the primary - that the guy sounded like he had been practicing how to tap dance his way around issues since he was in high school. I pictured the guy listening to politicians to learn how to lie better and smoother. For that reason, I never really trusted him.

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Yes, courage, ethics, a strong sense of obligation to the truth and justice and the right are required to resist power. All those things too are also required to resist the very potent cocktail of power and money and all that goes with them. One of the great pitfalls in our society is that nothing prepares anybody for power in any deliberate way.

Most elected officials get sucked up so quickly they don't even know what hit them. The general lack of ethical standards in the business world doesn't help there at all. One of the great weaknesses we find in business and political leaders is when they fail to understand how to use their power effectively for good and instead use their power for themselves alone or only insofar as it benefits them and their future prospects. This is what prevents, for example, a string of Presidents from cutting needless defense projects that cost dizzying billions, or to support insurance subsidies that only perpetuate a bad system as opposed to single payer health care because the subsidy approach is less risky for them, etc...

One of my favortie authors is Tolkien. His vaunted trilogy is all about this very topic. The lesson so hard for numerous characters to learn and understand is that the one ring cannot be possessed in the sense of controlling it. The ring always and inevitably controls the person wearing it. Therefore, power that great must be undone and destroyed so that it can never again wreak the havoc and destruction it was designed to carry out.

What you mention about whistleblowers is very true and we need to support them. I would strongly recommend to you and all others checking out and supporting the National Whistleblowers Center. They defend Whistleblowers and provide them with the legal representation they always require, but few are in a position to provide for themselves. You can learn more about them by visiting:

http://www.whistleblowers.org/

click on the tab that says "Take Action" to join the support group and to make a donation. You will be glad you did. It's a good group. I have known the key people in the organization for a long, long time and they are dedicated, skilled and good at what they do.

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It's been my impression since high school, when I first began to think about these things - the disconnect between ethics and politicians - that the people who would make the most trustworthy leaders are the ones who shun politics and the people attracted to politics are too often the ones who seek power for its own sake or for personal gain or glorification. I've seen that over and over, no matter the organization or the political arena. It's often the same in institutional religion, where those who seek to advance themselves are rarely the most spiritual people. The Tibetan Buddhist system seems to mitigate that by selecting people from childhood and using a system of education geared toward ethics and spiritual development above everything. Or certain contemplative monastic orders. And that reminds me that the Orthodox Churches mandate that bishops come from the monasteries rather than the lay clerics, which again mitigates against the corrupting influences of power. Indeed, there were a few popes along the way, a very few, who disliked so much the pomp and circumstance of the papacy, that they gave up their office to go back to monasteries. If only we had a system like that for grooming ethical, committed leaders. Because if you had such a system, they could be supportive of doing that - as a group - instead of those solitary individuals whose efforts to do that are like paddling upstream during a flood.

Oleeb, I never cease to be amazed at your facility with taking up so many moral issues and being able to roll out paragraph after wonderful paragraph of powerful prose, which is uplifting and educational and full of righteous rage all at the same time.

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Thanks TheraP!

Apropos to your point above, remember that in the Bible all the great leaders when "chosen" for their mission always try not to accept, weren't looking for such an assignment and then only take up the appointed task reluctantly or unintentionally. Look at Moses who says he doesn't want nor does he believe he is worthy of the job God wants to give him. Even Jesus tells God he is not worthy and that some other choice would be better.

One hymn called "Here I am Lord" captures the kind righteous attitude one who is being given power ought to have. It's a moving song in my opinion. The person responding to God's voice is not seeking, but is called, and is only responding to the call. He indicates that he will act in the best interest of the people. There is no self agrandizement. The refrain is:

Here I am, Lord. Is it I, Lord?
I have heard you calling in the night.
I will go, Lord, if you lead me.
I will hold your people in my heart.

The lessons that spiritual paths provide on this sort of subject are many and illuminating. But they are not easy to put into practice.

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You are right, oleeb. By the way I love that hymn. I love the words and music as well. Especially the "calling in the night" part. Reminds me of that one prophet, who was called as a child. Actually, I love those stories. Of the prophets being called. And of how the prophets were told to anoint the king or the next prophet. And so often it was a child or the person you'd least expect.

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I feel this way:

I will hold your people in my heart.
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Should have read "Power concedes nothing without a demand." Sorry

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I thought it was me.... ;)

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Oleeb, you are brilliant.

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That's very kind. Thank you.

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Many years ago there was an exercise franchise called Elaine Powers Figure Salon. 30% of the job was about fitness, the rest pure sales. Everything was scripted from phone calls to face to face interaction between customer and employee. Eventually it was discovered the script was written to appeal to a, "Edith Bunker" mentality. I think a variation on that script is being followed to this day. Appeal to the low info folk, say it over and over and soon it becomes truth. (to the low info folk)

I tell myself the low info types are in the minority yet, the lies continue. It's all quite disconcerting since many of these lies fade away and are forgotten once the next controversy comes along.

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What you've said gets back to what I wrote in a blog a few weeks back. How advertising seeks ways to manipulate psychological needs - and everything becomes a product to be sold. The "selling" of it being at times more important than the product itself. The ways in which so much gets distorted by that.

Thanks for the lovely picture you've drawn, that makes it so easy to understand. How they target their audience or their message. And repeat it, no matter how false or fraudulent, in order to sell something (no matter how false or fraudulent the actual product).

It's very scary. And it fits with what oleeb wrote above.

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Here's the link to that blog of mine I mentioned, in case anyone missed it:

http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/therap/2009/03/systemic-deception-and-the-bre.php

I think I keep circling the same issues but from different vantage points.

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The "selling" of it being at times more important than the product itself.

Most days, that's the part that angers me the most.

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The sad thing of all this is, while we recognize what has gone on in our government, we are powerless to change it except through civil disobedience. That is how it always ends up. The peasants rise up and behead the king(s) and start over.

I've written so many letters over that last decade and have nothing to show for it. Even though Obama might be trying he isn't willing to take over these corrupt institutions and call them the criminals they are. One reason for this is they have done so with the aid of the very government of which he is a part. It's because of the money. It is simply wrongheaded to have money guide everything while the country is going down the tube.

I've said this before and I'll say it again. There needs to be complete isolation between government and the business sector. Government and business act in complete consort and that completely negates the notion of regulation. As I have also said before, federal tax receipts in 1950 were 49% from business and today that number is about 16%. In my lifetime the financial functioning of this country has been completely restrucutred to the great disadvantage of the regular working person. And that person is you and I. And we happen to represent 90+ percent of the population. So much for equal representation.

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can you add some more context to that fed tax receipt % in 1950 vs. 2009?

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The charts for tax receipts by payer category are on the IRS web site. I had looked this stuff up a couple of years ago. It's very enlightening to see how this stuff has changed over the years. That is where I got the information for my statement. The information is all public for anyone to examine.

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This chart & link may be relevant?

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That is helpful. I would have to wade through the IRS web site to find the historical charts that break down federal tax receipts into the two broad categories of individual and business tax returns that I know are there. As I said it was quite a while back I looked it up and I no longer have a link to the pages that reference the data.

I am amused by those persons here in the U.S. who decry the European business model. I worked for a European company for a big portion of my career and that model is arranged to give the appearance of companies being only marginally profitable. The fact is we have copied that model precisely. The model is particularly useful in obfuscating profits and thus avoid paying taxes on those profits. It is no accident that even though the marginal corporate tax rate is 35%, most corporations pay far less. Just as an example the vast sums (billions) spent lobbying our lawmakers once upon a time wasn't a deductible business expense. That expenditure came right out of profits. Now it's a deduction against pre-tax income. The problem that arises is an individual taxpayer can call his or her congressperson every day of the year and complain about something but derive no financial or other benefit whatsoever. A wage earner can make a political donation of a few bucks but that has little or no impact on their tax liability and no influence at all upon the legislative agenda of a congressperson.

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Thanks TheraP, great read and excellent essay.

You guys really want to know what turns me in to James Brown and breaks me out in a cold sweat?

If our leaders and politicians can't get it together and the regular working people sure as hell can't get it together, who is left to run the insane asylum? That's not a rhetorical question or some tin foil hat BS. Think about it!!!!

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Well, the good news, I think, is that even repubs are angry now at these bonuses. And if they convince their reps to work with the Dems to solve the problems facing the nation, it would be a great blessing. A great, great blessing. Because god knows we need some blessings now.

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It all started with Matt Drudge. Give credit where credit's due. Does anyone keep statistics on the number of hits different sites get each day? How does TPM do compare with other sites for example.

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Here's one site JMac. TPM, Drudge & Huffpo.

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Thanks very much. I've just discovered that you don't always know when someone answers a question until you go to a comment history page.

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You may have figured this out already, but if you go to your comment section you can go back to check and see if anyone has answered. Also, if you "follow" then when anyone you are following makes a post, comment or rec, it shows up on your dashboard (although if you are following a bunch of prolific people, unless you are watching all day, you may miss it.) Your best bet is still to go back to your question several times during the day, as you are able to.

It's tough being new around here, but well worth the effort to find your niche...

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I think we have to find the belief that underpins their world-view. They definitely assume they can talk their way out of anything. That would suggest, to me at least, a form of linguistic idealism--the belief that the world is nothing but an extension of language. But if that were the case, it still wouldn't explain why they feel their language trumps another language--another presentation of the facts.

To me, that suggests a special kind of linguistic idealism. This kind must appeal to certain presentations of facts as more weighty than other presentations of facts--regardless of their accuracy. One wonders then, what use the word 'fact' plays in the explanation. Obviously, their belief system places 'fact' right up there with 'breadstick' and 'middle finger'.

So I think this creepy world--where power determines truth--is grounded in story-telling. But I mean story-telling outside the context in which we usually attribute it. Story-telling is used--in a sane world--to REPRESENT an event. In this other world--where power determines truth--story-telling is used to PRESENT an event.

I think, in the deepest levels of their pre-conscious mind, they BELIEVE that no distinction exists between these two. They believe that story-telling as representation and story-telling as presentation are one and the same. I think that is what underpins this world-view, and I think that is sad.

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Going back to your first premise, finding the belief that underpins their world view. I like that question.

For me the answer lies in this. I suggest that they believe they are smarter than others. That they can bamboozle them. That their lies will never be found out because they are so smart - and by extension we are so dumb.

Now I could be wrong about that. But I recall thinking that about teenagers. They think they are smarter than you are. They're gonna try and weasel their way into things or out of things. And maybe power goes to the head of leaders like it does to teenagers.

I can see you're using a vocabulary from somewhere, but honestly, and forgive me, I'm getting confused by your abstract terms. I'm interested, don't get me wrong. But I'm confused. By parsing the abstractions it sounds as if you're saying "they can't help themselves". Now maybe you're not saying that, but if you are, it would absolve them of responsibility and no way do I want to see them off the hook here. (that's what I'm getting from
your assertion that "in the deepest levels of their pre-conscious mind, they BELIEVE that no distinction exists between these two")

Though I like your story-telling idea (which is what a lie is, I think). And your idea that power, for them, is a way of controlling the "truth" - or what they assume we'll agree they can call the "truth". (you're saying "fact" but I think we're meaning the same "lying" stuff)


If you can explain this in a way that insists they take responsibility for lying - and in a way I can follow (forgive me, I'm simply lost in the abstractions) - then I'll accord your argument some weight. Meanwhile, I'm stuck with my own theory - which I've used at times in understanding some lies teenagers tried to tell.

I'd hate to have any reason to let them off the hook.

Thanks for your original question. And taking time to think this through.

I hope to see more of you. You bring a novel way of thinking and reasoning. Which I hope to learn to follow better....

I sure agree with your last sentence though. Yes, it's sad.

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Oops, accidentally started a new thread. What's below should be under here.

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Never fear. We all do it! ;)

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Wow! I really appreciate the candid feedback!!!!

I do tend to be too abstract. I certainly don't want to absolve them of responsibility. I can see why my post would suggest that they can't help it.

Let me modify. I think that they have an AWARENESS that their world-view is like a map. I think that they also hold the knowledge that a map is not reality. So I think that they CHOOSE to blur the distinction between the map and the world--between story-telling as presentation and story-telling as representation.

I think Scott Peck talked about this best. To paraphrase: The map is only a means, not an end. We have to remain open to changing the map. We have to allow that some input cannot be charted anywhere on our current map. We have to be humble enough to accept that our map is, and always will be, a work-in-progress. Which goes back to your original point: the "I'm smarter than you mentality." If we believe the map is a perfect representation of reality, then we think we're infallible.

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The map is not the territory. Lots of people have used that phrase, but I came to it through Gregory Bateson.

To your point, MBH. I remember in college, when friends would gear up for their job interviews with the big management consultancies. These were entirely enjoyable-to-be-around people, funny, smart as hell, imaginative, compassionate even. One Aussie friend woke up (hungover) one morning, staggered about, and when asked what he was doing, replied that he was "Screwing on his McKinsey head." And once suited & booted, he was able to spiel out Management Consultanese like a native.

But they ALL knew it was a game, ALL said they'd only go into the business to make some cash, pay down debt, stash some savings... and then go become doctors or archaeologists or scientists or whatever. I know none that did. (And remind them of this, when I see them.)

In short, at a deeper level - at least for those who weren't "to the manor born," but rather came to it from the working/middle-class - they KNOW their story to be... a con. They may fight for it, and their arguments may be brilliant, along with their debating skills, but they all understand, this is a head they screwed on at some point in the past. Not their own.

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I went through a time of adoring the thinking of Gregory Bateson! I learned a lot from him. Like about stochastic process.

I like your explanation, quinn. That they know they're playing a game. But is there a point where some people's need to "win" the game becomes so strong that they lose perspective? Or that it's no longer "playing" but something else? I'm thinking of the sociopaths, I guess. Because they know they're conning too. But for them it's part and parcel of who they are.

Mind you, I realize I switched horses in the middle of that paragraph. But I'm a pondering soul. And lying is a fascinating topic in some ways. Children "learn" to do it. And that learning is part of their awareness of a separate self, a separate mind - and maybe part of play-acting early on too.

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Yeah, it is a game. I think they go into it knowing it's a game. But I think that at some point, they start to forget that it's a game. Just like you said, they rationalize and justify their way into the game (pay off debt, stash away savings), but eventually, I think, they lose touch with what's outside the game. They may have the awareness that their story is a con, but they will put all their energy into playing make-believe that it's not a con--which is why we consider these people so not self-aware. I think that's who we deal with on the national stage, people who have forgotten it's a game--people who have convinced themselves that the head they screw on is their own.

I mean, I think we all go through that process to a certain extent. We all--so to speak/copy--try on different heads. I think that's in our nature as social animals. But I think that what separates the reality-blind Wall Street executive from an experimenter is an awareness of the experimentation and the long-term will to remain in touch with and true to the real world.

I enjoy what you say. I wonder what your friends say when you remind them of their intentions...

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To MBH & Thera. There are some people for whom deep greed, resentment, amorality etc. seems to have been at their core since childhood, and I don't know what to call them. But then there's that whole level of people who went through the Ivy League, Oxbridge, LSE & so on. While some seem to think they all came through hermetically-sealed MBA tunnels, a lot didn't. They came out of math, history, English, politics; or had friends in that world; or came out of communities & families that weren't of that world. So the question is, can be a reasonably normal person be broadly-educated, humane, up through ages 22-24... then adopt a mindset that it quite deeply opposed to that... and then HOLD IT IN PLACE when a crisis hits?

Of the ones I know, there's SOME real trauma. A bit like doctors facing a Plague, failing to cure it, then sensing that it may be being passed on in part through their actions. Some of them actually talk like this, and are getting out - not just running away, but questioning. I wonder how many of them will surface & start telling tales in court, or leaking to the press, etc. (Now granted, a lot of them are also NOT yet questioning things.)

The ones I worry about more are the "wannabe's." It's the local scammers and hot shots and wheeler dealers who never quite made it huge on a national level, but who are now angry as hell that they never got the killing they felt was rightfully theirs. Because there are 10,000 of these people for every 1 who made it. Every town is littered with them - in their mansion that wanted to be an estate, their hot car that actually isn't all that classy. There's even a lot of working class & middle class people in this space. A lot of these realtor/car-dealer "made money but never made a killing" folks are angry as hell, and can wreak real damage if they get a "populist" angle through which they can drive their resentment.

Nietzsche knew that mind well, and the history of Europe says we need to be careful about this group. Yes, it was shocking how much the old Aristos and big Industry bought into the nastiest stuff in the 30's, but some of these more middling, resentful folks led the charge. Pierre Poujade & his movement in France always stuck in my mind, along with his later follower, Le Pen. Wiki on Poujade.

Santelli's little riot smelt & felt like that to me. the anger of the guys close enough to almost touch it, but then, it's snatched away.

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Thanks for the link. Wow: Poujadism. Looks a lot like Rush Limbaughism. Around 400,000 anti-intellectuals demonizing all income taxes and protecting their rural territories against a collective industrialization. What was it about history and patterns?

Good thing all Poujadists did was make a lot of noise.

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You're right in the Rush thing - and think Joe the Plumber and Palin. Anti-elites, pro-wars, anti-tax.... But they got 3 million votes (400,000 party members), and they stand, for me, as a model of that thing that rises up from time to time. How's this for a quote - and worth remembering that the movement drew on BOTH Left & Right for some time:

"Am I and my movement not, in some sense, the inheritors of all those who have, throughout our history, taken up their picks and pitchforks against the abuses of a centralised power....?"

I realize their are better historic examples at home, but sometimes looking outside helps me see things. And they definitely contributed to the end of the French 4th Republic, and the creation of the 5th - a major change in the system.

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I totally agree. We have to put events in broader and broader contexts. Otherwise we cannot understand the meaning of the texts, subtexts, and pretexts.

That's so cool that this sort of populist sentiment is rooted in centuries past and an ocean away. I think that gives hope/the confidence that we can harness it/control it.

I also like what you say about Nietzsche's understanding of the mindset in Europe. I think that's dead on. God is dead. Or as Marcos Moulitsas puts it, the sentiment that, "I never fail, I only am failed [by others]."

It's a sense of an external locus of control. I think they feel helpless--which they don't want to believe is within their own control. And I think, as you're pointing to in your quote, centralized power becomes the SYMBOL for all the wrongs that been done to them--all the expectations gone unmet.

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You're good, quinn. Excellent description. Pathological dependency could feed that kind of resentment. And you've traced it right back to childhood, to a kind of entitlement, driven by unmet needs. Like a biting kind of need. A vicious need. It's different than narcissism. I'd call it pathological dependency - of which they're unaware really. A character disorder. For those you've described who are coming out of that childhood syndrome you've described. Amoral because "entitled" maybe. But resentful as heck - if the need outlet is blocked. And yes, I can see the danger. A kind of seething undercurrent that could boil over - once they see that their expectations are going down in flames.

Most of us have simply revised our view of things. We're all in this together. But these other folks don't feel "real" connections to others. We're a "tool" to be manipulated. Or an enemy.

So far I've described the wannabes.

And the others... yes, I think there may be a lot of soul searching in some.

Here's something interesting. In Europe they're selling more books! Many of the university types may be searching for meaning out of this. Some may just be tuning out. In the US the unemployed are deluging the volunteer organizations. (I was actually thinking of a post looking at the differences, based on some articles. Not sure if I will or not, but fascinating differences. And differences too - based on European social safety nets vs the yawning chasms here of no health care and little unemployment protection.)

So some of these people, reading or volunteering, may be soul-searching. In one article I read, there were people looking back at finance jobs with a kind of horror and really appreciating the "soul satisfaction" of the volunteer work they were doing. Could be interesting down the road, if some people turn from a focus on money to a focus on giving and sharing or reflecting more.

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I think the manor born know quite well what a con it is but simultaneously also believe that the accident of their birth proves their superiority and that it is their "destiny" to be better than the rest of us. Contradictory? Of course! But there you are.

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Here's the thing, oleeb. The manor born do not need to prove themselves. They already have arrived. They know it's a con, but for them the con can remain a game. Cuz they "won" at birth! Whereas the "not to the manor born" need to "succeed" - by dint of striving. And of course, no amount of striving will ever get them a "manor born" pedigree. But still, they can have the "faux manor" if they really make it. (If it's no longer makeable, however, uh-oh!)

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I'm glad you came back. And I'm glad you're not letting these folks off the hook. And your map idea helps me. They want to sell the map as the territory. It's their map. They made it. And it's a product they're "selling" - using an advertising type strategy. For me that fits, even though I've maybe tweaked it a bit from how you wrote it.

And it fits with that long post I wrote about "systemic deception" and how it pervades our culture now and seems to be tied together by advertising, by everything becoming a commodity to be "sold" (advertised) - using basic human needs, which they co-opt just like the tv ads do.

At least that's where I get to when I start using your idea.

And please chime in more here! We need every able-bodied mind - to coin a term!

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Yes! Tweak away! That's perfect!

"Everything becomes a commodity." You're so right. That is part of our culture--it's a systemic affect. Through advertising, people become commodities too. Sometimes we interact that way, with I-it relationships instead of I-you relationships. Sad.

Back to one of the main points in your blog itself. The Internet! Yes, the tool of reckoning!!! It does pour light on these transactions. It's beautiful. As one of my text-books puts it, the business world is no longer structured as a pyramid; it's networks that rule. And now with blogging, the networks are overseen closely. You're so right. This brings a level of accountability that many have not accepted yet. And if they haven't by now, it's going to hurt like hell when they get the picture. Great post--as always!

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Thanks for your kind words. I hope you'll chime in more! :)

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I'm feeling rather cynical today so personally, I don't think "they" are particularity smart, just slimy, used car salesmen who know their market. In the illustrious words of Forest Gump, stupid is, as stupid does.

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Good analogy: slimy, used-car salesmen. Who could disagree?

But same principle, eh? They think they can pull the wool over our eyes. That we can be manipulated. And actually your analogy leads to another important part of this puzzle. That is how they work together to roll us over. Just like car salesmen do. They never work alone. They work as a team.

Yup. You've moved the discussion, I'd say. Thanks!

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TheraP but this is the thing and I don't even care how pretentious I sound. "We," you, me, the majority of people here at TPM are not their market. We are not the people they are preaching to. That's what has my panties in a bunch.

I've been trying to give a lot of Americans the benefit of the doubt for years but too many people in this country, really aren't smarter than a 5th grader. It's not because they are dumb but lazy. Too lazy to read, to research, to THINK!!!!!

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Ok, I see where you're coming from. And not only is there a "market" that they're trying to "play" - but they want to turn that group against us as well. To make it a do or die thing. Like you're either with us ("good guys") or against us (like those bad guy terrorists).

I hear you. Which, I think, is why Obama is making such a big play for the ground game - the grassroots supporters at all social levels. If he succeeds in that, there is hope. If not, we're sunk! (I fear)

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EXACTLY!!!!

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It is a new paradigm, and you’re quite right that it’s very difficult for the powers-that-be to put things over anymore. But they are learning to play the new game and this case might be one instance of reverse engineering the blogosphere-media feedback loop to their own ends.

In this case, the unfair bonus story is stoked for a while then numbers are released with the conventional wisdom that they will be buried between news cycles. But instead the story is picked up and explodes (with a little help from “anonymous sources”). The story meant to foment populist anger at AIG employees seemed to be too widespread and coordinated.

The bonus story and the little back-stories around it get even more play through the blogosphere-media loop, so much that the bigger story (where the AIG money is going), released at the same time the “blame Dodd” story, is all but ignored.

As Michael Hudson wrote in CP today:

Here’s the problem with all the hoopla over the $135 million in AIG bonuses: This sum is only less than 0.1 per cent – one thousandth – of the $183 BILLION that the U.S. Treasury gave to AIG as a “pass-through” to its counterparties. This sum, over a thousand times the magnitude of the bonuses on which public attention is conveniently being focused by Wall Street promoters, did not stay with AIG. For over six months, the public media and Congressmen have been trying to find out just where this money DID go. Bloomberg brought a lawsuit to find out. Only to be met with a wall of silence.
Until finally, on Sunday night, March 15, the government finally released the details. They were indeed highly embarrassing. The largest recipient turned out to be just what earlier financial reports had rumored: Paulson’s own firm, Goldman Sachs, headed the list.

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Hey Don Key. By accident or design, the news that we're going to print $1.25 TRILLION more dollars, to buy T-Bills and Mortgages, happened to find its way out today.... news that for most of the day at least, was buried under AIG's hearings.

Imagine that. ;-)

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Isn't that where the real danger of collapse lies if we stay on this course? That the $trillions the Treasury is creating out of thin air will eventually lead to hyperinflation and spin dollar value off into a death spiral?

I'm really asking because I get dizzy thinking about the economy (just like when I contemplate the creation of the universe).

Is there an economist in the house? Dean Baker? Ellen? Hello???

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quinn's pretty good at that, I think! He thinks about that stuff. He's a whiz-bang guy in many areas!

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I don't think many economists are worrying about hyper-inflation in the foreseeable future - the lights, rather, are all lined up for "deflation." Depression. Which is ugly enough.

What I'm watching is the Dollar. If the US makes it clear that they are just going to print money, endlessly, then there's an awful lot of people who are going to rethink parking money here. Today, the dollar dropped 3% inside an hour. Going to be interesting to see how it trends. But a falling dollar would have some interesting consequences. The price of oil would rise... along with a lot of other imports, for starters.

And then, what if the US just KEPT ON printing? I'm not sure anyone knows. Not sure how many times it's happened in history that the global reserve currency & superpower reached this kind of a state.

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That's what worries me as well. Deflation. Though I lack the "tools" to analyze much. But there goes all our money's "worth".

Another topic, sort of. But quinn, do you think the Fed printing money is an alternative to that extra stimulus package? Like an end round around the Congress? So Obama doesn't have to fight for that? And it's a done deal? Or is this in addition to another stimulus package - and all the fight that goes with it?

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like an "end run" around the congress...

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Deflation worries me too. I mean, just to type out loud, unemployment ripples. One person loses their job, they buy less. The store at which they used to shop sells a little less. That store has a little less to pay their employees. Those employees have a little less to buy from the stores at which they usually buy......... and on.... and on....

So demand is what falls. If demand falls, so does the price of the supplies. If demand falls a lot--like if unemployment reached say 12%--then the price of supplies falls a lot.

If that's the case, then printing money is not necessarily a bad thing at all. Printing money keeps production from being devalued as the price drops. With more money, comes more spending. With more spending, comes more demand. With more demand, comes an equilibrium in price. With an equilibrium in price, comes healthy commerce. With healthy commerce, comes a healthy economy.

I know that's simplistic. But is that right?

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Don't look at me?

I see deflation leading to people losing a place because the value of the real estate is way lower than their mortgage. And I envision all these strip malls like ghost towns. I can already see vacant places.

But I am no economist. Far from it. I just hang, paddle like crazy, and hope I make it to shore!

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It's a complement to the stimulus, but also... a bit of an end-run around Congress, the banks, and buyers of Gov't bonds. It looks like the Fed is moving toward direct lending themselves, doing things they haven't done in 50 years. They also hope it'll drop interest rates further, for everyone, and that should pump up demand.

MBH, I think you've got the standard argument. And I suspect it has some value. I just think the ripple/domino effect you described is quite powerful. In addition, people feel they have to save more for the future, and also pay down debt... so money that would've hit their palm and been spent a year ago, will now get stashed.

I think we also have a problem in that we've heavily overbuilt and overbought in housing & cars - which make up 1/2 of all consumer spending. We now have 3 square feet per person where we had 1 square foot in 1950, and we have on average MORE than 1 car per licensed driver. And there are DOZENS of ways people can wring more use out of houses & cars, so we could see demand - even re-inflated - plateau at levels far below what we once saw. Kids will stay at home longer, Srs will live with children, basements will become apartments - lots of ways to avoid building a new house. Same with cars - run them longer, public transit, the soaring growth of car-sharing, more coordination of trips, turning Jr's 3rd car into a family 2nd car, etc.

So if car and housing purchases never return to the levels we once saw.... plus people save more and pay down debt... plus future taxes to pay for the deficit, and higher prices for imported goods... Well, even if you stop the downward spiral, can you re-pump the economy up to the levels it was at under Bush?? I'd say, no chance. I think we could be looking at 10%-20% lower consumption, and in economic terms, that is an ungodly big amount - there is NO way Gov't spending can be increased to fill all that on any sustained basis.

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Okay, now I'm really scared. It's those unknown unknowns that get you every time.

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Q what if the entire currency problems could become a tool for a real redistribution of wealth in this country. I do not see why everything has to work against the poor and the middle class.

But what do I know.

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I like the quwstion, DD. In a way, that is what government does- redistribute wealth to some degree or other. I do believe this global economic collapse demands that the system be overhauled and redistribution cones with any system change. The question is- will it be primarily redistributed up (always in the name of trickle-down job creation, that little “gun to the head” called earning a living) or down. We know, at this point, it’s going the “way of the gun,” that is, the status quo. Will that change?

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All we can do is pray and watch left wing blogs for petitions to sign and to get ideas to write to our congressmen and congresswomen.

I do not want status quo.

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I think that will change. Taxes will do that. And maybe other ways. Lack of bonuses. Lower salaries for certain folks. Better minimum wage etc. We can hope and pray and work for that.

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I think our best contributions are exactly what TheraP is posting about here. The ability of bloggers alternative media as a kind of smart-crowd-sourcing "truth squad" keeping pols and the press honest and forthcoming.

There is a collective wisdom that bubbles up from this electronic cauldron that gets closer to nuanced reality than vested institutions ever can or will. Even if power interests try to use or manipulate the blogosphere, that is picked up and turned against them.

Then, let democracy do its work.

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I think you're right, don. :)

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Dick, as you often do, you've put your finger on a very very big one IMO. Right now, it's all being talked about in terms of "who gets bailout/stimulus cash?" But imagine this film keeps playing, and doesn't right itself or "return to normal?" You could see the entire existing distribution of wealth - not just income - brought into real question. Sooner or later, and Madoff & co. are early signs, people are gonna say not just "Who's making money out of this ion bonuses?" But, "Who MADE MONEY & STASHED IT during an incredibly corrupt period?"

As the circles widen, and this thing continues, we're going to see circle after circle of questioning about who makes what, who gets what, and who MADE what in the past. Once you start asking that, and if we're in a perceived "panic," then you will see taxation policy change, compensation law change, wealth taxation come roaring into vogue, as well as the whole gamut of government lending, spending, building and owning change.

There are some who even think the chaos will go far enough that we effectively have to hit the "reset" button, and an awful lot of things will be reset to zero.

I prefer a more moderate scenario, I have to say, but I tell you - if we're revamping everything, I'd have wealth taxes galore, health care and energy on a new footing, etc. etc. Looks to me like the engines are already gently tugging that way.

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I missed this Q. You give me hope.

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I think what you're describing is exactly what I was feeling this morning. The churn. The frustration of so many stories, pro and con, coming so fast. And yes, you point out something important. Is something a real issue or the barn on fire while the house is being robbed? You make some very good points. But here's the problem. Even if the "powers that be" wanted to seed ferment - on the web, on tv, in print - once they sow the seeds they really can't control what comes up. And yes, in some ways, the Dodd thing was the tipping point here. But I'm not really sure "who won" - if there's a "win" to be had here. You're suggesting it was the burying of the news of Goldman - the center point of the TARP turning world, it would seem. As well as the centerpoint of all the big players able to move the chips around at the govt table.

I'm not really sure. Are you? But I'm fascinated. And maybe the chips haven't all fallen into place yet. Or will they? When will they?

Thanks immensely for your thoughtful comment. Please help us out more here! Dear god, we need good minds!


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Good points and I don’t know. I think most of the spin takes place on the fly, taking advantage of whatever’s going on, but the spinners are still planning and promoting their particular cause. In this case, anonymous sources sure as hell don’t leak how much the Fed is funneling out the backdoor to who knows who. I’ve always felt that the economic “crisis” that forced Paulson and Bernanke to instigate this bailout of the too big to fail was real and demanded government action. But the “how?” and the “who?” were never debated by the public in this great democracy (hardly by congress even). The DOW was falling, so the impending doom didn’t allow enough time for little niceties like planning and reforming the system that caused it.

I think everyone knew that once the program was started, it couldn’t be stopped (short of huge public outcry). It’s not just GS, but the whole program was created in a back room by the guys who were “failing” (remember the original $700 billion TARP was a three-page unfettered authorization to Paulson (probably handwritten on a Russian Tea Room napkin). Isn’t it strange though that when bailout funds were put on the table, all of a sudden, almost every big bank was on the verge of collapse. We should be leery of having wolves rounding up the chickens that are left.

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One thing this has done. We're all focused on this like little lasers. We're not even sure what we're seeing or what exactly to focus on - but sure as shooting our attention is riveted to these events and the unknowns.

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Quite in line with this thread comes the revelation that Senator Dodd is responsible for the insertion of a loophole protecting the AIG bonuses at the request of the administration.

This is a perfect example of lies being outed!

At first, Dodd lies shamlessly as all the Democrats on the Hill and in the executive claim to know nothing about it. But slowly the truth starts coming out. Dodd now admits it, but makes it clear he was operating at the behest of Treasury staff. Don't be surprised if the Secretary himself was involved in making sure this loophole was included in the stimulus. Don't be surprised if Herr Summers also had a hand in this. I hope it goes no higher.

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That's the story I thought I'd understood this morning, from Jane Hamsher yesterday. And her thread made it clear that this was Dodd caving in to Treasury. (To both Gaithner and Summers) And why wouldn't it go higher? Obama already took responsibility this afternoon.

But thanks, oleeb.

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I got a kick out of the fact that Greenwald, who may sometimes generalize but never backs down from the truth as ascertainable, implicated Rahm Emanuel (with a strike-through) as the anonymous source blaming Dodd, when it was at Geithner and Sumners' insistence that Dodd take out his limits on bonus pay outs.

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Well.... who knows? But yes, Glenn will never back down. I can take him some of the time, but not all of the time.

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Here's Jane Hamsher's latest post on this Dodd thing. He changed it - pressured by "staff people" at Treasury:

http://firedoglake.com/2009/03/18/aig-me-a-wacky-day-on-the-hill/

Which is essentially what I understood this am.

So he did it - under duress - and would not have made that change on his own. He was changing his own amendment - for them.