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Auto Execs Urge Tax on Fuel of Up To $8.00


Now why on earth would anyone listen to auto execs in matters of finance or management?

Not to mention this implies some serious government intervention into the marketplace and looks to me to be a tax which will be directly handed over to auto manufacturers and most assuredly to big oil as well. It's not like corporations haven't shafted American citizens enough. They keep coming back for seconds and thirds and ... who knows.

This would spur the use of mass transit which is already straining because people are  increasingly changing to mass transit for their work commute. If this happens I can envision a real train wreck. It would take some heavy investment in mass transit to accommodate all those who would have no choice except to use mass transit.

Read about this insanity here


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That's a fascinating development. Actually they are urging an increase of taxes so that the pump price gradually reaches $8/gal by 2020. IOW, at least some automakers believe that low-priced gasoline can't last forever, and that they will have to sell more efficient cars to survive.

With fluctuating gas prices, guzzlers look good one month while sippers look good the next, so manufacturers want some predictability in the marketplace. They accept that the trend will be an increase in fuel prices, so they want that trend to be clear to consumers.

I'll certainly feel the pain of higher fuel costs, but this makes more sense to me than giving someone $3,500 to replace their full-size pickup.

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I don't know about that. Between home energy costs and vehicle energy costs this means people could well be looking at 25% of a $60K annual income being budgeted for energy costs. That's nuts.

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Betting your future on low fuel prices is nuts. I don't know if the recession will keep prices down or if something will drive them up, but I know that prices can rise, and quickly.

People in Europe pay about $7/gal for auto fuel right now, but most pay about the same as the US for heating fuel.

http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/international/prices.html

It will be more painful to accept high prices here because we have relied on cheap transportation for so long. But we must adapt.

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Numbnuts, the idea behind making gas more expensive is that you will use less of it. People will drive much less and/or use much more efficient forms of transportation including cars that get much better gas mileage or better yet don't use gas at all.

So a person who buys an all electric car or who decides to take the bus and subway instead of driving to work will pay $0 for gasoline.

If you don't understand this please don't post again.

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No need to be confrontational.

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Response was to poster above you. And well stupidity does need to be confronted from time to time.

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I knew who it was meant for, but you won't convince anyone by insulting them.

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Fine. Then figure out how we're going to fund a mass transit system that can support alternate modes of travel and how we're going to manage to supply an electric grid that will support an electric vehicle fleet. Should be no problem for a fucking genius like you.

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Sigh. Of course it will raise revenue because for some people it will still be worth it to buy the gas AND it will dissuade the type of behavior that imposes costs on those who are not directly consuming the product. This is what happens in Europe and everywhere else they have very high gas taxes.

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We have a bigger problem than Europe or Japan. I have lived both places and went everywhere on trains. We have a public transport system solely based upon our highways and the automobile. The cost to make a fundamental change in our philosophy of public transportation at this stage is staggering. And thats on top of a projected bill that now stands between $2.5T and 3.0T to do a lot of major work on our public infrastructure that was largely constructed in a post depression era. Just as an example we don't have a single major hydro-power installation (dam) that is not at or very near the end of it's projected lifespan. Our total current electric generation capacity (all forms) barely exceeds our needs. We can't provide (right now) enough power onto an electric grid, that doesn't exist, in a form that is capable of supporting an all electric fleet or even a 25% electric fleet.

Where this is coming to a head is nobody wants to tackle the issue of how we are going to pay for all of this. It means a huge investment over two or three decades and if it is going to happen at all it means profits will have to take a hit and be redirected to the effort. This has to be done. If we have any intent of staying in the game there is no choice. Frankly, nobody in government or the private sector even wants to talk about this.

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Consider this chart and then tell me whether you think we will generate more revenues from taxes on profits income or consumption.

You might also note that the widening gap between compensation and earnings is largely due to the growing cost of health care (including public programs such as Medicare).

Oh, and we spend about 4% of gdp too much on health care. We should spend 12%, when now we spend 16%. That's about $600 billion a year. In other words we have some massive mis-allocation of resources.

Some doctors nurses and hospital administrators might be surprised when we ask them to build light rail tracks, but basically there are all the resources you would need.

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The chart is good but it's also something we've been experiencing for quite some time. Downward pressure on wages has been a screwed up attempt to close the gap between the U.S. labor market and others, principally our Asian competitors. That is a dumb idea because our economies are so different.

One of our biggest problems on the manufacturing side is China, the state, heavily subsidizes the cost of energy on a nationwide basis. I know it isn't possible for us to do that but core services such as energy, where it's a for profit service in some countries and where it's nationalized in others makes a plate of scrambled eggs for competition. In the U.S. energy is one of our biggest cost factors.

And you correctly point out healthcare cost is another that on a national basis hurts us a lot. We really need a single payer system to get those costs into single digits.

It is a bit crazy that we brag about our high productivty but have some notable segments which are anything but efficient in relative terms.

The other thing where we have a big differential is for those items where other nations have nationalized something it keeps the cost for them low and reduces wage pressure. In the U.S. our costs for many of those same things keeps going up. If workers have any hope of getting their kids a good education so we can compete, wages have to at least stay even. That hasn't been the case for going on three decades.

There is one more piece to this crazy pie worth mentioning. The U.S. has made it attractive for corporations to seek those places on a global basis which have the overall least cost of manufacturing. That is great for profits but in large measure on the tax side it's broken. For U.S. corporation they have the upside and mitigate the downside. This has also served to accelerate the shift of wealth up our economic ladder and made worse our issues with class struggles.

For far too long we have legislatively put profits before everything else and have effectively excluded other equally important outcomes. This imbalance now has us in a bind. This is true on the domestic and foreign side alike. There has to be an accommodation made to account for nations managing their various national cost centers differently. The mantra of free trade without effective mechanisms for achieving trade and currency equity to keep things in balance cannot work. That scheme has devastated our middle class and turned our socio-economic scheme on its head. Our particular economic unit has to provide an overall outcome that satisfies requirements for all contributing elements which then yields a self sustaining economic unit.

Exclude or short change one piece and you impact the overall unit. This means take all the revenue and distribute those to meet the needs of all contributing elements and then what is left is profit. Profit comes last. If there isn't any, so what? At least you will have guaranteed that the overall unit is sustained.

Having lived in Europe and Asia I am familiar with this. Both make it work out so in the end there is the appearance of not having made any money. But all the needs are in fact met. And there is a lot more money there than meets the eye. It's just allocated differently to meet a broader set of requirements with no negative influence on the overall national wealth.

We have one more thing that is horribly out of whack. On the public side we have states and municipalities that actually work a regular contractual 32 hour work week. Their labor productivity is in the toilet. In the private sector, especially in manufacturing, the norm is in excess of 50 hours. U.S. productivity numbers look great. But government isn't part of that equation. If you add all the people in government our numbers look very different. Government is just as much a part of our workforce and the productivity equation as any other.

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I would prefer a $10/gallon price rather than $8/gallon, but even more desirable would be an across-the-board tax on carbon, not just gasoline. It would indeed have to be imposed in increments rather than suddenly, but it's imperative if we're to dodge the global warming bullet by incentivizing the expedited development and utilization of commercialy viable alternatives to fossil fuels.

The economic impact would be non-trivial, but not nearly as severe as that of unmitigated climate change. The important challenge will be to allocate the cost increases in a manner that imposes them on those who can afford them, utilizing tax credits and other subsidies to compensate lower income individuals for increased fuel costs.

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Agree, Fred, agree.

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Arbitrary dollars amounts don't make sense--whether is is 8 or 10 or 7.95.

There is a tax level which covers the external costs which are not captured in the market price. There is a tax level which induces behavior change. There is a tax level that provides sufficient revenue to make investments in technology or infrastructure that make alternative fuels better and more readily available, etc... Where the line falls on e each one of those objectives I don;t know, but it is an empirical number, not an arbitrary choice. Gradually increasing until you find what that point is makes sense. Setting the rate too high because you want to use the tax just to generate more revenue will probably undermine the case.

By the way we probably tax cigarettes more than we need to to cover the cost that smoking imposes on the rest of society (not sure if we tax enough to change behavior enough) and we probably tax alcohol way too little.

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I agree in principle, Econimides, but I also believe that any increase that would be feasible politically would inevitably be lower than an increase capable of producing optimal reductions in greenhouse gas emissions. None of the realistic IPCC scenarios for CO2 emissions curtailment envision anything better than a partial mitigation of adverse consequences as opposed to a degree of reduction that would be ideal in either environmental or economic terms.

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Well the greenhouse effects are the externalities, so by definition the "optimal" tax is the one that "pays" for the cost of mitigation, necessary. I assume that at some point the $'s necessary to create a total alternative to greenhouse producing fuel will be available in part due to the revenue raised from the tax and the behavior change leading to new demand for cheaper (non-greenhouse gas emitting) substitutes. What the actual $ amount is I do not know. If you have calculations to support $10 fine.

If that level of mitigation is not enough we are screwed and we have only ourselves to blame for not starting sooner. That or we'll have to use that giant sulphur hose to the sky thingy.

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This week in the Bay Area we experienced how mass transit can save a region. The Bay Bridge which handles about 280,000 cars a day was out of service for (I believe) 7 days and BART had to run 24hrs for a couple of day. The crowds were crushing. Otherwise it was nearly an hour and a half trip between Oakland and San Francisco; normally the trip only takes 11 to 15 minutes across the bridge the 8 mile span. I just wish the rate for transit would remain reasonable as it is pressed into higher service.

The jobs are in bracing the backbone of the mass transit system in the United States and we get the added benefit of being responsible for the environment. I understand that Portland may have received federal monies to expand there light rail service. I wish cities around the country would see the light on this issue. Driving (traffic) is suffocating their economy and the environment.

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I recall at age five or so seeing the end of the cable cars by the U.

Yes. Yes. Yes.

We need mass transit.

I spose that sounds communistic.

We all need our individual hummers and snowblowers and such.

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