CIA Interrogation Program: Why Prosecution would be unfair
This will be a brief discussion of why I at least am against prosecution for the CIA Program.
First we need some background understanding.
The story begins early in the "war on terror", after the attacks everyone assumed we would be hit again and there was great fear.
Six days after the Sept. 11 attacks, President Bush signed a sweeping finding that gave the CIA broad authorization to disrupt terrorist activity, including permission to kill, capture and detain members of al Qaeda anywhere in the world.
This is fine, and what we should do, but after 9/11 it is clear that the Bush administration wanted the law pushed to their limits, the administration wanted maximium latitude and authority to carry out the war on terrror.
Second we will need to discuss the Janurary 2002 Bybee memo, and the office of the OLC. here is where the story gettings interesting. The thing about an OLC memo is its force
The Office also is responsible for providing legal advice to the executive branch on all constitutional questions and reviewing pending legislation for constitutionality. The decisions of the Office are binding on all executive agencies.
The most important part is that highlighted party, unless overruled by the President, Attorney General or the Deputy Attorney General, if the OLC says it in a memo, then its Law for executive agencies.
Thus we are at a point, the Bush administration wants to push interpretation of the law to the limits to fight the war on terror and asks the OLC for advice, the OLC responds with the Bybee memo which, being an OLC memo, is now binding on all executive agencies, and what does it say?
he memo concludes that the restrictions are very limited — that only acts inflicting and “specifically intended to inflict severe pain or suffering”, whether mental or physical, are prohibited. Allowed are severe mental pain not intended to have lasting effects (pity if they do…), and physical pain less than that which acompanies “serious physical injury such as death or organ failure” (p. 46). Having opined that some cruel, inhuman, or degrading acts are not forbidden, only those that are “extreme acts” (committed on purpose)
as is pointed out
When the Senate ratified the Torture Convention in 1994 it stated “[t]hat the United States considers itself bound by the obligation under Article 16 to prevent ‘cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment,’ only insofar as the term ‘cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment’ means the cruel, unusual and inhumane treatment or punishment prohibited by the Fifth, Eighth, and/or Fourteenth Amendments to the Constitution of the United States.”
But what does the Fifth, Eighth and Fourteeth Amendments mean to a non U.S citizen in another country? what type of CID did the fathers intend to prevent the U.S from doing halfway across the world? A loophole may or may not have been created for the CIA. it goes as follows.
Treatment of Detainees
This we will break down now. What the CIA was thinking for sure obviously we don't know, but as a current Constitutional Law professor and former CIA prosecutor discusses here.
The Bush administration's stated policy against torture is consistent with the Consititution and with state and federal statues. Even so, for several years after 9/11, a loophole may have allowed the CIA to conduct interrogations that were severe but short of torture [Bybee Memo] - according to the administration's definition. This loophole depended on a distinction between "torture" and "cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment" (CID), two related concepts from the Convention Against Torture. Even before torture was made a federal crime, under the Constitution and other statutes, both torture and CID were illegal for interrogations within the United States. The federal statute, which was passed after the United States ratifed the Convention Against Torture, applies to torture outside the United States, making it a crmie if the offender is a United States national, or is present in the United States. This statute does not mention CID. Therefore, in interrogations that the CIA conducted on non U.S citizens outside the United States, CID may have continued past the December 2004 Office of Legal Counsel memorandum. The CIA, unlike the Defense Department, is not controlled by the strict standards of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. As a result, the CIA may have operated in a gary zone below its definition of torture but beyond what the criminal justice system permits in the questioning of suspects and defendants. For a while, the CIA may have felt safe to use CID, but not torture, on suspected terroirsts who were afforded fewer rights than American citizens.
The 2004 OLC memo "Levin Memo" stated in footnote 8
While we have identified various disagreements with the August 2002 Memorandum, we have reviewed this Office's prior opinions addressing issues involving treatment of detainees and do not believe that any of their conlcusions would be different under the standards set forth in this momorandum
as we noted the OLC memo is binding unless overruled, beyond describing the limitation of behavior for interrogators, the 2002 Bybee Memo also concluded that Common Article III did not apply to the U.S conflit with al Qaeda.
Here is the point of a legal gray area. The OLC memo says that Common Article III of the Geneva Convention doesn't apply espeically since it states
In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:
Thus before 2006 the OLC had interpreted laws and statues to say that the CIA could go pretty damn far, the problem is in 2006 the Supreme Court decided Hamdan v. Rumsfeld. This is the case that found Bush's military commissions were not sufficient and couldn't be used to try Hamadan for violating the laws of war, since the commissons themselves did not meet the standards of the UCMJ and Common Article III. in its decision the Supreme Court stated that Common Article III applied to ALL aspects of the U.S conflit with al Qaeda.
Problem with Common Article III
The problem with Common Article III? its vague, (yes this is what all that back and forth with Bush when he called the geneva convention vague was about)
as we discussed thanks to the OLC memos and their lawyers very agressive interpretation of laws, the CIA had acted under 4 years of belief that Common Article III did not apply and that CID was ok up to an extreme point. now that Common Article III appiled so did 3 important provisions
(a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment;
Here was the problem what does "outrages upon personal dignity, in particular humiliating and degrading treatment" mean? and whose perspective? the resonable person? al Qaeda? the terrorist? the reasonable terrorist? reasonable al Qaeda terrorist? Would not allowing a Muslim detainee to pray be an outrage upon personal dignity? its one thing to debate, but when you have been operating for 4 years, and must continue to do so, you want a little bit more guidance then "outrages upon pesonal dignity" espeically since it is a War Crime to violate ANY part of the Geneava Convention and the "following orders" (OLC Memo) is not an excuse.
and we all know what that means as, Michael points out at the end of his discussion of the 2002 OLC memo
Remember: the lawyers who wrote this memo were guilty of a lack of moral sense, and extreme tunnel vision fueled by a national panic. The people who asked them to write it, who read it, and especially any who may have acted on it — they’re people who really have the most to answer for.
Indeed and there is why I will be against any repeal of the Military Commissions Act of 2006 (precluding the widest application of Common Article III). The problem is the MCA can easily be deemed unconstitutional or change, and there is no stature of limitations for War Crimes. thus any CIA officer at the bottom who trusted an OLC memo they were never allowed to see, may or may not have commited War Crimes, which they could easily be prosecuted for in 20 years if the U.S Government in order to make some of the more liberal Americans happy ever decides it needs to fully prosecute torture.
at the very least, I don't support American's being proseucted for war crimes, because they were trying to do their job, and because some lawyers may have pushed their definitions and interpretations of law a little to hard.





How about we just prosecute the Principals?
January 26, 2009 11:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
I would love to. in fact this current post was in response to a things I've thought and written on my personal blog here about. lamenting how Bush is going to get away with this, and we call our selves a nation of laws!
but I have National Security Law currently with John Radsan, and he taught me Constitutional law - Powers (focus on the powers that the constitution gives, versus the Constutitional law - Liberties class that focus on the liberty side of the constitution). and it was discussing with him from his aspect as a CIA Lawyer from 2002-2004, wasn't there any way at all these people would or could be held accountable.
and he said for what?
and its really from that discussion and learning about the OLC and the actual progression of events, that I realized you almost can't touch the principals the only ones we can hit would be the bottom guys, the people who actually carried things out.
And in the end its a bit unfair, everything is vague because no one has wanted to really spell out what you can and cant do. its just a list of known can'ts. So after 9/11 people wanted to push the limit. Where is the limit when the limit is vague? So first Lawyers push an interpretation, because of this one line and other international cases, Common article 3 doesnt apply. and here is what torture is considered, so this is the line an d don't cross this.
4 years later it becomes actually the line may have been a mile back. This is why congress passed the MCA, but what do you do as a regular CIA person knowing at any day you can be charged with War Crimes if the MCA goes away or is ruled unconstitutional?
so in the end its just not fair, and it made me realize just how important the LAWYERS around these people really are.
January 26, 2009 11:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
So since John Yoo opined that the president may order the crushing of a child's testicles to compel the child's father to talk it is perfectly OK for the president to do so without consequences?
Look, just because some sycophantic attorney, such as Gonzales, Yoo, Haynes, Addington, or Bybee, tortures interpretation of federal and international law to justify actions which violate both international conventions and federal statutes does not mean those actions are legal, and that the "principles" who approved such cannot be held to account.
Hilter's top legal adviser was prosecuted in Nuremberg and sentenced to death.
Additionally, just because a professor of law holds to a certain legal opinion doesn't make it correct. John Yoo teaches law at Berkley.
January 26, 2009 12:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
no obviously there are limits, but what you did here was go to an extreme, the problem is there were trying to walk the line. I can't remember who said it was either Cheney or Rumsfeld who said they wanted chalk on the tip of their shoe.
Bybee, Yoo, Haynes, Addington tortured interpretation? don't you get it in 2003 its not a tortured interpretation its law.
and indeed people have opinions and can disagree so thats why there are chains of command and authority. You can believe what you want as an executive employee.
but if the OLC says it its LAW. unless The Supreme court, the President, the Attorney General or the Deputy Attorney General overrule it, the OLC memos are basically the governments top lawyers telling not what they THINK the law says, they are telling you what the law says, plain and simple.
in 2003 were harsh interrogation techniques illegal? ofcourse not! the OLC already concluded everything they were doing was legal especially since common article 3 didn't apply.
The point is, it may not be correct, but when the OLC says it, it is law unless otherwise overruled.
January 26, 2009 1:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, I see. Since the OLC opined that habeas corpus didn't apply to Guantanamo prisoners, then it didn't.
Well, in fact it did as the Supreme Court later ruled. The fact that it took the matter a few years to wend it way through the court system doesn't mean that denial of habeas corpus was legal until the Supreme Court ruled it wasn't. The fact is it was never legal. One can always find a sycophant to provide an opinion one wishes. Likewise with waterboarding and likewise Yoo's opinion that interrogators could beat the holy crap out of a prisoner as long as they didn't kill him or cause organ failure.
I understand the argument your presenting. I simply believe your argument is specious. I agree that the legal interpretations rendered by OLC should protect those who actually got their hands dirty torturing, but in no way protects the principles who rendered the incorrect legal opinions.
I suggest you read the portion of the Senate Armed Services Committee report on torture recounting the opinions of the military attorney who resisted the application of SERE techniques to prisoners and how Air Force attorney Alberto Mora faced down Rumsfeld.
January 26, 2009 1:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
I no where said I was talking about the principals.
I am just being realistic who is MORE likely to get prosecuted President Bush or some CIA operative at the bottom who wasn't waterboarding or any of the grave abuses but was doing something else that may touch that line.
I am making a very narrow argument, people have just wanted to broaden my original point to discuss many other things. also doesn't help with Gonzales today. but I am very limited and focused mostly due to and in response to the John Radsan piece.
January 26, 2009 5:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
That seems to be retty broad. You have narrowed your argument as commenters have demonstrated just how specious was the argument you put forth.
The argument you put forth is based upon the opinion of one professor, and a professor who has an interest in denying that the torture that in fact occurred met the legal definition of torture.
The FBI personnel recognized it as torture and withdrew. The legal counsels for the various branches of the military recognized that the Cheney administration was attempting to justify torturous interrogation methods and resisted.
In fact Rumsfeld, himself, recognized that torture was occurring when Alberto Mora called him on it and he withdrew his authorization.
January 26, 2009 6:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Office of Legal Counsel has no authority to make law. That power is vested solely in the Congress of the United States.
The Constitution and the laws made pursuant to it are the law of the land, an opinion by the Office of Legal Counsel notwithstanding.
January 26, 2009 3:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
And also thats my point.
Whether or not CIA officers were breaking the law now comes down to interpretations.
Their interpretations were bad, and at the very least incompetent, but they were not long after 9/11 when were trying to determine exactly where the line is.
and when 1 person goes to far in reading the law, how do you expect non-lawyers to realize it?
January 26, 2009 1:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Geneva Convention makes it clear that the Constitution of the signing countries takes a back seat.
Prosecute.
January 26, 2009 12:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Careful what you wish for. Once again, you have it ass-backwards though. It is The U.S. Constitution; Article VI; Clause 2; that gives the Geneva Conventions the force of Supreme Law of The Land:
As to your desire to prosecute, should it not include persons who have violated the Supreme Law of The Land?
The Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War is a treaty made under the Authority of the United States; therefore, it is The Supreme Law of The Land. The treaty cannot be abrogated by a High Contracting Party, once hostilities have been initiated. The relevant date for this discussion was September 11, 2001.
The Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War; Part I; Article 4(A); defines six classes of persons as Prisoners of war. Article 4(B) defines an additional two classes of persons who shall likewise be treated as prisoners of war. Article 5, paragraph 2; in its entirety states:
A Presidential finding, of and by itself, does not constitute a "competent tribunal". Defining combatants as "unlawful" without first making the determination in a competent tribunal, is a violation of The Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War; therefore, it is a violation of The Supreme Law Of The Land.
By all means; let the prosecutions begin.
January 26, 2009 2:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, ok Article IV of the Geneva convention doesn't apply here as this is not a war between two or more nation states.
The only part of the Geneva convention that may or may not have applied would have been Common Article III, which I already discussed the gray area with that.
January 26, 2009 2:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
War Upon Afghanistan?
War Upon Iraq?
It does apply.
January 26, 2009 2:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
unless I missed something al Qaeda is not consider citizens Iraq or Afghanistan.
thus the conflict of United States vs. al Qaeda is not considered between two nation states.
January 26, 2009 3:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Reread The Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War; Article 5; paragraph 2; I posted above then. It states "persons". There is no nationality associated with this term is there?
Even if this is overlooked, the very instant that these humans were detained as "unlawful combatants", they were being held as criminal actors by the US government, and the 13th Amendment dictates that they must be convicted in a trial that adhered to due process of law, before life, limb and/or property can be taken from them.
The whole process was in violation of the Constitution.
January 26, 2009 4:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Natural Rights are universal rights. They do not end at the border.
The Fifth Amendment begins with: "No Person". The Sixth Amendment begins with: "In all criminal prosecutions". Just what part of these phrases are you having trouble understanding? They are universal bars against tyrannical actions of the state, where ever the state reaches. This prohibition was reinforced with Section 1 of the Thirteenth Amendment:
Any place in the universe that the United States Government is able to command the detention of a human being is a place subject to its jurisdiction.
Liberty And Justice Is For All Or None.
January 26, 2009 1:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'd recommend this comment 10 times, if I could!
January 26, 2009 1:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Its easy to be vague and general and when you spout vague platitudes sure its easy to agree you still don't answer where the line is.
no one is ready to say here is the clear cut this torture, you can do right up to this and not cross the line. But thats what they wanted to know in 2002, for the first time ever someone wanted to know
but yes ok exactly how far ARE we allowed to go?
January 26, 2009 1:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
That is an absolutely ridiculous assertion. The development of the various Geneva Conventions were undertaking because folks wanted to know, likewise. The Nuremberg and other post WWII trials
January 26, 2009 1:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
indeed my point is when you get down to it
How long is it acceptable to keep someone standing?
How long can you keep them from sleep? and how much and to how far can you mix and max different techniques.
according to PCA the answer is
"I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic"
I guess thats down to the minute?
January 26, 2009 2:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
So water boarding constituted torture in the cases of Japanese tried for war crimes following WWII but not when used by USA personnel.
There is nothing "vague" about it.
January 26, 2009 4:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
There is no vagueness in:
"Against All Enemies, Foreign or Domestic" is clear as a bell.
January 26, 2009 2:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dammit, PCA. I cannot express enough my appreciation that you and I not only have the same understanding of the principles upon which this Republic stands, but that you possess such brilliant skill at making your point in irrefutable fashion.
Your contributions to this thread should be included in every civics 101 class convened in our schools. Had we done so in the past, Bush/Cheney would have stood in the well of the Senate defending their Impeachment long before they were ever given a chance at a second term.
Thank you for your perspective and your skill, and your willingness to share them. Bravo!
January 26, 2009 2:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
thank-you. over the last many years, with what personal force could be utilised, i have willed to be walkabout in The Dreamtime America. this has not been free or easy. Americans who understand what is at stake can only resist, or prostate themselves to lick the boot of tyranny.
We Are Americans, and as such are supposed to be better than the rest. We hold ourselves to higher standards than we do the rest of the world. We do not torture; we do not wage immoral war. When we do wage war, we hold ourselves to this higher standard, even if it means we must fight with one hand tied behind our backs, and we will still win, because we are Americans. This we do for one reason only: Because We Are Americans.
January 26, 2009 2:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Excellent.
January 26, 2009 6:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
It is this precept that destroys the Bush administration's assertion that prisoners held at Guantanamo had no rights under the Constitution.
Since the U. S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay exists through a treaty between the United States and Cuba, since the military personnel stationed there are under the command of the United States and because other powers of the United States government prevail there -- all under authority of the Constitution -- it is ludicrous to claim that certain other portions of the Constitution do not apply in Guantanamo Bay.
January 26, 2009 4:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
What authority proclaims that an opinion by the Office of Legal Counsel has the force of law?
Anyone?
January 26, 2009 3:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
It is my understanding that a memo is not a law. The memo by Yoo/Bybee is nothing but an Op-Ed on the law. They told the Pentagon what they wanted to hear. So I say you are right on that one.
January 26, 2009 4:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
TCDem's most frequent claim is that Common Article 3 does not apply to Guantanamo detainees. But Barack Obama disagrees. His announcement on the closure of Gitmo a few days ago read:
January 26, 2009 4:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
actually 2 things
1) I never said Guantanamo detainees, what i am talking about is more specific, the CIA program happened outside the U.S. that was one of the key things.
2) I said that the 2002 OLC memo that said Common Article 3 did not apply would have been law until overruled.
The fact that Obama just went and rescinded every OLC memo from September 11th 2001 - January 20th 2009th
doesn't change anything I said, it just shows the White House at least knows OLC memos are law until overruled and thus overruled them.
January 26, 2009 5:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
I understand. Sorry about the confusion.
Do you think the following US law created in 1994 may take care of the controversy? It was designed to enforce the CAT:
That's my emphasis.
http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/usc_sec_18_00002340---A000-.html
January 26, 2009 7:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Let me also cite the case of Boston-born Charles Taylor, who committed torture in Liberia and was charged by the US:
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2006/12/05/us-justice-dept-brings-first-charges-torture-abroad
January 26, 2009 11:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
John Yoo knew what the President wanted so he wrote it up. I think he got that "organ failure" phrasing from a Medicaid publication.
January 26, 2009 7:54 PM | Reply | Permalink