tblake's Blog

Tom Hollenbach Commented on Which Side Will Win? (GV2) by Tom Hollenbach

2009-02-13T21:28:17Z

Fascinating question, O. yes, I have definitely noticed a correlation between an insistence on dominance and use of projection as a defense mechanism. Projection, BTW, is usually a sign of a pretty weak ego structure, and people who use it a lot are difficult to deal with.

The way I think this works on a theoretical level is that dominance/submission relationshps have to do with an increased threat level. Dominance is inherently adversarial and needs to be constantly maintained to avoid revenge. Dominance also requires strength and power, or at least that others perceive you that way. This means that having 'honor' or 'face', meaning being held in high esteem by others, is an absolute necessity for those in positions of dominance. Thus the internal perception that one is any way imperfect is much more threatening and painful. Also, since dominance involves competition with others, psychic gain is greater if one not only denies having faults, but also attributes them to ones adversaries. Hence projection. However, the democrats should realize that projection is politically often a good tactic. If you make the accusation first, the other side looks a bit lame if it says the same thing about you. The greatest example of this is the republicans complaining that democrats are conducting 'class warfare'

Tom Hollenbach Commented on Which Side Will Win? (GV2) by Tom Hollenbach

2009-02-13T20:56:49Z

Yes, if you look at one of my responses above it deals with entitlement. Part of my theory is that dominance produces feelings of entitlement that feel 'right' to those experiencing them, and people experiencing 'rightness' always believe their actions are totally legitimate and expect others to that also and to agree. This can, as you say, create some very big distortions on the part of elites about what is acceptable. A good example is when the heads of the auto companies flew in private jets to DC to beg for money. The Republican party today tends to be very vulnerable to this kind of mistake, and it is, as you say, their weakness.

Tom Hollenbach Commented on Which Side Will Win? (GV2) by Tom Hollenbach

2009-02-13T20:51:18Z

I agree. Actually, if the democrats would just really grow a pair they could get rid of the filibuster rule in the Senate with the constitutional option and then do what's necessary. I think we're in enough of an emergency that they should just do it.

Tom Hollenbach Commented on Which Side Will Win? (GV2) by Tom Hollenbach

2009-02-13T20:48:27Z

That's absolutely right. That's why the Soviet Union was able to be competitive with the USA militarily for some time, because as a dictatorship it was able to substitute mass obedience for creativity (BTW, I classify the Soviet Union as preconservative).

A continuing problem for societies throughout history and still today, I believe, is hereditary elites, because they accustom themselves to dominance and then become entitled, and use the power of elite status to pursue whatever they feel entitled to, even if at everyone else's expense.

Tom Hollenbach Commented on Which Side Will Win? (GV2) by Tom Hollenbach

2009-02-13T20:38:13Z

I heartily agree, Spriche. Thanks for commenting.

Tom Hollenbach Commented on Which Side Will Win? (GV2) by Tom Hollenbach

2009-02-13T20:35:41Z

My guess is that the increased conservatism of Israel in the past twenty years or so is driven by in-migration of more conservative-minded Jews from the ex-Soviet Union. Hard to separate that out from other forces. But I think the bottom line for Israelis has always been that they'll leave the Arabs alone if the Arabs leave them alone. Whenever an Arab country reaches that point, peace with Israel ensues (Egypt, Jordan). The most aggreived group is the Palestinians, so the question is whether the Palestinian territories will reach that point, and if so, when. I think we might be close, if Iran can be induced to stop funding pro-war groups. The best we could hope for would be something like we have now in Bosnia or Northrn Ireland, where an ugly and dysfunctional political process replaces outright war, but that would be a huge improvement.

Tom Hollenbach Commented on Which Side Will Win? (GV2) by Tom Hollenbach

2009-02-13T20:23:31Z

My thinking about temperament, which is not well developed, is that much of it is genetic, and the gene pool doesn't change much over time, so temperament would be major cause of individual variation but not of changes in society over time.

With regard to Horney, yes, her three ways of approaching people correspond somewhat to the categories of cooperative, dominant and submissive. I think that many personality disorders in the DSM are actually pathologies of dominance/submission. I would say that narcissistic, histrionic, borderline, and antisocial are pathologies of the dominance side, while dependent and avoidant are pathologies of the submissive side.

Tom Hollenbach Commented on Which Side Will Win? (GV2) by Tom Hollenbach

2009-02-13T20:15:49Z

Thanks, LC, you understand my approach, obviously. I think republicans are more oriented toward dominant/submissive relationships than democrats, as you say, and I think this is especially true for the economic elites in the republican party. Peopple who are predisposed to think in terms of dominance/submission often interpret offers to cooperate as signs of potential weakness, and fail to reciprocate because of this. Also, part of my theory is that dominance increases feelings of entitlement significantly. Therefore, people who are accustomed to dominance will often take things that are offerred to them without reciprocating because they feel they 'deserve' those things due to their dominance.

Tom Hollenbach Commented on Which Side Will Win? (GV2) by Tom Hollenbach

2009-02-13T18:46:57Z

Thanks, Friz, much appreciated. My answers to Thera are further down.

Tom Hollenbach Commented on Which Side Will Win? (GV2) by Tom Hollenbach

2009-02-13T18:44:59Z

My thoughts are that depressions make economic policy more liberal in the short run because more people identify themselves as disadvantaged and therefore favor policies that help those in need. I think they also, however, make social and political policies more conservative later on, when the generation that grew up during the depression matures. Thus the Great Depression of the 1930s caused liberalism at the time but also led to the social conservatism of the 1950s. Another depression, if it lasted long enough, would have similar effects.

Tom Hollenbach Commented on Which Side Will Win? (GV2) by Tom Hollenbach

2009-02-13T18:40:03Z

Excellent points, O. The short answers to your questions are yes, yes, and yes. I think what you're talking about is already starting to happen. Obama's recent responses to the Republicans have been much more adversarial, which is exectly the right and necessary thing to do when an attempt to cooperate is not reciprocated. He's been critical of Republican policies and ideology, he's gone on the road to remind them that he's willing to campaign against anytime, and I loved the way he trashed Judd Gregg after he withdrew. My take on the difference between Republican and Democrats in terms of my categories is that republican would prefer to dominate, while Democrats would prefer to cooperate. What you want to avoid in a Democratic president is a 'compulsive cooperator', like Jimmy Carter appeared to be. I don't think Obama is that type, I actuallt think that his approach is that if you don't accept the olive brach, the next thing I give you is a two-by-four to the head. Good for him. I don't think Obama has a good interior appreciation of the psychology of dominance and entitlement because he doesn't experience it himself, but he has clearly learned to deal with it effectively through trial-and-error. That should be good enough.

Tom Hollenbach Commented on Which Side Will Win? (GV2) by Tom Hollenbach

2009-02-13T18:27:04Z

Thanks for continuing to read, Thera, I value your questions and input. Part of my resonse to your points in in my answer to CVille Dem above. As therapists we see many people who are 'cycle-breakers' in that they break an intergenerational cycle of abuse and work consciously not to carry parenting practices that they were subject to into their own parenting. At the same time, we also know as therapists that there are many who perpetuate these cycles, who pass on extreme dominance and abuse to the next generation. What makes some people become cycle-breakers and not others is complex on an individual level, as we know from our cases. What my theory contends is that better economic and social conditions during early life somehow makes cycle-breaking more likely.

As for the Middle East, well that's pretty complicated, and I don't have the detailed knowledge about all the societies there that would allow me to say anything with a lot of confidence. But I have thought about it. These societies have had large preconservative components historically, as you would infer from the existence of practices such as 'honor killing' of women who wish to control their own sexuality. But I also think that there is evidence that several societies there are transitioning from preconservative to conservative. This is progress, even if it still looks bad to us.

The non-oil societies such as Egypt, Jordan, Morocco, and Tunisia all seem to be advancing and progressing. In fact, I take a contrarian view about rospects there now, as I now feel optimistic about Middle East peace for the first time in my life. My take on the Arab-Israeli conflict is that most of the Arab states are sick of it. Egypt, Lebabon, and Jordan decided some time ago that they didn't want to keep fighting, and now the West Bank is going the same way. The only groups that are still actively making war are Hamas and Hezbollah. Both are mainly fighting because Iran is paying them to do so. Iran can subsidize them because they are both small and oil prices have been high, and the popularity of both dpends a great deal on their provision of social services, which is only possible with Iranian money. When Israel attacked Hamas recently the other Arab nations in the area didn't feel any pressure to respond militarily, and demonstrations there didn't threaten any of the regimes. In fact Fatah on the West Bank wanted Hamas wiped out. Syria is still a problem, but if Iran can be induced to stop funding Hamas and Hezbollah, which is possible with low oil prices, then I think the region overall would accept peace, due to social and economic progress in the Arab nations over the past decades.

Tom Hollenbach Commented on Which Side Will Win? (GV2) by Tom Hollenbach

2009-02-13T17:59:25Z

Thanks for your questions, CVD. I see two distinct forces operating to influence the value systems of societies, one for change and the other for continuity. The force for change is the economic and social conditions that people experience during their early years, as described above. The force for continuity is the strong attempts made by parents and others to inculcate their values in theyoung. People are affected by these forces to different degrees, and different people will find their interests best served by making different decisions about which way to go. Variables like intelligence, birth order, and the like will also play a role in each individual's decisions about values. The force for continuity is strong, and i believe it only gives way gradually over time.

Tom Hollenbach Commented on Which Side Will Win? (GV2) by Tom Hollenbach

2009-02-13T05:12:40Z

What I'm suggesting is that 'nature' has wired us to respond differently to different kinds of 'nurture'. Humans are social animals that live in groups and coordinate thier activities to enhance their survival, so the 'social environment' of other human beings is, therefore something very important for humans to be adapted to. Genes that help humans survive while dealing with other humans will be preserved.

I just think that all the other organs of the body are adapted quite precisly to survival, why not the brain? And if the brain is adapted, then the mind will be too.

Tom Hollenbach Commented on Garbage, Compost, Waste Removal - Recycling Here! by Aunt Sam

2009-02-13T04:24:53Z

I think Frizzletoad showed how it should be done in his most recent post. Admirable and effective. He was so unprovocable he sent the troll running.

Tom Hollenbach Commented on Which Side Will Win? (GV2) by Tom Hollenbach

2009-02-13T04:16:21Z

Not exactly. Instincts would be a much wider set of built-in reactions. Actually, 'instincts' is a word that doesn't really have a precise scientific definition that I know of, but generally means things that are genetically programmed that arem't easily altered. What I'm suggesting is built-in programs that exist as potentials, and that are activated by experience. Without those experiences, they never get activated.

Tom Hollenbach Commented on Affirming My Membership In The President Obama Marching Band & Chowder Society by spearshaker

2009-02-13T04:04:38Z

Nice post. Rec'd. I agree, he's a refreshing change after Bush. The stimulus bill wasn't perfect by a long shot, but it was obviously a rush job in an emergency situation. I don't think it's big enough, but more legislation is always possible later.

Tom Hollenbach Commented on Which Side Will Win? (GV2) by Tom Hollenbach

2009-02-13T03:58:46Z

Thanks for commenting, Auntie. I'd love to have my own site, and have thought of it, but I'm not so internet-savvy yet and am trying to juggle time between family, clients, writing, and so on. I'll keep checking these posts after they go off the Rec list, so if you or others want to continue discussing this I'll be available for that. Thanks for your support.

Tom Hollenbach Commented on Which Side Will Win? (GV2) by Tom Hollenbach

2009-02-13T03:55:04Z

Great insight, DD. You're right, shame has diminished in recent decades, which has both good and bad effects. People are less ashamed of sex, which is healthier, but also less ashamed of greed, which I believe is not. Shame is a big part of preconservative and conservative societies, and diminishes with liberalism. Thanks for previewing one of my upcoming posts.

Tom Hollenbach Commented on Which Side Will Win? (GV2) by Tom Hollenbach

2009-02-13T03:51:42Z

Thanks for commenting, Wordie. I'm afaid I don't see an alternative to increased tendencies toward authoritarianism due to scarcity. But it depends on degree. Real scarcity is having to worry about starving to death, which tells you why premodern societies were almost always authoritarian, because they experienced scarcity at that level. The authoritarian tendencies in America due to the Great Depression were of course milder than that, the McCarthyism of the 1950s when the Depression generation matured. I don't think it'll be that bad this time.

Tom Hollenbach recommended Which Side Will Win? (GV2) by Tom Hollenbach

2009-02-13T00:02:03Z

Tom Hollenbach Commented on We Need to Fix The Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) BEFORE We Develop a National Electronic Medical Records Database UPDATED! by Wordie

2009-02-13T00:20:29Z

Absolutely right. I'm a psychologist, and I'm very concerned about this. People may not know this, but therapists are required to write a narrative account (called a session note or progress note) that details what went on in the session, and these notes are part of the patient's chart, and can be examined by regulators, auditing agencies, health insurers, and other professionals collaborating in treatment. These notes should NOT be part of an electronic record that all health providers and insurers can access. In fact, my feeling is that session notes should be private property of the therapist, and instead of a narrative, a checkbox form or something less personal should go into the formal chart.