Breaking: Bybee Breaks His Silence on Torture Memos
The New York Times has the latest:
Judge [Jay] Bybee, who issued the memorandums as the head of the Office of Legal Counsel and was later nominated to the federal appeals court by President George W. Bush, said in a statement in response to questions from The New York Times that he continued to believe that the memorandums represented "a good-faith analysis of the law" that properly defined the thin line between harsh treatment and torture.
Note that I (and hundreds of others here) use the word "torture" in the title. The NYT does not. Scary T-word, I guess, but that's par for the course for most in the Beltway.
But that aside, the real story here is Bybee.
Bybee said he was issuing a statement following reports that he had regrets over his role in the memorandums, including an article in The Washington Post on Saturday to that effect. Given the widespread criticism of the memorandums, he said he would have done some things differently, like clarifying and sharpening the analysis of some of his answers to help the public better understand the basis for his conclusions.
You know what that bolded sentence sounds like? It sounds exactly what you'd expect from a slacker student in law school who's making excuse after excuse to his professor about why he didn't do the proper research for a case. "I should have explained this better." "I wasn't clear enough." Shades of Alberto Gonzales repeatedly saying "I don't recall [insert bullshit assertion here]," indeed.
Alberto Gonzales -- "I don't recall...."
Actually, I take that back. Bybee's analysis of the torture memos was pretty clear. Here's a sample of what is written in that memo:
"[F]or an act to constitute torture, it must inflict pain that is difficult to endure. Physical pain amounting to torture must be equivalent in intensity to the pain accompanying serious physical injury, such as organ failure, impairment of bodily function, or even death."
"For purely mental pain or suffering to amount to torture, it must result in significant psychological harm of significant duration, e.g., lasting for months or even years."
"[E]ven if the defendant knows that severe pain will result from his actions, if causing such harm is not his objective, he lacks the requisite specific intent even though the defendant did not act in good faith. Instead, a defendant is guilty of torture only if he acts with the express purpose of inflicting severe pain or suffering on a person within his custody or physical control.
"[U]nder the current circumstances, necessity or self-defense may justify interrogation methods that might violate Sections 2340A."
Clarifying and sharpening the analysis? The analysis seems pretty crystal clear to me. It's not torture because the "intentions are good." It's not torture because the intent isn't "pain or suffering," even though extreme pain and suffering was exactly what they got from waterboarding prisoners (without the desired results of stopping a terrorist attack, the very reason they defend torture in the first place).
Here's what you should have done, Mr. Bybee: YOU NEVER SHOULD HAVE JUSTIFIED TORTURE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
But wait! There's more.
Other administration lawyers agreed with [Bybee's] conclusions, Judge Bybee said.
But he said: "The central question for lawyers was a narrow one; locate, under the statutory definition, the thin line between harsh treatment of a high-ranking Al Qaeda terrorist that is not torture and harsh treatment that is. I believed at the time, and continue to believe today, that the conclusions were legally correct."
You certainly do, Mr. Bybee. You believe it because the Bush Administration wanted you and many others in the Justice Department to justify something that is explicitly outlawed both by our Constitution and the Geneva Conventions.
Article 3 of the Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War
To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
(a) Violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture;
(b) Taking of hostages;
(c) Outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;
(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.
Oh, that pesky little detail, the rule of law. Too bad an esteemed lawyer and judge such as yourself couldn't, uh, FOLLOW it.
Another juicy bit:
"The legal question was and is difficult," [Bybee] said. "And the stakes for the country were significant no matter what our opinion. In that context, we gave our best, honest advice, based on our good-faith analysis of the law."
Ah yes, our old friend the ticking time bomb theory. The stakes were so high, we just HAD to torture those prisoners. That scenario exists only in 24 and the heads of Bush apologists, and it still doesn't justify immoral torture techniques which have proven ineffective at getting reliable information anyway.
Yet, something (among many things) doesn't compute here. We have to torture these prisoners because our national security is at stake....yet that didn't preclude Bybee from signing a legally unfounded and reprehensible memo that Bybee himself tries to excuse as needing further "clarifying and sharpening" of the analysis.
My head is spinning. Here's one last little gem from the NYT story:
In a reunion of law clerks last May at a Las Vegas restaurant, first reported by The Recorder, a California legal newspaper, Judge Bybee also spoke about his work at the Office of Legal Counsel, first saying he was proud of the work he had done as a judge and the help given him by his clerks. He then said, according to several witnesses, "I wish I could say that of the prior job I had."
Oh, that poor, POOR man! He's not proud of his work in the DOJ. What a sad, sad story!
Cry me a fucking river, Bybee. You weren't the one being tortured, so don't give me any of that baloney over how not proud you are over what you did. Where were you seven years ago speaking out about how not proud you were of your job? Where were you seven years ago saying that the legal justification for torture was trash, and that the techniques should never have been authorized?
But you're in luck, Bybee. I'm not proud of you either. Neither are the millions of other Americans who want you thrown out of a job and put in jail for war crimes.
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Cross-posted at Daily Kos
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UPDATE: Think Progress reports that the DOJ is currently conducting a review of Mr. Bybee.
The New York Times's Charlie Savage recently reported that the review could find that Bybee's office changed its legal views to cater to policy makers.
The Justice Department's Office of Professional Responsibility has been investigating the work of lawyers who signed off on the interrogation policy, and is believed to have obtained archived e-mail messages from the time when the memorandums were being drafted.
If it turned out that the lawyers initially concluded that aspects of the proposed program would be illegal, then reversed that conclusion at the request of policy makers, then prosecutors could make a case that the officials knowingly broke the law.
















Well done, SuperBowl! Including the outrage and the well-justified profanity.
Every time I read about how they made such a big deal of the "intention" of the torturer, I imagine them fasting and praying prior to each session to "purify" their intentions - NOT!
At the very least he should resign his judgeship to spend more time with his family. He may need that time! As it's always possible he might be deprived of it down the road.
April 29, 2009 12:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
From the article - proof that the "court of public opinion is working:
April 29, 2009 1:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Old friend to Bybee:
April 29, 2009 1:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
Here's a judge:
April 29, 2009 1:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
“He has too much respect for authority and will avoid a confrontation no matter what,”
about Bybee...
I would think this might mean something to you, TheraP.
April 29, 2009 4:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
I just posted a comment at emptywheel to that effect. And my bottom line was:
April 29, 2009 10:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
Doesn't this come back to the delusion some had, and for which we will never really have an answer, that they, as Bush's Monica reported, swore their allegiance to the President and not the Consitution.
April 29, 2009 2:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'd never heard this before. That's truly scary. Who administered the oath?
April 29, 2009 3:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
There were "loyalty oaths" of various sorts required at even some Bush public appearances.
April 29, 2009 3:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Geez Gregor. I have never forgotten that. That scene with the blond from Jesus Law School telling Congress she took an oath to the President of the United States. WOW
April 29, 2009 6:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Milgram's book: Obedience to Authority.
Scary that they seem to have picked even professionals, who demonstrated that quality!
April 29, 2009 10:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
I thought you might have something to say about the psychology there.
To me it's problematic, that is, judgment depends on just which authority one respects and how one avoids confrontation. The quote makes him seem like he'd try to please his employer (Bush vs. America) by avoiding the possibility of butting heads. He'd skimp on principle and go heavy on "make nice" if it looked like push would come to shove. That could result in the kind of opinion some on the left seem to see in the words of some of these memos (even if they have a hard time making a sound case on the details).
But if he instead respects the Constitution and the rule of law as authority, then it's a very different ball game. He might rightly hold that the President does have Constitutional authority for actions other people might not agree about.
April 29, 2009 1:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
Strange, then, that so many lawyers and judges read his views as so far off base!
You seem to want to defend those views...
April 29, 2009 3:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Not strange at all, but there are biases on both sides of the issue, so you ought to take those other opinions with a lot of salt if you take them at all seriously. We could discuss specifics if you can link to them.
I "seem" to? Sticking up for the truth can "seem" to be what it is not, but that perception is generally in the eye of the beholder, not in the conduct, desire, or intent of mine here. Standing up for due process in front of a lynch mob might be foolish, but it doesn't amount to a defense of the accused, rather it amounts to a defense of reason and law in the case of the accused.
All I know of Bybee's "views" amounts to having read a couple of his memos. You are apparently reading metaphysical views into the factual documents. If you can fault specific things he says, correctly and in context, please do so. Otherwise you are generalizing from what he said to what you believe he must have meant. Surely you of all people know the difference there.
My views on the subject are contained in 2-3 blog posts of mine, if you want to discuss my views on the Torture Debate or on torture itself. See updated http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/eds/2009/04/the-sereing-truth-on-torture.php and the one listed before it re 'devil in the details'. I'd be happy to discuss this in either thread. Let me know here if you post in the thread with 75 comments since it might be hard to notice a new comment at this point.
April 29, 2009 3:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't need to argue this. You go ahead!
April 29, 2009 3:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Argument is not discussion, but I will accept that you're dropping it.
April 29, 2009 4:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Excuse me, but I DID point to specific things in the Bybee torture memo, signed by Bybee, that Bybee himself continues to defend today. There's nothing "metaphysical" about it. He actually believes that the techniques authorized in his John Yoo's memos were not torture. The Geneva Conventions and the Constitution say very much otherwise.
April 29, 2009 4:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Amen! I think my quote above made a similar point.
April 29, 2009 6:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, did I miss your comment to that effect?
"Excuse me, but I DID point to specific things in the Bybee torture memo, signed by Bybee, that Bybee himself continues to defend today. There's nothing "metaphysical" about it. He actually believes that the techniques authorized in his John Yoo's memos were not torture. The Geneva Conventions and the Constitution say very much otherwise."
You confuse Bybee with Yoo, for starters "in his John Yoo's memos" or that's a typo.
You have not cited any specifics so you're still blowing smoke, and probably just buying the Party Line. I'm primarily considering the Rizzo memo from Bybee.
But projecting your own beliefs into a memo is not factual, it's either delusion or metaphysical assumption.
April 30, 2009 3:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Let me clarify my previous comment. What your blog post cites is not damning as I read it. It's an argument (the part you take issue with) that the law looks at the intent of the defendant. You try to ridicule this but fail. Intent is at issue.
I agree that it's pretty thin. But your objections are just not compelling. Have you read the Rizzo memo?
April 30, 2009 3:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
We're not talking about a traffic judge collecting fines from a speed trap. We're talking about giving the "go-ahead" cover to institute torture of often innocent people (to death in many cases, it turns out). Weasel words that try to justify illegal acts after the fact are not convincing just because they're ambiguous and twist definitions (like "intent") into pretzels. If legal scholars, fellow jurists and even Bybee’s “friends” (hardly raving leftists, I’d think) believe his opinions are crap, I wouldn’t step in them on a hot day.
As to Bybee bowing to the authority of Bush; the OLC serves the President, administration and DoJ by providing legal opinions to advise and clarify a situation. If these opinions are obviously unfounded, how is it serving the President or DoJ? The authority over the OLC is the law. If the judge purposely issued false legal claims intended as a pretext to be exploited he is abetting criminal activity (regardless of his fear, awe or submission to "authority"), and he is guilty too.
April 29, 2009 10:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Somehow that statement kind of seems, to a certain extent, to be excusing the Bybee opinions somewhat by someone a little right of center on this issue to a degree."
I know you're smarter than that, and if it was sarcasm I believe you can do better.
April 30, 2009 3:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
I’m not very smart, I know, but I’ve always been told I was special. I do get confused and I’ve missed some of my meds lately, but I’ll do better (it’s blue pills for sarcasm, yellow for blind obedience, right?).
Look, I don’t think that was an unfair assessment of your reply. I see what you’re getting at, and from what his former friend, Professor Blakesly says, Bybee may be a generally good guy who lapsed into an apologist out of fear of Bush (not unheard of, as we often treat presidents like Kings). So what? Why bring it up unless as a defense of Bybee? Why is it "problematic"?
He obviously has a competent legal mind according to those who knew him before and after his stint with the OLC. But that is more incriminating, not less. As a competent legal scholar, he’d know his arguments were stretching the law and he’d know what he was advising was prohibited under the CAT. Is he as culpable as Woo? Not by a long shot. But none of this excuses his actions.
April 30, 2009 3:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't see "stretching the law".
I see "examining gray areas of the law" and offering limited opinions on specific aspects, in Rizzo.
I do think the Gonzalez memo is more iffy but it too is qualified/limited and hardly determinative. It looks at whether a President has what some would call "extra-legal authority", but it does not stretch the law, it at most stretches thinking about the law.
April 30, 2009 3:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, I'm not a lawyer, obviously, but I can't see how that can stand when the CAT, the "supreme law of the land," expressly prohibits claims of "extra-legal authority" like that for the purpose of maltreating detainees. But maybe you see technicalities of law that I don't. Over and out.
April 30, 2009 6:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
"I can't see how that can stand when the CAT, the "supreme law of the land," expressly prohibits claims of "extra-legal authority" like that for the purpose of maltreating detainees."
Unless you cite specifics...
I'm mostly talking about Rizzo, not Gonzalez. But in general, if CAT is a convention among nations, then dealing with non-national international criminals and terrorists, it might not fully apply. We'd have to look at the exact intent and wording of the parties.
There is a legit question as to whether anyone at all has "extra-legal" authority beyond their own free will. But extra-legal is not illegal.
April 30, 2009 10:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
I’m not very smart, I know, but I’ve always been told I was special. I do get confused and I’ve missed some of my meds lately, but I’ll do better (it’s blue pills for sarcasm, yellow for blind obedience, right?).
Look, I don’t think that was an unfair assessment of your reply. I see what you’re getting at, and from what his former friend, Professor Blakesly says, Bybee may be a generally good guy who lapsed into an apologist out of fear of Bush (not unheard of, as we often treat presidents like Kings). So what? Why bring it up unless as a defense of Bybee? Why is it "problematic"?
He obviously has a competent legal mind according to those who knew him before and after his stint with the OLC. But that is more incriminating, not less. As a competent legal scholar, he’d know his arguments were stretching the law and he’d know what he was advising was prohibited under the CAT. Is he as culpable as Woo? Not by a long shot. But none of this excuses his actions.
April 30, 2009 3:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
damnable infernal computers...
April 30, 2009 3:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks, TheraP. This blog post made the Rec List on Daily Kos -- which broke my Rec List virginity on that website!
Glad I could share it with TPM. And thanks very much for all of your great work on speaking up about investigations and speaking out against torture.
April 29, 2009 1:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, congrats on making the Kos rec list! That is huge!
And thanks for your kind words. (We're all doing our part.)
April 29, 2009 1:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
I just do not recall,
thats all
after the fall
i got the call
Great stuff Super. Just great stuff. wow.
I rec you all the time anyway. hahahahahaha
I am happy for your win.
But this is a super post. You can really tell when its super because TheraP shows up with a lot of comments and additions.
April 29, 2009 2:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks, DD.
Bybee really is pathetic. I can't wait to read what Glenn Greenwald has to say about it.
April 29, 2009 2:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
Second, third and fourth the kudos and the congrats, BB.
April 29, 2009 3:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well done.
Just over the past day or two I have begun the task of absorbing the nuances of torture, the tortured, and especially, the torturers. I know it's been in the headlines for a long while but sometimes it takes me some preparation to allow myself to learn.
Your post was exquisitely clear, appreciated by me, and very deserving of a spot on the Rec List of Daily Kos.
April 29, 2009 8:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
So, if Bybee stands behind his work ... he's in FAVOR of the special prosecutor, right?
April 29, 2009 10:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
Very good.... ;)
April 29, 2009 6:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fantastic work SuperBowl!!!
April 29, 2009 10:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you! I am so sickened by these people and what they have done. I am equally disgusted by the media. I am not holding my breath on any of these people doing the right thing, including our limp knee Democrats. I fear that this will be CYA time on a massive scale. I hope I am proved wrong.
April 29, 2009 11:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Neither are the millions of other Americans who want you thrown out of a job and put in jail for war crimes"
Where's the petition?
April 29, 2009 12:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here:
http://capwiz.com/pdamerica/issues/alert/?alertid=12935991&PROCESS=Take+Action
April 29, 2009 12:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Excellent report. You hit the KOS rec, and you'll get the top here before the day is through. If I could recomment it twice, I would.
April 29, 2009 2:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks Gregor. Actually, dirty little secret: It IS possible to rec a TPM blog post twice. You can hit the rec button while you're logged in as a TPM user....but when you log out, if you hit the rec button a second time, it shows up as a new rec!
I know. It's cheating a little. But it's something I discovered a long while ago.
April 29, 2009 4:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
I once got logged out and had trouble getting back in. I'm always logged in!
April 29, 2009 6:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
How do you stay logged in? Every time I go to a new screen in TPM I have to log in again if I want to comment.
April 29, 2009 7:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
I just click "sign in" whenever it comes up like this. And it does it for me automatically. So I haven't signed out - it's just that the system has to make me log in automatically. Sorry about that.
But I never deliberately sign out.
April 29, 2009 11:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bybee is a political hack who was rewarded with a lifelong judgeship for his hackery above and beyond normal right wingnut hackery. It should go without saying that anyone so closely aligned politically with Bush is lying on all of this.
"Prove it" of course, is the response. To that I must point out that the Republicans have used the "prove it" argument now for near 30 years. In the end, it always becomes clear to the doubters that those of us who know they are lying are right, but they have to see a chemical analysis of the chocolate found on the faces of the cookie thieves to make sure it's the same chocolate as that used in the missing cookies before they will be willing to punish them.
I am always struck by how those in the media and many in the political realm have respect for that line of argument which is most commonly used by mobsters who everyone knows it guilty and who everyone knows will then proceed to play a legal cat and mouse game vs prosecutors in order to stay free. The Republicans even use their own form of Omerta in order to protect the illegal activities of their "family" members.
Both crowds are crooks and everyone knows that. There's really no difference between the Republican thugs and the mafia.
April 29, 2009 2:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's the line from today's Times article that I love:
Pay attention to the nuance. Bybee doesn't claim that his colleagues -- other Department of Justice lawyers -- agreed with him. He claims only that other "administration" lawyers agreed with him. Now who could that be?
(Hint: David Addington and Alberto Gonzales were administration lawyers, but not DOJ lawyers.)
April 29, 2009 6:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
You might be reading too much into the "other administration lawyers agreed" comment.
Still it does smack of "lurkers support me in emails."
If there are other lawyers who agree with what Bybee wrote, why don't they say so publicly? The memos are now public knowledge, and Supreme Court opinions and other legal sources are not classified, so if there are well-placed lawyers out there who agree with Bybee, why don't they say so?
The problem with the Bybee, Yoo, and other memos is not political, but legal, because the memos represent very poor legal reasoning and a very distorted view of the law and legal precedent. The only lawyers I have seen try to defend the memos are lawyers who are willing to overlook the glaring flaws for what appear to be political reasons, just as Bybee seems to have been willing to overlook the flaws in his own memos for political reasons.
I look forward to the report of the DOJ Office of Professional Responsibility, because I think that it will convincingly establish that Bybee, Yoo, et al. failed in their professional duty to provide competent legal advice, and failed due to political pressures.
April 29, 2009 10:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Great post, Superbowl. Thank you.
April 29, 2009 7:30 PM | Reply | Permalink