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Whose Cafe Is It, Anyway?
Tensions are running high at TPM this weekend. There is a lot of conversation about what the Cafe is and who should be here and who shouldn't. Whether there is more value to some posts and posters than others...
I find it all a bit sad.
My understanding is that Josh intends for it to be a cyber "coffee house" where people mingle and discuss...We don't have to believe anything in particular, we can be wingnuts on either end of the spectrum or somewhere in between. We can be intellectuals or hillbillies, atheists, Christians, Buddhists, gays, straights, blacks or whites, dressed in pajamas or suits and ties...it just doesn't matter. We can discuss anything we want, it doesn't have to be all about the headlines of the day. I mean, after all, as important as it is, health care 24/7 can be a bit draining. All he asks is that we be relatively respectful.
Some people here are good at taking personal confessions and turning them into relevant discussions on the state of the country. Some want no more than to put their poetry out there for others to critique. Some are howlingly funny and can have you squirting coffee out your nose and onto the keyboard over the most ridiculous subject matter. Others are great, serious researchers and teachers. Still others just want to lob grenades and watch to see what kind of collateral damage they can do. Some seemingly have little purpose other than to take up space. I suppose it can be a little clickish at times, but, some of us just really LIKE each other. Anyway, it's a big Cafe, and there is room for all. No one "group" owns the place.
I've only been here a little over a year, so I don't know what it used to be like. Maybe y'all used to never talk about anything but politics and the REALLY important stuff. I know a number of people who were here when I first showed up have left to start their own blogs, others just disappeared. Some of them I miss and I visit them on their own sites from time to time. I thought others were just grouchy intellectuals that couldn't be bothered by the stupidity of the masses and although I miss their perspectives on occasion, I don't miss them. There are lots of new people, and many of them have made tremendous contributions.
The TPM Cafe is a constantly changing place, as would be a cafe in the real world. People move, tastes change...for whatever reasons, the patron's faces change over time. If you don't like what it has become, open your own, or move onto one that suits your needs. We are all here by choice. The trick is to join in where you want and ignore the rest.
I like the diversity of TPM ; the diversity of thought, of style, of subject matter. I lived in white, Christian, republican seclusion for far too long. Being here has opened up a whole new world to me. My being here may have diluted the intellectual purity of the site for some, but it caused me to grow in ways I never would have without it. And for that I'm grateful.
Thank you, Josh, for not making me take a test before accepting me here.
I find it all a bit sad.
My understanding is that Josh intends for it to be a cyber "coffee house" where people mingle and discuss...We don't have to believe anything in particular, we can be wingnuts on either end of the spectrum or somewhere in between. We can be intellectuals or hillbillies, atheists, Christians, Buddhists, gays, straights, blacks or whites, dressed in pajamas or suits and ties...it just doesn't matter. We can discuss anything we want, it doesn't have to be all about the headlines of the day. I mean, after all, as important as it is, health care 24/7 can be a bit draining. All he asks is that we be relatively respectful.
Some people here are good at taking personal confessions and turning them into relevant discussions on the state of the country. Some want no more than to put their poetry out there for others to critique. Some are howlingly funny and can have you squirting coffee out your nose and onto the keyboard over the most ridiculous subject matter. Others are great, serious researchers and teachers. Still others just want to lob grenades and watch to see what kind of collateral damage they can do. Some seemingly have little purpose other than to take up space. I suppose it can be a little clickish at times, but, some of us just really LIKE each other. Anyway, it's a big Cafe, and there is room for all. No one "group" owns the place.
I've only been here a little over a year, so I don't know what it used to be like. Maybe y'all used to never talk about anything but politics and the REALLY important stuff. I know a number of people who were here when I first showed up have left to start their own blogs, others just disappeared. Some of them I miss and I visit them on their own sites from time to time. I thought others were just grouchy intellectuals that couldn't be bothered by the stupidity of the masses and although I miss their perspectives on occasion, I don't miss them. There are lots of new people, and many of them have made tremendous contributions.
The TPM Cafe is a constantly changing place, as would be a cafe in the real world. People move, tastes change...for whatever reasons, the patron's faces change over time. If you don't like what it has become, open your own, or move onto one that suits your needs. We are all here by choice. The trick is to join in where you want and ignore the rest.
I like the diversity of TPM ; the diversity of thought, of style, of subject matter. I lived in white, Christian, republican seclusion for far too long. Being here has opened up a whole new world to me. My being here may have diluted the intellectual purity of the site for some, but it caused me to grow in ways I never would have without it. And for that I'm grateful.
Thank you, Josh, for not making me take a test before accepting me here.
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Stilli,
I've only read comments from two who carp about this and they aren't known here to be glass half full people.
Some of the angst, myself included, is the gaming of the rec system. As I commented elsewhere, it's the lack of respect for the site's participants (whether bloggers, commenters or read only) and for the intent of TPM. Of course, this is third weekend in row (four?) that this has transpired. And no update from TPM on process or achievement of resolution.
However, I equally enjoy being educated (politically or other), entertained and touched by heartfelt personal stories, tales of experience, et al.
To me, it's relatively simple...
For those who don't enjoy the experience and environment here, they simply do not have to visit. It's a choice we all make.
None of us are one dimensional beings - nor would I value or want to revisit a one dimensional site.
Glad you posted this Still, appreciate.
And I do Rec'd!
August 30, 2009 5:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
I got that, Sammy...it just irks me when some get up on their high horses. Reminded me of some of those I don't miss...
You are right about the weekends being squirrely...problem is, that's the only time when I can participate in my posts. Maybe the gamers will get bored.
August 30, 2009 5:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lovely, Stilli. I don't understand why some here choose to wound with their words. It isn't really all that funny, is it. It seems rather low class, to me.
I think, you have it just right, and at the risk of being classified as yet another commenter just taking up space...
Good Job.
August 30, 2009 5:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks, chicken. I can see where people who want nothing but nuts and bolts are coming from, but I prefer the variety.
Seems like this is the law of supply and demand at work. The stuff people want to read is getting rec'd. The stuff they don't, isn't.
I like the idea of adding a classification for just the hard-hitting stuff. It could be a "by approval" category...You submit your work, if staff deems it worthy, it goes up, if not they can re-post into the cafe, if they choose. If that is what people really want to read, it will be a smashing success.
August 30, 2009 9:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Stilli, you've taken the words out of my mouth. Josh has succeeded, in my view. Tpmcafe has all the attributes of the hundreds, if not thousands, of cafes, coffee houses and bars I've enjoyed frequenting in my life. I the tpmcafe isn't what he intended, we are all fortunate for his mistake.
August 30, 2009 5:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Some folks seem to have gotten lost on the way to a social networking site, but why should I care.
I do get irritated with those who believe they are in an ivory tower. It's a blog, Professor. It's the Internet. It doesn't require a graduate exam or $100K in tuition. The great unwashed are here.
We also have some who are cheerleaders and write in talking points. I don't really think that's what Josh had in mind.
We should be civil. I'm not. I'm here because I got angry and I'm still angry about being lied to over Iraq which lead me to the revelation that I'm probably being lied to about more than Iraq. Mainly I'm still angry because plenty of the liars were and are Democrats. So if this site is meant to cheerlead for Democrats, I shouldn't be here. But then I don't think of a coffee house cafe as being exclusively a party club. I think it ought to be a place for people to get way out there and think outside the box. (Mystery: why are so many of the academics so firmly ensconced inside conventional boxes?)
August 30, 2009 6:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hear, hear!
August 30, 2009 8:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Still (and Dan K) --
There are times when the cafe becomes personal -- sometimes excruciatingly personal. I have contributed to that, although, more often than not, the result when I do it is that I feel self-exposed and occasionally humiliated.
That said -- post Bush/Cheney -- isn't it actually grand that people at the cafe can say what is in their hearts as well as in their minds?
Isn't that what Ted Kennedy did, for decades?
Was he divorced from policy? NO. He had the gift of integrating mind and heart.
Why, Dan K, do you demand compartmentalization???? Isn't integration what the world is all about?
Just asking.
August 30, 2009 11:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'll have you know I at least wash my hands before coming here. Sometimes I even shower first.
And there are times I happen to be dressed scantilly, though I don't advertise it.
August 31, 2009 12:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
Bluebell, i think I've been here (although less active on this blog for the last year when mindless Obama adulation seemed all the rage). For my information could you spell out a little what academics you are referring to? I hadn't noticed so much of this.
August 31, 2009 9:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't have any names I'd throw out. It's an attitude that comes from some and it's not unique to this site (none of the complaints are unique to this site.) Some want you to know they have a PhD (and some who want you to know that might not even have one). If they are writing a blog as an invited expert then the credentialism is swell but we can't all disclose our CVs or our employer so trying to get extra credit for your degrees is tacky.
I also resent those who like to critique posters' writing skills and nitpick on spelling. If you could get paid for what you are writing, you probably wouldn't be posting it here for free.
One of my beefs with the state of the world anyway is that we're getting way too little input from people outside the beltways and the ivory towers and that business, government and the media has become so insular and made up of people who all think alike that it's almost impossible to wedge a new idea in anywhere.
August 31, 2009 6:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
So are the great washed, Bluebell, and if the lack of a Ph D. doesn't disqualify one from being here, neither should the presence of one. This isn't about degree, to my mind, it is about what constitutes civil discourse.
I don't hang around a coffeehouse where the patrons descend to calling each other whiney old farts. Maybe you do. Maybe they're fun, for all I know, but they're not me. The propoer response to someone who complains about personal stories on a political blog is to point out that there are no personal stories which are not also political stories...thea the great reformers of all time were storytellers and spoke in parables.
What josh has created is a business plan based on traffic generated by whatever means possible. I don't know what number comment this will be by the time I finish writing it...on of the marks of us academic types is we take alittle time to make sure we say what we mean to say, but right now it is number 64.
But in another sense it doesn't make one bit of difference as far as the business plan goes. The only comments or posts which don't create revenue are the ones which get little or now resp[onse. As I write here, I'm learning that Bristol moms know acai has side effects---whee. I know this because one of the ad marketers gets my isp address from TPM so it can personalize the add--I'm also learning that Bristol Residents make $634 part time... maybe you all ought to move to Bristol.
When I hit the submit button I'm goinng to be taken to a page which will inform me that yes, my comment has been submitted. And it will also sho me more ads. I will be asked to return to the main entry, and again I will be shown more ads. And guess what, if I proofread this by hitting preview, I'll see more ads.
I did, and now I can learn about a free trial of netflix, and if I hurry I can watch it on my Ashley furniture, $100 bucks off.
So the simple process of creating one comment generates ad revenue
1. from reading the headline
2. from clicking through to the article
3. from signing in to make a comment
4 from hitting the comment button
5. From previewing the comment
6. From previewing it a second time to catch changes
7. From hitting the submit button
8. From hittin the return to the main menu
So nine revenue generators for every comment. Who gives a hoot from a business point of view?
And of course, in the process those who critique the model get mild slimes from the gentler commentators or abuse pure and simple from those for whom whacking those who disagree with them fills some deep emotional need.
I stopped blogging about three weeks ago. I haven't yet stopped commenting, So if the great unwashed take offense at my degree or how I approach things, I guess they'll cope without too much stress.
August 31, 2009 9:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ok Amike, You've distressed me with that shot about whiney old farts. I've apologized to Dan on the other thread. It wasn't intended as a low blow at all. I'm probably Dan's biggest fan around here, and that phrase was wrapped up in the biggest compliment I thought someone of Dan's rather Victorian temperament would be able to accept without wretching. I apologize to you too if it caused offence.
Yikes...
August 31, 2009 2:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
amike, the rough and tumble of TPMCafe isn't for everyone, but your posts are missed. Sometimes I think you take things written in the heat of controversy too personally. I think we all do that at times. But there is passion and illumination here that comes from the exchange of ideas and opinions. Just because we all have our own opinions doesn't mean there isn't room for informed discussion also. True, too often informed discussion gets overlooked while the rants seem to get undue attention. But so does the letters section of a newspaper. Opinion always gets attention, and that is a valuable thing. Like you, a lot of us also want read more informed discussion. Please reconsider your withdrawal from blogging here. It might restore a little balance to the Force.
August 31, 2009 2:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Amike, on this point you're simply wrong. TPM does have a business plan. But it's not the one you outline. And it actually has nothing to do with TPMCafe. If we were only basing our decisions in terms of return on the dollar, we would shut TPMCafe down entirely. Because judged purely on the terms you're setting forth its a money loser and always has been.
It's a very small amount of the site's overall traffic; it also requires a lot of monitoring. It's not perfect. There are certainly shortcomings. And we're hoping to be able to hire a staffer exclusively assigned to running, which we have not had in the very long time. As someone who has a Phd and who runs a business, let me say that your assumption that you know the business priorities of TPM is simply mistaken. As I said, if everything had to fall before the 'business plan' we wouldn't have TPMCafe at all.
It's here because we want to create a space where readers can discuss issues of the day.
Second, TPM does not give anyone's IP address to any advertiser. Never have. Never will. What you're referring to is advertisers who come in through third-party ad networks and do something called 'geo-targeting' which doesn't peer into your computer and has no effect on individual privacy at all. It's an easy mistake to make. I probably wouldn't know how this stuff works if I didn't have to to understand our business. But you shouldn't just guess and present it as fact. Because there's a very big difference.
Your arguments would have more punch if you did not so easily toss around claims for which you have no evidence and which are in these two cases demonstrably false.
August 31, 2009 2:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
I apologize for the misinformation I put here. I won't do it again. I am curious about how the advertisements track where I live. I'm sure nobody living in Tucson gets told about Bristol Moms losing weight, or about how people in Bristol Rhode Island can make money at home. Where I am has to be collected somehow. The information must be aggregated and made anonymous somehow, perhaps a wonky person can explain how that works. This doesn't just happen here, but just about any commercial place I land on the web.
So apologies for what someone else called a smear. I didn't mean it that way. I jumped to a conclusion which may have been logical based on what I know, but was incorrect based on what I do not know. a little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
September 1, 2009 7:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
In really broad terms, it's pretty straightforward. I live in Chelsea, in Manhattan. I come online at home through Time Warner. The internet works through big trunk lines, sort of like an on-ramp to the Internet. So when I log on to the web I probably come on through a Time Warner trunkline that's Id'd as Lower Manhattan.
The ads you're talking about went through a third-party network. So we didn't have anything directly to do with that.
But for instance, we do sell 'geo-targetted' ads in several areas, particularly Washington, DC. So an advertiser can come to TPM (and pretty much every other site) and by ad space that will appear solely in the DC metro area. Nowhere else.
It's all the same thing. It works by these entry points to the Internet. It doesn't 'look' in any way at your individual computer or anything about you.
September 4, 2009 9:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
bluebell,
your post is gold.
August 31, 2009 10:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think some of the criticisms I've read lately bear examination. It is a worthwhile exercise to critically examine what we read regardless of our familiarity with the writer. It is easy to let that critical thinking slide a bit as one becomes more familiar with a writer, and consequently, perhaps the new writers have to clear a higher hurdle in making their points. On the other hand TPM Cafe is like a real cafe, and I too appreciate the diversity here. Not unlike any community, we have brains, hearts, synthesizers, dissectors, and the occasional village idiot, (I too often get to wear that hat myself). Like any place where people interact, they get to know each other, and that familiarity can lead to what has been called 'cliques' and more often than not a 'dominant clique'. C'est la vie. I would prefer to view it as any other community rife with all the personalities and intellects you would find in a 'real world' community. If one wants to change the tone of that community away from those whom you believe to be superfluous or not living up to your own intellectual rigor, in order to more accurately reflect one's own predilections, the surest way would be to write one's own blogs and to do so more often rather than less. Beyond that, holding others accountable in comments will surely have an effect in this regard. Unfortunately some of those most critical of the 'status quo', (which incidentally seems to be in continual flux), at TPM don't post as often as I would like to read them. That may just be a function of available time, which some here obviously have more of than others. In the end perhaps 'the dominant clique' is as much a function of the frequency of one's posts and comments as it is some subversive groupthink at work. As such, sitting back and lobbing the occasional criticism, however well founded, at the site's current gestalt may be as easy as it is lazy.
I'm waiting for this blog to ascend the recommended list, so you will have to defend it against having reached that status due to being a member of the dominant clique. ;)
August 30, 2009 6:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good points all, piggy. This place is what we make it. Thanks for taking so much time to put together such a helpful comment.
August 30, 2009 10:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Please use more paragraphing. :]
August 31, 2009 12:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
If one has something to say it can still be said.
August 30, 2009 6:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Did you used to be Yoda?
August 31, 2009 12:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yoda would have said something more like: "If something to say, yes, one can still say it".
August 31, 2009 12:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
one can say it still...
August 31, 2009 12:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
Y'see Peegie, this is why you're better off auditioning for the Wookie instead of Yoda.
August 31, 2009 12:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Dude! I played Chewbacca in SWII!
August 31, 2009 12:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
thats what thinkin i was
September 1, 2009 5:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
I love the Cafe community, because I have gotten to know some awesome people. So what if it is more a community or family support group? So what if we encourage each other? If someone thinks our posts have no value, then why do they read them?
August 30, 2009 7:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
They don't have to read them. On the other hand, do such posts have to be recommended?
There is a limited amount of space in the Reader Posts section, and posts appear there for a limited amount of time - slightly more time if they make it to the recommended list. Some posts require a lot of time to be digested, evaluated and responded to in an intelligent way with an assemblage of relevant facts. But a lot of the more substantive posts disappear before they can be subjected to substantive criticism and made the object of the sustained discussion they merit.
Is it really fair or constructive that these posts should be neglected and bumped off the discussion list because the "family" wants to over-recommend some more "I love you" posts?
August 30, 2009 7:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
We've been discussing this one for a while now, and I think a lot of the problem of having important, but neglected blogs drop off the page could be overcome by providing a link at the bottom of the page to previous blogs that have since dropped off the page. Such a feature would be useful for days when we're not able to access the internet, or visit tpm for whatever reson as well as for checking for some that slipped between the cracks. That seems like a relatively easy thing to modify on the site, and I'm surprised Josh or Al hasn't addressed it.
August 30, 2009 7:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
You'd be taken more seriously if you'd drop the spite.
Why is that necessary? Frankly, you are the one that sounds high school here. You've appointed yourself hall monitor, and you aren't terribly competent at that.
August 30, 2009 8:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Perhaps another way to approach this would be to e-mail Josh (or some other designated person on his staff)when there is a post up that is of such importance that it should be highlighted on the front page whether or not it makes it to the most rec'd list. Let's face it, not everything on the FRONT page is worth reading.
I do not have either the time or the inclination to have an complete understanding of EVERY issue, but I'm glad to see posts that have multiple links to in-depth reading, should I wish to know more. There have been many times I have found myself spending hours reading one link, which sends me to another and another, and learning way more about a subject than I ever thought I wanted to know.
Your comment (that piggy linked above)is what sparked this post. It made me re-examine why I spend so much time here, and question whether I contribute to or detract from the debate. I freely admit that I write more fluff than substance, but I do think I have a perspective worth listening to (at least at times) and am glad to have forum in which to speak.
Such is the beauty of the Cafe. There is something for everyone. Thank you for stopping by.
August 30, 2009 8:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just realized you took your comments and made a stand-alone blog. Thank you for that as well. Doesn't hurt to get the issue talked about, and maybe we'll come out of it with a greater appreciation for what we have here.
August 30, 2009 8:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Thank you, Josh, for not making me take a test before accepting me here."
This is such a great sentiment. There is freedom here. EVERYBODY can come, sign up, and then write something.
I love it here.
August 30, 2009 8:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
dickday,
excellent post :-)
August 31, 2009 2:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, and dickday,
quite egalitarian of you.
August 31, 2009 2:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ha!!I do my best at times. Yes, egalitarianism.
August 31, 2009 2:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Except when it contains race hatred, sexism, or violence towards a certain group, I have no gripe about content of any blog or comment. My gripe was concerning the unusually high number of recommends. That this phenomena happens only on weekends when the tech people are absent from the Mothership and not during weekdays when they are on board makes me suspicious, especially since a high number of rec's has not been the trend before.
If high rec'd numbers are the new weekend thing, then they are the new weekend thing. eh.
By the way, Still...I rec'd this blog. I like what you said and how you said it.
High five!
Up high!
Down low!
Have I taken up enough comment space yet? 'cuz, ya know, I don't want somebody using this space for intelligent discourse when I could just be typing more crap.
Hope all is well with you and yours.
August 30, 2009 8:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Got me laughin', time to fire one up.
August 30, 2009 8:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe part of the problem is that you only have the choice to recommend or not recommend. What if you had a thumbs up, thumbs down choice? I know that would open the possibility for some folks to gang up, but if you found something to be truly offensive, at least you could give a thumbs down instead of just walking away.
For myself, I'd like to see free doughnuts.
August 30, 2009 9:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
But only proletarian plain.
August 31, 2009 12:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
flower;
"crap" is the lubricant of an interesting thread.
August 31, 2009 5:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
What I like about this place is that the people here provoke thought. It's a great place to hang out, and actually feel like a real American who is exercising our precious freedom of speech, and then accept the consequences of his/her positions.
The presence of bona fide policymakers who can throw out statistics like seed corn on the main page is productive. These writers can get discussions started, and establish broad themes upon which others can extemporize. Then the diverse population of activists, thinkers, poets, friends, opeds and even troublemakers makes for a quite zesty mix of provocations and opinions, with a few facts and legitimately constructive dialogues along the way.
But the best part is having a place to express yourself and get feedback. Thanks to everybody who contributes.
And something really interesting is that, when I was in China recently, I could follow TPM and post to it. Other sites were not accessible. This was amazing to me. I'm hoping the the exchange of perspectives and opinions on this site will set an example for others in the world who cannot partake of the freedoms we enjoy. Write on, TPMers!
August 30, 2009 8:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
You can post here from China but not on other sites?!? I knew it! It's the Chinese infiltrating and bumping up the unaturally high recommends? But why on weekends?
Ah, maybe not, but it's alsways fun to put on the tin foil hat.
August 31, 2009 2:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hi Stilli,
I am with you. I think it be more sincere to say 'please read my posts' or 'I wish more people read and rec'd my posts' than being sour and asuming that we don't read them. When I have time I try to read them all.
No one is stopping any of us from posting incredible posts if we want to. You can see 'all reader posts' by clinking at the link at the end.
August 30, 2009 9:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Stilli:
The Cafe is a great place. I tend to harsh the mellow here, but I am trying to evoke an overarching spirit over the presidings. This spirit values a larger perspective-- one that exceeds the biweekly scope of conventional wisdom. I also want a fighting spirit, one that does not concede history to the machinations of elites. Retain the vision that the world is immense and the problems vast, but human will fueled by love can and shall overcome.
Anything that smacks of apathy, pity-party or dehumanization gets criticism if I have the time. I get criticised when I overstep too. Part of the reason I like the Cafe is because dissent and disagreement can be smart and kind.
What's driving me nuts is apathy-filled astroturf designed to peel apart liberals from moderates. It is this slag that keeps rising to the top of the rec list, and it poisons discourse.
August 30, 2009 9:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
What's driving me nuts is apathy-filled astroturf designed to peel apart liberals from moderates. It is this slag that keeps rising to the top of the rec list, and it poisons discourse.
This is a classic divide and conquer strategy, or tactic, or whatever. I believe it is purposeful and not in a manner that advances a liberal/progressive agenda, but weakens it.
August 31, 2009 2:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
Can you supply a link? I honestly have no idea what you are talking about posts that try to peel liberals from moderates.
If anything, I think the "liberals" are doing a good enough job of that on their own when every moderate of whatever stripe is accused of being an appeaser.
Or, worse, a centrist!
August 31, 2009 10:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
What an odd discussion.
Seems to me the cafe is what it is. I have found that while there seems a certain number of very regular readers/writers that the audience itself is large enough to accomodate a pretty flexible and changing set of writers. I don't much worry about who is among the top five but I don't think it's a bad thing for the front page because it gives a sort of preview to those interested and perhaps those not terribly familiar with the site. My sense is there is a pretty wide variety of writing, subject matter, interest and points of view to be found here. All in all I'd say that's a pretty good thing on balance though not at all a perfect thing.
The one real objection I have is when certain folks just are personally mean and hateful in their comments and flame people for no good reason. It's one thing to object or oppose a point of view but quite another to simply make pointed, personal remarks intended to offend for no apparent reason other than to offend. That's unnecessary. All the rest of what goes on here both good and bad, maddening and pleasing just seems to go with the territory as far as I'm concerned. If any of us don't like it, the solution is simple and easily accomplished. I like some and appreciate many more of those who post here.
August 30, 2009 9:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Cosign.
August 31, 2009 2:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well said, Oleeb.
August 31, 2009 2:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
Here's to hoping you take your own advice to heart. The personal sniping is out of control and mostly reserved for those of us not in lock-step with the left.
August 31, 2009 10:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
jason says:
"out of control" is a bit of an exaggeration.
If you aren't in "lock-step" with the left and you come to a left site and post shouldn't you expect a bit of sniping?
Stop whining.
August 31, 2009 10:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
This is not a left site. Read the actual disclaimer before making comments like this. Although I am hardly surprised that you recognize yourself in my comments and then provide a comment to prove the point even further.
August 31, 2009 10:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
I have a confession. I don't like ignorant birthers like David Farrar. Sometimes I say mean things.
August 31, 2009 12:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your pity for yourself is misplaced. You are the original johnny one note. You make the one point you have over and over and over. It is tiresome. I try not to comment on anything you have to say or write because it is pointless and you tend to drone on and on and on about your one point as though you have something original to say, but really you should get a clue. As John points out you are at a liberal/left site. What on earth do you expect? I don't have anything to say to you beyond this.
August 31, 2009 11:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
This is a center-left site at best. Read the damn blog description is you are still confused on this point. The rest of your comment is as predictable and misleading as it is uniformed and rooted in partisan ideology.
August 31, 2009 12:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
FYI.
August 31, 2009 12:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jason,
I love irony.
August 31, 2009 1:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
jason,
I clicked on the link you provided. What are we supposed to find there? Certainly not an affirmation that this is a center/left site.
Josh invites all ideologies to post, that doesn't make him or TPM center/left.
Air American invites all ideologies to call in too.
August 31, 2009 1:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
A site that accepts all political ideas and expression is by definition non-partisan, so neither left nor right as commonly understood in today's political environment. I say it is center-left due to the the preponderance of mostly reasonable blogs and comments here.
August 31, 2009 2:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jason,
the Heritage Foundation is "non-paritsan", as is the CATO Inst.
August 31, 2009 2:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
"You are the original johnny one note. You make the one point you have over and over and over. It is tiresome. I try not to comment on anything you have to say or write because it is pointless and you tend to drone on and on and on about your one point as though you have something original to say, but really you should get a clue."
Absoutely right. Anyone who thinks that the impotence of the center-left over the last forty years (let alone actual "liberals," who have been run out of the political discussion entrely) are as responsible for our country's problems as the Reaganite Right are really not worth engaging in discussion.
But Jason will tell you Kennedy and LBJ started the Vietnam war, so it all evens out. Or something.
August 31, 2009 12:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, what I said was they escalated the Vietnam War based on lies and half-truths yet are hailed as the saints of the democratic party.
Just like the last president did in Iraq and the current president may still do in some other poor part of the world that is standing in our way. It is called historical accuracy, but I understand why you don't like it. Being accurate doesn't help make your partisan points, so it is eschewed as "centrist" thinking.
Partisans always confuse their own muddled thoughts for the thinking of the majority, no matter which side of the fence you come from.
August 31, 2009 2:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, anyone with a functioning brain can laud a president for their successes, (Medicare, civil rights) while still criticizing them for their failures (Democratic opposition to Vietnam, remember, drove JBJ out of the White House).
But that doesn't fit your kneejerk "they're all the same" argument that you trot out every time someone points out the fact that the divisive, dishonest political tactics and budget-busting, inequality-exacerbating policies that the Republican Party is the chief proponent of have been the primary cause of our current problems, and the most intractable obstacle to finding solutions.
"Partisans always confuse their own muddled thoughts for the thinking of the majority..."
What a stupid comment. My thinking has not had majority support at any time in my adult life. And you can take your "muddled thoughts" bullshit and stick it up your ass. It's your lame attempts to shoehorn everything into a "pox on both their houses" frame that shows a failure to understand the facts in front of you.
September 2, 2009 11:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yet you still maintain that your thinking is what the majority has in mind today, so what does that say about you ability to learn from the past?
Still waiting for you to provide a quote where I assigned relative levels of blame for our current state of affairs to individual administrations. I don't think they were all the same, except as reflections of our own inability to truly have a country that is self-governed.
The rest of your comment is predictable in its desire to provoke and equally divisive reply. Sorry to continue to disappoint on that score.
September 2, 2009 12:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, take a nap. Poor, poor pitiful you. You come in here with this idea that you're the only one willing to compromise (dripping condescension) and then complain when people knock the stuffing out of your lousily-framed arguments. Poor poor pitiful you.
September 15, 2009 1:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Touché.
September 15, 2009 1:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Stilli,
Your post is an interesting twist on something and you've turned the victims into victimizers.
The conversation this weekend started because Aunt Sam didn't like that a new poster had a lot of rec's. In fact, that post was pretty good and deserved them.
So, the very people you think are being attacked are the ones that are actually the self-policing squad.
The fact is that no one from the "clique" is on the editorial board of TPM and therefore has any right to assume "authority". This is the essence of where the discussion started.
To this I would simply say, if one doesn't like the blogs that get high rec's, one can ignore them! But this particular group has to make up conspiracy theories that since *they* didn't rec the blog, then it must be nefarious.
Your post turns the argument upside down by claiming that the "clique" is the one under attack from a bunch of people.
August 30, 2009 10:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
I was objecting to what appeared to be gaming of the system and I'm surprised you think that just providing a link to a crank call or whatever radio program is pretty good. If you are talking about the one about Obama needs to act like a one term president, I rec'd that myself but the numerous recs in a short amount of time during the wee hours of the a.m. raised a red flag and in fact was responding to another comment.
Welcome back - hope all is well.
August 30, 2009 10:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/lizbensky/2009/08/one-term-president.php#comment-3578793
We often hear on TPM that the GOP is "paranoid" but how is this different -- especially on a post you rec'ed?
On the Internet, there are no "wee hours" in the morning... it's a global thing.
Seriously, this discussion is really all about why are some posts getting recommendations. I side with ArtAppraiser's already posted comments (on the thread I just cited) on this one.
August 30, 2009 10:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well then, to please everyone, the "clique" will stop worrying about what may be rigged Rec's, and just continue to post whatever we feel like posting and be done with it.
Everybody happy now?
August 30, 2009 10:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, the conversation is ongoing. It began at the beginning of the month when davidfarrar began to get dozens of reccomends for his posts. His posts were regurgitations of Limbaugh and birther piffle that would garner nary a peep here normally. Therefore, something was amiss.
This trend has continued. Posts that preach surrender, failure
and anger rise to the top. These posts are by concerned Obama supporters that are disillusioned and threaten fo jump ship if X occurs. In my opinion, the rec feature is being freeped.
Besides, it is difficult to take your opinions on this matter seriously. You have a longstandinv grudge against the Getalong Gang at TPM and post in Stilli's blog because you are guaranteed Stilli's attention. You will then spurn that attention and launch into ever more insidious tirades against certain posters specifically and conformity in general.
Unless I am wrong this time and you have been reprogrammed with a civility feature.
August 30, 2009 10:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
ACK!!! Boy do you know me!
You nailed that one! I thought I had concealed my affection for CT a little better than that! LOL!
August 30, 2009 10:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are very wrong, Zip. I posted something much more substantial on Dan K's thread.
The fact is that once upon a time, TPMCafe was a far different place (during the primary season). The comments were more substantial, the analysis deeper, and the perspectives were thoughtful, often times by people in the trenches who knew what they were talking about.
After the election, TPM has seen more and more of the people with significant backgrounds in various areas drift away. I count myself as one of them. Others had significant backgrounds in energy issues. Only Donal is left from that group. And so the "getalong crowd" as you call them, are actually what is left behind. They are left to wonder about many things like how the government functions like it does, what really goes on behind closed doors, what drives policy, etc. And why the left is so poor at organizing themselves.
August 30, 2009 11:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ahhhh yes, the primary season.
If I remember correctly, back then, the rain never fell 'til after sundown.
A Magical Time.
August 30, 2009 11:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, the primary season, when everyone was studiously analyzing the issues—like enacting single-payer healthcare and reducing the number of contractors in Iraq—rather than minutia that emanated from Camp Clinton.
August 30, 2009 11:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
The primary season? I couldn't disagree more. Perhaps at the very beginning of the season when there were supporters of a few candidates here. But pretty quickly almost all the supporters of candidates other than Obama left the site. Things are much better now that the Obamabots have left.
They clogged up the rec list with some of the most inane cheer leading posts, the analysis was generally weak because most people, even the intelligent Obama supporters, were afraid to critique Obama for fear of damaging his chances to win the election. And many of those Obamabots were part of a goon squad that attacked any who offered reasonable analysis supporting other candidates or critisizing Obama.
August 30, 2009 11:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Come on, dude. This is way too paranoid an interpretation for a US Marine.
Even Farrar makes the occasional good point and seems sincere in what he posts, never mind that his stinkers may have popped to the surface for whatever reason. Personally, having been accused of the same crime, I don't think anything is going on beyond a few people with multiple names who make "anonymous" recommends of their own sub-par writing and think the rest of the world is out to do the same.
Most people probably have a hard enough time keeping up with blogging and commenting as one person let alone as multiple people.
August 31, 2009 10:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
When in HELL did Farrar MAKE ANY GOOD POINTS? Good lord!
September 15, 2009 1:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Word.
September 15, 2009 1:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
I actually am not sure what you are saying, CT, but the fact that you are here is enough to make me smile. Seriously. In a good way.
I happen to agree that there is something weird going on around here with the rec's, but that is not what prompted the post. It was prompted by the comment that piggy linked to up in his comment.
I was trying to point out that the cafe has something for everyone, and that those who are less intellectual have no less right to be here than those who want hard-hitting debate.
The "clique" theme is one you hit on often, and the truth is there are a bunch of us who enjoy each other's company. It is no different than going to a cafe and finding the same group of folks hanging out at the same table in the corner every day. That doesn't mean that those people have taken over the whole cafe or others are not welcome at that particular table, much less in the whole cafe.
And, it is not to say that all those at that table are even of a like mind. I see a lot of diversity even within that small subset.
There are some here at TPM whose social skills are better than others. There are people here who at times make me cringe with their insensitivity, but it doesn't make me care for them any less. Some of those who paint ALL Christians with the same brush are the ones who I listen to the most, even though they obviously have no respect for me.
This is an odd place. But I like it. And I like seeing you here. Even when we fuss. Even when we disagree. Even when I don't understand what the hell you are saying. :-)
August 30, 2009 10:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
How can you write:
when you wrote above:
I posted a much longer comment on Dan K's thread which you may want to look it. You may find it clearer than you found my comment here.
August 30, 2009 10:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
I did read your other comment, and am trying to figure out how to respond. And you are NOT, I repeat NOT one of the grouchy intellectuals I was referring to. I was talking about people who left a long time ago, not recently, not you.
I don't know why you insist on believing I think the worst of you. You ARE one of the most frustrating people I have met here, that is for sure. I happen to think you are VERY smart, and have way more to offer than even you realize. If I've told you once, I've told you a dozen times that your delivery puts people off, but I can see through that, CT. Always have. If I felt the way you seem to THINK I feel about you, I would either ignore you or tell you take a flying you-know-what at a rolling donut. Instead, EVERY TIME you come back, I am happy to see you, and I say so. Why can't you just trust that? You make me crazy. But you also challenge me, and along w/ Blow have made me a better poster than I ever would have been without you.
August 30, 2009 11:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/ripper_mccord/2009/07/i-miss-clearthinker.php
August 30, 2009 11:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, well, that was then. This is now. I've missed you. You don't know how hard that is for me to admit. I've accepted that I don't get to chose between the two of you, and if it's having you both or not having you both, I chose having you both.
August 31, 2009 12:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
CT, if you put a little faith in Stilli, that despite having opposite views she still likes you, then you could let go of posts from long ago and move on.
What appears to be a problem for you and has become this stereotyping protective device for you, is this creation of a clique against you. It's pretty paranoid, really. There are many people who disagree with you. We do not conspire to disagree. We disagree all on our own and to suggest otherwise is kind of offensive. I think that you may be under the impression you are providing brilliant insight, and sometimes you do, and sometimes you may be the only one who thinks that. Therefore, rather then believe others disagree, there you create this homogenous clique out to get you. Frankly, we have more important things to do then "get you", but we do take a moment to object to somethings.
Another obstacle, as Stilli mentioned, is your tone. It is off-putting, this insistence that you have the better thought/idea. It has to be frustrating to maintain this perspective for yourself of you being #1 when there are so many who disagree.
When it all is said and done, I can only speak for myself and I will say this. I disagree that you are a clear thinker. You are an insistent thinker convinced, at time delusionally, that you are right. But I find your work articulate and I can sift through it to find some very keen insight. But sometimes, there develops this useless swordplay that unfortunately departs from the substance of posts, and it's very sad to see that you bring up things from so long ago to throw at people. It suggests to me you are very sensitive and perhaps this is the reason for your hair trigger. I think keen sensitivity comes with being an over-active thinker.
Maybe you should consider deleting some responses before sharing them and recognize what those responses say to you, rather then to others. I do it occassionally. Adn sometimes I don't. I;m not perfect, but I am developing a self-editor to try and provide better posts and responses. if I am going to take someone's time reading my posts, I should give them something useful. That is my intent, anyway and I hope you find something useful in this as you sift through it. It is good to see you back.
August 31, 2009 2:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
And if the people here really profess to like the idea of "the cafe has something for everyone" and "just skip the posts you don't like", then there is absolutely no need to police the site, nor is there a reason to be concerned about rec's.
August 30, 2009 10:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Didn't I just say that?
August 30, 2009 11:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Echo... Echo....
August 31, 2009 12:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
I really like the idea of the cafe. I'm still relatively new here, but I was welcomed almost immediately and I try to do the same for other people. If it feels cliquish, it's because it's a cafe! In every cafe there are regulars, and then there are those who just drop in every now and then.
I like the idea that there are so many different thoughts swirling around at any one time. As in any cafe, there are people clustered around talking about anything and everything. It's up to each of us to decide which conversations we're going to attach to. The one thing we do know is that we're always welcome, and can freely join in on the conversations without feeling like interlopers. (That is, unless we really ARE interlopers.)
Viva Cafe!
August 30, 2009 10:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hay guys and gals
Was all this truama associated with my post "CONTRETEMPS"?
I am gaming nothing! I did get the feeling that we were gitting a different adiance on the weekends. I noticed a couple weeks ago that a post of mine placed mid week would drop off quickly.
I really am trying hrd to write something for the cafe at least once a week just for the practice and love of writing.
I always thought the cafe was a apropreate place for the posts i make. No one has asked me to go away-yet.
I feel some of what I write is would be better discarded.
M. Paul
ps- Dan K, what about that duel?
August 30, 2009 11:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think anyone is reacting to what you wrote in your blog M.Paul.
August 30, 2009 11:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Stilli -
You make this site wonderful. I've been a lurker around here for about a year now - or at least I haven't posted to my blog in about that long. Partly it's because every time I have an idea to post I find 4 other blogs here on that topic (2 of which it better than I can), and partly because when I did post, I got no recs and no replies - pretty disheartening.
Now, I like to read, respond when I have time, but mostly I visit the chatroom (and I think I like the immediacy of that better than a blog).
Because I haven't been "participating" as much, I think I have some perspective. What I've noticed is that some of the folks who have been here since before the election romanticize that time - it was such an active time here that it's easy to forget that it was peppered with nonsense posts, personal (non-political) reactions to current events, and trolls - TONS of trolls - in addition to the more intellectual posts. It was so active that to get on the most rec'd list you needed 20+ recs, and the list reset every couple of hours instead of every 24 hours.
Then we had a bit of a slow period, and we're coming back out of it. The Cafe contracted. And I think the problems we have now are growing pains as we expand outward again.
I love the tenor of the Cafe right now...and I look forward to seeing it evolve. Thank you Stilli for trying to keep everyone on the good path. You're someone I always click on, and I hope you continue to share your thoughts.
- Burnie
August 30, 2009 11:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Better watch out, Burnie...you're going to get labeled!
But, seriously, thank you. I really do try to stay true to myself and to be a positive rather than negative influence. I know I'm not the smartest person around here, and certainly not the most eloquent, but I like to think that I have a balanced perspective most of the time, and am certainly open to learning. Thank you so much for being willing to listen to what I say. I appreciate it very much.
August 31, 2009 12:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
The Cafe is exactly what it is intended to be. Everybody gets to read, consider and respond to what anyone else writes. What more could you ask for? People strike up friendships and also argue about things. Groups form, disassemble and change in dynamic ways exactly as people have done forever. The constancy of the sharing of ideas is what is important. The more this happens throughout our society, the more inclusive it is, the better we'll be for it.
August 31, 2009 4:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
This blog is getting FAR to many comments for the subject at hand.
If a point can be maybe at all by it's subject, that would be that everyone who has commented here should seriously think about getting a life.
Myself included. :-)
C
August 31, 2009 9:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree completely with the post, as well as every single comment. I stand firmly with you all on this one.
Now, where's my clique? I'm hitting tape-measure shots and everyone's over here
;)
August 31, 2009 10:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
Just don't forget where the journey began, Stilli. The TPM Cafe is no less reflexively paranoid about ideas outside their understanding now that you are behind the red rope.
I think CT's point is that the people shouting loudest about supposedly being abused by certain types of commentary are oftentimes the worst offenders of the bunch. I have come a long way in the year and half I have been here, but the biggest improvement I have sought to make is the words in which I use when I disagree as well as those I use when responding to attacks. I am provoked to the point I want to unload with both barrels on a daily basis, yet I usually refrain as it damages my long term political goals.
Yet, it never fails that no matter how polite and measured my words may be, there is one or two or ten people around to start and continue a flaming war long past any point of reasonable disagreement. I don't take it personally and can certainly hold my own against such attacks, but for the vast majority of lurkers it makes the democratic faithful look like a bunch of naive weenies.
That is what I am fighting against.
The transformation we need to make over the coming years is too important to leave up to democratic party alone to get it done, especially considering their lackluster resume these last four decades. Based on the response of many around here to criticism, I can see nothing but a partisan hell ahead of us if the moderates of both parties can't control their more illogical, volatile and combustible fringes.
August 31, 2009 10:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for the reminder, Jason, although, believe me, I'll never forget.
I'm very grateful that TPM exists. If this has been nothing but a place where really smart, in the know people came to congratulate themselves on their brilliance, I would not have come to know so many of you, or had such a dramatic change in the way I approach politics.
I do appreciate the informative, instructional posts. I've learned a lot from them. And many times the comments that arise from them are even better than the posts themselves. But I doubt I would have stayed had that been all there was. I also enjoy the more personal, less intimidating posts that give such texture to this place. They can be a welcome break from the doom, gloom and seriousness.
I guess the bottom line is, this place is now and will continue to be what we make it. If there isn't enough meat on the main page, that is Josh's fault, and those who feel that way should let him know. If there isn't enough meat in the reader's blogs, then either contribute more, don't read this section, or continue to weed through to find the gems (and there are many.)
I would hate to think that anyone would be intimidated into not posting just because some find their content to be trite.
August 31, 2009 12:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am fan of zero censorship when it comes to blogs, so while I may see the danger in group think, I certainly see no reason that it should be condemned.
However, jumping on new posters because they are offering something different is not only rude but it is counterproductive as well. There are a lot more eyes viewing the festivities than the ones we typically see.
I have always tried (though I sometimes fail) to be on my best behavior. It's why I use my own name.
August 31, 2009 12:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
This thread is making recommendation numbers resemble a pissing contest. I could care less how many people recommend an article, I ignore those numbers completely and rely only on the subject matter.
August 31, 2009 10:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Which is one of the things that makes this place so great. You can read or not read whatever you want. No one is deciding for you which articles are "good enough."
August 31, 2009 12:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow - looks like everybody got all introspective about the community here over the weekend. I was gonna read the original Dan K post that preceded this, but I think after reading these comments I have the story.
Anyhow, I have been hopping in and out of here for about 1.5 years now, and I think the cafe tends to reinvent itself constantly. Someone is always going to be complaining that it's not how it used to be, when brilliant gods strode the comment sections, bestowing intellectual cred on all. Too bad, because they will miss all of the new voices. Some may kvetch that that those damned middle-aged people are always writing about their families, feelings, etc. Treasure the balance of head and heart you'll find here, I say! I hop around to a lot of other blogs, and I find the TPM cafe community to be unique in many ways. Glad to be here right now.
The old pond
A frog jumped in,
Kerplunk!
- Basho translated by Allen Ginsberg
August 31, 2009 12:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
You should read Dan K's blog, tt. It's not on the same subject really. I tried to point that out in my comments here.
The comments on Dan K's blog are also quite substantive and, I would imagine, eye-opening to those who posted here. You don't get over 90 rec's these days unless it's touched a wide nerve.
Part of the problem is that too many here who claim to want diversity, immediately get upset if blogs not to their liking get a large number of rec's. They view it as an intrusion on "their" domain. That's what a large part of the comments on Dan K's blog concern themselves with as well.
August 31, 2009 12:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
As I mentioned in Dan's blog, CT, my intention in posting this (contrary to your opinion that it was a "rec" issue) was to point out that there is enough room in the cafe for all of us...no one group owns the place. This post is not about "groupthink" or whether the system is being gamed or not. I've made comments on those issues on other blogs, but that was not addressed in this blog, because that was not what was on my mind when I wrote it. When you get off on tangents, it moves the discussion away from the point of the blog.
Between the two blogs on this subject, there are over 130 rec's and 300 comments (mostly on Dan's) and many different points of view. I encourage all who still have any interest in it to read both.
My hope is that when all is said and done, we will all take time to appreciate TPM for what it is, contribute in whatever ways we are able to making it better, and to make sure there is always room for everyone who is here to learn or to teach (spammers excepted.) Living in isolation to other points of view is not a good thing...been there, done that.
August 31, 2009 1:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
CT, I don't know ifyou were lurking weeks ago, but there was some seriously empty posts as few weekends ago that had nothing in them and dozens of recommends. I am not saying this from a partisan perspective, I am being literal. There was nothing in them. It was a ruse that has been played for the past few weekends. I don't think DanK is a saboteur, or that it was too successfuyl this weekend, but it was definitely an event that has been repeated putting vacuous posts at the top to push substantive, and I am using that term generously, off the board.
August 31, 2009 1:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, I did see that. I'm finding myself here more after hours than I used to be because of family obligations. What is sad about it is that it compromises the reccing system, so that you can't believe it anymore. I don't know why bullies feel the need to come into the sandbox (even a public one like this) and start throwing sand...But, as I told CT, the rec's aren't what drove this post, honestly (that's my family's code word that is not allowed to be used unless you are telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.)
You do have to admit though, 2 posts each, by 2 people not well known here in the top 4 positions at the same time all w/ nearly 40 to 45 recs? What are the odds?
August 31, 2009 3:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
It was set up. I'm really irritated with those who will propose some other factor. It was set up.
August 31, 2009 4:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
stillidealistic said:
Sorry, but I find the whole goddamned debate childish. It sounds like a bunch of little kids calling each other names. I wasn't aware that some people who come here are so super sensitive.
The last place I would expect to be zinger free is a political blog.
August 31, 2009 3:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for stopping by John. All points of view are welcome here at the cafe. I find the debate far from childish. A comment was made that I took exception to, and rather than crap on someone else's blog, I posted it in my own blog for possible discussion.
In my own life, I find clearing the air to be helpful, and much of the time it is the same here. Obviously there are many who agree, or there would not be nearly so many comments between the 2 blogs on the subject.
I don't believe the conversation on this topic has been a waste of time. After reading both blogs, I'm sure there will be many who reevaluate the content of their own blogs. There are probably others who will be inspired to begin adding content rather than expecting someone else to provide it for them.
Rarely, if ever, is discussing an issue head on a bad thing. Letting things fester until they erupt into an insensitive rant can be.
August 31, 2009 4:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
The answer to your title question is really very simple.
The Cafe belongs to TPM Media LLC.
And they have chosen to make it open to the entire world public.
Anyone with an internet connection, a device to use it, and an email address can participate, as long as they follow these rules:
Anyone following those rules is welcome to participate. If you think it is only for a certain community, you are wrong, until they change those rules.
Participants here have been furnished the ability to form little communities by using the various software tools, but no one is prohibited from butting in to those little communities, or complaining about or to those communities, as long as they follow the rules.
And no one is prohibited from forming other "communities" or groups of their own, even (*gasp*) Republican ones who bring along their friends to recommend their posts, just like liberals get their friends to recommend their posts. Or even (*gasp*) people who think the general zeitgeist of the site sucks.
No "community" here has special protections, that's the reality of the current set-up.
August 31, 2009 4:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
And if I ever said anything contrary to what you said, please let me know and I will graciously eat my words. I agree completely, with everything except for your tone that makes it appear that I feel otherwise.
August 31, 2009 6:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm sorry if you read an antagonistic tone into it, as that was not intended, I was really just riffing off of/adding to what you wrote.
September 1, 2009 1:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you...appreciate the clarification. I've been told recently I assume too much. Tone is obviously one of those things that is difficult to discern in this medium.
September 1, 2009 10:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you...appreciate the clarification. I've been told recently I assume too much. Tone is obviously one of those things that is difficult to discern in this medium.
September 1, 2009 9:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Notice the time stamps on these...huh?
September 1, 2009 11:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well! I think this has been a positive experience. Thank you all for being you!
September 1, 2009 9:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
test
September 18, 2009 11:52 AM | Reply | Permalink