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Looks Like We're Getting A Bush-Era Torture Investigation


I've been been accused, on these very pages, of supporting torture (TPM member Steve Katz wants the USA to opt out of the Convention Against Torture)!  He did spell my name right.

My position has always been clear, I favor an investigation, when the time is right.

Well, get the kids, make the popcorn, get into your snuggies, "They're here."

Daniel Klaidman writes in Newsweek; Independent's Day: Obama doesn't want to look back, but Attorney General Eric Holder may probe Bush-era torture anyway.
Four knowledgeable sources tell NEWSWEEK that he (Holder) is now leaning toward appointing a prosecutor to investigate the Bush administration's brutal interrogation practices, something the president has been reluctant to do.
"...leaning toward..."  Really.  Ponder this:
The night before (Holder), he'd stood on the roof of the White House alongside the president of the United States, leaning over a railing to watch fireworks burst over the Mall, the monuments to Lincoln and Washington aglow at either end. "I was so struck by the fact that for the first time in history an African-American was presiding over this celebration of what our nation is all about..."
Let see, I'm pondering what may be one of the most important investigations in the history of our Republic and I'll invite Newsweek to my home for breakfast to...ponder.  I don't think so.

Holder fully understands the implications:
While no final decision has been made, an announcement could come in a matter of weeks, say these sources, who decline to be identified discussing a sensitive law-enforcement matter. Such a decision would roil the country, would likely plunge Washington into a new round of partisan warfare, and could even imperil Obama's domestic priorities, including health care and energy reform. Holder knows all this, and he has been wrestling with the question for months. "I hope that whatever decision I make would not have a negative impact on the president's agenda," he says. "But that can't be a part of my decision."
"...negative impact on the president's agenda," I think not.  If all the media is talking about is, health care, what do we get, wall-to-wall Republican anti-health care propaganda.  The bill is DOA.

But, as the media can only handle one story at a time, barely, this will suck up more air time then Michael Jackson.  Meanwhile the heath care and energy bills will be written and dumped on Johnny Republican's desks in the middle of the night.  And, rightfully so.

What do we get?  Hopefully, the truth to what was one of the most heinous crimes against our Constitution, in history.

Hey, all you conspiracy theorists out there, don't you find it just slightly coincidental that this week, Obama extended Cheney's Secret Service protection (so we'll always know where he is?). Let us pray that someday they ask him for his passport.

So, let freedom ring.  May Bush and friends be treated, fair and balanced.  Pass the popcorn.  And, God bless the United States of America.

45 Comments

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Well Steve, I for one know you are against torture.

However, I am for it under certain limited circumstances.

I think for instance that Gonzo should be made to eat every memo he ever wrote as he sits in his underwear watching himself on TV.

I think Yoo should be made to sit in his undershorts tied to a chair until he has proven that he can recite the entire United States Constitution; all the while they play the Woo Hoo Song. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S-I7Z7swNMs

I think cheney should be tied to a chair (with a proper intervenous feeding) while he listens to every single lie he ever told on TV and Radio--all the while being carefully cross examined by the meanest 3rd year law student at Harvard.

I think w should be tied to a chair on national television and made to confess to every single lie he ever told--WITHOUT A PHONY TEXAS ACCENT. Every time he lapses into texas, he HAS TO START OVER.

These are just a few exceptions.

But no my feline canine friend, you have never even hinted that you condone torture.

WHILE I CONTINUALLY HAVE. HAHA

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Ditto.

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I seem to remember a very poignant blog distinctly and unflaggingly linking you, DD (and your dog boo) to the whole sordid affair; Blogger Dickday Responsible For Waterboarding!. How quickly and quixotically they forget. HAAA...

The Woo Hoo song???

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What you suggest is nothing more than an exercise in j3rk1ng 0ff - serves no useful purpose. But if it was snark, you fooled me.

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DD, I'm with you on the torture. But I want to take a step further for Yoo. He should have to watch the video while the song plays too!

My Gawd! That was painful! {blesses himself}

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As you may, or may not know, an investigation/commission has been my preference as well, Steve. I've been hopeful that it would come and I'm glad to hear this.

The Financial Times published an interview with Larry Summers. Summers says this:

“The president made two things clear to us early on,” recalls Summers, who answers my questions in full, idea-packed paragraphs, rocking gently back and forth in his seat as he gets into the flow of an argument. “He would do what he had to to fix the banking system, to get the economy out of the rut in which he was inheriting it. But he had run for president to do long-run, fundamental things, like fixing healthcare, like having real energy policy, like reforming education. And we weren’t going to be distracted from those things.”

Obama’s most important political calculation has been this decision to press ahead on all these fronts at once – and the success or failure of his administration will rest largely on whether that was the right call.

This is exactly what I thought was going on and why I have never given up hope.

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I do. Us dogs stick together...

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Sounds good, but put me in the I'll believe it when I see it camp. I've been burned one too many times on this administration putting up fronts like they'll do something when they have no intentions of doing anything of the sort. See AIG bonus scandal, executive compensation restrictions, etc. etc. etc.

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He hasn't disappointed me yet...s

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Gotta agree.

Klaidman's article is a "source greaser" -- not the likeliest place to find news-you-can-use.

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But this is different. It's the Department of Justice doing its' job, for a change. What's especially delightful is with Justice cranking the engine, it takes Congress and POTUS completely out of the picture. It's strictly a legal investigation to determine if US Laws, treaties and the Constitution were broken in order to satisfy actions taken by the past Administration that fall into the category of a crime(s). Congress can't complain because it's the laws they passed and expect Justice to enforce and Obama is completely out of the picture because it has nothing to do with governing. By the way, go read Jane Mayer's book The Dark Side. Your eyes will pop out! It's a primer for what's to come. It includes Cheney, Addington, secret paramilitary assassin squads, appointees overruling career civil servants, folding, bending and mutilating laws to support a secret agenda and so forth.

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It isn't different at all.

The DOJ serves the President and thus when they pursue it the Republicans will tag Obama with it which is what the admin has feared all along because they would like to make it appear that Obama is somehow nuetral on the question of war crimes, etc... I find it difficult to believe the admin will actually investigate any of this given Obama's open adoption and endorsement of some of the illegal means and methods of the Bush years.

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Pay attention ...you may learn something.

The most recent episode of Bu$h and Friends is the one where Atty Gen Ashcroft has just come out of surgery and Bu$h sent Gonzales and Card over to his hospital bed side to have him sign a simple piece of paper. Not only did Ashcroft say NO, he told the two fools that James Comey, the Deputy Atty Gen, was the acting Atty Gen while he was convalescing from his surgery. Of course, Comey had already told them to shove off, that's why they were attempting the end run.

Now IF the DoJ serves the President as you say, then explain why Ashcroft didn't sign the paper? The fact is the DoJ doesn't serve the President, he serves the people. At least Ashcroft had the backbone to stand up to Bu$h and Cheney and refuse to cooperate with their intrigues.

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Ashcroft, for once, did his duty in that case instead of caving in to political pressure. Ashcroft resisted an illegal order. That isn't analagous to or in any way enlightening regarding Obama and Holder currently. Obama isn't asking Holder to do something illegal. It is obvious from their public statement and actions that they consider the question of whether or not to do their legal duty and investigate war crimes as a political one and not a matter of a basic criminal legal investigation.

The AG always answers to the President and if you are completely naive you will think otherwise. The question is will they act with integrity, meaning will they do their jobs regardless of their political reservations in doing so? In almost all previous adminstrations, the responsibilities of DOJ were taken seriously enough that this sort of thing wasn't really an issue. After the Bush years it is always going to be an issue moving forward because Ashcroft and Gonzalez and Mukasey were so subservient to the White House.

Is is the job of the AG to respond to the White House and be responsive but first and foremost to carry out their duty. As (unfortunatley) in so many areas Obama has chosen to mimic the Bush administration approach so too has he chosen to do so on the question of investigating war crimes up to and including the present time. Will Holder have enoug integrity to insist to the President that the law requires investigation as it very clearly does? It seems unlikely given their odious behavior thus faar in office, but we will have to wait and see if they continue true to form or if they deviate and do the right thing. I am not holding my breath. You are welcome to if you choose.

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When will it be time to go straight to jail? Cheney's time is approaching fast. There is a related post at http://iamsoannoyed.com/?page_id=588

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I'm betting on the basis of no evidence at all that is is "good cop-bad cop" strategizing, and that Holder and Obama discussed this over their drinks or choice (or maybe by blackberry). It is a very old Community Organizer trick used by Saul Alinsky and Martin Luther King.

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I think you're exactly right.

Why would Holder start agonizing over this now? Because of the fireworks?

The only thing that changed between Feb 2009 and today is the failed stimulus, tanking economy, stalled cap-n-trade and the Blue Dog revolt on healthcare.

Good cop - bad cop tactic would allow Obama to create a distraction from the economy without flip-flopping on his own words re: investigation(not that flip-flopping has been a big problem for him before).

But given that he has adopted Bush policies in so many other areas, and made them even worse in preventive detention, I wonder if this "no evidence" article, as well as NYT sensation about a secret program that never went operational, I'm wondering if this is just a pressure tactic from a certain wing of the party.

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Right. It's obviously all just a perfidious plot to launch a big cynical show trial to distract the proles from the inexorable failures and disasters you've been so presciently predicting all along.

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It would certainly appear so, except that I think Obama has run out of the moral high ground to do this by now.

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Memo to self: never write something when you're in a hurry and have to catch a bus. Let me clarify. Bad cop/good cop in my meaning of the phrase has little or nothing to do with the liberal base. It has everything to do with congress, especially the Senate, and even more especially the blue dog factor over which he has little or no control or influence directly. By soft pedaling issue "a" with them he may just get them to soft pedal their opposition to issue "b". In the meantime Holder can do the heavy lifting with his full consent. This has nothing to do with show trials... but of course you knew that anyhow.

As a footnote, I don't buy Biden's "loose tongue," either. Obama probably knows the substance if not the actual words he utters before he utters them. Unlike his predecessor, Obama doesn't need to have his administration speak with one voice...he needs it to speak with many voices.

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Why is it necessary to play good cop-bad cop when you control both the executive and legislative branches? I mean, what is to be gained by that and from whom? Alinsky and King were on the other side of the power struggle. You know, the Have-Nots side.

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Because its the only chance they've got to do the investigations without derailing Obama's domestic agenda. As long as the MSM buys the line that its happening because DoJ's gone all rogue and independent and despite Obama's frequently expressed wishes, there's a chance, a small one, but at least a chance, that it won't turn into the kind of agenda-slayer that Whitewater was.

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So this is forming the exploratory committee. Test the waters a bit. See how everyone reacts. If it looks like it will work, and not mess things up overmuch, then it's time to run?

Jeez, I wish it was a simple "There's reason to believe that many have done illegal things. We are investigating. If there's proof, we will prosecute."

Jump in the pool, dammit, and forget putting in the big toe.

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This popped up on Itunes while I was reading your post. Seems a wonderful analogy!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pZ3TTmm0n4

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At the Nuremberg trials, we held individual Germans responsible. My Lai was covered up until Time published the photographs, then 25 men were exonerated and only Calley was convicted, and he served only a short sentence.

As they say, history is written by the victors. I would say the torture investigation will end up about the same. There was plenty of screeming about My Lai, but the attitude that prevailed was "its us against them."

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As they say, history is written by the victors.

Ok, then what do the Vietnamese have to say about My Lai?

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They say nobody wins in a war.

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Not to put too cynical a point on it but "they" probably don't include chickenhawks who cashed in on Lockheed and Halliburton stock this decade.

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Lalo said:


The only thing that changed between Feb 2009 and today is the failed stimulus, tanking economy, stalled cap-n-trade and the Blue Dog revolt on healthcare.

Obama signed the stimulus bill on Feb 17, about 6 months ago; to say its failed is absurdly premature. Our economy is like a supertanker, you can't turn it around on a dime. Whether or not the stimulus works, whether or not it was too small and we need another, I don't know. What I do know is I'll give it a year, then I'll make a judgement.

The "tanking economy" is simply the supertanker Bush handed over to Obama.

"stalled cap-n-trade" and the Blue Dog revolt on healthcare" are meaningless until the bills either pass or die.

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Don't bother trying to reason with him. He's known the Republic was dooooooooomed, doooomed, since the evil Obama stole the nomination.

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Is that so?

Obama said that passing Porkulus would keep unemployment at 8% or below THIS YEAR. And that failure to pass Porkulus would drive unemployment to 8.8% or more THIS YEAR.

The entire purpose of Porkulus was to create (or save) jobs immediately. The White House said the Porkulus money would go to "shovel-ready" projects.

Obviously, you're going to give it as long as Obama asks you to - and now he's blatantly lying that Porkulus was design to deliver impact over two years.

So which way is, with the "supertanker": the shovel-ready meme was a lie to push for the bill or the changing story about its effectivness is a lie? At least one of these is not true and the WH is on the record with their claims.

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Lalo, you're in for a long wait if you think any of this is going to matter politically within the next 4-8 years. Findings that Saddam didn't have WMDs, the outing of a CIA agent and evidence of torture were not enough to pull the Democrats out of the political Sahara until nearly the end of a long 8 years. And as it turns out, the Sahara was a lot closer to DC than wherever it is the Republicans are right now. Relax, it takes a lot of energy to be so miffed. Don't use it all up before the end of the first year. Just sayin'.

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I was responding the comment above concerning the old and the new spin on Porkulus.

As far as the "investigation" is concerned, well it turns out that, as always, there's a lot of smoker and mirrors:

"The actions of higher-level Bush policymakers are not under consideration for possible investigation"

http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/07/12/holder/index.html

This is Abu Ghraib redux.

So please spare me the talk of anything progressive about this President.

There is nothing. Nada. Zilch.

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OK.

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Having read the article it looks like Holder or Obama periodically gets enough stuff released to keep the groundswell for a special prosecutor on the upswing until the healthcare and energy bills are out of the way and Holder "has" to name one.

I wonder how this all coincides with the 2010 election? My guess a prosecutor is named late this year or early next year but indictments come down soon after Nov 2010. A lot depends on how the wars in Pakistan and Afghanistan, and elections in Afghanistan and Iraq, are playing out at that time. If Obama gets better results for Afghanis, Iraqis and Americans Republicans are gonna have a hard time peddling their same old fear tactics. They'll simply cement the perception of them as as bedwetting hysterical incompetents on nat'l security.


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Sounds about right. There are also other considerations, too. Holder had/has to staff up. Locate and purge the Bush moles.

There have been some articles today the lead to DOJ going after those who went beyond the legal opinions that Gonzales and crew cooked up - my guess is they want to flip them...Stay tuned.

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Well I hope Holder has enough evidence to start at the top. Frying a bunch of small fish, field level sadists, who have to be cleansed from the system is all fine and dandy but working his way up the ladder just gives Cheney and Rumsfeld more time to prepare their defense and blackmail/buy off witnesses who might otherwise turn on them to save their own hides.

Remember these guys learned their lessens from Nixon. It was a long hard slog with a few key breakthrus that forced him to resign. Cheney isn't ever going to appear on the defensive if he can avoid it. He'll stick with the line that "these were and are legal and necessary measures the Obama administration is trying to politicize" forever if he can.

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back when Obama stepped on Holder's toes by ruling out such investigations I speculated, on my blog, that this might be the outcome he was hoping for. after all -- nothing gets the head of any department more kerfuffled than treading on his turf -- which Obama most certainly did.

and I agree with markg8 that timing will be everything.
as has been pointed out repeatedly, the O has to get his agenda passed before mid 2010. after that, may they pull out ALL the stops!

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I'm against torture. For the simple reason it is against the law. We have that law for good reason. Law, generally, is that way. We can't pick and choose and we need to be consistent in the application of law. Any other approach is sure to end in a mess. Virtually everything, in fact, is this way. Follow the rules and everything works out. Break the rules and you have a mess. Show mw a screwup and I'll show you where a deviation from an accepted normm or rule is at the center of the screwup. Every time.

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Yup! Our financial mess has its very origin at the root of rule breaking. The dishonest and illegal manipulation of the numbers to provide high risk loans and sell them as low risk loans brought this all to pass.

As for torture, we abandoned the Geneva Conventions to assuage our lust for revenge, and hopefully to link Saddam and 9/11. OF course, it's a real curiousity that none ever linked Saddam and 9/11. So, if torture can get anyone to say anything, how come it could not get anyone to say that? And, whether anyone ever did or not, why was there never the fabrication that they did link Saddam and 9/11.

For me, it all comes back to the torture being the pornography of an evil, sadistic sociopath who rejects the notion that he is our equal. Cheney at al were above the law. Until we bring them under the law, this is exactly how it is.

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Don't count your chickens until they're hatched.

Obama and his organization has a pattern of placating liberals by implying they will do the right thing which relieves the pressure on them to do so. Then, when push comes to shove, they go the other way and Obama issues a stern statement about protecting national security that sounds like Bush redux---remember how the whole FISA flip flop went down? Same scenario. As with any other politician who sees his job more as a game than a sacred obligation (which is nearly every single one of them), don't believe what they say unless what they do is in synch or matches their words. Up to now, every action of Obama's has been in opposition to investigation of any kind.

I hope he ends up doing the right thing, but I'll believe it when I see it and until then I suggest everyone who wants to see a restoration of the rule of law, the Constitution and respect for civil liberties restored to the Federal government keep up the pressure. Without that they wouldn't even be teasing people via Newsweek, but if they think they have gotten the left to back off even a little they will proceed on their rightward course without missing a beat.

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Don't count your chickens until they're hatched.

Wot?

=D

Maybe them eggs need to stand up and be counted!

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Eggzactly.

Also. :-)

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From Greenwald to eggs:

"But the sources said an inquiry would apply only to activities by interrogators, working in bad faith, that fell outside the "four corners" of the legal memos. . . ."

link above

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As I said on another blog, where is our Barbara Jordan

Click on the icon below the picture.

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steve katz

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