Once again the US Media has gotten the story wrong and
missed the point. It isn't about the 9/11 terrorists -- it is about Abu
Ghraib! I still remember the day I found out about Abu Ghraib, I was in
the US Air Force and I wore my uniform with a great deal of shame on that day,
and for weeks afterward. I was surprised by how many of my fellow service
members felt pride and joy at the news, it was deeply disturbing.
Think back to how you felt on September 12, 2001. Anyone in US custody that
was involved in planning or carrying out that attack deserves what they
got. These people are not protected by the Geneva Conventions.
Torture is not an effective way to get information from these people, but who
really cares if Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was tortured?
The big story here is that this torture was allowed to creep into the US military and
undermine respect for the Geneva Conventions. It led to illegal treatment
of innocent civilians in an illegal war. US Soldiers willingly and
enthusiastically promoted a reign of terror and torture over the detainees in
the Abu Ghraib prison. It is a fundamental failing in the US military
command structure, yet only a few enlisted people actually served jail
time. The whole story of Abu Ghraib has never been widely told and it was probably much worse than we were led to believe, especially if you believe Seymour Hersh.
The big story here is that Bush and Cheney are directly responsible for the
horrific treatment of innocent people in the name of every US Citizen.I may have missed it, but I have yet to see a
single report linking these two concepts.
Steevo, good post. There is an awful lot of information out there. Hard to piece it altogether.
I posted about stuff in the Daily Beast and TPM. One great source is this emptywheel.
My understanding so far is that IT ALL CAME FROM THE TOP. Every done at A/G was in memos, training manuals,etc.
The top got the OLC to 'make it legal'.
Then when the kids got caught, the top threw them under a bus.
The photos that were supposed to come out (over a thousand i think) were of our activity at other bases.
I dont know. Complicated.
But good post and I really relish the perspective of the soldier.
Steevo, Abu Ghraib was actually a migration of the torture policies from GITMO, except that there was nobody at AG even willing to limit some of the abuses. The two main honchos that migrated and tolerated the practices were Major General Miller and Richard(?) Sanchez, although Miller was the main player.
However, for all the torture that was authorized in the highest places, only 10 Americans have been charged. They are the low-ranking soldiers in the original AG photos that were labeled "a few bad apples". One is still in prison.
To me, that just magnifies the already unbelievable and horrible atrocities perpetuated by the Bush administration. As the author of this article says: There can be no restoration of the national honor if we continue to scapegoat those who took the fall for an Administration—and for us all.
Excellent post!
The more I hear about Abu Gharaib it is clear to me that the people at the 'top' most especially Cheney are sociopaths. Someone gave Cheney the name Blunderdick because Cheney never served in the military and thus they didn't feel he deserved the 'darth' reference.
I think Blunderdick is too kind and accidental. I read up on sociopaths when the reference started coming up and it fits him. He is also pathologically fearful. He is a sick man.
To regain integrity there must be accountability.
I also wanted to add that I hope that we hear more from the military. To have to serve under the Bush administration was clearly taxing to our military. We had so many leaders retire and it seemed always to be in protest to strategy. What has happened is just so awful, and there are so many sides to it. To be in the military and given orders to do things you know are morally wrong and illegal. To serve with others who are okay with those things and I can see why the 'Lord of the Flies' story has been mentioned. What a friggin, sad mess?
I have to remind myself about the best things about our democracy and the great, intelligent, and wonderful people in our country, and that restoring our integrity and reclaiming our decency is something worth fighting for and our military are.
I think that if any kind of truth commission will ever materialize, it will acquit all senior officials in the Bush administration, key Democratic accomplices such as Pelosi, Harman and Rockefeller, because the policy and process designed by the administration would not meet the definitions of torture given past court decisions in the US and in Europe.
However, there will also be a separate case of prisoner abuse in Abu Ghraib (and other known or secret prisons) and I believe torture findings will be made there.
One case will be similar to the IRA case in the UK. The other will be similar to the torture cases during Balkan wars.
.... it will acquit all senior officials in the Bush administration, key Democratic accomplices such as Pelosi, Harman and Rockefeller ...
None of the memos I read gave Congress any responsibility for the war, except paying for it. Not declaring it, not running it, not overseeing it, not receiving reports on it ... nada, unless the Pres felt like exercising his feelings of comity.
So leaving aside the question of torture, how did Pelosi, Harman and Rockefeller get elevated to accomplices? And ones that can be acquitted at that? Even if they knew and objected to EITs, would the administration have cared and would there have been much recourse for the three? Barney knew more than they did.
You asked:
"...but who really cares if Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was tortured?"
Me.
Perhaps you missed picking up the ideals expressed in that little event a few centuries ago, which came to be known as The Enlightenment.
For instance, Voltaire (IIRC) when speaking specifically about torture said something like: government must speak truth to even the lowest of its citizens.
Perhaps you missed something like this book:
Preventing torture By Malcolm Evans, Rodney Morgan available at books.google.com; begin on page 7, The Enlightenment and the Emergence of the Modern State.
More recently, Zelikow (referenced here at TPM) and probably others have said that the legal opinions would allow, for instance, you (specifically, you: some dude named steevo) to be tortured. I mean: stripped naked, soaked with a firehose, lashed to a ceiling, whipped, and left to crap down your leg.
And don't give me some pathetic bunk about how you'd be protected by "regulations"...unless you want to begin talking about civil service exams for torturers and how you propose to manage the bureaucracy of torture; for instance, do they have pay grades and 401k plans; or do you plan to continue with outsourcing and privatizing the American Gulag? Maybe Blackwater or some such private firm would be your choice?
But seriously: am I to actually believe that you, and others like you, have yet to evolve into a fuller, more complete, humanity; such that the ideals of The Enlightenment (the one that happened in the 18th Century) are optional?
Before you answer: the entire concept behind the TPMCafe originates in...wait for it...here it comes...The Enlightenment.
For crying out loud: it's 2009. It's time to grow up as a species, people; it's long past time we started acting like we possess genuine humanity.
I was being honest about my feelings. Humans are not yet anywhere near the moral level you describe.
And I, in my turn, was being honest about mine. You did ask, and I thought it was a real question, if anyone cared.
And with regard to the moral level: humans have had the option to attain Enlightenment-level morality for far longer than 200 or so years.
"You can't handle the truth!"
Torture is an accepted, respected tactic in response to a guerilla or insurgent threat. Responders must be able to identify and get at the insurgency's command and control -- and do it quickly before the low-level captive's information becomes stale.
The shock, I suppose, is that we haven't had to use torture directly since the Philippine-American War. We've been able to use surrogates trained by the CIA (Phoenix Program) and the U.S. Army (School of the Americas).
But after the welcoming flowers of an Iraqi May turned into August truck bombs -- and there were no surrogates around to hand the responsibility off to -- what else could one do.
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
wow.
“The shock, I suppose, is that we haven't had to use torture directly since the Philippine-American War.”
Ellen, the shock to me is that you made that statement because I don't think you would have unless you believed it. If you believe it I am only reinforced in my belief that one reason we need convictions of high ranking officials is so that even the high school history books cannot continue to fail to mention that high ranking officials of our country planned, implemented, and carried out torture. I hope they also teach that these dishonorable methods were for dishonorable ends.
"You can't handle the truth!"
Uncle Leo was the first I know of to preach that. I like to think that he was wrong. I believe that it is more likely that we cannot continue to handle lies.
Haven't used it directly???
Thanks for the kind comments, I wrote the post very quickly last night. I am tired of hearing the news fixate on trivial facts and missing the big picture about Torture.
To clarify, although I was in the Air Force on September 11, 2001, I never got anywhere near Afghanistan or Iraq. I was a physician in the military, so I never really considered myself a soldier. While I was only peripherally involved, I was able to witness military attitudes regarding torture. I considered showing up to work in civilian clothes the day after the Abu Ghraib story broke, but I was already close to getting in trouble without stirring the fire. It wasn't worth getting sent for a court-martial.
Our nation really needs a full accounting of what happened at Abu Ghraib, GITMO, and other sites yet to be named. We need to face the true horror of actions taken in our names. We need to deal with the national shame and ensure it never happens again. We also might understand why some people hate our country.
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As a former new-age organic free-range rat farmer, I bring a unique perspective to my career as a guerilla accountant for a large multinational holistic defense contractor. In my precious spare time I engage in two hobbies -- celebrity impersonations and astral projection. As a community service, I also dabble in psychotherapy, providing marriage counseling to foreign taxicab drivers.
Steevo, good post. There is an awful lot of information out there. Hard to piece it altogether.
I posted about stuff in the Daily Beast and TPM. One great source is this emptywheel.
My understanding so far is that IT ALL CAME FROM THE TOP. Every done at A/G was in memos, training manuals,etc.
The top got the OLC to 'make it legal'.
Then when the kids got caught, the top threw them under a bus.
The photos that were supposed to come out (over a thousand i think) were of our activity at other bases.
I dont know. Complicated.
But good post and I really relish the perspective of the soldier.
May 15, 2009 12:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
Steevo, Abu Ghraib was actually a migration of the torture policies from GITMO, except that there was nobody at AG even willing to limit some of the abuses. The two main honchos that migrated and tolerated the practices were Major General Miller and Richard(?) Sanchez, although Miller was the main player.
However, for all the torture that was authorized in the highest places, only 10 Americans have been charged. They are the low-ranking soldiers in the original AG photos that were labeled "a few bad apples". One is still in prison.
To me, that just magnifies the already unbelievable and horrible atrocities perpetuated by the Bush administration. As the author of this article says: There can be no restoration of the national honor if we continue to scapegoat those who took the fall for an Administration—and for us all.
May 15, 2009 2:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
Excellent post!
May 15, 2009 2:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
The more I hear about Abu Gharaib it is clear to me that the people at the 'top' most especially Cheney are sociopaths. Someone gave Cheney the name Blunderdick because Cheney never served in the military and thus they didn't feel he deserved the 'darth' reference.
I think Blunderdick is too kind and accidental. I read up on sociopaths when the reference started coming up and it fits him. He is also pathologically fearful. He is a sick man.
To regain integrity there must be accountability.
May 15, 2009 3:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
I also wanted to add that I hope that we hear more from the military. To have to serve under the Bush administration was clearly taxing to our military. We had so many leaders retire and it seemed always to be in protest to strategy. What has happened is just so awful, and there are so many sides to it. To be in the military and given orders to do things you know are morally wrong and illegal. To serve with others who are okay with those things and I can see why the 'Lord of the Flies' story has been mentioned. What a friggin, sad mess?
I have to remind myself about the best things about our democracy and the great, intelligent, and wonderful people in our country, and that restoring our integrity and reclaiming our decency is something worth fighting for and our military are.
May 15, 2009 4:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think that if any kind of truth commission will ever materialize, it will acquit all senior officials in the Bush administration, key Democratic accomplices such as Pelosi, Harman and Rockefeller, because the policy and process designed by the administration would not meet the definitions of torture given past court decisions in the US and in Europe.
However, there will also be a separate case of prisoner abuse in Abu Ghraib (and other known or secret prisons) and I believe torture findings will be made there.
One case will be similar to the IRA case in the UK. The other will be similar to the torture cases during Balkan wars.
May 15, 2009 8:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
.... it will acquit all senior officials in the Bush administration, key Democratic accomplices such as Pelosi, Harman and Rockefeller ...
None of the memos I read gave Congress any responsibility for the war, except paying for it. Not declaring it, not running it, not overseeing it, not receiving reports on it ... nada, unless the Pres felt like exercising his feelings of comity.
So leaving aside the question of torture, how did Pelosi, Harman and Rockefeller get elevated to accomplices? And ones that can be acquitted at that? Even if they knew and objected to EITs, would the administration have cared and would there have been much recourse for the three? Barney knew more than they did.
May 15, 2009 6:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
You asked:
"...but who really cares if Khalid Sheikh Mohammed was tortured?"
Me.
Perhaps you missed picking up the ideals expressed in that little event a few centuries ago, which came to be known as The Enlightenment.
For instance, Voltaire (IIRC) when speaking specifically about torture said something like: government must speak truth to even the lowest of its citizens.
Perhaps you missed something like this book:
Preventing torture By Malcolm Evans, Rodney Morgan available at books.google.com; begin on page 7, The Enlightenment and the Emergence of the Modern State.
More recently, Zelikow (referenced here at TPM) and probably others have said that the legal opinions would allow, for instance, you (specifically, you: some dude named steevo) to be tortured. I mean: stripped naked, soaked with a firehose, lashed to a ceiling, whipped, and left to crap down your leg.
And don't give me some pathetic bunk about how you'd be protected by "regulations"...unless you want to begin talking about civil service exams for torturers and how you propose to manage the bureaucracy of torture; for instance, do they have pay grades and 401k plans; or do you plan to continue with outsourcing and privatizing the American Gulag? Maybe Blackwater or some such private firm would be your choice?
But seriously: am I to actually believe that you, and others like you, have yet to evolve into a fuller, more complete, humanity; such that the ideals of The Enlightenment (the one that happened in the 18th Century) are optional?
Before you answer: the entire concept behind the TPMCafe originates in...wait for it...here it comes...The Enlightenment.
For crying out loud: it's 2009. It's time to grow up as a species, people; it's long past time we started acting like we possess genuine humanity.
May 15, 2009 1:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
I was being honest about my feelings. Humans are not yet anywhere near the moral level you describe.
May 15, 2009 7:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
And I, in my turn, was being honest about mine. You did ask, and I thought it was a real question, if anyone cared.
And with regard to the moral level: humans have had the option to attain Enlightenment-level morality for far longer than 200 or so years.
May 15, 2009 9:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
"You can't handle the truth!"
Torture is an accepted, respected tactic in response to a guerilla or insurgent threat. Responders must be able to identify and get at the insurgency's command and control -- and do it quickly before the low-level captive's information becomes stale.
The shock, I suppose, is that we haven't had to use torture directly since the Philippine-American War. We've been able to use surrogates trained by the CIA (Phoenix Program) and the U.S. Army (School of the Americas).
But after the welcoming flowers of an Iraqi May turned into August truck bombs -- and there were no surrogates around to hand the responsibility off to -- what else could one do.
May 15, 2009 2:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,
And the women come out to cut up what remains,
Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains
An' go to your Gawd like a soldier.
May 15, 2009 2:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
wow.
May 15, 2009 11:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
“The shock, I suppose, is that we haven't had to use torture directly since the Philippine-American War.”
Ellen, the shock to me is that you made that statement because I don't think you would have unless you believed it. If you believe it I am only reinforced in my belief that one reason we need convictions of high ranking officials is so that even the high school history books cannot continue to fail to mention that high ranking officials of our country planned, implemented, and carried out torture. I hope they also teach that these dishonorable methods were for dishonorable ends.
"You can't handle the truth!"
Uncle Leo was the first I know of to preach that. I like to think that he was wrong. I believe that it is more likely that we cannot continue to handle lies.
May 15, 2009 5:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Haven't used it directly???
May 15, 2009 10:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for the kind comments, I wrote the post very quickly last night. I am tired of hearing the news fixate on trivial facts and missing the big picture about Torture.
To clarify, although I was in the Air Force on September 11, 2001, I never got anywhere near Afghanistan or Iraq. I was a physician in the military, so I never really considered myself a soldier. While I was only peripherally involved, I was able to witness military attitudes regarding torture. I considered showing up to work in civilian clothes the day after the Abu Ghraib story broke, but I was already close to getting in trouble without stirring the fire. It wasn't worth getting sent for a court-martial.
Our nation really needs a full accounting of what happened at Abu Ghraib, GITMO, and other sites yet to be named. We need to face the true horror of actions taken in our names. We need to deal with the national shame and ensure it never happens again. We also might understand why some people hate our country.
May 15, 2009 7:14 PM | Reply | Permalink