False Flag Operation or Clinton Arrogance?
Over at Talkingpointsmemo, Josh Marshall posted the following Letter to the Editor he received:
Mailbag:I am having a hard time figuring out how to unpack this. The first thought that springs to mind is that this is a false flag operation, and that an anti-Hillary person sent it in the hopes of generating reaction and anger against Senator Clinton..
Soooo tired of bloggers jumping on the bash Clinton bandwagon.
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A loser...?
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If you'd stop for a moment, you would be exposed to the reality that Clinton is dominating the debates, dominating the polls. On the ground here in California, she has in place a growing organization that I guarantee you will crush any opposition - Democratic primary, or general election against the Repugs.
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It's time the blogosphere, and people like you, began to clean up your act. Stop acting so reactively. And perhaps realize that your unique hits aren't necessarily a measure of your credibility.
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On the other hand, this statement is very typical of what I read from Hillary supporters - just a bit stronger. And it is the kind of thing that is starting to lead me to think that Senator Clinton would be a very bad choice as the Democratic nominee.
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So I am curious what Cafe'ers think: is this an actual pro-Hillary statement, a false flag operation, or something else?
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sPh





Have you seen Nicholas Lemann in the New Yorker (8/27) on Karl Rove? In it you will find an explanation of Rove's electoral success strategies: specific interest grassroots groups organization. Accordingly, Hillary Clinton demonstrates a similarly successful strategy. Here's an excerpt:
So who is it again that thinks Hillary Clinton would be a very bad choice for the Democratic nomination? Liberal elites maybe?
August 25, 2007 1:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
If this portrayal of Hillary's strategy--cultivating support among "specific interest grassroots groups"--is accurate, I would be interested in hearing more about it, perhaps from the Election Central folks.
Hillary critics or cynics might jerk the knee and conjure up images of implied promises made in exchange for support provided, rendering her rhetoric about how she is running to "change America" suspect or at least in urgent need of clarification for primary voters.
Hillary supporters or sympathizers might jerk the knee and assume that she is probably just seeking support from interest groups whose causes she has long supported anyway (veterans, preschool education), and so she is just being a savvy politician in seeking support where she is likely to get it. Or, that she is simply being a smart politician by showing up and talking with these folks (perhaps, indeed, with one purpose of wanting to know more about what their views and concerns are), knowing she wins points just by showing up.
In the absence of more detailed factual reporting, Hillary seems to me to remain ever the Rorschach test.
August 26, 2007 2:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Obama started his grassroots organizing efforts on the internet and had phenomenal success with local groups meeting and organizing themselves. This led to the two-day Camp Obama where these field volunteers received more detailed training in setting up phone banks, doing neighborhood canvassing, etc.
Hillary has had less of a presence on the internet but has seized the Obama ideas and has set up groups and local training. There has been a recent blitz of Hillstar one-day training in California.
From the e-mail, I would theorize that one of the California trained volunteers has sent this e-mail to Josh emphasizing that their local organizing efforts on Hillary's behalf would surpass whatever the blogs were accomplishing.
Ha! Maybe Josh is a hidden Camp Obama graduate and he's been outed.
August 26, 2007 9:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
FWIW I read it as a straightforward attempt on the part of a Hillary supporter to whack back in the liberal blogosphere.
Interesting to me that the subtext as I read it is basically "Look, she's going to win the nomination and the presidency, so fall in line."
Nothing, in short, addressing the substantive considerations many in the liberal blogosphere identify in explaining why they are not supporting her candidacy.
August 25, 2007 4:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
First, it's certainly someone not at all familiar with the blogging world:
It's time the blogosphere, and people like you, began to clean up your act.
"The blogosphere...", as if it's one thing.
I take it at face value -- a Clinton supporter. Probably around Clinton's age group, not all that savvy online, just started to read blogs, etc, especially since Clinton started her "conversation" on her web site.
This:
And perhaps realize that your unique hits aren't necessarily a measure of your credibility.
What does that even mean? I don't understand, what "hits"? Attacks on Hillary? What would that have to do with credibility? The assumption is, the more you attack Clinton, the more credibility you have with bloggers?
Honestly, this little rant reminds me of our old friend Mary, from Rhode I.
But, anyway, yeah, I think it's an actual pro-HRC supporter. That's my guess.
"Thank God George Bush is our president." -Rudy Giuliani
August 25, 2007 6:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ironically, contrary to your assertion that the person does not seem internet savvy, this indicates to me that the commenter is a lot more internet & media savvy than you!
Unique hits refers to the number of individual users of a site, not the number of clicks. It's a number that sells advertising. (Clicks by themselves are a highly inaccurate way to judge how many eyes you are getting--the unique user thing is figured by ISP address. So you, cscs, who visits many many times, is only counted once.)
The commenter is applying a criticism that many bloggers apply against the MSM--i.e., just because you have gained "ratings" by causing controversy or by being inflammatory, don't assume you're gaining in credility with your customers, that they may be looking at your site for other reasons than that they trust you.
Note also that the commenter apparently also knows or suspects that Josh Marshall is the type that would care about credibility more than ratings. It's meant to be scathing, for sure.
August 25, 2007 6:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ironically enough, the opposite effect is achieved: instead of scathing, its laughable and pathetic. The fundamental misunderstanding is, of course, that Marshall has always put his credibility first, which is precisely why he has such a high "unique hits" number: he attracts all the users who are more interested in honest reporting and reaction than rating-mongering.
It seems as though someone has become so emotionally invested in his/her candidate that they've become incapable of handling legitimate criticisms. Indeed, faced with the uncomfortable cognitive dissonance of seeing someone you respect criticize someone you worship, all that's left to do is lash out irrationally and then spurn the site altogether, forever and ever amen.
A contributor this site won't miss, I don't think.
August 25, 2007 10:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
There's another important point I left out of the above:
The commenter says he donated more than once early on to TPM. He was a fan once, is angry now. Not at all unfamiliar with the blogosphere. If the believability of that statement was nil, Josh wouldn't have bothered to publish the email.
August 26, 2007 12:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
Still, contributing to TPM doesn't necessarily make one savvy, although obviously they know what TPM is...
But that remark about "the blogosphere better clean up its act" is a bit ridiculous.
August 26, 2007 5:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hmmm...that wasn't my interpretation at all. I know what a hit means in the internet sense, just didn't read it as such...
C'mon art -- fess up. Did you write that letter?
(kidding, of course...) :-)
August 26, 2007 5:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think Josh Marshall has the right interpretation of what is going on here in that he responds facetiously at the end of the two quotes:
August 26, 2007 12:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
"So I am curious what Cafe'ers think: is this an actual pro-Hillary statement, a false flag operation, or something else?"
This is the question posed to the readers of this post. My response is that I don't understand why, standing alone, it as all material whether the author of this letter to Josh is genuine or not.
What may be material, I think, is that many real or perceived Hillary supporters (and many real or perceived supporters of other Democrats) are prepared to support whoever gets the Democratic nomination. As a corollary, there are many perceived or real Hillary supporters (as well as supporters of other Democrats) who are concerned that liberals do not eat their young during the primary process by destroying this or that Democratic candidate. And, of course, there are undoubtedly real Hillary supporters who, for purely partisan purposes, would write letters such as the one at issue in this post, suggesting that Hillary's nomination is a done deal.
The flipside to the foregoing is obvious: that most of us posting on the process around here are registered Democrats or are otherwise eligible to participate in a Democratic primary or caucus in a particular state; that we are not potted plants; and therefore the time to debate about the relative merits of the candidates is now.
I do not understand, however, why the true motivations of one correspondent to Josh Marshall, i.e. whether he or she is a false-flagger or eminently genuine, is in any way significant. I guess I assume that, unless there is concrete reason to suggest otherwise, people who write letters to Josh or post comments at the Cafe or elsewhere on the internet believe in the merits of what they write. Perhaps I am naive to so assume.
August 26, 2007 8:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
I especially like your point about not being potted plants et.al. Because with cscs (on another post) bringing up the question of how a lot of the Election Central commenters have a different blog culture, I got to reading some of those threads and thinking about that more. And one of the things that occurred to me is the absurdity about worrying whether someone is a paid commenter or not on political threads on blogs when there's an election going on. What difference does it make with that kind of blogging? Everyone is just giving their opinion/spin, paid or not. Many of them are extremely partisan and passionate, paid or not.
Either you're going to try to limit it to more analytic commentary (the kind I personally prefer, I don't understand the need to tell who I am supporting or going to vote for, it's private, and I don't think it changes anyone's mind and I can find better entertainment than the mud wrestling) via rules/rating/moderation
or you might as well just let everyone give their spin.
Because everyone (not just MSM, but everyone in this country, from decades of sophisticated advertising) is so well-trained in spin, I think when a political race is on, trying to police spin in the the political coverage in the blogosphere would be a fool's game. It's ALL about spin, personal views of candidates.
August 26, 2007 10:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
"I don't understand the need to tell who I am supporting or going to vote for, it's private, and I don't think it changes anyone's mind."
Ah, once again, the "Futility of Attempts at Persuasion" view.
To me it seems that one of the potential advantages in an open society where people are free to uncover and share information and debate its implications with one another, is precisely that much factual information that would otherwise not be widely known can become widely known.
But the discussion, debate, or even, heaven forfend, argument about its implications is not for me the dead end inherent exercise in futility or spin that it is for you. I know it's not written down anywhere but to me it seems as though part of the point of having an open society is that as its citizens we are *supposed* to discuss and debate and argue with one another about the implications of what we think we know. If we are unable or unwilling to revise our views on account of learning more, then we are so much the worse off for it.
For some reason you seem to want to draw a circle around the specific case of advocacy for one or another political candidate and treat it as a "private" choice, meanwhile passionately advocating many other points of view.
Who I vote for can, if I want it to be, be a purely private choice. But it need not be. If I think it matters at all which among the candidates wins, and I come to favor one candidate over the others, I don't agree that making a case for that candidate inevitably or inherently amounts either to "spin" or an exercise in futility. I don't think it's that people "need" to share their views. I think it's that they want to and choose to.
I may make a garbage case, unlikely to be persuasive to anyone, including myself upon reflection. I did that myself in a dreadfully awful comment a couple of weeks ago. I said, about Edwards (warning, plot spoiler: I am leaning towards Edwards but have not decided) that I have the feeling he is very sincere and committed in what he says.
This inane remark was no different from the time when Bush told us that he peered into Putin's eyes and could tell he was a good soul. No evidence. No argument. No reasoning. Just gut feeling. In the end that may drive the choices many of our fellow citizens make in deciding for whom to vote.
But I don't rule out the possibility, even the desirability, of deploying our powers of reasoning towards, yes, even and maybe especially this type of choice we make. Even if the number of people who make their decisions based upon more or less reasoned arguments when it comes to voting may be relatively few.
In an open society, there is only potential benefit due to the plethora of sources of information and perspectives that can be surfaced and brought to bear on decisions with societal import. It is only potential benefit because often discussions, debates, arguments about implications occur among and between people who are in a pure advocacy mode. They have made up their minds what they think and in the course of the discussion they are not really listening to the other person with any other thought on their minds other than how they are going to respond in rebuttal, in disagreement. The argument is in such cases all about getting the other person to "see the light", winning them over to one's point of view.
If what you're saying is that much discussion about the merits of particular candidates is long on intangible impressions, gut feelings, and vague, unsupported assertions and short on reasoned arguments, I agree. But at this time, I, for one, am looking for well-reasoned, persuasive arguments on why support one candidate over another.
My father said something once that has stayed with me. He was in a shoe store and both he and the salesperson thought he was set on buying one pair of shoes. The salesperson noted this, saying that showing him other pairs might only confuse the situation. My dad replied "No, no, I want to be confused." I don't remember whether he went with the pair he initially thought he wanted or not. But I did get the impression he felt satisfied he'd made a better decision.
August 27, 2007 4:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
That is what I was saying. And the reason was pointing out that it's difficult to police or edit that sort of thing or separate what's "fair" or "truth" or what's not, or what's quality, or civility about the statements about the candidates, or to apply any kind of standards. Everyone is sort of on equal footing there, everyone's doing spin, as it were. One person's 'dirty trick' or 'propaganda' is another person's truth. People are free to take what they want to hear and shut off what they don't.
The reason I brought it up: on blog threads about the political race, it's no use get all in a knot because one person is paid to do it or another is a volunteer on a campaign or another is a lobbyist or has this or that background or motives and another hasn't made up their mind. It's not at all the same as with the same problem in the "MSM," or with lobbying in Congress, anything you might think prejudiced can be countered. A paid advocate is on equal footing with the unpaid ones.
That I don't find most of that type of thing a very useful or efficient use of my time was just as cite of personal preferences, that's why that part was in parentheses.
To repeat an important point as a aside: what got me thinking about this is cscs past plaints that what goes on in Election Central posts may be a sort of a clashing culture with what goes on elsewhere on this site. No coincidence, I think that it also goes to the heart of any problems resulting from mixing of journalism and political advocacy that someone like Josh Marshall might experience, right down to the complaint by his emailer that the blogosphere should "clean up its act."
August 27, 2007 7:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
Artappraiser:
Thanks for your comments. I don't know if it's immaterial to know who a given poster actually supports. Of course, many of us really can't reveal whom we support until after the nominations, and so commenting on here with such constraints is necessarily limited.
But I do think that it is more important to respond to the ideas and analyses that are expressed by posters than it is to try and figure out whether a given poster, who is generally anonymous anyway, actually believes in what he or she is saying, or is really just some kind of a plant. Unlike the MSM, we are, as I think you write below, capable of responding to the substance of comments (when substance is provided), regardless of whether the man or woman behind the curtain really believes in his or her work product. [On the other hand, recall what the original man behind the curtain was able to do simply by convincing Dorothy in the power of belief--that there was no place like home--and suddenly there she was in Kansas with beloved Auntie Em.]
Bruce
August 27, 2007 9:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
Is there any question that JMM called HRC's thinking on the issue of the politics of a terror attack that of a loser? If I said of this post, we need bloggers who don't think like losers, wouldn't sphealy be correct to feel insulted? JMM's comment comes across to me as defensive ("just because I said she thinks like a loser doesn't mean I think she's a loser") and his posting of an intemperate reply - instead of one of the many temperate ones he surely received pointing out his confusion - as a lame attempt at distracting from that point by playing the victim.
August 26, 2007 10:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
Don't fully understand your comment because the link goes to Kevin Drum, not JMM.
August 26, 2007 10:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
I had the same problem at first. If you click on the first word of the link, JMM, you'll get Josh's comment, though.
August 27, 2007 2:50 AM | Reply | Permalink