Grotesque Propaganda
Following are some excerpts from Facebook.. I have deleted the names.
(From a posted item) Two 11-year-old girls articulate their personal goal to become shahids [people who die for Allah], explaining that "all Palestinian children" see Shahada [death for Allah] - because of its promised grand Afterlife - as more worthwhile than living. ...
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Name deleted at 8:36pm January 5
these people are fucking retards, i'm sorry...
Name deleted at 8:39pm January 5
they are uncivilized neanderthals and they deserve to live in the caves that they were destined to.. sorry for my outburst lol
Name deleted at 8:52pm January 5
wow
Name deleted at 10:17pm January 5
the smartest thing i head in hears.... you know what it is?.. these "children are not childrenthey are little warriors.". thats why ISRAEL SHOULD NOT THINK OF THEM AS KILLING CHILDREN WHEN THEY THROW ROCKS AT THE SOLDIERS.. BUT OF KILLING LITTLE WARRIORS WHO WILL GROW UP TO BE BIG TERRORISTS!
Name deleted at 11:35pm January 5
soooooo truee ^^^^
(From a posted item) Two 11-year-old girls articulate their personal goal to become shahids [people who die for Allah], explaining that "all Palestinian children" see Shahada [death for Allah] - because of its promised grand Afterlife - as more worthwhile than living. ...
Add Comment - 6 Comments - Share
Name deleted at 8:36pm January 5
these people are fucking retards, i'm sorry...
Name deleted at 8:39pm January 5
they are uncivilized neanderthals and they deserve to live in the caves that they were destined to.. sorry for my outburst lol
Name deleted at 8:52pm January 5
wow
Name deleted at 10:17pm January 5
the smartest thing i head in hears.... you know what it is?.. these "children are not childrenthey are little warriors.". thats why ISRAEL SHOULD NOT THINK OF THEM AS KILLING CHILDREN WHEN THEY THROW ROCKS AT THE SOLDIERS.. BUT OF KILLING LITTLE WARRIORS WHO WILL GROW UP TO BE BIG TERRORISTS!
Name deleted at 11:35pm January 5
soooooo truee ^^^^
Advertisement
Imagine there's no heaven
it's easy if you try
no hell below us
above us only sky
What if God was one of us?
Just a slob like one of us?
Just a stranger on the bus
tryin' to make his way home
like a holy rollin' stone
I pray for the day
that a child in a hurting country
(like there aren't any non-hurting countries these days)
will know love and peace and understanding and not war
I pray for the day
that a child anywhere, will know naught but
love, peace, and understanding
It had better come soon.
Thank you, Marquis Marq.
January 6, 2009 5:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, the appropriate line here would be:
Imagine no religion.
I wonder if you can?
January 6, 2009 10:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, man...
It just leaves me speechless
January 6, 2009 5:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
How anyone can react to that with anything other than abject sadness is beyond me.
January 6, 2009 6:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
Why? Issues involving reward in the afterlife have been used since the beginning of time to control human populations. Including the myths of Heaven spread by Christianity.
January 6, 2009 7:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dude. Think.
January 6, 2009 10:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's so frustrating, after reading this, that about the only thing I can do is shake my head in disbelief and horror. Those two 11 year olds have their minds set. The 6 commenters also have their minds set. Why is self-inflicted violence or pre-emptive violence the only solution they can see?
January 6, 2009 9:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
Those two 11 year olds
Be careful...On the internet, no one knows you're a dog....
The two eleven year olds and the six commenters could all be Linda Tripp...
January 6, 2009 2:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hell, all babies will grow up to be drivers that piss me off on the road. Kill them all!
Seriously.. these comments are made by the same kind of people who think that we should just unleash tons of bombs and turn most of the Middle East to glass.
January 6, 2009 10:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with all of the moral outrage expressed above related to the feelings people have about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and little girls growing up to be terrorists in particular.
That said.
If we want there to be peace in the Middle East, eventually somebody is going to have to, you know...
WIN.
I mean, can't we agree by now that these people can't coexist peacefully? And that even if they could, they wouldn't want to (and if we want them to be democratic and self-determining, they'd rather fight)?
I'm with Pontius Pilate. Wash your hands, get the blood you've already got on them off, and have no more to do with it.
January 6, 2009 12:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's doesn't have to be a zero-sum solution. Because that's never really a solution. Just more fodder for the next round.
Win-Win is the only way.
January 6, 2009 1:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, think of it this way. In the eighteenth century, there was a new nation established in North America. In order to expand, in the nineteenth century it progressively wiped out most of the indigenous population. Eventually, those who remained integrated into the larger culture, apart from a few throwbacks who were cordoned off on "reserved" land.
Doesn't sound like a win win solution to me at all. But what a great solution! The United States has been very successful since then.
I suspect that the pro-Israel types leading the media charge on Gaza envision a similar solution. And with enough force and killing, it would work.
I haven't the stomach for that sort of killing (by either side). But I really don't think anyone has any interest, let alone plan, for a win win solution. If a stable nation results, what business is it of ours how it's brought about?
After all, we would have been mighty annoyed if Britain had gotten involved at Little Big Horn.
January 6, 2009 3:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
We differ in our views. But I can see where you're coming from.
January 6, 2009 3:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
We cannot change the past and there are too many of us to just ship off to ... where? and give the land back. So your analogy with 19th Century US is totally irrelevant. The condition remains that we in the US are fueling this massacre with our money and weapons, so we stand as responsible as NAME DELETED at 10:17 pm, who admires the murder of children.
January 6, 2009 6:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
You misunderstand, Marquis.
I'm not condoning the acts, nor even condoning our support of Israel. As I've said before, we ought to let them lose, so the conflict will be resolved.
My point is that a negotiated solution is not reasonably possible, and a non-negotiated solution means finding a winner.
Whoever that might be, and at whatever cost.
January 6, 2009 7:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
I can tell you've never visited a reservation.
January 6, 2009 7:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Spot on! Just yesterday we were talking about the "rules of war" as if there really is such a thing.
In my experience, Americans are no more greedy, obnoxious, etc. than Europeans (despite the stereotype that likes to be promoted abroad and here). But the one thing they are is less introspective.
There are so many "received truths" that people here in the US just accept -- and given that their bellies are full and they sleep in relative security, there is no excuse for that type of mindless acceptance.
January 6, 2009 7:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
State schools systems and religious school systems are propaganda networks. They always were and they always will be. During the formative years those networks can be used for good or ill.
I do not have an answer to this.
Teaching children to throw rocks, to become killers.
I am at a loss.
January 6, 2009 2:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Modern warfare is being shaped by modern media. Back in the old days, you destroyed your enemy, then rewrote history. That is how you win a war! But now, there are all those silly cameras capturing human suffering and all the ugliness that war really is. We just don't have the stomachs for genocide anymore. Might as well get rid of war altogether since its effectively becoming obsolete.
January 6, 2009 5:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
I dunno... sounds like a typical conversation from the TPM boards:
You ASSHAT!
No, You contribute nothing!
etc
etc.
But let's take on the real propaganda machine: religion. Get'em young, tell'em a fairy tale, and keep'em under control.
Don't believe me? How many people here would give up the religious holiday on Dec 25? If it's not about religion for you, we can simply move it to the solstice on Dec 21 -- or better still the solstice on Jun 21.
See? Few really want to analyze their assumed reality. For you were gotten young as well.
January 6, 2009 7:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm fine with moving it to winter solstice, but definitely not June. I mean, it's hard enough to get snow in late December as is. ;)
January 6, 2009 7:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, I was trying to be egalitarian for our friends down under... ;-)
January 6, 2009 8:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
What are the two biggest complaints about "the Holidays"? No snow, and Christmas and Thanksgiving are too close together. Also, we have *nothing* in the beginning of the year. So if we were resetting the calendar, wouldn't it make more sense to shift the Christmas holiday to late January? (Though I'm not sure what the implied issue with Dec 25th is -- wasn't it selected to coincide with solstice celebrations so that Christianity would be more familiar and easily adopted by so-called heathens?)
The real issue with moving Christmas, or Thanksgiving, or July 4th, or Halloween, of course, is all the cultural structure that's been built up around them. It would be a serious effort to re-adjust calendars, and convince people that there was any value in the change -- on par with trying to tell the French to move their vacations from August to October. Point is, tradition has significant weight, and it's not -- necessarily -- due to religiosity.
January 6, 2009 10:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, Paige, Christmas -- no matter what an "enlightened" person wants to say is a religious holiday.
If you want an example of a secular Holiday, it's Thanksgiving. And Thanksgiving is different than Christmas.
I've spent Thanksgiving with Indians (Natives). That was interesting.
January 6, 2009 10:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
PS: Many Fed holiday move all the time: President's Day, MLK day, Labor Day, etc.
It's really quite easy to do.
January 6, 2009 10:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Easter.
D'oh
January 6, 2009 10:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Another excellent example. More proof it would be easy to move a 'traditional' celebration a mere 4 days and have it truly be a nonreligious holiday.
Thanks, worker!
January 6, 2009 11:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
No problem, Lord Proprietor.
Same sh*t, different day.
January 7, 2009 12:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, no, worker. Today is different. You keep agreeing with me and bolstering my point. And I thank you for doing so.
January 7, 2009 3:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
No I researched this a long time ago. If you look at the actual time you will see that although the sun is rising earlier after the 21 or 22nd which is a definition of Solstice; you will find that the sun sets later on the 25th. Now the calendars have changed so much over thousands of years due to the 365 1/4 days....but the 25th still works kind of.
Besides, this is all Constantine's work anyway. He just took a local Sun God's birthday and made it Christ's.
Have I bored you enough. I would probably have to research this all over again, the paper is lost.
But I think I am right on this.
It is a sun renewal celebration.
We go to church on Sunday.
We say Amen (An Egyptian Sun God) after every prayer.
We worship the Sun of God.(pun or homonym)
Moses came out of Egypt. And Jesus and Mary and Joseph had to go into Egypt and come out of Egypt.
It is really a fun thing to follow this trail.
But there is an affect to religion. An emotional component that must be dealt with and philosophy does not work on a societal level. It never will.
Trees and presents have nothing to do with Christianity. Not until about 150 years ago.
Saints are just redressed gods from an ancient era and all apply to a locality.
Angels are just gods.
That is enough. I love to bore people.
January 7, 2009 12:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
DD: Surely you jest!
Just a for instance:
Excuse me? Christmas trees aren't part of the holiday until about 1860? Really? Want to rephrase that?
I can't tell your point. I think you want to make some claim that Christmas isn't a religious holiday. Let's start with the name:
Christmas = Christ's Mass
Oops! I guess it is a religious holiday.
We can agree that Dec 25 wasn't Jesus's birthday, but that doesn't make Christmas a secular holiday.
I suppose if you really wanted to be a smart ass you could talk Julian vs Gregorian calendar. And point out that England converted over at a different time than Europe. But you didn't.
Either way, if you really want to secularize things in the US, we should abolish Christmas as a legal holiday and create the Solstice as our secular winter holiday. Christians can go to Mass on the 25th as one of their personal floating holiday.
January 7, 2009 3:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
I have heard it said that peace will come to the middle east when Israelies amd Palestinians learn to love their children more than they hate each other.
January 6, 2009 8:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
There has never been peace in the middle east for 5000 years! This is much more than an Israeli-Palestinian issue.
It's what happens when you have to sit out in the hot sun all day. Compare, for example, Western Religious thought -- all of which sprang from the desert sun -- to Eastern Thought, not born in the desert.
January 6, 2009 8:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Agreed. Perhaps peace will come shortly after the next ice age begins.
January 6, 2009 8:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
And you have the nerve to suggest that others are unable to examine their assumptions. Wow.
January 6, 2009 9:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Care to engage me in something specific, Marquis?
January 6, 2009 9:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
With your excellent introspection, I am sure you can see what I mean. I am sure everyone else can.
January 6, 2009 9:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Me? I'm just hangin' with my fellow mellow cool-thinkers, 000's of miles from that hot, hot sun that might otherwise make us violent. Interestingly, some of 'em are from Asia! You may know a few of 'em, Marquis?
Mao.
Pol Pot.
Genghis Khan.
Even got a coupla Japanese Emperors, some Tamil Tigers, and a Hindu mob!!
Heck of a party. Though they're snickering about something they just read on TPM. Donno what that's about, but I don't like the looks of it.
January 6, 2009 11:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
*wan smile*
January 7, 2009 12:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
Quinn,
Last I checked, none of those folks founded any particular sense of deep philosophy.
The fact is that the West, by an large, came to a notion of confronting nature (the angry "God") and the east of a more organic harmony.
How many religious wars were started by Taoists (for example)? How many by Jews? Christians? Muslims?
Yeah, I thought so.
But as I maintained, the religious propaganda machine works very well.
January 7, 2009 12:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ya, whatever.
January 7, 2009 12:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
My favorite chicken... and wasn't the Bhagavad Ghita a description Lord Krishna's conversations during the battle on the plains of Kurukshetra?
January 7, 2009 12:23 AM | Reply | Permalink
I didn't get that far. The pretty pictures distracted me.
January 7, 2009 12:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
;)
January 7, 2009 12:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
CT.
Bollocks.
You said something downright stupid, and indeed, fairly offensive, and then you skittered away. You linked war to "Eastern Thought" (not produced in deserts.) I gave you a range of examples of war-loving Easterners who presumably thought a range of Eastern thoughts.
Now you shift to them having to have "founded" a deep philosophy. Slip-slidin' away....
Then you went to one of your patented "The fact is" statements, even though it was not a "fact," and certainly not in any recognizable scientific sense of the term.
Then you made your play for the Taoists (nice move, I liked that, bring on the Tzu!)... and ignored all the other Eastern nations, faiths and philosophies I listed.
Then you get to conclude with an insult, linking my comment to the "religious propanganda machine." So hey! Thanks very much! Another stimulating debate with Clearthinker!
So.... you continue to maintain your status as the #1 fundamentalist thinker at TPM, though sadly, like all fundis, you can't see it.
Have a day, dude.
January 7, 2009 2:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
Uh, no, Quinn, I didn't link "war to Eastern thought" -- you were the one that did that. For what reasons I have no idea.
May I suggest you try reading my posts before you react to them? This is the second time today.
There are definite, known, and acknowledged differences between Eastern and Western philosophies. The most obvious being the cyclic nature of Eastern and the linear nature of Western. There are others, including the notion that the individual is part of the the flow of things in the East while he is outside the flow of things in the West.
My point was simply this: sit around in the harshness of the desert and you get the notion that you must fight nature, scratch at it to survive. These observations are hardly original with me... despite your attacking me personally for pointing them out.
Then you list political leaders as religious leaders -- and are upset I didn't comment on your completely irrelevant and tangential discussion! Well, sure, political leaders try to co-opt the notion of "God" to control people with religion -- but I was talking about real philosophy not politics. Someone trying to co-opt "God" for justification doesn't make them a religious leader or philosophy. Or did you just sleep walk through the GWB years? You'll note I didn't bring up Henry VIII, for example.
If you want to discuss I topic I bring up and expect me to engage you, please try to stay on topic. And breathe a bit before engaging your keyboard. It will help that sinus condition.
January 7, 2009 3:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
Um, YES, CT you DID link "war to Eastern thought." Unless you're incapable of understanding your own comment. Which read:
1. "There has never been PEACE in the middle east for 5000 years!" (Peace having - at least in our lesser minds - at least some vague connection to war. and the post itself being, in fact, about war.)
2. You then said, And I'll quote it again, "IT'S WHAT HAPPENS when you have to sit out in the hot sun all day." (Phrases like "It's what happens" serving to connect one thing to another, at least in the English language.)
3. And you concluded with, "Eastern Thought, not born in the desert."
I'd say that's a pretty damned tight set of connections. So please save the pompous "please try reading my posts before you comment" replies.
As for the rest of your Religious Studies 101 commentary, do you REALLY think Eastern & Western philosophies - seen in anything deeper than a Readers Digest version - offer up such a complete split between cyclical & linear, or in the flow & outside it? Because I know a lot of theologians & ministers who'd be ever so pleased if their jobs could be that radically simplified.
And are you really enraptured by the idea that deserts are the only harsh environment? Been North much? Mountains? Jungles?
Then you add some new maneuver whereby your relatively straightforward "Eastern Thought" is contorted into "Eastern Thoughts, but only as held in the minds of select Religious Leaders?" If so, it's a sad little rearguard action, because surely the religious notions of the East (the great Thoughts and all), at least minimally seeped into the minds not just of the Political Leaders, but also their followers? Or can you now entirely distill George Bush's worldview out from that of American Protestant Christianity? If so, please do patent this intellectual technology.
Also, if I could ask a favor, please DO keep talking down to me. I mean, I've been studying up on arrogance, in heavy training, for YEARS... and dude, you are DOMINATIN' the field. I bow at the feet of the Master.
P.S. Gotta go to bed now. Perhaps someone else'll come on, and you can thrash them for having grandkids or fertility treatment or coming from a Western religion or something. Nighty-night.
January 7, 2009 4:14 AM | Reply | Permalink