How Long Do You Wait for an Appointment with Your Own Doctor?
Originally, this was a reply to jdl51 in Jesse Lava's excellent post, GOP: Obama's health care plan would be too effective, until I realized it would scroll off in half an hour.
jdl51 had asked, But what about the republican argument that government run healthcare won't work, long waits for treatment, crappy service, etc.?
I go back and forth between a large metro area, Atlanta, and a medium metro area, Palm Beach County.
In both areas, trying to get appointments with most Doctors requires a 1-2 month wait, and that's when you're already a patient. It's much longer if you're not.
I called my mother's neuro doc today cause she's been having vague symptoms. Not enough for an emergency, but enough to want an appointment sooner than her regularly scheduled one on April 24. Turns out, April 24 was better than anything they could offer, which was the end of May, although she did make the list if someone cancels. Not at the top, but she's on the list.
She has 4 docs she sees for various body parts and each one has the same waiting times. I've heard that the waits are (much?) shorter in Canada and Britain.
Republicans must live in a one horse, 10 doctor town if they think we'll be worse off, that's all I can say. What is it like in the rest of the country where you all live? Waiting minds get curious!
















Excellent shining of the light on the fallacy of how great our healthcare availability is SS. I'm personal friends with my GP and it generally takes me 2 to 3 weeks lead time before I get into see her, sometimes more, unless I play the 'personal friend' card. By the time the appointment arrives, I've either got full blown pneumonia or I've recovered. on my own. In my case with some extenuating health issues, it's usually full blown pneumonia.
March 6, 2009 5:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, I can see one of her partners sooner, usually within a few days, and I do in emergencies, however I happen to believe in the advantage of seeing a single practitioner who's familiar with my medical and personal history.
March 6, 2009 6:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
miguelito, I have found a 2004 article that rates 5 countries, the US, UK, Canada, Australia and New Zealand on primary care and ambulatory experiences. With the exception of the US, the other 4 countries have some form of national health care.
But to address your last comment, the article takes as a given that a usual, long-term relationship with a primary care doc is critical.
In this the UK comes in first place, the US last.
This is a journal article not available on the web without university type access. The citation is:
Cathy Schoen, Robin Osborn, Phuong Trang Huynh, Michelle Doty, et al. (2004). Primary Care And Health System Performance: Adults' Experiences In Five Countries. Health Affairs: WEB EXCLUSIVES, 23, 487-503. Retrieved September 28, 2007, from ABI/INFORM Global database. (Document ID: 818930171).
March 6, 2009 6:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
And the way health insurance has been structured here, the chance of a long term relationship with a primary care doc is interfered with right and left. The whole system leads to shifting plans year after year. Bad for the patient. And a nightmare for the doctors!
March 6, 2009 8:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Seashell, once again you are getting to a core issue that is glossed over simply because health is such a complicated issue. I am in a one horse town with ten doctors though. 24 hours is about as long a wait as there is. Neurological is a little longer.
Therapist is once a month.
Good, good post. I hope it gets a lot of action because I would like to see what it is like for others.
March 6, 2009 5:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks, dd. I think we're getting our action! And I'm glad for you that doctors outnumber the horses where you live!
March 6, 2009 6:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Also.
March 7, 2009 12:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
We live 5 minutes from a medical center and medical college. For normal visits at our doctor's office we may be able to get in the same week - more likely if you're willing to see a nurse practicioner or different on-call doc. But usually within a couple of weeks, if not the same week, we can see our internist. For specialists it can be a wait of months, especially for a first appointment and depending on the specialty.
Nevertheless, I would gladly wait, if that were necessary, to be sure that everyone had a chance for medical care. There is no way that in conscience I could seek to wait less while others wait in vain.
Thanks for this blog, seashell.
March 6, 2009 6:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
P.S. I deliberately linked to Jesse's blog from mine, this morning, to make sure his did not completely disappear.
March 6, 2009 6:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
P.P.S. I've linked to your blog as well. We have a veritable cornucopia of health care blogs up right now. And it couldn't be happening at a better time!
Here's mine: http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/therap/2009/03/the-fallacy-of-republican-heal.php
March 6, 2009 6:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
You keep this up Thera P, and even Obama's scaled down Blackberry will find a link to one of us!
I live about 8 minutes from Emory Univ Hospital, 6 from DeKalb Med Center and maybe 10 minutes from Grady. Ambulances sometimes run in circles because 1 or 2 of these have routed them away from their overflowing ERs.
March 6, 2009 6:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
From your description you are also near Wesley Woods Outpatient Clinic (part of Emory Healthcare). There is an excellent geriatrician working there -- if she hasn't burned out since 1999.
March 6, 2009 11:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Emma! I've been trying to reach you, evidently not successfully. Can you try from your end, please?
Oh, and yes, I am near Wesley Woods. Thanks for the link.
March 7, 2009 12:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
You're going to hate this...
I live in the UK. My doctor's appointments are almost always same-day. The surgery (office) we use has a same-day appointment only policy (with certain exceptions) to limit the number of no-shows. So if I call at 9am tomorrow I could be sitting in the waiting room at 9:30.
Seeing a specialist requires a referral from the GP and could take anywhere from a day in a serious, acute situation, to a couple of months for a long-standing chronic condition.
Yes, socialised medicine is just terrible! /snark
March 6, 2009 6:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, I don't hate it. I love it. Another Republican talking point making that lovely flush sound.
And, according to the article I referenced above in another comment, the UK does have the best access times, along with Australia and NZ, with Canada in 4th position, but improving and the US in last place and still sliding.
March 6, 2009 6:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am with Seashell on that one. We need testimony from you people. Thank you. On behalf of Seashell and me and TPMC
March 6, 2009 7:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have a ton of articles and studies from the World Health Organization and medical journals from throughout the world that compare the health infrastructure and system in the U.S. to other industrialized countries - it is amazing how far behind in quality, access and financing care we are. In the U.S. we spend a higher percentage of GDP (16.2%) compared to any other country in the world, and still have 45 million people uninsured, rising costs, and lower health outcomes. I love when I have statistical data that proves government involvement with health care and medicine works.
May 5, 2009 12:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
I have Kaiser in Oakland, CA. I can see a doctor immediately if it is determined that there is an emergency; other appointments take longer. It depends on the interaction between the caller and the nurse on duty and/or the e-mail communication with your doc! Yes! E-mail the doc! Mine responds to me in hours, usually to tell me to exercise more. Seriously, when I had some indication of a possible heart issue, he scheduled a stress test on the basis of what I told him, in 24 hours. Negative!
March 6, 2009 6:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
From what I've been reading, Kaiser has been taking the lead in advocating for reform. They have put together an impressive web site with lots of info and research that is made available to anyone freely.
Now go exercise!
March 6, 2009 7:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Puff-puff. Will do. I'm an advocate of the Kaiser model. Your coverage is the charge for membership in the organization and the doctors have the final say in care, more or less. They operate within the Kaiser standard of care guidelines, but you can push beyond them. Point is, there's no battle between doc and insurer. Another doc told me he came to Kaiser to avoid having a stroke arguing with 12-year-olds about accepting a treatment.
Thanks for this post and discussion. Very nice.
Jason
March 7, 2009 2:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here (Canada) inside a week for a GP.
Had major life-threatening emergency a year ago, immediate treatment, 4 days in hospital, endless tests etc. - no cost. Walked out.
Booking specialists is harder, depending on the condition. 2-4 months for mine - none serious, pretty much just wanted an additional opinion on a couple of things.
So, not perfect... but waiting times are going down steadily, now that they're focussing on it.
March 6, 2009 7:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
I remember reading about the focus and effort Canada was putting into the access and timeliness part of good healthcare.
But it strikes me quinn, that it sounds like your longer wait times are for specialists and procedures, while primary care is relatively speedy. Both of my regions have long wait times for all of the above, except emergencies.
Back to my mother again. She and her orthopedic surgeon decided in the middle of August 2008 that she needed surgery. The first available slot was December 1.
March 7, 2009 2:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
That could be because we have fewer general practitioners and in other countries, like Canada, they value preventative medicine and primary care. In the U.S., we focus on curing a disease or injury, not preventing it so much.
May 5, 2009 1:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
In our rural community there is no doctor, dentist, optomologist (even optometrist) and no pharmacy. We have to either fly or ferry over 100 miles to get to doctor/hospital. It costs $25k for medicflight for emergenies.
Ironically, with grants to subsidize half of cost, we are now building a $9 million dollar clinic with part time (very part time) medical professionals as noted above.
We do have Physician assistants and Nurss Practioners (2 ea.) but they are borderline for anything other than minor ailments and flu shots, blood pressure checks, etc.
Also, the rates for services is off the charts. To spend less than 15 minutes with the NP or PA's costs a minimum of $123.00. Usually can't get out of there for less than $300.
Many here do not have health insurance. I can no longer afford premiums (self-employed). So, adequate health care legislation is most likely even more important for rural areas if only for base services.
March 6, 2009 7:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Part of national health care should include rural clinics. And at the very least, with govt ultimately providing educational assistance, there could be agreements for new docs to spend several years at a rural outpost. In Canada, for example, everywhere you go, even very hard to reach areas, there are clinics. Not everywhere are there hospitals, but signs on all roads tell you where to find clinics. We have a cruel system. It is simply reprehensible that there is no medical care, no subsidized care. For goodness sakes, your state could provide that with all its extra money. Not that I'm blaming you. I'll blame your governor!
March 6, 2009 9:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow. Just wow, Aunt Sam. Obama called for $10b in his stimulus plan for Health IT and the FCC has a pilot program for Rural Health Care that involves broadband telehealth networks.
Included in the list of selected participants:
Have you ever heard of this?
March 7, 2009 12:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, but it doesn't impact us. While there is an excellent 'Tribal' medical operation umbrella, our clinic's board chose their competitor (complicated rationale).
Until the last few years we were able to go to Yukon, Canada (100 mile drive) for healthcare (and I have to say it was excellent) - but now that is no longer an option (except emergencies when there is no plane or ferry and then they medicflight out to US after stabalized, et al.) We can no longer get prescriptions filled there either.
While I would love to dump this on Palin, the fact is it's our communities lack of competent leadership and business acumen enjoined with political malfeasance that is the real culprit.
March 7, 2009 11:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
Aunt Sam, isn't the US Congress the reason you can't at least get your drugs from Canada, or is it a local issue?
March 7, 2009 4:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Aunt Sam, if you're self-employed, your health insurance premiums may be tax deductible. You should look into it if you haven't already.
March 7, 2009 2:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Definitely! There's a place on the 1040, near where you place social security portion and retirement contribution, for health insurance costs.
March 7, 2009 2:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
I live in a small town in kansas and I can ussually get in to see a doctor the next day two at the latest. Now my son who is diabetic has to go to wichita a lot and it can take up to three or four weeks to get an appointment.
March 6, 2009 7:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm beginning to realize that rural healthcare (much beloved by a certain political party) usually involves 1 horse, 10 doctors and 0 specialists. Which is not handy for the goodly number of people that usually need one, like your son.
March 7, 2009 5:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
Rural area. For an appointment to monitor one or more of my 4 pre-existing conditions it's about a 2 week wait. For immediate needs, usually I can get in the same day. Quite often it will be with a physician's assistant or nurse practitioner. If my ailment is serious enough, they will run and get the 'big doc' so I consider myself well looked after.
Specialists are virtually non-existent in this middle of nowhere where I live. The ones we do have are imported from the larger cities 50+ miles away. A days worth of appointments are set up ahead of time and then a specialist will drive to the area and 'take over' consulting rooms for that day and see patients then. Sometimes if your GP determines that your condition warrants seeing a specialist asap, an appointment is made for you from the GP's office. Depending on the severity of need, you can be seeing a specialist the next day....after you drive the 50+ miles to their offices.
We also have rural clinics here. After hour walk-in. Costs are the same as regular doctor office hours and way cheaper than emergency room visits.
Here's another butt pain for republicans: My Auzzie friends doctor actually makes housecalls.
March 6, 2009 7:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
They still do that in places in Spain as well.
March 6, 2009 9:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
You sound somewhere in the middle of dickday and me, flower, in terms of ease and timeliness of access. But you beat both of us when it involves more than primary medicine.
Both of my regions also have walk-in 'Doc in a Box' clinics. They are cheaper than the ERs, but I think are probably $30-40 more expensive than a regular doctor per visit. However, they do not and cannot take the place of the continuity and quality of care received from primary physicians, so they fail in that aspect of good healthcare.
March 7, 2009 1:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
My mother's primary care doctor is in a hospital-run neighborhood clinic (with a pharmacy and an urgent care facility) about three blocks away... about 5 minute walk. On average, it is about 3 to 4 weeks for a non-urgent appointment. Her other physicians are located in a hospital tower downtown. Average time for an "off-schedule," non-emergency appointment? about 6 weeks.
Once you are actually at the doc's office -- and although the hospital tries to limit wait times to 15 minutes from when your appointment is scheduled -- it's about 45 minutes from scheduled appointment time to when you see the doctor. Average time with the doctor less than 10 minutes.
All of Mom's doc's are affiliated/employed by the hospital's practice as are all of the auxiliary services including the pharmacy and opticians. At EVERY appointment for EVERY doctor, she is asked to provide a list of her meds. Amazing since the doctors writing the scripts are dealing with an in-house pharmacy and they can't (or won't) pull up the info on the computers they use to compile their medical notes. And for every visit, they send someone down to med records to pull her file and bring up the paper version of her history. You can't do simple things like use email to ask questions, make or confirm appointments, lab visits or other tasks.
For many elderly patients, the hassle of getting to the doctor, feeling rushed through your appointment means critical symptoms can be overlooked. They feel they shouldn't "bother" the doctor anymore than their "allotted" time.
March 6, 2009 7:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
There is a crying need for gerontologists. And the manner of interacting with the elderly is very different. You need to focus on what a person can do or would like to do, daily activities and so on. You can't rush an elderly person. I know they do - but they shouldn't. And the gerontologists know that.
March 6, 2009 9:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes! Although you don't say where your Mom lives, Jade, your description almost exactly sums up the common thread running through our stories in the US: we do not have patient-centered healthcare in this country. And no matter what those jack-ass Republicans spout, a market-oriented model that relies on competition will not (ever) get us healthcare that focuses on the patient rather than the payer!
And another point:
In the article referenced earlier, the authors say that from a policy perspective, investments in health IT tend to pay off in a big way. Separately, the Commonwealth Fund conducted a survey of 7 countries (the US was second from the bottom) and found:
Of course, that's happening in other countries. Not here.
Thank you.
March 7, 2009 5:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
"At EVERY appointment for EVERY doctor, she is asked to provide a list of her meds." - Jade
Yes, that is actually a requirement by JCAHO (aka the Government0, every patient has to have a "medication reconciliation" at every appointment, and have a new med list provided to them. I just heard this week they are no longer making that a requirement, so hopefully you will no longer have to deal with that.
March 7, 2009 4:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Who goes to doctors?
March 6, 2009 9:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
sick people.
You should book a visit.
March 7, 2009 12:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Probably best to book a round-trip visit, hey, wot? :-)
March 7, 2009 2:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
I like the round trip Mr. Dog. All blessings on public transportation. The library is in that part of town. More blessings. A fine meal to be had from the dollar menu at the eatery of that thuggish McDonald Clan. Blessings on them all, say I. But no. Can't quite conjure up a blessing for a McDonald.
March 7, 2009 8:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Might I interpret this as a "sick joke?" Charming indeed, Mr. Rooster. Skipping the doctor these days is a matter of the wallet, not of the heart.
March 7, 2009 8:12 AM | Reply | Permalink
Portland, Oregon - We have Kaiser, and as noted before, they are there for emergencies and urgent care. Urgent care can be a four to six hour wait, same day (super crowded), but if you go to the ER, the people are usually very very very sick and depending on your illness it can take a lot of time (not good when you are so sick). My partner had heart problems and after waiting several hours! got seen. If you try to make a regular appt. with your primary care doctor or a dentist, the wait is 2 to 3 months.
BUT Kaiser’s email system is excellent at the moment. We always use it now because you can speak directly with your doctor to describe symptoms and s/he will order tests (walk-in, very short wait) or prescribe antibiotics etc. same day or next. All your records are online and encrypted. This system works well for us for the flu or minor illness, but sometimes I wonder if all the bases get covered – I doubt it. Plus, many people don’t use or own computers so they have to go the long wait to the doctor. I also can’t imagine our doctor being able to keep up if everyone had email - already overloaded with patients. But phone waits take forever to speak with an Advice nurse. However, because of the email system, Kaiser works better for us than most HMO’s we have PURCHE$ED for non-emergency care. We can make appointments online, look at our medical history, find resources etc. They also have a mail-order pharmacy for ongoing meds. It’s a pretty good model in some ways, terrible in others. I vote for single-payer universal health care now, please. We are lucky to be covered at the moment, but so many others have none - and they NEED it.
March 7, 2009 1:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
strato, I think you are one of a small number of people (relatively speaking) that have the only, or one of the only, well run (again, relative) healthcare organizations in the United States.
I have really been impressed with Kaiser's commitment to reform and the amount of resources they have contributed to the movement.
But, in the end, the only system where everyone has access is single payer. And you just re-affirmed that. Thanks.
March 7, 2009 5:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
Our experience in a moderately large Midwestern city seems to have been better than those described above. Our family's medical practice is quite good at getting us in the same or next day if we are really having a problem. Our physician is very willing to return a phone call, ask some basic questions, and determine if we should need to be seen or not. Scheduling appointments for routine stuff, such as a yearly physical, is different and we expect to have to wait weeks (sometimes many weeks).
I will say, though, that when I am seen the same or next day for a problem, my doctor is often moving pretty fast. He never fails to really talk to me and get to the bottom of the problem, but I can see that sometimes he's run off his feet. And that is the flip side of the whole health-care issue - from the M.D. point of view. There are so many dedicated and conscientious doctors who struggle every day to do their best and often burn out. And they know as well as the patients do how unsupportable the entire system has become.
But our family physician's office is just one medical practice among many in this city, which is home to a huge, world-class medical center. I've had dreadful experiences with the gatekeepers at some specialist practices.
We have been fortunate that our health insurer covered my husband's cancer surgery and subsequent chemotherapy with nary a peep, and also covered treatment for a serious illness of my own last summer. There's been no sign that they intend to drop us. But the monthly premium went up substantially at renewal time in December, and it's getting to be a hardship. My husband is self-employed, and we aren't getting any younger. I can easily foresee a time when we won't be able to afford insurance at all.
March 7, 2009 9:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for commenting. It's nice to know that there are people getting adequate to good treatment because it shows that such a goal is indeed possible.
March 7, 2009 4:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
The World Health Organization rates the United States 37th in quality of health care. That's shameful. Absolutely shameful. We can do FAR better than this.
March 7, 2009 10:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
PS: My father-in-law passed away a couple of weeks ago. He spent months in the hospital before he died. I am quite certain no one in the family would be able to tell you the name of his primary physician. Because he didn't have one. We were tossed around like a Frisbee, and the quality of his care suffered as a result. The only time he got decent care was when we took him home and cared for him ourselves. When I get old and sick, I plan to drive myself somewhere far away from civilization and wait for the wolves to finish me off. I refuse to go through what my father-in-law endured.
March 7, 2009 10:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
I worked hard a few years back, speaking out at 4 public meetings (2 city, 2 county), to make sure the Hospice planned for our neighborhood actually got built.
It comforts me to think that I can die in my neighborhood. In a beautiful setting. With compassionate care.
March 7, 2009 11:29 AM | Reply | Permalink
My father-in-law's hospice care was fine. Excellent, actually. What sucked was his medical care. And part of the reason it sucked was because he had a hospice person, a hospice nurse/supervisor, a regular nurse, a doctor, another doctor, etc., etc. There were just too many people involved, and the communication between the various parties was indirect and inefficient. The hospice people can't prescribe or unprescribe medications, so everyone needs to check with one of the doctors (who can rarely be located) in order to get anything done. It was a huge mess. He had pneumonia (a complication of COPD) and one of the doctors prescribed morphine to help with his breathing. And the morphine made him hallucinate. But when I told the doctors that, they didn't believe me, and instead of taking him off the morphine, they put him on an anti-anxiety drug. He went through three days of hell, nearly catatonic and unable to speak clearly enough to be understood before they finally listened to me and took him off the CRAP they had him on. He wasn't suffering from anxiety--he was terrified because the morphine was making him hallucinate that he was being attacked by vines and birds and snakes, and the anti-anxiety drug just paralyzed him so he couldn't talk. I wanted to beat his doctor up for being a frikking idiot. Hospice care is supposed to IMPROVE the quality of life for people who are dying. But if the medical professionals don't care what's going on, the hospice people can't do their job.
When I was a kid, my doctor (my only doctor) came out to the house when I was sick. He knew me, and I knew him and he had a personal stake in my well-being. Not so today. The whole thing is a huge mess, designed to maximize profits and minimize patient interaction.
March 7, 2009 12:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm so sorry that you and he had to go through that. There are specialized docs who should be doing that kind of work: Palliative care. The medical college near us trains people in that specialty. They have such specialists for children as well as for adults.
It is an agonizing thing to watch someone die. If it happens in the absence of compassion and dignity, it's enough to turn a pacifist homicidal!
Good to see you back! And my condolences for your loss.
March 7, 2009 12:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
He had a palliative care specialist. She saw him once when he was in the hospital and from then on, prescribed medication without once speaking to him or seeing him in person. The care he received from her sucked, but lousy care is currently designed into the system. There was no single person who was in charge. It was just a team of people who, I'm sure, meant well, but in the end it was a disorganized mess.
March 7, 2009 12:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
PS: If I ever get that sick, they can just give me the whole month's dose of morphine all at once, as far as I'm concerned. I'm guessing my demise won't happen that way, though. The last time I needed medical care, I was in the desert, fifty miles from the nearest town. I broke my ankle, and I spent two weeks out there with an ankle the size of a softball--all purple and black and yellow. Frankly, I don't think I missed out on much by not seeing a doctor. I'm hoping I'll be in a similar situation when I'm old. I'd like to think I'll just wander off a cliff or someday. Something more dignified than dying in a hospital or a care facility.
March 7, 2009 12:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Despite the troubles your father was lucky indeed to have a loving family to care for him and about him at the end of his life. I'm not sure that most folks getting on in years have such love in their future.
March 7, 2009 2:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Very few elderly parents have children who are in a position to care for them. Being self-employed, it was possible for my wife and I to rearrange our schedules to accommodate caring for her father, but for most people, it's just not an option. I'm glad we could do it, though.
March 7, 2009 2:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
What you describe in the treatment of your f-i-l has been a focus in many of the articles I've read, i.e. the uncoordinated and sometimes routinized care that is not oriented around the actual patient. I too am sorry it was so awful for you.
My experiences with Hospice though, which are rather vast as I come from a funeral service background, are without exception - terrific. But from what you said, I wonder if state laws may have made the difference.
March 7, 2009 4:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
You hit the nail precisely on the head. My wife is sitting here, nodding her head in agreement as well. Routinized and uncoordinated describe the situation perfectly. The hospice people were wonderful. So were the medical professionals, to tell you the truth. It's the system that sucks. And the system, unfortunately, controls everything.
March 7, 2009 7:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bang.
It is not a healthcare system, it is a revenue generating system.
It has become... obscene.
March 7, 2009 8:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's the list, from 2000. They no longer do the ratings.
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
March 7, 2009 10:35 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, and I wonder if one of the reasons why they no longer do the ratings is because of pressure from the US?
March 7, 2009 4:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good point. I have a friend who works for WHO. I'll ask him about it next time I see him.
March 7, 2009 7:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Make SURE you report back on the answer!
In reading some of the stuff on the WHO website, it seems that when it comes to the US there is a lot of tip-toeing around certain subjects. I've noticed the same thing with the UN stuff, too.
March 7, 2009 7:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
As far as the 2000 WHO ranking, I wrote a paper on it this semester and because it takes into consideration an overwhelming number of variables, it was difficult for them to do the study in 2000. However, what to take from it? France was voted #1, and they do have an amazing health care system. The reason why the U.S. is ranked much lower, mainly because how we finance health care, how expensive it's becoming and also we have 45 million people uninsured. I don't know if there's a biased with the WHO, one always has to wonder, but I've read a lot of material and seen tons of statistics that show health outcomes in other countries that spend much less than we do on health care are better.
May 5, 2009 1:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
I would like to tell you that the wait is shorter in Canada. But it is not always. We operate on the reality side of the Blogosphere so we don't use lies as our propaganda.
In my experiences, the waits in Canada are about the same for specialists. But it was always just a walk-in with no appointment for general practitioners. I know this stuff first hand from having lived in Canada.
If you have a little bigger problem than just a check up that can wait without any further injury to yourself, then you just might have to wait as more serious cases are treated first. If you have something that can not wait, you won't. They will treat you as fast as they can. IOW: Canadian rationing is based on medical decisions by the Doctors about who needs the treatment first. We all know that American rationing is based on profit and bonuses for the insurance denying companies.
In the polls we have seen Americans tend to be happier with their service providers than Canadian polls show. I am certain that if the question is your health care payer - the results would be hugely different.
I'd like to offer up the most likely reason that I think these numbers are deceptive:
Canadians expect more from their health care. They expect good service and they expect it to be cost effective.
Americans are just happy if they can get ANY health care.
There are problems with every system. None is perfect. But ours is so failed that it would be criminally negligent to leave this system in place.
March 7, 2009 10:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
BTW: Great question. These are things that should be discussed.
March 7, 2009 10:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks, CM. I wrote the part about Canada in the original post before I actually checked and found you are only slightly ahead of us in wait times, and that's because of the directed effort that has recently been made towards improvement.
We've had no efforts anywhere in any direction (until Obama I hope).
March 7, 2009 5:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
You? Us? I live in the states. :) I lived in Canada for about 28 years. I can't, for the life of me, understand how a nation that has ample resources can turn its back on millions of their fellow citizens and let them die because some corporation wants to make more money?
March 8, 2009 1:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
I have a friend in Canada who slipped on ice broke his wrist Making a long story short he had the orthopedic surgeon for the Toronto Mapleleafs pin the break for him within 2 weeks I was recently hit by a car on my bike and am waiting now to get my leg fixed 3 weeks and waiting in florida
March 7, 2009 12:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
I do hope that you get treatment soon! Also, I hope that it is not something that is causing you more damage as you wait for treatment.
March 7, 2009 4:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's hoping you get your treatment. As a native Floridian, I do understand. Unfortunately.
March 7, 2009 5:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Mine has about a month wait, with the twist that they only schedule appointments 2 weeks ahead. So to get a month followup, you have to wait 2 weeks to call for an appointment 2 weeks after that. It's like making an appointment to make an appointment.
March 7, 2009 11:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
This would be a fine way to handle the process if our bodies acted on the same schedule. There's the rub!
March 7, 2009 4:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Reality is that the republicans who comment on this:
1. Have socialized health provided as part of their perks as members of congress
2. They go to the head of the class unlike normal citizens
It's one of the reasons these assclowns live so long and you don't
March 7, 2009 12:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
I like my doctor a lot but things like check-ups need to be scheduled well in advance. Were I seriously injured or if I became suddenly sick, he'd no doubt do his best to squeeze me in but I don't know that I can 100% count on that -- he can't do everything, after all and if I break my arm in the middle of the night, he ain't getting up to open his office!
People worry that a public system would cause "rationing." Doesn't the private system ration too, though?
March 7, 2009 12:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
As far as I can tell, it rations, destor. And it doesn't ration under a worse/better off type of triage, but under the profit motive type of rationing.
March 7, 2009 5:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
My family physician's practice devotes the first hour or two of each day to an acute-care walk-in clinic for established patients. So if my child wakes up in the night with a fever and sore throat we can be seen the next morning. Routine vaccines, physicals, etc. the wait is probably three weeks. I couldn't be happier with that.
Specialists, that's another matter. Even for urgent matters I've had to wait weeks to get in.
The big famous cancer hospital I've been going to more than half my life is a lot quicker, on average, just because they have to have more flexibility built in to schedules.
Right now I'm waiting for my insurance to pre-approve an admittedly expensive, but medically necessary, test that is already three months overdue.The appeal process is estimated to take another MONTH at least, in spite of clear evidence of need. That's just how long it takes the paper (yes, paper!) to get through the insurance bureaucracy. I would much rather my oncologist and her staff be devoting her time her patients in current treatment and to her research rather than trying to prove my case to some bureaucrat.
I estimate that I spend about an hour dealing with insurance and billing people for every minute of actual contact with medical care (doctors, nurses, lab technicians).
March 7, 2009 2:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
I live in UK. I'm not clear whether expatyank is speaking about the NHS or a private appointment. The NHS recently abolished the concept of 'your' doctor (general practitioner). Now, patients are registered with a surgery, not a particular GP, as had been the case since the start of the NHS. This year, I had to wait three weeks for an appointment with 'my' GP who has had my care for over 20 years. I could have seen another GP within a week. As I have regular 'maintenance' appointments every three months, I shall simply book my appointments further in advance than I did previously. My surgery does make provision for same day appointments if the patient thinks the matter is urgent.
March 7, 2009 3:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
It isn't clear if changing the reimbursement system will have any impact on waiting times for appointments. Waiting time for appointments is purely a function of the number of appointments vs. the demand for appointments.
Universal coverage would increase, not decrease, the demand for care and increase waiting times without an increase in providers.
Emergency demand would go down However many doctors are currently 'maxxed out' and aren't even taking more patients.
Waiting time decreases only if more clinics and doctors/providers are in place and ready to go, especially primary care. Accomplishing this would take long term planning and changes to the output mix of our health care education system.
March 7, 2009 4:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
NCD, I wasn't making a correlation between single payer and waiting times. Mine was just addressing the right-wing talking point about waiting times, where they seem to believe that where there are no waiting times now, they will go through the roof if single payer is instituted. They are already through the roof was my point.
March 7, 2009 8:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Interesting post and great comments, I found them very educational. I am a Family Practice physician and I will share a few observations:
#1 - You are going to have to wait to see your doctor unless you are very ill. Most offices spend the day juggling the schedule to get the really sick people in. They are doing their best and won't let you wait longer than is medically necessary.
#2 - The comment above from NobleCommentDecider is absolutely correct, a very concise and true statement.
#3 - One thing medical clinics fail at is educating patients regarding clinic procedures.
#4 - Very few people seem to appreciate the value of Nurse Practitioners and Physician Assistants.
#5 - While the US has a lot of doctors compared to other countries, we have fewer Primary Care doctors, so you are going to have to wait longer to see them.
#6 - To the Canadian commenter above who said something like, "I walked out of the hospital and had surgery and didn't pay a thing" - trust me, you paid.
#7 - If the perceived personal cost of medical care drops, the demand will rise. Medicaid patients go to the doctor a lot more than people with regular insurance.
March 7, 2009 5:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Steevo, I had to think about this for awhile. Hope it's not too late.
#1. Correct. Everyone understands that, but still we wonder about 1-2-3 months when it's not urgent, but there is something wrong somewhere.
2. True also. While the wait times may be adversely affected, changing the payer will increase access for a whole lot more people.
3. Apparently. I'm not sure what clinic procedures are or why I should know them. :-)
4. Not me. I love those people.
5. That is another goal. Get Primary Care Docs in place on the front-lines. I've heard that Medicare is already considering boosting the fees for Primaries and cutting them for Specialties.
6. The free lunch thing. But its about pooling the risk. We do it for hurricanes.
7. The goal is to quit using cost benefit analysis and re-orient ourselves to performance and patient outcome analysis. The competition still exists, just differently.
But I'm willing to listen and consider anything.
March 8, 2009 8:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
You want to hear stories in support of universal health care? Stories that prove the arguments against universal health care wrong? Go to http://healthcareforamerica.blogspot.com/ or http://www.youtube.com/results?search_type=&search_query=daj+mythbusters&aq=f.
Although most sites are collecting health care horror stories, expats are so eager to tell their stories about health care, too, because we know how the systems can work.
I'm an American living in Japan, and can tell you my wait times are minimal. Whether going to the major hospital in my country town for specialty care or my general practitioner, my waiting times vary from 10 minutes to about one hour--and that is with no appointment. If there is an appointment, there is never more than a 10-minute wait.
Every single objection by conservatives about universal health care is wrong. My taxes are not significantly higher than what I pay at home, the care is exemplary, even in my small country town, there are no long waits, I alone choose my doctor, I don't abuse the system by going to the doctor every time I get a sniffle, but I am able to go to the doctor when I want, without having to wait until it becomes a crisis. I've been lucky enough to live in Europe and Japan, and say with no hesitation that national health care, even though it certainly has some problems and no system is perfect, is far and away superior to the American system.
In contrast to comments above, when I lived in the US, my insurance carrier determined which doctor I was able to see, I always had to see a GP before being referred to someone who could solve my medical problem (that means two visits instead of one), even with appointments, the doctors were so overloaded that I had to wait between 1 and two hours, and the billing procedures were so complicated because every step of the way brought a new bill from a new company which I then would have to fight with my insurance company about coverage. How anyone can defend this system is beyond me.
March 7, 2009 5:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
The problems with health care in the USA is that it was never designed to provide efficient and effective health care for all ('socialized medicine'), as exists in Japan and in every other industrialized nation. It might be said, in some respects, it is health care of, by, and for the dollar.
It is a cash cow for the health insurance industry and in for profit health corporations and for some doctors, and ultimately, through campaign contributions, a cash ATM for politicians.
It is not cost effective, as the USA spends twice as much for health care per-capita as Japan or any other nation on earth.
If Obama is going to overhaul our 'system' to make it like Japan, it will be fought by every vested interest (insurance/ for profit corporations/ drug industry /Republicans), and if he succeeds it will take many years to see final positive results.
March 7, 2009 6:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
"I always had to see a GP before being referred to someone who could solve my medical problem (that means two visits instead of one)"- bylatti
It is exactly this sort of thinking that is causing health care costs to rise. A primary care doctor is necessary to diagnose your problem first. Primary care doctors can also treat most things they can diagnose. We have a glut of specialists in most urban areas of the US.
Doctors get paid very little for the diagnosis. Also, primary care doctors get paid less for treating you than a specialist does - for the exact same treatment. That is why your primary care doctor has to see a lot of people during the day. Failure to diagnose correctly or in a timely fashion is also one of the most common reasons for malpractice lawsuits.
The relationship between the primary care physician and the patient is where the "rubber meets the road" in healthcare. If that relationship is not fundamentally changed, then healthcare itself will not change.
March 7, 2009 6:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, see it's interesting in other countries they look at quality health care as a right, and in the U.S. we see it as a commodity, something that can be bought and traded. We look at patients as consumers, if you look a lot of Republicans use the words "consumer-based", but should we profit off people's health? You hit the nail on the head. I recently went to a lecture by Dr. Bruce Bagley at the American Academy of Family Physicians, and he presented a model of health care that is patient centered and uses IT effectively in treating patients, it was very interesting.
May 5, 2009 1:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
resetting dashboard again. I lost my reset blog. If anyone sees it, please send it home. kthnxbai!
September 9, 2009 9:03 AM | Reply | Permalink