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How Greenwald Gets States Secrets Wrong and Why It Matters


In his latest blistering salvo against DOJ's legal brief filings, Glenn Greenwald makes a number of very potent and alarming charges against the Obama DOJ that unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on how you look at it) don't stand up well under closer scrutiny.

As a former constitutional attorney and occasional contributing writer for libertarian think-tank, the Cato Institute, you might expect Greenwald to really know his stuff when it comes to matters of constitutional law.

But it's hard to see how one can interpret some of Greenwald's more strident recent attacks on the administration's legal positions as not being either ill-informed or deliberately misleading.

Alleging that the Obama administration is continuing the Bush policy of "expanding" states secret powers and even claiming new powers for itself, Greenwald writes (emphasis mine):

"...beyond even the outrageously broad 'state secrets' privilege invented by the Bush administration and now embraced fully by the Obama administration, the Obama DOJ has now invented a brand new claim of government immunity..."

In similarly breathless tones, he writes at another point that, with its latest legal filing, the Obama administration has created "a brand new 'sovereign immunity' claim of breathtaking scope -- never before advanced even by the Bush administration."

Let's unpack and inspect each of these alarming claims in turn:

Claim 1: The Bush Administration Dramatically Expanded the Scope of State Secrets Powers and the New DOJ Is Carrying these Expanded Powers Forward

The first part of this claim isn't a claim about the Obama administration at all, but nevertheless, it provides a crucial underpinning of Greenwald's broader greivances.

Only, as Gertrude Stein once famously remarked, "There's no there there."

We who criticized the Bush administration may be correct in saying Bush grossly abused his state secrets powers, but granting that fact, it's not at all clear that Bush actually expanded the scope of these powers.

Greenwald frequently asserts that, through previous legal precedent, state secrets powers allowed the executive to block specific pieces of evidence from the courts, but that the executive before Bush never had the power to dismiss whole cases or to prevent non-privileged evidence from undergoing judicial review.

But there are two previous legal precedents that, when taken together, show that both in principle and in practice, the executive already held this power long before Bush.

The first of these precedents is the one that originally established "state secrets" powers in the US, the Supreme Court decision in the case of US v. Reynolds. This decision explicitly granted the executive branch the authority to invoke state secrets privileges in its own discretion, without the privileged evidence being subject to any form of judicial review or further legal challenge.

In other words, the decision gave the executive branch and only the executive branch the power to say what is or isn't a privileged state secret.

Like it or not, this precedent alone effectively gives the executive branch the power to dismiss any civil lawsuit it can reasonably claim touches on national security issues. All the government has to do to shut down any such trial from this point forward is to declare whatever evidence is entered into consideration off limits under state secrets powers.

Technically, such a case could still be brought before the courts, but since the government has the authority to declare any evidence even potentially entered into consideration as privileged, it can ultimately force the case to be thrown out of the courts on the basis that it has no legal standing.

But that's not the only precedent that undermines Greenwald's assertions on state secrets: In 1992, a federal appeals court decision ruled that the courts can't even allow a trial to proceed if doing so might touch on evidence protected under state secrets powers.

The court ruled that a previous court's decision to dismiss a state secrets related case had to stand without the appeals court even taking any new evidence, whether it was declared privileged or not, into consideration--in fact, the court ruled that it couldn't even examine the new evidence, because the application of the state secrets privilege didn't permit it:

This time the plaintiffs file over 2,500 pages of unclassified documentary evidence supporting their claims that the contractors were negligent in their design and implementation of the weapons systems aboard the Stark. The appeals court finds that regardless of the amount of evidence entered, to allow the trial would be to potentially infringe on the US government's "state secrets" privilege (see March 9, 1953). "[N]o amount of effort could safeguard the privileged information," the court rules.

So previous precedent held that the executive could declare any particular piece of evidence it wanted off limits, and the 1992 federal appeals court decision ruled that even allowing a trial that might bump up against state secrets privileged evidence to proceed posed an unacceptable risk to national security.

Putting these two rulings together, the legal precedent for the government to throw out any case it likes under state secrets privileges was already established even before Clinton took office. In using states secret powers to block public scrutiny of his torture and wiretapping programs, Bush didn't actually claim new legal authority for himself, as Greenwald argues. He just grossly abused legal authority that he already had.

Claim 2: The Obama Administration Has Created "a Brand New 'Sovereign Immunity' Claim of Breathtaking Scope"

This part of Greenwald's argument is a little bewildering to see coming from someone with a legal background. 

The United States federal government, like every government in history, has always been understood to enjoy the protections of sovereign immunity--meaning, the federal government can't be sued unless it consents to being sued.

This isn't a new claim of "breathtaking scope": it's been the law of the land from the beginning of the US legal system, with exceptions only in a few narrow circumstances defined in statute under which the federal government has waived its sovereign immunity to a limited extent.

Though his motives are likely much purer, Greenwald writes about "sovereign immunity" as credulously as right-wing pundits wrote about "habeas corpus," acting as if it were some novel, controversial legal theory rather than a bedrock principle of the US legal system.   

* * * *

In offering these responses to Greenwald, it's not my intent to dismiss his arguments all together, just to set the record straight on a few of his more sensational and pointed recent criticisms. I have no doubt that Greenwald's commitment to government accountability and the defense of civil liberties are genuine and that his contributions in these areas are valuable.

I also have no doubt that his recent attacks on President Obama's DOJ are meant to shed light into dark places--places that could definitely stand to see more light.

But unfortunately, I think he's misinterpreting the administration's actions and motives in certain fundamental ways, looking for instantly-gratifying, short term outcomes for problems that require more carefully measured approaches to stand any chance of achieving substantive long-term change.

Sensationalizing every legal brief filing that comes along as if each one is the final nail in the coffin of democracy isn't helping to foster the kind of calm, level-headed approach to policy-making we need right now.

And among the many lessons the Bush years should have taught us, isn't one that the executive branch doesn't always have to claim new powers to make itself more powerful? If left unchallenged, it can usually achieve the same effect simply by abusing powers it already has.


39 Comments

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While you are undoubtedly right, Saul, that in historical terms States Secrets has been given extreme deference by the courts, it seems clear to me that Glenn is also right (and rightfully angry) about the most recent argument for sovereign immunity being a fresh stinky turd by the new DOJ.

I've been following the dissection of this issue by the bright attorneys at Marcy Wheeler's blog, and was struck by the audacity of this latest claim by Holder's DOJ, not previously raised in this case:

There is a “longstanding interpretive presumption that [the term] ‘person’ does not include the sovereign,” Vermont Agency of Nat. Res. v. United States, 529 U.S. 765, 780 (2000)(collecting cases), and the presumption may be overcome “only upon some affirmative showingof statutory intent to the contrary.” Id. FISA reveals no such intent.

Now consider this against the definition of "person" in FISA itself (1809):

“Person” means any individual, including any officer or employee of the Federal Government, or any group, entity, association, corporation, or foreign power.
(emphasis added)

I'd like to see Holder do much, much better than he did in the Kouric interview at explaining where there head is on this. Until then, I'm donating all I can afford to the EFF.

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I'd like to check out the blog you mentioned. Can you provide a link?

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Typos, that definition is from section 1801 of FISA, not 1809. "Their" heads.

Statutory intent, indeed.

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Greenwald is always angry, especially at Democrats. It makes it hard to know when he is on to something, or just being a dick. His blowup over FISA last year was one such case.

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"In similarly breathless tones..."

Are you sure he isn't just shrill? Anyway, Greenwald is far from alone in making these claims (see: everyone). I don't think you have to be a constitutional scholar or even a lawyer to understand that Bush abused the state secrets privilege ("abused," "expanded" "invented," "broadened," whatever) and Holder is making those same claims for Obama.

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Obama isn't another W, and Holder isn't another Alberto Gonzales, and I would trust Holder's judgment more than Greenwald or the Cato Institute.

Cato pushed the Project on Social Security Privatization in 1995, and I believe they are of the 'no government', 'no regulation' nutty libertarian stripe.

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Do you believe that SCOTUS would not accept a new appeal on a current case?

I think some of these issues need to be pushed up the ladder.

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I think you go to great lengths to undercut Greenwald without actually undercutting him.

Of course Greenwald knows there existed State Secrets categories before Bush, and you of course know that Bush expanded the scope and tenor of these.

Let me copy the full of Greenwald's point, which you oddly cut off short:

a brand new "sovereign immunity" claim of breathtaking scope -- never before advanced even by the Bush administration -- that the Patriot Act bars any lawsuits of any kind for illegal government surveillance unless there is "willful disclosure" of the illegally intercepted communications.

You also seem to confuse the United States government with the Executive Branch, which I think is part of Greenwald's point in all this - the Executive Branch is not the whole, and from the works you cite, not even the relevant branch:

Since suits against the United States can be maintained only by permission, it follows that they can be brought only in the manner prescribed by Congress and subject to the restrictions imposed.863 Only Congress can take the necessary steps to waive the immunity of the United States from liability for claims, and hence officers of the United States are powerless by their actions either to waive such immunity or to confer jurisdiction on a federal court.864 Even when authorized, suits can be brought only in designated courts.865 These rules apply equally to suits by States[p.748]against the United States.866 Although an officer acting as a public instrumentality is liable for his own torts, Congress may grant or withhold immunity from suit on behalf of government corporations.867
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Desidero: The second passage you cite is about congress having the authority to waive sovereign immunity. It actually only reinforces my central point: the assumption under the law is that every part of the federal government--with the few narrow exceptions congress has defined in statute--already falls under the protection of sovereign immunity by default.

And let's be clear, state secrets powers are not related to sovereign immunity. State secrets powers as defined in case law most definitely are a power of the executive branch.

Do I personally like this status quo? No. I don't like the law in this area at all. It grants way too much power to the executive and that power should be reigned in by some mechanism (a constitutional amendment might do the trick, but the courts would probably just overturn any legislation).

At the same time, I don't think it does the cause any good to misconstrue or misinterpret what the law actually is right now, and that's what I believe Greenwald does.

Let me copy the full of Greenwald's point, which you oddly cut off short:

...

"...that the Patriot Act bars any lawsuits of any kind for illegal government surveillance unless there is "willful disclosure" of the illegally intercepted communications."

Don't you see, though, that whether regarding the Patriot Act or not, if sovereign immunity already gives the state the inherent power to dismiss any lawsuit brought against it for any reason, this particular clarification actually just describes a specific limit to the normal powers of sovereign immunity? The statement actually says that according to the DOJ's reading of the Patriot Act (which, again, like it or not was adopted into law by congress), the government's sovereign immunity under the act is limited in any cases in which the government publicly disclosed information gained through its surveillance program.

So this briefing actually says the DOJ thinks you can sue if the government leaked dirt on you to the press. Does anybody out there think that dirt collected on them through the surveillance program was deliberately leaked to the press to harm them? If so, you might want to lawyer up.

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Sorry "brief" not "briefing."

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But the activity the government seeks to hide from scrutiny is illegal to begin with. That's the problem here. The government can break the law at will, make the claim of state secrets and essentially do anything it pleases to anyone it pleases. Put this power in the hands of human beings and it is a guarantee of abuses to come. It is without any question a tool of tyranny and far more than a technical legal matter. We know very well that the government cannot be trusted with and cannot be given such power without it being abused. Our forefathers and the generation of legislators who passed laws prohibiting domestic spying understood this very well. Obviously, the clear understanding they had has dimmed with time and that means our liberty is more threatened and less secure than it used to be.

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Still not clear to me. Obviously people have been suing the government over quite a number of things, and it's suddenly surprising to find the government saying "oh, this area's now off limits, can't even have a court case". So it seems that whatever claim of blanket sovereign immunity is not exactly what we've been working with for some 2 centuries, for whatever reason that is. What was Hamdan v. Rumsfeld?

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Not suddenly, just suddenly a lot more and more visibly. This has been going on for decades, but Bush is said to have upped by an order of magnitude in frequency.

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We need more conversations about these things. And other things. Rather than just diatribes. Thanks for starting a conversation.

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“In his latest blistering salvo “,
“a number of very potent and alarming charges”,
“more strident recent attack”,
“In similarly breathless tones”,
“each of these alarming claims”,
“Greenwald writes about "sovereign immunity" as credulously as right-wing pundits wrote about "habeas corpus," “

Thanks TheraP for the laugh. At first I thought you were serious.

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You know, I confess I skimmed this. I stand corrected. (Take as a joke on me!)

On the other hand, we need discussions. And I thank your for discussing. I'm weary of polemic. I'm weary of politics right now - for that reason.

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agree

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I still think it's a good conversation going on here though.

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One of the main points I mean to make here is that I feel Greenwald and others are over-sensationalizing these discussions to the point that it's hard to have a level-headed, clear-eyed conversation about what the law really is (which in effect, precludes any nuanced discussion about what it should be).

To me, Greenwald's tone is unnecessarily "alarmist," "strident" and all those other adjectives you quote. I don't point that out meaning only to start a fight, but to offer a criticism.

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I still think yours is a conversation. And I'm grateful for that. (even if I only skimmed it)

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I have to say, I pulled Reynolds (the link is busted) and I think you're missing the point. First, as an interesting (but telling) historical footnote, the information was witthheld because the government was embarrassed. http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/la-op-siegel16sep16,0,4846280.story

(Apologies, don't know html.).

Also, if you read Reynolds, it most assuredly does NOT state that the state secrets privilege is the exclusive domain of the executive branch. The case involved the application (and inference) of sanctions under the discovery rules--namely, whether a sanction could be issued against the government for failure to disclose. The Court found that no such sanction could issue under rule 37. The court in reynolds expressly does NOT rule on this point:

begin quote
We have had broad propositions pressed upon us for decision. On behalf of the Government, it has been urged that the executive department heads have power to withhold any documents in their custody from judicial view if they deem it to be in the public interest. [Footnote 9] Respondents have asserted that the executive's power to withhold documents was waived by the Tort Claims Act. Both positions have constitutional overtones which we find it unnecessary to pass upon, there being a narrower ground for decision. Touhy v. Ragen, 340 U. S. 462 (1951); Rescue Army v. Municipal Court of Los Angeles, 331 U. S. 549, 331 U. S. 574-585 (1947).

The Tort Claims Act expressly makes the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure applicable to suits against the United States. [Footnote 10] The judgment in this case imposed liability upon the Government by operation of Rule 37, for refusal to produce documents under Rule 34. Since Rule 34 compels production only of matters "not privileged," the essential question is whether there was a valid claim of privilege under the Rule. We hold that there was, and that therefore the judgment below subjected the United States to liability on terms to which Congress did not consent by the Tort Claims Act.

End block quote.

Unfortunately, the appellate case you linked to is also busted, so I can't read that one either. The upshot of this, though, is that Bush is taking the extreme position alluded to in Reynolds, and now Obama is following it.

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REynolds makes no sense as described by the LA Times

"a skeptical U.S. District Judge William Kirkpatrick said, "I only want to know where your argument leads." The assistant U.S. attorney made plain where it led: "We contend that the findings of the [executive branch] are binding . . . upon the judiciary. You cannot review it or interpret it. That is what it comes down to."

Kirkpatrick did not agree. He found the government in default and awarded the widows damages. A three-judge panel of the U.S. 3rd Circuit Court of Appeals unanimously affirmed his decision. But when the matter came before the U.S. Supreme Court, it reversed the lower courts, for the first time formally recognizing a state secrets privilege in the landmark ruling U.S. vs. Reynolds. The government shouldn't have absolute autonomy, wrote Chief Justice Fred Vinson in his 1953 opinion, but if the government can satisfy the court that a "reasonable danger" to national security exists, judges should defer and not force the government to produce documents -- not even for private examination in the judge's chambers."

There is nothing in the article to show that the government met this requirement:

"the government can satisfy the court that a "reasonable danger" to national security exists"

rather, it looks as if Kirkpatrick was NOT satisfied, found default, and the Appeals Court(s) supported K. correctly, ... and therefore SCOTUS was blathering aimlessly (or with an aim to obfuscate) if it overturned the judgment completely.

Now, maybe the facts aren't that simple, but based on the article there is something very wrong with Reynolds at SCOTUS.

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This is not surprising. The vinson court was not a particularly good one.

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I suspect the reasoning was better than suggested by the Times article. If it had been lousy it would have been approached effectively and earlier, I'd think.

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Here are a couple of relevant bits from the court's decision and opinion in Reynolds:

When the formal claim of privilege was filed by the Secretary, under circumstances indicating a reasonable possibility that military secrets were involved, there was a sufficient showing of privilege to cut off further demand for the documents on the showing of necessity for its compulsion that had been made.

As I read the above, it basically says if the government invokes its state secrets privilege, as long as it's not an implausible stretch to say military secrets were involved (and when it comes to cases involving secret military programs it seems hard to deny there's a reasonable possibility military secrets were involved, no matter how you define "reasonable"), then as far as the courts are concerned, the claim of privilege is legitimate and not subject to further review. This next passage, from the majority opinion clarifies the point about judicial review:

When this is the case, the occasion for the privilege is appropriate, and the court should not jeopardize the security which the privilege is meant to protect by insisting upon an examination of the evidence, even by the judge alone, in chambers.

It's a shame the site I linked is down now. Here's the Google cache of the site though, which covers the entire history of state secrets in case law.

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Wiretapping is not a military activity, thus it is not a military secret at risk, unless the wiretaps were on secret military phone lines used for official secret military business. The military doesn't run the country even if factually it sometimes seems that way.

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Again, I think you're missing the point. The claim in Reynolds (and presumably everywhere) is that the government has a privilege against disclosure under rules 33 and 34. I don't think anyone really disputes either the existence of this privilege or its wisdom. There are really two issues: (1) the foundations of the privilege; and (2) its effect.

The effect of any privilege (much like atty-client) is to remove certain evidence from the court without prejudice. That is all that Reynolds holds. What it does do to some degree is broaden the -foundation- for asserting the privilege, namely--how much does the gov have to show to successfully assert it, and can there be any judicial review of that foundation.

The extreme nature of the Bush position is that they have taken the view that these suits cannot constitutionally continue. The executive has asserted state secrets; state secrets is an executive privilege that cannot be taken away. Ergo, the lawsuit must be dismissed as both the alleged bad act and the privileged evidence are unreviewable. That is--as Greenwald and Bruce Fein have noted--an extremely radical position.

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==if sovereign immunity already gives the state the inherent power to dismiss any lawsuit brought against it for any reason==

This is an absurd assertion. What is preventing the "state" from enslaving half of the population and refusing any legal efforts to enforce our constitutional rights to gain freedom?

Since this is Passover...Is only recourse "the frogs"?

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Ever hear of a little thing called "slavery"? Ever hear of a lawsuit for reparations successfully being brought against the US government for allowing the practice to go on with its full legal sanction for so long? Well there you go: That's exactly how powerful sovereign immunity is.

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But you didn't answer the question, did you?

Can the government today commit a blatantly illegal act, then declare "state secrets" privilige to short circuit all legal processes in perpetuity to overturn their actions?

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No, state secrets powers aren't that sweeping. It's not like the courts have said the gov't can do anything it wants under the justification of states secrets. The gov't can't halt an election, for example. The gov't can just block information it wants from being disclosed to the courts in a legal proceeding, if the case in some way relates to what the government can reasonably claim are military or national security secrets.

To me and probably most other people, cases involving secret military and national security agency programs, like the warantless wiretapping program, are pretty obvious examples of cases involving national security secrets. That means, according to precedent, the government is within its rights to invoke state secrets. That doesn't mean it should do it, but it's within its right. No claims of new powers are required; just a willingness to deal with the political fallout.

Can the government today commit a blatantly illegal act, then declare "state secrets" privilige to short circuit all legal processes in perpetuity to overturn their actions?

Well, yes. But it's been that way since day one. Sovereign immunity doesn't and has never allowed criminal charges to be raised against the federal government or individuals acting in official capacities on behalf of the federal government unless the government consents to those charges. There are exceptions in the statutes that waive sovereign immunity for certain civil matters, but even those are very specific and limited.

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Sorry for any confusion--this was meant to go in response to your most recent comment further down the page...

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LOL!

"The gov't can't halt an election, for example."

But the court can, heh.

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rumpole, thank you for the Reynolds link.

For those who don't have the time to read the article, here is the paragraph referencing the government embarassment coverup referenced by rumpole in his comment:

"Declassified half a century later, the disputed B-29 accident report turned out to tell a tale of military negligence -- maintenance failures, missing heat shields, cockpit confusion -- not one of national security secrets about a radar guidance system. The government, it seems, was seeking to cover its embarrassment and hide its mistakes, not to protect the country's security."

Bottom line for me: At a mininum, to uphold true "CHECKS AND BALANCES" and ELIMINATE coverups, then judges must review the evidence in claims of State Secrets by the Executive to ensure there is no abuse of the privilege.

As for State Secrets in circumstances where evidence is truly detrimental to security; judges should have the ability to make a determination of whether our rights have been violated. Period. They have closed hearings for child abuse and divorce cases, why can't they have closed hearings for these supposed "sensitive" information cases. I'm not a constitutional scholar, but for goddsakes, there has to be a way.

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Here are the options for changing this: The supreme court could make a ruling that better defines/limits state secrets powers. But the courts haven't wanted to touch it, really, since it began--even since it's become apparent it's mostly used to cover up for government malfeasance as in Reynolds (go-figure).

There's nothing to stop congress from legislating limits, but the executive could ignore the statutes, forcing the matter back to the courts, which might just rule the statutory limits unconstitutional.

A constitutional amendment would do the trick, but those are hard to pull off, requiring two-thirds majorities in both chambers of legislature and ratification by three-fourths of the states.

At any rate, these are the only routes by which this power could potentially be curtailed. Until one of these approaches changes the law, President Obama can't make state secrets powers go away. He could decline to use them to cover his own misdeeds, but he can't make them go away as powers of the presidency as an office.

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Can you answer my question a couple of posts above?

If you are correct, and government assertion of state secrets is completely unreviewable for any case, then we live in a tyrrany, and the constitution is a joke.

The government can simply declare the elections null and void, asserting state secrets. Unreviewable by the courts and un-overturnable, except by the specific constitutional amendment, according to your reasoning.

Alternatively, the government can close all newspapers in the country, using the same privilege and as long as the Supreme Court refuses to get involved, we have to wait for a constitutional amendment to pass before we see a word in print. Of course the government can simply shut down all and any constitutional amendment processes, citing state secrets, so we would have no legal recourse, whatsover.

In a sense, what you are saying is that "state secrets" trumps the constitution itself.

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The answer to your questions is "no."

A "privilege" is nothing more, or nothing less, a legal right of some person to keep otherwise relevant evidence from being used at trial, or even obtained in the course of litigation. There are lots of them. State secrets, attorney-client, priest-penitant, doctor-patient, husband-wife, psychologist-patient. The Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination, in practice, works like a privilege.

To invoke the state secrets privilege, the government must at least convincingly explain how the evidence the other side wants could result in the disclosure of military secrets that would damage national security.

Stopping elections or shutting down newspapers (as if anyone would notice given how rapidly they're shutting themselves down) has nothing to do with keeping evidence out of a trial. And if the government, by which I assume you mean the executive, did that, what on earth makes you think they'd give a damn what the courts had to say about it regardless? Assuming they did that horrible stuff and, for some reason, did still give a damn what the courts said, though, if someone sued them for doing open and obvious things like shutting down a newspaper or cancelling an election, no real judge would buy the argument that the case couldn't proceed to trial without revealing military secrets.

The danger of the state secrets privilege is that it gives the government an opportunity to shield illegal or embarassing acts done in secret in the scope of conducting military and foreign intelligence activities from judicial scrutiny. That's potentially bad because of the potential to cover up domestic spying and stuff like botched military operations or defense contract corruption, but its not some overarching grant of superconstitutional power. And, seriously, if they decided to just declare martial law, shut down the papers and abolish elections, don't you think they'd also just toss any judge who they thought would give them trouble into a concentration camp along with the blog commenters and latte drinkers?

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==To invoke the state secrets privilege, the government must at least convincingly explain how the evidence the other side wants could result in the disclosure of military secrets that would damage national security.==

Convincingly explain to who and how?

No one is arguing that the government doesn't have a legitimate "privilege" here. What is at hand, though, is a claim that this "privilege" comes with no judicial, and perhaps no legislative oversight. A state secret unitary executive privilege, if you will.

Remember, DOJ is trying to prevent the case from going forward at all, not to limit the kind of evidence they are required to present. No one would have an issue, if DOJ asserted that this or that particular evidence is harmful to disclosure in open court and presented convincing reasons to the judge as to why this is so. In fact, the case may fail, if the government can successfully argue for evidence suppression and convince the trial judge of their resoning. However, DOJ is asserting a right to quash any and all legal proceedings with an unreviewable "declaration" of state secrets. That is a Kafkaesque situation - we can spy on you and you can never challenge us because our spying is secret.

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==To me and probably most other people, cases involving secret military and national security agency programs, like the warantless wiretapping program, are pretty obvious examples of cases involving national security secrets.==

OK, but who gets to decide if the government is within its rights to envoke state secrets privilege?

If, as you say, the judges can't look at the evidence, then again, the government is free to break the law (as it did in this case) then short-circuit any judicial enquiry by envoking state secrets.

Since, the state secrets can really be made quite broad, and if it is, as you say, a blanket, judicially untouchable wall, then the government can use it to cover up all manner of malfeasance and illegality.

The examples I used are absurdly outrageous to make a point. In this case, the government spied on us illegaly, then used the state secrets claim to cover up its illegality. There is got to be some recourse, otherwise it is a clear highway to continuous violations of all manner of rights.

It also appears to be a close relative to the unitary executive theory, so popular in the previous administration. It also allows the President total freedom to break all laws in time of war, with no judicial or legislative oversight. State secrets claim, as now propagated by Obama DOJ, allows neary the same "flexibility" in the very broad "national security area", with no judicial oversight and very unclear and tenuous legislative recourse.

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