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   <title>satyagraha&apos;s Blog</title>
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   <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/satyagraha//2333</id>
   <updated>		2009-12-01T03:30:48Z	2009-12-01T03:27:34Z		2009-12-01T03:24:37Z	2009-12-01T03:23:47Z		2009-12-01T03:20:19Z	2009-12-01T03:20:19Z	2009-12-01T03:19:37Z	2009-12-01T03:16:42Z	2009-12-01T03:16:14Z	2009-12-01T03:14:51Z	2009-12-01T03:14:19Z	2009-12-01T03:13:21Z	2009-12-01T03:12:34Z			2009-12-01T03:10:07Z	2009-12-01T03:09:33Z	2009-12-01T03:09:21Z	2009-12-01T03:07:57Z	2009-12-01T03:05:16Z	2009-12-01T03:03:59Z	2009-12-01T03:02:28Z	2009-12-01T03:00:35Z	2009-12-01T02:58:53Z	2009-12-01T02:58:06Z		2009-12-01T02:57:02Z</updated>
   
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	<entry>
		
	<title>MBH recommended The Spot-Light and the Flood-Light by MBH</title>
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   <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/satyagraha//2333.304704</id>
  <published>2009-11-29T17:01:39Z</published>
   <updated>2009-11-30T05:01:05Z</updated>
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	<entry>
		
	<title>MBH recommended Minaret Attack! by ☠enghis</title>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/genghis/2009/11/minaret-attack.php" />
   <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/genghis//1185.304933</id>
  <published>2009-11-30T22:42:47Z</published>
   <updated>2009-12-01T01:28:40Z</updated>
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	<title>MBH recommended NORTHCO-17: The Attack of the Armadillos by dickday</title>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/dikkday48yahoocom/2009/11/northco-17-the-attack-of-the-a.php" />
   <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/dikkday48yahoocom//5214.304820</id>
  <published>2009-11-30T16:30:52Z</published>
   <updated>2009-11-30T16:24:09Z</updated>
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			<entry>
            <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/satyagraha//2333.304704-comment:3686847</id>
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		    <title>MBH Commented on The Spot-Light and the Flood-Light by MBH</title>
		        
			<published>2009-11-30T20:04:35Z</published>
			   <updated>2009-11-30T20:04:35Z</updated>
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		        <![CDATA[<p><i>...phenomenon is a refraction of noumena...</i></p>

<p>Wow.  I love that.</p>

<p><i>What follows is certainly some kind of logos that participates in this process of observation collectively.</i></p>

<p>Agreed.  This process is a meta-web-log.</p>

<p><i>Unless we can refute time. Time necessitates ontology... but if time is refuted, i.e., remains a byproduct of gravity, then outside of gravity (past the boundaries of finite space) is a timeless present that does not require a creator.</i></p>

<p>I'm going to give myself some time to process this.  I always appreciate your feedback.</p>]]>
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            <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/satyagraha//2333.304704-comment:3686821</id>
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		    <title>MBH Commented on The Spot-Light and the Flood-Light by MBH</title>
		        
			<published>2009-11-30T19:54:40Z</published>
			   <updated>2009-11-30T19:54:40Z</updated>
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		        <![CDATA[<p><i>I don't find the tables and chairs around me any less real than the atoms that make them up, nor the atoms any less real than the indeterminate 'particle' states that make them up.</i></p>

<p>I don't think tables and chairs are less real than atoms or particle states.  I just think all of those things are the manifestation of one thing.  If you had never seen a television before and you find yourself looking at two separate screens with the same fish -- filmed from different angles -- you might wonder what causes the fish on screen 2 to move at the exact same time the fish on screen 1 moves.  Of course, it's the same fish, so there isn't <i>really</i> a causal relation going on.  </p>]]>
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            <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/satyagraha//2333.304704-comment:3686790</id>
		    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/satyagraha/2009/11/the-spot-light-and-the-flood-l.php#c3686790" />
		
		    <title>MBH Commented on The Spot-Light and the Flood-Light by MBH</title>
		        
			<published>2009-11-30T19:40:39Z</published>
			   <updated>2009-11-30T19:40:39Z</updated>
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		        <![CDATA[<p>I should qualify the exact sense in which I'm speaking of causality.  I'm distinguishing between the phenomenal world and the noumenal world, though I'm not saying that one causes the other.  The phenomena of chance, randomness, lawlessness, accident, etc. all assume that the phenomenal world is set in motion by the noumenal world -- that some points in space are literally separate from other points in space.  I don't think that's right.  I think, with Schopenhauer and Bohm's system, that the world we perceive is a direct manifestation of the ding an sich.  As Alan Watts hints: everything looks different on the outside, but underneath, it's all the exact same.  If it's all the exact same -- underneath -- thnn one thing <i>causing</i> another is illusion.  That's not to say we don't perceive it, and it's not to say that causality is useless, it's just to say that we ought to remain aware of limited sense in which the <i>theory</i> of causality holds. </p>

<p>I don't think we'll ever be able to predict everything that happens.  But I <i>do</i> think that -- by definition -- a perspective with access to all the facts <i>would</i> be able to predict everything that happens.  From that perspective there would be no such thing as chance, randomness, lawlessness, accident, etc.  Can we achieve that perspective?  Probably not.  Can we forever move closer and closer to it?  Why not?  </p>]]>
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            <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/satyagraha//2333.304631-comment:3686193</id>
		    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/satyagraha/2009/11/schopenhauers-insight-and-cont.php#c3686193" />
		
		    <title><![CDATA[MBH Commented on Schopenhauer&apos;s Insight and Contemporary Science by MBH]]></title>
		        
			<published>2009-11-30T04:32:23Z</published>
			   <updated>2009-11-30T04:32:23Z</updated>
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		        <![CDATA[<p>I should also say that bare <i>consciousness</i> is not the phrase Thich Nhat Hahn uses.  He uses bare <i>attention</i>.  My apologies.  </p>]]>
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            <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/satyagraha//2333.304704-comment:3686187</id>
		    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/satyagraha/2009/11/the-spot-light-and-the-flood-l.php#c3686187" />
		
		    <title>MBH Commented on The Spot-Light and the Flood-Light by MBH</title>
		        
			<published>2009-11-30T04:23:37Z</published>
			   <updated>2009-11-30T04:23:37Z</updated>
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		        <![CDATA[<p>kgb, you make extremely valid points.  But I would quibble with a few.  </p>

<p><i>...the definition of reality depends on who wants to know...</i></p>

<p>What you're expressing is the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Functionalism_(philosophy_of_mind)">funcationalist</a> point of view.  That perspective has a lot of explanatory power.  But it assumes that causality is a fundamental feature of reality.  And I don't see how we can be intellectually honest and make that assumption.</p>

<p><i>My point about reality was that it's very subjective and fluid.</i></p>

<p>For reality to be subjective, then it has to be subjective from multiple perspectives.  We have to wonder, how do these perspectives form?  And what common thread holds them together?  Most 21st century philosophers think the answer is language.  Language <i>is</i> our information system.  So while, in some sense, we feel that we can't know what another person's reality is, we all share the same information system.  If we share the same information system, then we know -- with certainty -- a whole lot about another person's reality.  So whether you want to go so far as to say that implies an objective reality or not, it undoubtedly implies a <i>shared</i> reality -- the intersubjective.</p>]]>
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            <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/satyagraha//2333.304704-comment:3686060</id>
		    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/satyagraha/2009/11/the-spot-light-and-the-flood-l.php#c3686060" />
		
		    <title>MBH Commented on The Spot-Light and the Flood-Light by MBH</title>
		        
			<published>2009-11-30T00:38:22Z</published>
			   <updated>2009-11-30T00:38:22Z</updated>
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		        <![CDATA[<p>My pleasure.</p>]]>
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            <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/satyagraha//2333.304631-comment:3686016</id>
		    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/satyagraha/2009/11/schopenhauers-insight-and-cont.php#c3686016" />
		
		    <title><![CDATA[MBH Commented on Schopenhauer&apos;s Insight and Contemporary Science by MBH]]></title>
		        
			<published>2009-11-29T23:25:28Z</published>
			   <updated>2009-11-29T23:25:28Z</updated>
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		        <![CDATA[<p>I've actually mis-quoted Thich Nhat Hahn.  He never used <i>bare consciousness</i>; he used <i>bare attention</i>.  I'm not sure that it makes much of a difference -- the reference is really just awareness.  I try to unpack some of that <a href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/satyagraha/2009/11/the-spot-light-and-the-flood-l.php">here</a>.</p>

<p>That's a fair assessment of what Copleston is trying to do.  Let me try to defend Schopenhauer on this charge.  From what I remember -- at the beginning of <i>The World as Will and Representation</i> -- he doesn't want to say that he has this experience of Being that he thinks is the <i>ding an sich</i>.  He merely deduces that everything can be explained except <i>that there is existence</i>.  So existence itself has to be handled differently from the chair and the table.  It, as it were, underlies the chair and the table and everything we can possibly imagine -- including the imagination itself.  So, Schopenhauer's notion of existence itself is purely conceptual.  </p>]]>
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            <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/satyagraha//2333.304704-comment:3685997</id>
		    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/satyagraha/2009/11/the-spot-light-and-the-flood-l.php#c3685997" />
		
		    <title>MBH Commented on The Spot-Light and the Flood-Light by MBH</title>
		        
			<published>2009-11-29T23:07:00Z</published>
			   <updated>2009-11-29T23:07:00Z</updated>
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		        <![CDATA[<p>I agree.  There's always <i>perceived</i> randomness.  Whether or not it's <i>actual</i> is another question. I love that you bring in the stochastic process.  I think that necessarily occurs within the hidden variable(s).  </p>

<p>So freedom of the will changes from simple choice to understanding of the hidden variable(s).</p>]]>
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            <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/satyagraha//2333.304704-comment:3685992</id>
		    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/satyagraha/2009/11/the-spot-light-and-the-flood-l.php#c3685992" />
		
		    <title>MBH Commented on The Spot-Light and the Flood-Light by MBH</title>
		        
			<published>2009-11-29T23:02:01Z</published>
			   <updated>2009-11-29T23:02:01Z</updated>
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		        <![CDATA[<p>That's a great point.  I don't want to rule out uncertainty.  There's always uncertainty.  I just want to say that there is no such thing as <i>absolute</i> uncertainty.  Just because we -- as humans -- can't track all the variables that go into what we perceive doesn't mean that no perspective exists from which there are no hidden variables.  </p>]]>
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            <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/satyagraha//2333.304631-comment:3685983</id>
		    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/satyagraha/2009/11/schopenhauers-insight-and-cont.php#c3685983" />
		
		    <title><![CDATA[MBH Commented on Schopenhauer&apos;s Insight and Contemporary Science by MBH]]></title>
		        
			<published>2009-11-29T22:55:33Z</published>
			   <updated>2009-11-29T22:55:33Z</updated>
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		        <![CDATA[<p>Merill provides a cool link <a href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/satyagraha/2009/11/the-spot-light-and-the-flood-l.php#comment-3685881">here</a> that is aimed in the same direction as you are.</p>]]>
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            <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/satyagraha//2333.304704-comment:3685981</id>
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		    <title>MBH Commented on The Spot-Light and the Flood-Light by MBH</title>
		        
			<published>2009-11-29T22:52:16Z</published>
			   <updated>2009-11-29T22:52:16Z</updated>
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		        <![CDATA[<p>Super cool!  Miguel once posted something saying that the human body contains the energy of two lightning bolts.  Certainly that would constitute "high energy" and so quantum gravity would apply to the body.  Which fits perfectly with <a href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/satyagraha/2009/11/schopenhauers-insight-and-cont.php#comment-3685272">Schopenhauer's notion</a> that the body holds a noumenal side and a phenomenal side.  The noumenal side stands outside of time -- in limitless space -- while the phenomenal side is represented <i>within</i> time.</p>

<p>I think that confirms Petr Hořava's idea through a synthetic <i>a priori</i> judgment.  </p>]]>
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	<title>MBH recommended Why Do You Believe What You Do? by Josh Marshall</title>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/2009/11/why_do_you_believe_what_you_do.php" />
   <id>tag:www.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009://2.304725</id>
  <published>2009-11-29T19:47:51Z</published>
   <updated>2009-11-29T20:08:22Z</updated>
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            <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/satyagraha//2333.304704-comment:3685758</id>
		    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/satyagraha/2009/11/the-spot-light-and-the-flood-l.php#c3685758" />
		
		    <title>MBH Commented on The Spot-Light and the Flood-Light by MBH</title>
		        
			<published>2009-11-29T18:05:18Z</published>
			   <updated>2009-11-29T18:05:18Z</updated>
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		        <![CDATA[<p>You're so right about time.  We tend to think of time as fundamental.  Really it's just a convention we use to measure movement.  Any "science" which assumes the reality of time -- as most do -- is unscientific.</p>]]>
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            <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/satyagraha//2333.304704-comment:3685753</id>
		    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/satyagraha/2009/11/the-spot-light-and-the-flood-l.php#c3685753" />
		
		    <title>MBH Commented on The Spot-Light and the Flood-Light by MBH</title>
		        
			<published>2009-11-29T17:57:41Z</published>
			   <updated>2009-11-29T17:57:41Z</updated>
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		        <![CDATA[<p>We're all janitors.  The lowliest of the low is the only real level there is.</p>]]>
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            <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/dikkday48yahoocom//5214.304681-comment:3685719</id>
		    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/dikkday48yahoocom/2009/11/lets-really-piss-them-off.php#c3685719" />
		
		    <title><![CDATA[MBH Commented on LET&apos;S REALLY PISS THEM OFF: A Proper Curriculum For the Budding DUDE by dickday]]></title>
		        
			<published>2009-11-29T17:14:23Z</published>
			   <updated>2009-11-29T17:14:23Z</updated>
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		        <![CDATA[<p>No <i>Woo</i> peed on my rug.</p>]]>
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	<title><![CDATA[MBH recommended LET&apos;S REALLY PISS THEM OFF: A Proper Curriculum For the Budding DUDE by dickday]]></title>
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   <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/dikkday48yahoocom//5214.304681</id>
  <published>2009-11-29T15:08:19Z</published>
   <updated>2009-11-29T15:01:36Z</updated>
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	<entry>
		
	<title>MBH recommended Clearing Brush by moat</title>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/moat/2009/01/clearing-brush.php" />
   <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/moat//4570.252528</id>
  <published>2009-01-19T21:52:32Z</published>
   <updated>2009-01-19T23:23:53Z</updated>
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			<entry>
            <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/satyagraha//2333.304631-comment:3685480</id>
		    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/satyagraha/2009/11/schopenhauers-insight-and-cont.php#c3685480" />
		
		    <title><![CDATA[MBH Commented on Schopenhauer&apos;s Insight and Contemporary Science by MBH]]></title>
		        
			<published>2009-11-29T01:03:38Z</published>
			   <updated>2009-11-29T01:03:38Z</updated>
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		        <![CDATA[<p>And what if the brain itself is a metaphor?</p>]]>
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            <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/satyagraha//2333.304631-comment:3685370</id>
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		    <title><![CDATA[MBH Commented on Schopenhauer&apos;s Insight and Contemporary Science by MBH]]></title>
		        
			<published>2009-11-28T21:51:07Z</published>
			   <updated>2009-11-28T21:51:07Z</updated>
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		        <![CDATA[<p>Great call.  The language comes from the ways of on-going interactions.</p>]]>
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            <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/satyagraha//2333.304631-comment:3685335</id>
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		    <title><![CDATA[MBH Commented on Schopenhauer&apos;s Insight and Contemporary Science by MBH]]></title>
		        
			<published>2009-11-28T20:59:06Z</published>
			   <updated>2009-11-28T20:59:06Z</updated>
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		        <![CDATA[<p>I should say: in addition to the bare consciousness from which we all start, we have the language we're using to ask the question <i>what is the world</i>.  So we have several artifacts at our disposal, just no first principles.  </p>]]>
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            <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/satyagraha//2333.304631-comment:3685326</id>
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		    <title><![CDATA[MBH Commented on Schopenhauer&apos;s Insight and Contemporary Science by MBH]]></title>
		        
			<published>2009-11-28T20:44:24Z</published>
			   <updated>2009-11-28T20:44:24Z</updated>
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		        <![CDATA[<p>I am genuinely honored.  Thanks dd.  </p>]]>
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            <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/satyagraha//2333.304631-comment:3685317</id>
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		    <title><![CDATA[MBH Commented on Schopenhauer&apos;s Insight and Contemporary Science by MBH]]></title>
		        
			<published>2009-11-28T20:24:57Z</published>
			   <updated>2009-11-28T20:24:57Z</updated>
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		        <![CDATA[<p>There's so much truth in that.  Wittgenstein's first principle of the Tractus is that <i>the world is all that is the case</i>.  What ends up happening though -- as he tries to expand from that -- is difficulty with what we mean when we refer to 'the world'.  We're not talking about the objective world unless we're making judgments from an objective perspective.  But he's in a pickle.  He's one man, speaking from a limited perspective.  So, he knows that even his first principle is incomplete: 'the world' -- from an objective perspective -- is not a place to which we can prescribe knowledge from a individual perspective.  In that way, no one could <i>ever</i> generate first principles that are objectively correct.  But at the same time, we have this thing from which we all start -- a bare consciousness (in Thich Naht Hahn's sense).  But <i>that</i> we can only experience.  We can stay connected to it.  But we can talk about the implications of it -- things like morality and systems of ethics.  But <i>it itself</i> is a Presence we just have to accept as everywhere. </p>]]>
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            <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/satyagraha//2333.304631-comment:3685282</id>
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		    <title><![CDATA[MBH Commented on Schopenhauer&apos;s Insight and Contemporary Science by MBH]]></title>
		        
			<published>2009-11-28T19:28:43Z</published>
			   <updated>2009-11-28T19:28:43Z</updated>
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		        <![CDATA[<p>Maybe a further clarification: the noumena is, I think, identical with Thich Nhat Hahn's use of <i>bare consciousness</i>.  The workings of the body's systems are the phenomenal side of bare consciousness.</p>

<p>So we're not, as Copleston supposes, stuck with Kant's conclusion.  </p>]]>
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