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Paul Kennedy raises dead economists to get thoughts on Zombies- Weekend Bash Edition!


Editors note: The editorial referenced here was proudly lifted from: www.ft.com/capitalismblog  (feel free to lift the comments, particularly if they are good)


Its the weekend! and I thought a good time for a themed bash.  Here at the cafe, we seemed to be blessed with a fair number of econ experts lurking around these parts, and I thought some of them might want to grab an amphora and join us in a classic greek symposium on the Financial Crisis!!!

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I am also thinking that the coming change of seasons might be a good time to reflect back on the underpinnings of our economic order.  Specifically, some of the profound thinkers on whose shoulders we now again stand upon...but this time facing a cliff.


So we have dug 'em up and shared our best uppers and they are here now ready to tell us how to solve everything.  Just remember, drink deeply.  For those of us whose econ is a little rusty there is a link under each contributers picture taking you to some sort of rendition of their work. But don't worry to much, the salient stuff will be skimmed over in the key note address. 


Because I am too lazy to write the piece myself I enlisted a teacher famous for his work on the mechanics of piston operations under Great Powers, Mr. Paul Kennedy. He graciously wrote this essay in todays'  Finanacial times


Todays Round table discussion will feature the following commentators: 


Adam Smith ponders the


Adam 'my middle name ain't lassie faire, I'm Scottish! Smith


"My god, what happen to your morals?"





Karl 'I am not a marxist' Marx . 


"Collapse did it, who'd a thought!! Ha!                    


Now Scandinavia, what a place!.,,    .               


uh .why is everyone 

giving me that look?




Joesph Schumpeter 


"oh jeez you woke me up for this? Can Capitalism survive? no I don't think it can.  But maybe this quote is helpful: Bureaucracy is not an obstacle to democracy but an inevitable complement to it."  




John Maynard Keynes



with his wife, Ballerina Lydia Lopokova 

(once a bloomsbury hippy always a bloomsbury hippy)



"Oh good, finally you have called me back to fix Bretton Woods, About time, I have been worried about the inevitable imbalances for a very long time.."









Read the big four to know capital's fate

By Paul Kennedy\Published: March 12 2009 20:42 

What, then, is capitalism's future? Our current, damaged system is not, despite Marx's hopes, to be replaced by a totally egalitarian, communist society (such arrangements might be there in life after death). Our future political economy will probably not be one in which Smith or his present-day disciples could find much comfort: there will be a higher-than-welcome degree of government interference in "the market", somewhat larger taxes and heavy public disapprobation of the profit principle in general. Schumpeter and Keynes, one suspects, will feel rather more at home with our new post-excess neocapitalist political economy. It will be a system where the animal spirits of the market will be closely watched (and tamed) by a variety of national and international zookeepers - a taming of which the great bulk of the spectators will heartily approve - but there will be no ritual murder of the free-enterprise principle, even if we have to plunge further into depression for the next years. Homus Economicus will take a horrible beating. But capitalism, in modified form, will not disappear. Like democracy, it has serious flaws - but, just as one find faults with democracy, the critics of capitalism will discover that all other systems are worse. Political economy tells us so.

But what has happened over the past decade or more is that many governments let down their guard and allowed nimble, profit-seeking individuals, banks, insurance companies and hedge funds much greater scope to create new investment schemes, leverage more and more capital on the basis of increasingly thin real resources and widen dramatically the pool of gullible victims (silly, under-earning individuals, hopeful not-for-profits, Jewish charities, friends of a friend of an investment manager, the list is long), thereby creating our own era's spectacular equivalent of the South Sea Bubble. As in all such gigantic credit "busts", many millions more people - the innocent as well as the foolish - will be hurt than the snake-oil salesmen and loan managers who perpetrated these so-called "wealth creation" schemes.

US presidents, in confronting crises, have often let it be known that they are serious students of history and biography. George W. Bush, an unusually voracious late-night reader, devours books on the lives of Great Men, including his hero Winston Churchill, (who in turn liked to read about his illustrious ancestor, Marlborough). Barack Obama looks to biographies of Abraham Lincoln for inspiration.
Given the enormity of the banking, credit and trade crisis, might it be worth suggesting to Mr Obama and his fellow leaders that they study the writings of the greatest of the world's political economists, instead? After all, we may be in such a grim economic condition that the clever direction of budgets is a greater attribute of leadership than the stout direction of battleships.

Since today's leaders cannot possibly read all the major works of political economy, let us help them by selecting four of the greatest names from Robert Heilbroner's classic collection The Worldly Philosophers : The Lives, Times, and Ideas of the Great Economic Thinkers: Adam Smith, the virtual founder of the discipline and early apostle of free trade; Karl Marx, that penetrating critic of the foibles of capitalism, and less reliable predictor of its "inevit-able" collapse; Joseph Schumpeter, the brilliant and unorthodox Austrian who was certainly no foe of the capitalist system but warned of its inherent volatilities (its "perennial gale of creative destruction"); and that great brain, John Maynard Keynes, who spent the second half of his astonishing career seeking to find policies to rescue the same temperamental free-market order from crashing to the ground.

Perhaps the supremely gifted playwright Tom Stoppard could put those four savants on stage and offer an imaginary weekend-long quadrilateral discourse among them about the future of capitalism. Failing such a creative work, what might we imagine the four great political economists would say about our present economic crisis?
 Ingram Pinn illustration

Smith, one imagines, would claim that he had never advocated total laissez faire, was appalled at how sub-prime loans to fiscally insecure people contradicted his devotion to moral economy, and was concerned at the deficit spending proposed by many governments. Marx would still be badly bruised by learning of Lenin and Stalin's perversion of his communistic theories, and by the post-1989 withering-away of most of the world's socialist economies; yet he might still feel pleasure at modern financial capitalism foundering on its contradictions. The austere Schumpeter, by contrast, might be lecturing us to swallow another decade of serious depression before a newer, leaner form of capitalism emerged again, though with lots of evidence of severe gale-damage (the end of the US car industry, the decline of the City of London, perhaps) in its wake.

And Keynes? My own guess is that he would not be very happy at today's state of affairs. He might (only might) regard it as fine that he was quoted or misquoted millions of times in today's media, but one suspects that he would be uneasy at parts of Mr Obama's deficit-spending scheme: at the US Treasury's proposal to allocate more money to buying bad debts and rescuing bad banks than investing in job creation; at a Washington spending spree that seems unco-ordinated with those of Britain, Japan, China and the rest; and, most unsettling of all, at the fact that no one is asking who will purchase the $1,750bn of US Treasuries to be offered to the market this year - will it be the east Asian quartet, China, Japan, Taiwan and South Korea (all with their own catastrophic collapses in production), the uneasy Arab states (yes, but to perhaps one-tenth of what is needed), or the near-bankrupt European and South American states? Good luck! If that colossal amount of paper is bought this year, who will have ready funds to purchase the Treasury flotations of 2010, then 2011, as the US plunges into levels of indebtedness that could make Philip II of Spain's record seem austere by comparison?

In the larger sense, of course, all four of our philosophers would be correct. Capitalism - our ability to buy and sell, move money around as we wish, and to turn a profit by doing so - is in deep trouble. No doubt Smith, as he watches the collapse of Iceland and the Irish travails, is reconsidering his aphorism that little else is needed to create a prosperous state than "peace, easy taxes and tolerable administration of justice" - that did not work this time. By contrast, rumbles of satisfaction might be heard coming from Marx's grave in Highgate cemetery, causing excitement for the still-considerable numbers of Chinese visitors. Meanwhile, Schumpeter will have due cause to mutter: "This is not a surprise, really." As for Keynes, we might imagine him sipping tea with Wittgenstein at Grantchester meadows, pursing his lips at the incapacity of merely normal human beings to get things right: at our tendency to excessive optimism, our blindness to the signs of economic over-heating, our proneness to panic - and our need, every so often, to turn to clever men like himself to put the shattered Humpty-Dumpty of international capitalism back together again.

All these political economists instinctively recognised that the triumph of free-market forces - with the consequent elimination of older social contracts, the downgrading of the state over the individual, the end of restraints upon usury - would not only bring greater wealth to many but could also produce significant, possibly unintended consequences that would ripple through entire societies. Laissez faire, laissez aller was not only a call to those chafing under medieval, hierarchical constraints; it was also a call to unbind Prometheus. Logically, it both freed you from the chains of a pre-market age, and freed you to the risks of financial and social disaster. In the place of Augustinian rules came Bernie Madoff opportunities.

By the same instinctive reasoning, most sensible governments since Smith's time have taken precautions against citizens' totally unrestricted pursuit of private advantage. States have invoked the needs of national security (therefore you must protect certain industries, even if that is uneconomic), the desire for social stability (therefore do not allow 1 per cent of the population to own 99 per cent of its wealth and thus provoke civil riot), and the common sense of spending upon public goods (therefore invest in highways, schools and fire-brigades). In fact, with the exception of the few absurdly communist states such as North Korea, all of today's many political economies lie along a recognisable spectrum of more-free-market versus less-free-market arrangements.


Now I am sure that you all have some very important thoughts ready to get up on the board.  But in case your stuck, or looking for some ideas, or maybe something to get you in the mood.  I have prepared this fun video with girls singing through a retail shop getting items ready for the party. 

If your still stuck I can offer the following hints: durable goods, means of production, how last years' model is so creatively destroyed, And since we're not in it for the long run just where exactly are we going to dig (what tools)?  

Oh and DickDay promised Free Jello shots for the commenter who first spies a us origin product. You don't want to miss that.



 



What do you guys think? Is Kennedy right?  And don't forget the amphora!

Late Update- Amike modified the title (see below)

51 Comments

| Leave a comment
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Oh I forgot to plug the book. The worldly philosophers is a fantastic read. Despite its simplicity I think it should be mandatory course at a certain prestigious northwestern college.

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This is incredible. You present your documentary/variety show all at once. I will have to come back. I need to see what others say.

I will say that in 1968 it appeared that the end of the world was near. That does not even count my experience in elementary school when I was constantly being warned that it was the end of the world.

I do not think that we are witnessing the end of capitalism. The repubs would actually enjoy that. A complete and total oligarchy would emerge. The 1% that own 40% of everything would increase their holdings to 60% or more. hhahahaha

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DD, Don't forget the jello shots. We got some sharped eyed shooters in the crowd! ;)

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How appropriate to raise dead economists to discuss zombie banks. I think Schumpeter would have at least one "I told you so" as he noted the change from owner/entrepreneurial capitalism to managerial capitalism.

For the jello shots--I going to finagle a guess and bet that the shopping cart itself was either an American product or produced under an American patent.

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Ha! thats brilliant, I'm tempted to rename.

Yes, that would have been in fitting with Schumpeter. I also would have loved to see marx's response to schumpeter's 'i told you so' prescription to socialism. That would have been an absolutely fascinating conversation. Probably pretty smoky though.

Shopping cart huh? I was going to let you down softly but then you throw in patent and now I am going to have check with management. hmmh Japan and their laws.

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gunning for that jello shot:
- US origin Demilitarized ICBM silos

With natural radiation-based heating!!

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'fraid you're shooting blanks, my friend.

Damn pretty gun though, green, and on ebay too. Definite style points.

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Um, jello shotz?

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I like you're thinking...

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damn! can I appeal?! hahah!
Ok - a try at the other thing now. I'll take a shot at this sentence

"all of today's many political economies lie along a recognisable spectrum of more-free-market versus less-free-market arrangements"

and I say: really? I'm not sure how to recognize more-free-market from less-fm. Take the US labor market - more or less free than Denmark's labor market? There's a lot less freedom in the US market than the Danish one - if you're a worker. Your health care there isn't tied to your current employer, you don't face poverty if you're fired, or if you leave, you have pretty much freedom to organize as labor. There's also pretty much as much freedom for employers to fire employees. Though employers are less free to discriminate on irrelevant basis (sex, etc) in Denmark.

Or compare the two mortgage markets: US has a completely deregulated mortgage market. Denmark has a highly regulated mortgage market. Is the former freeer? Well, insofar as externalities are not taken into account - that investor losses on mortgages are passed on to the tax-payer, does that make the US more or less free than Denmark - where regulations are there to ensure externalities do not occur?

I could go on. But short question: how do you recognize freedom?

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In the case I think the author is just stating that it is not a command system, like a lord having his serfs plant so much corn.

I guess you are hitting to the heart of something that I think is why I decided to post Kennedy's article (oh and I had some great pictures). That our focus on "freedom' is somewhat misleading.

Not very many serious people would dispute Kennedy's choice of these four as the preeminent economists, sure there were a lot of others whose work was important, but these guys were the modern game changers, they redefined the study of economics. They understood how it worked and most significantly what . Here is how Kennedy' puts it:

All these political economists instinctively recognised that the triumph of free-market forces - with the consequent elimination of older social contracts, the downgrading of the state over the individual, the end of restraints upon usury - would not only bring greater wealth to many but could also produce significant, possibly unintended consequences that would ripple through entire societies.Laissez faire, laissez aller was not only a call to those chafing under medieval, hierarchical constraints; it was also a call to unbind Prometheus. Logically, it both freed you from the chains of a pre-market age, and freed you to the risks of financial and social disaster. In the place of Augustinian rules came Bernie Madoff opportunities.

This almost correct, but buries the lede. They didn't just see the possibilities of risk, in fact all four recognized that self destruction is inherent to the freemarket system. That is the need for a strong counterbalancing force.

For smith it was Christian morality and charity with strong national defense. Marx's Das Capital, labors to show how the math of the system inevitably leads to acclimation of wealth at the top (nobody has really disputed his math they just ignore him). He jumped ahead and applied the dialectic. Shumpterer impressed by the math but not Marz's political naivety saw that the system would require entities to both temper the extremes and to manage the externalities. Keynes takes this even further.

So what happened happened? How did economics get so systematically hijacked that we regularly graduated PHD's who can't explain Marx's theory of value, or know about Smith's 'theory of moral sentiments' or the full story behind 'creative destruction' But they can draw you a mean Laffer curve.

What happened to the sense of historical perspective?

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I was sitting in a macro class when one of the students said something about capitalism was perfect. The prof said, No, it is just the best we have now. After class I walked by some students talking about reporting the prof for being a communist. That is how most Americans think of economics, especially those that are serving in congress right now.

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Interesting anecdote! God, I hope my students aren't like that. lol!

I don't have a problem with Capitalism per se. I have a problem with regarding what we now have as in fact being capitalism. It's a series of sector-specific cartels.

I see these slogans by supposed 'moderates' such as 'market economy but not a market society'. And I find them strange. As if we can separate out exactly the market component from all our other social activities. We really need to put back the 'social' in economics as a 'social science'. Though that doesn't make me a socialist. Or it shouldn't.

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Great remarks Sal! Just got back to this. I'm not so much worried about any 'historical perspective'. I think you can do pretty much any discipline well without knowing too much about the history of the discipline. But they're pretending economics is a hard science when it very much isn't. They think it's like physics where the atomic particles are these objects obeying rational choice theory. Which it isn't. All very strange...

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Thats a good insight.

Like string theorists so enamored with the beauty of the equations that actual physical evidence is immaterial.

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Laissez faire, laissez aller was not only a call to those chafing under medieval, hierarchical constraints; it was also a call to unbind Prometheus.

More like keeping Sisyphus busy with cyclical contractions dreaming of a promethean breakout to end all breakouts.

Is Kennedy right about... a spectrum of more and less? Sure, one can make that frame and use it, though I don't see the utility besides that of cafe society chat such as we engage in here.

Here is another frame: Localism and globalism, and an old quip to go with it: Think globally, act locally.


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Um, see my reply to obey, I think it is incredibly important and well beyond the confines of cafe society. Also I took the bait to your full capacity question over in reich's blog.

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You mean this one:

"What happened to the sense of historical perspective?"?

That's not much on point in re my comment. I suggested an alternative or two:

More like keeping Sisyphus busy with cyclical contractions dreaming of a promethean breakout to end all breakouts.

Is Kennedy right about... a spectrum of more and less? Sure, one can make that frame and use it, though I don't see the utility besides that of cafe society chat such as we engage in here.

Here is another frame: Localism and globalism, and an old quip to go with it: Think globally, act locally.


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Political Economy is not equal to Economics.

All the Economists are brain dead.

All the Political Economists are dead.

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You know Quinn, once again I think you have nailed it on the head.

Damn. Care to try for the prize too?

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Too easy. 'YouTube."

Line 'em up, Dick.

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That is pretty good. I had to read the site twice to get your joke. I am so dense tonite. Actually every nite. Of course it is UTube. Or the embedding but I do not have enough tech. I owe you six jello shots.

They were out of jello so is pudding ok?

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Awesome. I literally just ate my last two puddings, Dick.

Chocolate Fudge, bartender. And keep 'em comin'. ;-)

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DING DING DING!

Wow, two for two! Really thought I was being clever on that one.

I am in awe!

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Hell, I didn't have a clue if it was right, but when you grow up one of 9 kids, and there's food on the line, you gotta go for it. ;-)

Interesting piece, Saladin. The destruction of real economic thinkers - people who knew history, thought about morality, had some sense that economic activity was embedded - I regard it as one of the great academic crimes. The assholes who took over got awards, awards for squeezing "freedom" down to the thinnest flattest possible conception, one suitable for bumper-stickers, printed them out & stuck them on the front of their whirling little machines... programmed by a backroom full of number-crunching math dips... and all on behalf of a bunch of uber-rich scumlords. Intellectual progress. Apparently it's inevitable. The towering minds of our last 20 years.

Spittoon, please?

As you can tell, I'm holding back what I really think, in the interests of decorum. ;-)

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It would be better if silly, lightweight David Brooksian-type columns like this one from historian and no economist Paul Kennedy never saw the light of day.

The present crisis has nothing to do with capitalism and everything to do with banking, money and credit -- economic activities which predate capitalism by centuries.

I suspect Kennedy knows it but to keep up the fiction that a name-dropping historian has something to add to the discussion, chooses to pretend that he doesn't.

An utter waste of the efforts of the poor little tree that gave up its life in order that Paul Kennedy would have newsprint sufficient to remind us that he hasn't passed away yet -- a shame.

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Ellen, how nice of you to drop by. But please tell me how you really feel?

I felt it was a whisical brooksian column that brought up some interesting points that are germane to today's cultural discussion over nationalizing the banks. The right fulminates over dear leader's slouch towards socialism and I thought this brought up some good points- plus I had these fun pictures (side note: should we really be giving brooks his own adjective? Isn't that guy arrogant enough?)


The present crisis has nothing to do with capitalism and everything to do with banking, money and credit -- economic activities which predate capitalism by centuries

Really? I thought that Capitalism was the name of an economic system where wealth and the ability to make wealth are privately owned. Don't we create wealth with private banks(even the fed)? Why? Isn't that an issue in the discussion over nationalism, and Obama's proposed budget?

What is wrong with going to the sources and seeing what they might have say? (I'm hoping you respond with historic examples of banking crisis in non capitalist economies)

Yes finance has been evolving since the medici, and money we have had since hammurabi. But Finance can not be seperated from the economic system it exits in. So if it has a crisis it is logical to examine the system. The boom busted, then the liquidity crunch ensued not vice versa.

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First the housekeeping details: Notwithstanding my basic disinclination to add "followees" (since the time embraced by one's (spiritedly yclept) "dashboard" diminishes exponentially as one adds) and given, moreover, that for the most part only posters with obviously female pix make the cut in any case, I am yet moved by the Keynes/Lopokova hippy reference to click the box.

That said, I shall return after a brief perusal of the material at hand...

Carry on.

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I'm honored JR, and let me say, I can't wait to see you get back on the pole. I know you've still got the moves.

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on the pole

This is just so wrong in so many ways, one hardly knows where to begin....oddly enough, emulating simultaneously Tom Cruise and George H.W. Bush, only last week, I proclaimed Operation *Urgent Renovation to be in effect.


*Two weeks until a friend's birthday party at which an infra-red sauna will be deployed as part of the festivities.


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Operation *Urgent Renovation

Heh,heh, heh, there I go again, conflating Reagan and Bush Pere.

I had Operation Urgent Freedom (Grenada) mixed up with Operation Just Cause(Panama).

(I'm waiting for "Operation Fuck You Up Just Because We Feel Testy"--truth in packaging...)


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I pretty much though that was Iraq...

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Why, so it was.

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You're on a roll, J-Roger.

(And agreed. That "pole" reference was worrying....)

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Oh jeeze, I was just referencing your awesome Bio.

You can't win em all.

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referencing

Indeed, and it is, perhaps, to your credit that you are unable to stretch your imagination (forbid, angels and ministers of grace!) to the use by your *male stripper, of the (ubiquitous amongst girl strippers, and praise Jesus for it!) floor to ceiling gymnastic apparatus colloquially dubbed "the pole".

Anent that other usage of the word, I am obliged by serendipity to report that this morning, at about 1:00 am, just such a one of those aforementioned girl strippers *won my heart by telling me I had "such a pretty dick".

What can I say? I'm easy.


*Actually, I was already in love with her, but this just really sealed the deal...

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Now Sal, before you rush off to conclusions about what jolly means when he says "pretty d#@k", I suggest you sleep on it.

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"pretty d#@k"

I had never heard that exact expression before my self....You can see how it would get a guy's attention...

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Handsome Dick?

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Handsome...?

Ummm, I don't know. That doesn't have quite the same panache

Besides, that might be confused for an encomium of brother Day's visage

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These old men do not understand that finance has cut itself free from capitalism (understood as the private ownership of the factors required for the production of goods and services).

The FIRE industry is what brought down and continues to bring down the economic system -- not capitalism.

The acts of acquiring consumer goods (credit card debt, HELOCs, MEWs, etc.) including residences (mortgages) or businesses (private equity M&As) lead to the production of no new marketable goods or services. Thus, they have nothing to do with capitalism. On the same grounds contracts intended to transfer the risk of a harmful future event, also, have nothing to do with capitalism.

Pointing to capitalism when banking and insurance is burning down the house constitutes obscurantist rhetoric and is, quite likely, knowingly misdirected.

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Just for clarity, you're saying that the FIRE sector, the buying and selling of businesses, and more widely, all consumer marketplaces and their transactions - have "nothing to do with capitalism?" Because capitalism is simply the private ownership of the factors of production.

But isn't one of the rights of private ownership to use and dispose of an asset? Which would mean it's part of "capitalism if it sits there, still within capitalism while it produces, but as soon as it is purchased, it temporarily exits capitalism? and the same for its products?

Or with a home computer or business. When I buy it, it's not part of capitalism. If I use it just to acquire products - not capitalism. But as soon as I produce something on it, it re-enters capitalism?

And also, that the FIRE sector, and any/all consumer or corporate marketplaces not directly associated with buying a factor of production, are not regarded as producing a good or a service?

Is this what you're saying, too broad, or at the wrong tangent?

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While I might not put it exactly as you have, I wont take exception to your description and examples.

The semantic error now current is to conflate savings with capital. Savings is a monetary claim on future goods and services; only when it is deployed to acquire factors of production does it become capital. Intermediaries may infrequently* assist in that deployment and then, should properly be described as handmaidens of capitalism.

In deciding whether FIRE or Capitalism should be preeminent, we should follow Humpty Dumpty's wise semantic advice: "The question is which is to be master - that's all."

* The great majority of capital factors are acquired out of retained earnings.

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First banking and now FIRE. Got it. Don't disagree, they are burning down the house to line their own pockets. However not sure how you can say FIRE industry is not a factor producing a good or service. I mean you even site residences as consumer good. What the hell is the RE of FIRE then?

“Landlords, like all other men, love to reap where they never sowed” karl marx

I think you have a good insight about the actual benefits, or societal value of the financial industry 'products', but they are services that most of us have paid for. So existential questions aside, they are obviously services and therefor fall under our shared definition.

Capitalism is about private owners deciding the most productive concentration of capital- if that is futures markets, so what, capitalism doesn't moralize. Read the post or the book to find other 'economists' who disagree with the lack of discernment.

If you are implying the Financial times is distracting for posting the post. Well you're probably right, but they are very good insights that are very relevant in our political understanding of our times. It is easy to forget that the last century was defined by horrific wars over these very questions.

However I would ask you how should we direct our attention towards FIRE's abuses?

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In discussing capitalism one is frequently met with the difficulty of determining whether one's interlocutor is really embarked upon a discussion of commercialism, economic individualism, economic liberalism, free competition, free cooperation, free economy, free enterprise, free-enterprise economy, free-enterprise system, free exchange, free market, free-market capitalism, free-market economy, free-market liberalism, free-market system, free trade, individualism, industrialism, laissez-faire, laissez-faire capitalism, laissez-faire liberalism, liberalism, market capitalism, market economy, market liberalism, market system, mercantilism, mutual aid, mutual exchange, open competition, open cooperation, open economy, open exchange, open market, private enterprise, self-regulating market, unhampered market, voluntary competition, voluntary cooperation, voluntary exchange, voluntary market -- one or all under the rubric of capitalism.

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Nice list, good insight, non answer.

Seems to me that a system currently allowing a few private owners to loot us all, might call into question some of the philosophic precepts of that system.

Maybe we are making a mistake allowing FIRE to be privately controlled, should we examine other possibilities. In some countries, e.g. China, the government still maintains ultimate control of FIRE despite having adopted most of the trappings of free market capitalism.

Our system is flawed and not working very well for at least 20% of us in this country and another few billion throughout the world, how can or should we improve it?

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Nice list

Ellen, unlike those of us cast adrift entirely from legacy media, still owns a Thesaurus.

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I figured she pulled out the ol' trusty Encyclopedia Brittanica.

On another note, my answer makes me sound quite the Marxist. Hmm, didn't quite mean that.

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In all of this I keep coming back to the expression we've all heard. Money is fungible.

That statement is no more true when you look at the performance of individual 401K and IRA retirement vehicles since Bush came into office. All across the board growth in both these was dismal at best and well below historic norms for any similar period since 401K and IRA were created by congress. In contrast, persons at the top of the heap showed handsome earnings growth across the same period. If you believe the reports of the earnings differential between these two it raises some alarms.

The lesson here is that the altered scheme of funding retirement introduced by 401K and IRA is not in the best interest of workers. Regular wage earners just can't take on the risk of investment in this way. Tens of millions of workers have taken a huge hit in this and won't be able to actually retire in any proper sense. A majority of boomers are facing a bleak future all around.

When it comes to the fungible part, we have a condition where the 401K and IRA savings of those wage earners was effectively in the same pile with all other investments. Those savings were ultimately managed by or invested in the same very large financial entities which caused the collapse.

If you have millions upon millions you can squeak by in retirement. That just isn't the case for most wage earners and never will be.

This is just one more thing that needs to be examined and perhaps changed. We need some serious restructuring of our financial system to relieve inequities and to assure this doesn't happen again.

Congress is a real mess. I have grave doubts they have the will to make the regulatory adjustments that are very necessary. Our political system is screwed up. If dems want to stay in power they can't make the necessary regulatory adjustments. Without Wall Street campaign dollars they'll have no chance in 2010. This is arguably a corrupt scheme and just one more thing that needs changing. Anything short of all citizens hammering our lawmakers this won't change and will likely get worse. In true fact we have evolved a hybridized form of governance which is a cross between democracy and capitalism. That it doesn't work very well is all too evident. In consideration of the fact that the system is peopled by individuals who have a vested interest in continuing it, I don't see how it is going to change.

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Fantastic post and discussion. I'd say that looking backwards to better understand the present can definitely have it's benefits. Obama certainly is aware of economic history (at least I hope I'm right about that) and that's why it seems likely that a move toward serious regulation is underway. Right now his econ team has a concrete plan but the politics of implementing it is quite fluid. Of course, I like everyone else wish I knew exactly what the complete plan looked like. I'm optimistic these days though so methinks progress is on the horizon.

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Saladin

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If we are getting along please call me Sal, if for some reason we are not Saladin Is fine.

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