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The Constitution Supersedes Treaties


Now that apologists for Obama are trying to justify his plans for indefinite “preventive detention” with a perverted application of the Geneva Conventions’ allowance for detaining prisoners of war for the duration of a war, and some especially devoted Obamabots are even claiming that international treaties like the Geneva Conventions supersede the Constitution, and can accordingly over-rule the due process provisions of the Bill of Rights, it’s probably worth recalling that the Supreme Court has already definitively ruled against this ludicrous interpretation of Article VI of the Constitution in Reid v.Covert.

The majority opinion in Reid v. Covert is clear enough…

The United States is entirely [354 U.S. 1, 6] a creature of the Constitution. Its power and authority have no other source. It can only act in accordance with all the limitations imposed by the Constitution.

(Quoting Article VI, Clause 2…) “This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land … ”

There is nothing in this language which intimates that treaties and laws enacted pursuant to them do not have to comply with the provisions of the Constitution.

Nor is there anything in the debates which accompanied the drafting and ratification of the Constitution which even suggests such a result.

“The United States is entirely a creature of the Constitution. It can only act in accordance with all the limitations imposed by the Constitution.”

I can’t imagine how this language could be any clearer.

It’s also probably worth mentioning that no Declaration of War has been voted by the Congress, and therefore the United States is not at war, as defined by the Constitution.

The detainees at Guantanamo and elsewhere are not “prisoners of war.” They are simply the victims of a rogue executive branch of the United States government, which has illegally abrogated and continues to abrogate the due process provisions of the United States Constitution.


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I can’t imagine how this language could be any clearer.
That may be.
It is the case that numerous decisions over time have had erroneous assertions and conclusions, and I don't doubt more than a few are outright duplicitous.
I'm reminded of a case in which Scalia wrote the majority opinion in regards to corporate personhood. In his opinion he referred to an older case (circa 1880s?), and stated that Such vs. So supports the claim of personal rights for corporations. Except, that wasn't true. The notes regarding that case, and a summation, made that claim, but the decision in the case was quite the opposite.
It so happened that the clerk who assembled the notes and composed the summation did so in a fashion that turned the actual case decision on its head. Turned out that clerk had some ties to the corporation whose personhood was at issue.
So - Scalia's claim in the opinion was untrue. Whether he knew that - I guess it would depend on whether he actually read the case that he cited.

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That's a good story!

I agree that Justices make a lot of mistakes, but most of them show up within 50 years... and Reid v. Covert came down in 1957, written by Hugo Black and endorsed by Justices Douglas, Frankfurter, Brennan, and Warren.

That's a lot of brains behind the decision, and since it also follows the plainest possible reading of Article VI, I can't believe that Reid v. Covert is in much danger of being overturned...

...or, at least...

...not until...

Change hath broken down
All things save Beauty alone.

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Ok this is a nit pick. The Afghan & Iraq Wars have been approved by Congress. Afghan War: S.J. Res. 23 September 14, 2001
The Iraq War: H.J. Res. 114, October 16, 2002.

As military engagements approved by Congress you could argue that prisoners captured in these engagements are prisoners of war.

Do not forget Vietnam fell into the same category. A military engagement approved by Congress not a full blown declaration of war. And there were a number of POWs on both sides in this conflict.

Also look at Korea. There was no declaration of war or approval of congress for a military engagement. Truman said he didn't need it because of the UN resolution. Yet we held any number of Chinese and North Korean soldiers as POWs.

Look I am not defending our indefinite hold of prisoners. My point is I don't think your argument will hold up as the reason we cannot do it.

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Thanks for your thoughtful comment, Foxie!

I agree with most of it, but within the context of the Constitution, "war" requires a declaration by Congress, and without that declaration, it ain't a "war!"

Those dead white males who framed the Constitution apparently agreed...

As to the Philadelphia Convention and the intent of the American founders, there was only one delegate who suggested giving the Executive the power to take offensive military action: Pierce Butler of South Carolina.[1] He suggested the president should be able to, but in practice would have the character not to do so without mass support. Elbridge Gerry, a delegate from Massachusetts, summed up the majority viewpoint saying he "never expected to hear in a republic a motion to empower the Executive alone to declare war." George Mason, Thomas Jefferson, and others voiced similar sentiments.
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From a strict constructionist point of view you are correct. Thus it would be an interesting case to put before our present Supreme Court. How would the strict constructionist on the bench decide? Would Scalia, Alito et al side with you or would they waffle and decide fear overrides the constitution.

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I have a feeling Scalia et al. would endorse something not too far from the "unitary executive," if they ever get another Republican executive back in the White House.

Bush could have probably gotten a formal declaration of war from the terrified Congress for either Afghanistan or Iraq, and although there were some significant logictics problems with when to declare war on Iraq, because there had to be a pretense of letting the inspections run their course while we piled up troops in Kuwait... in the case of Afghanistan, it seems like more a matter of style than anything else.

Congress would have given Bush whatever he wanted, and why he wanted an authorization to use force instead of a declaration of war...

I don't know.

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If you go back and listen to Obama's speech about Gitmo on the day Cheney spoke, he called the 'detainees' POW's.

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As usual, you confuse cherry picking some quotes out of stuff you found on the Internet but haven't taken the time to truly digest or understand with knowing what you're talking about. And hey, why not? Its a pandemic affliction among people who can't remember a time before the Internet.

Reid v. Covert dealt with whether U.S. citizens are entitled to Constitutional protections from the U.S. government when they are, for some reason, subject to U.S. jurisdiction while abroad. It does not deal with the rights of foreign nationals captured on foreign soil by U.S. military personnel while engaged in military operations against hostile forces. The Constitutional rights of foreign nationals engaged in hostile military operations--even when captured on U.S. soil--are severely circumscribed. Go read Ex Parte Quirin, 317 U.S. 1 (1942).

And, btw, if your argument that these guys are not subject to the law of war unless Congress declares war were true, that would mean that we wouldn't be bound by the requirments of the Geneva Conventions with regard to them, notwithstanding the specific provisions of those conventions to prevent states from evading treaty obligations by precisely the artifice of not fomrally declaring war.

Whether we should grant the supposely untriable detainees more rights than they are entitled to under the Constitution is a legitimate and important discussion. Vociferously arguing that they have the same rights as U.S. citizens when they don't just leads one to believe that trying to have a reasoned discussion with you is futile. Though your constant resort to attacking the motives of people who dare to disagree with you rather than addressing their arguments would be kind of a dead giveaway on that point however.

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"The Constitutional rights of foreign nationals engaged in hostile military operations--even when captured on U.S. soil--are severely circumscribed. Go read Ex Parte Quirin, 317 U.S. 1 (1942)."

The Quirin decision denied habeas corpus relief to saboteurs captured on U.S. soil who were to be tried by military commissions. The Quirin precedent was considered by the Supreme Court, but distinquished, in its decision that detainees at Guantanamo Bay had to be tried in accordance with the Uniform Code of Military Justice or in accordance with the Geneva Conventions, but that the military commissions ordered by President Bush were not sufficient. Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, 548 U.S. 557 (2006).

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thanks for the Reid v. Covert cite in my blog. In case you don't check for back-filled comment responses to blogs that have fallen off of the spool, I responded with some reflections. Truthfully, I would be very happy if this is indeed irreversible caselaw. The thought that the Constitution can be backdoor overridden through the treaty making process is frightful. Unfortunately, I do not believe this decision established that to be the case. There exists significant public perception that treaties are able to override The Constitution.

An argument used in dissent to the Law of The sea Treaty (LOST), is treaty's self-executing amendment process is binding on all signatories, and would strip away the Senate's advice and consent power over treaties.

Current opposition to the Inter-American Convention against the Illicit Manufacturing and Trafficking in Firearms treaty (CIFTA), and to a UN brokered treaty to limit arms exports globally, is grounded on the assumption that treaties are able to trump the Second Amendment.

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Even for a semi-literate clown who can't even read my diary without attributing five or six opinions to me which I didn't express...

Even for a semi-literate down-on-all-fours heinie-hoover for Obama...

You're unusually repulsive, NC Stevie!

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Obamabot? Semi-literate clown?

You took a valid argument against a position I presented in my blog, which was proffered by TPM member Ecclesiastes, rewrapped it up as if it were a product of your own without offering Ecclesiastes any credit, adding only invective and one Wikipedia link to it. Who is the semi-literate here? Additionally, have you no shame, plagiariser?

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That's a serious charge for a cowardly pseudonym like you to make, "PseudoCyAnts."

I post under my own name. Would you be willing to let me know your real name?

And the "comment" by Ecclesiastes which you mentioned consists of exactly three lines of text composed by Ecclesiastes, and some pasting from Findlaw.

In a case holding that the Uniform Code of Military Justice could not be applied to a civilian relative of a member of the armed forces traveling with the armed forces overseas, the Supreme Court stated:

And you don't even mention that your own idiot diary was entirely mistaken, and got the relation between treaties and the Constitution exactly backwards!

If you had the balls to post under your real name, you probably wouldn't be so quick to make actionable accusations, but I can totally understand why you don't want your ridiculous diaries to haunt you in the real world.

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Eeek! Sometimes I forget that my real name has only been mentioned about 500 times in the comments, and that I have only given out my real email address again and again, but I'm still Rutabaga here, for a while.

It serves me right for wasting time replying to irresponsible jerks like "PseudoCyAnts!"

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But still...

Since Obama and his friends usually confine themselves to meaningless blather, it isn't every day that mealy-mouthed Obamabots even make an assertion which is definite enough to be totally discredited, like this ridiculous assertion by PseudoCyAnts!

"Clearly, lawfully enacted treaties possess supremacy within their scope over Constitutional text."

Even though PseudoCyAnts was completely wrong about the relationship between the Constitution and treaties, and got it exactly backwards, he still picked up a lot of beautiful recommends, like this love-letter from TheraP...


Outstanding post, PCA! Simply outstanding!

Highly, highly recommended!

So, in effect, any treaty is like an amendment to the Constitution, with only the assent of the President and the Senators elected at the time. Wow!

Thus, clearly, via Geneva, War Crimes have occurred and must be prosecuted. This is the strongest case I've seen!

And that, to me, precedes any consideration of what to do about those against whom war crimes have occurred, the very persons whom Obama has thought to detain for a lengthy time.

I am completely in agreement with your sentiments. I too, as you know, am troubled by the thought of prolonged detentions. But rather than detentions, this blog convinces me of the mandate for indictments and convictions. To me, that has got to be the first priority.

That's where I stand. I hope you won't class me among the ones you revile.

I look forward to the further information you will be posting on this. Which I will surely be recommending. All your efforts are paid off - in spades!

You've present a very convincing argument. I now need to write a third update to that one post!

My recommendation of the importance of this blog is in the stratosphere!

Harharharhar!!!

Encourage that sucker, TheraP!

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Exactly who is trying to justify infinite detention citing the Geneva Conventions? I would really like to see if someone is stupid enough to do that or if this is just another one of your imaginary foes.

By the by, not that you actually offered any kind of proof for your silly assertion about the constitution "superseding" treaties (which is an incorrect way to think about the situation), the general idea with treaties -- dealing with rights in particular -- is that they define some minimum level which participating nations are free to improve on.

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Exactly who is trying to justify infinite detention citing the Geneva Conventions?

Harharharhar!!!

These Bots just can't read!

It is proper to consider, as a part of the ongoing discussion regarding indefinite detentions without first securing a conviction at a trial that adhered to due process of law, and its constitutionality; The Geneva Conventions' allowance for detaining POWs for the indeterminate period of a conflict's duration.

I grant you that PseudoCyAnts is an (almost) incomprehensibly inept writer, but since his absurd diary is mentioned again and again in the comments above your own, it seems to me that you might have checked it out before claiming that you would "really like to see if someone is stupid enough to do that."

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And just to make the meaning of "supersede" a little clearer for "readers" who can't quite read...

Supersede: To cause to be set aside, especially to displace as inferior.

And what exactly happens to a clause in a treaty that conflicts with the Constitution?

It is "set aside."

It is "displaced as inferior."

It is superseded.

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And now...

Since I've already answered and refuted a sufficient number of stupid and nasty comments for one diary, I'm shutting this down!

Harharharhar!!!

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Rutabaga Ridgepole

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