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Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Decision Points


I have added an addendum at end of this post in response to questions and comments

Obama is meeting with various advisers at length to determine a strategy for Afghanistan. However, this is truly a complex question with far reaching effects. The realities are grim, and seem counter-intuitive to any strategy whatsoever. Unfortunately Obama committed early on to Afghanistan as "the good war." A bad choice in my opinion, but that campaign rhetoric commitment is part of the anchor which now is likely to hold him to certain constraints.

Snapshot History
George Bush invaded Afghanistan to engage in regime change. The justification for the massive assault on Afghanistan was that the Taliban held government would not turn over Osama bin Laden. After running the Taliban out of Kabul, ultimately the oil industry's choice Karzai (former UNOCAL adviser) was installed as the President of Afghanistan. It did not take long for him to be labeled "The Mayor of Kabul."

The Present
After a contested election, Karzai still holds onto power (complete with charges of the corruptness of his government), and he is still the Mayor of Kabul. And despite eight years of U.S. military assault in Afghanistan, the Taliban still control at least 70% of the country. Yes, seventy percent. Further, it is believed that most of al Qaida are now in Pakistan - not Afghanistan, AND the Taliban influence is spreading in Pakistan as well as Afghanistan.

Meanwhile Pakistan, a nuclear armed nation, is facing its own struggles. On one hand there is unrest in the tribal regions, then there is the ongoing undermining of Pakistan's sovereignty via U.S. ground and drone attacks. Pakistan has in many ways shifted from a go-between/ally of the United States to an almost puppet state. However, it is not a happy puppet state. No sovereign nation can allow the continued aggressive military action by a foreign nation within its boundaries without it generating resistance from the populace - be that Pakistan, Afghanistan, or Iraq.

So the negotiations are on to "deal" with the Pakistan "issue," and the attempts to go after al Qaida, bin Laden, insurgents, the Taliban or whatever enemy is on the rotating menu. An added serious imbalance is the relationship between Pakistan and India. Pakistan becomes a multimodal teeter-totter sitting on a crumbling fulcrum.

Pakistan
The U.S. wants to increase its footprint in Pakistan, and neither the Pakistani government, nor the people, are open to that expansion. However, Pakistan needs money in its coffers and the U.S. is waving "aid" (in the amount of $1.5 billion a year) in front of the government's nose; however, it is aid with tight strings attached. The main stipulation being:

The secretary of State must certify to the US Congress annually that Pakistan's security forces are cutting ties to extremist organizations and that a democratically elected government "exercises effective civilian control of the military." Specifically, the State Department must report on civilian oversight of the military budget process, military involvement in civilian affairs, and even the nitty-gritty of how senior military officers are promoted.

This is a significant given the power of the military in Pakistan, and the long term practice of Pakistan's intelligence organization - the ISI - working with militant groups within both Pakistan and Afghanistan, and being the historic go between for the U.S. and the Taliban. The ISI has been a feared power broker in Pakistan, and one that will play a central role in the success of any agreement between the United States, the Pakistani government, and the Pakistani army.

This situation is only exacerbated by the Pashtun push for independence - even if they must seek the aid of the Taliban. If the Pashtun's align with the Taliban, then any effort to track down al Qaida (if that is truly the target) will be devastating for the civilian population and lead to increased militancy against the U.S. - and Pakistan military presence.


Afghanistan
In my opinion, Afghanistan is a lost cause if the Taliban are not intimately involved in stabilization. For all intents and purposes, it is the Taliban who control Afghanistan - not any "elected" government. I am not saying that the people of Afghanistan want the Taliban in power, but thus far eight years of U.S. and international militarism have not made any progress minimizing Taliban power outside of major population centers. Indeed, the current plan seems to pull U.S. forces back into the larger population centers so that they don't slip into Taliban control. At this point, there is a zero sum game in Afghanistan.

As with U.S. intervention using Afghanistan in a proxy war against the Soviet Union, U.S. (and western nations') interest in Afghanistan are not equal to the Afghans determination for their independence. If we had spent the billions we have spent on blowing up Afghanistan on real aid to improve the lives of the people, everyone would be in a much better situation. I strongly suspect, that the power of the Taliban would have eroded, and a much more peaceful region would have been the outcome. No one is hungrier for peace than the people of Afghanistan.

Hidden Casualties
The Afghan refugee situation is largely hidden from the U.S. audience. After the early reporting on refugee camps at the beginning of the invasion, there has been a virtual blackout on refugees in the U.S. media. Refugees International states:

Today more than three million registered refugees remain in exile - 2.1 million in Pakistan and 0.9 million in Iran - and hundreds of thousands more are living abroad to escape economic hardship or targeted violence. Many are now being pressured to return home despite the fact that living conditions are not always secure or humane.

The estimated population of Afghanistan is 28.396 million. An estimated three million are displaced within the region, and certainly a large number are displaced inside Afghanistan, and those who previously fled to Europe are no longer welcome.

Refugees have fled to Italy, France, and the UK. They have survived in places like the Calais "jungle" in France. However, France doesn't want the migrants anymore, and is shutting down Calais. Most of the 1500 people remaining in the crumbling Calais camp are refugees from Afghanistan and Iraq. They have sought asylum, but Europe is getting much stingier in granting it. Despite the economic and personal costs paid by these migrants, Calais will be razed. The asylum seekers will be sent back or sent on.

Other refugees are increasingly seeking haven in Tajikistan, where they struggle to learn Russian and Cyrillic while living in horrible conditions. However, despite the poverty of Tajikistan relative to its neighbors, at least they will accept refugees. So more come hoping to rebuild lives that have been destroyed behind them.

I imagine that should conditions stabilize and improve in Afghanistan, many of the refugees would go home to rebuild their lives. As the displaced within Afghanistan hope for the opportunity to do the same.

Do Afghans Want the Taliban in Power?
From what news reports (largely from the BBC and a few independent journalists) I have seen, people don't relish the idea of the Taliban ruling again. However, the Taliban militias have a great recruiting tool - they can pay. So now the Taliban forces have roughly achieved military strength. One could argue that the Taliban are virtually the only "game" in Afghanistan, which speaks to the woeful failure of the "strategy" of the U.S. (under Bush and Obama) and NATO.

It seems likely that if the Pashtuns in Pakistan are pushing for their own state, that the Pashtuns in Afghanistan will hope for the same. Rather than creating unity, the effects of failed intervention in the interests of Western nations may result in a fracturing of Afghanistan and Pakistan.

Ways Forward
Given the complication and sheer destruction which has left competing powers as virtually independent operators, and people's lives in devastation, it is hard to see what will help - particularly over the short term. It seems that Obama is willing to continue a primarily military (or militaristic) path in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Obama has expanded the Bush administration's practices of covert troop increases in the region using "rotations" and outsourcing to corporate mercenaries to expand military presence. We seem to be in the same situation in Afghanistan as we were in Iraq: "As Afghan military and police stand up, we will stand down." However, our presence in Iraq is not substantively decreasing (especially when one counts "contractors"), and both formal troops and "contractors" are increasing in Afghanistan. Obama has also expanded the use of drones. One could even argue that the $1.5 billion in aid to Pakistan is in effect hiring the Pakistani army as contract forces for U.S. interests. What does "aid" mean in this context?

But the people want peace, to be able to support their families, to have hope for their futures. A "grassroots" experienced U.S. President might apply some of that insight to the turbulence in the region. Assistance in developing internal and external markets in Afghanistan and Pakistan would go a long way towards giving the people options they currently do not have. Assisting community and tribal leaders in building infrastructure and security would go towards balancing the power of the Taliban and whatever al Qaida organization exists in the region.

The poppies of Afghanistan seem to be an endless source of fund raising and international heroin markets. It would seem to be a no-brainer to use those poppies in legitimate ways - namely for the medical market. Why does Tasmania Australia have 40% of the medical opium market? India allows production of medical opium poppies, and they might resist legalization in Afghanistan. Regardless, why can't Afghanistan be a legal supplier of opium for medical uses?

Afghanistan does have natural resources - particularly oil, natural gas and coal - which is part of the reason for ongoing U.S. "interest" in the area. (See also Assessment of Undiscovered Petroleum Resources of Northern Afghanistan, 2006) However, the real energy interests in Afghanistan have been the pipeline to ensure the West's oil supply. It seems that "safeguard" should be profitable for the people of Afghanistan.

Realistically, many of the people of Afghanistan may not want to join the "modern world" on the "modern world's" terms. They have local economies and ways of life that have sustained and enriched them for thousands of years. Stability would go a long way towards allowing local economies to function effectively once again.

What seems very clear is that there is not a military solution to the instability of the region. However, a military presence in that region serves a variety o0f purposes for the United States and the "West." Whose interest will prevail? Those of the people, or those of the the competing powers?

Addendum
Link to a Google map of the Afghanistan region

World Press Review Pipeline Politics: Oil, the Taliban, and the Political Balance of Central Asia

Pipeline map from the article:

CentralAsiaPipelines.gif


51 Comments

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Thanks for the recap here, RW.

In terms of solutions, the one aspect of importance that doesn't seem to get much coverage lies in Afghanistan's placement on the map. Russia and China have a more vested interest in a stable Afghanistan than do any of the other powers in the world. The drug trafficking occurs across their borders. The Taliban exist as a threat to Chinese dominance of the ethnic groups within their country, and the Russians are wary of any growth of Taliban on their frontier. And most certainly, these countries have interest in protecting Pakistan's nuclear armaments.

It would seem there is opportunity here to gain a heretofore elusive working relationship with these two "superpowers" predicated upon our mutual interest to stabilize Afghanistan/Pakistan. It would mean, perhaps, less realpolitick in the preserving of our "national interests" (i.e. Controlling resources for US corporations; establishing Afghanistan as a US military outpost; etc.). But the stakes are too high here, and the task too extreme, to approach this with any objective beyond stabilizing the region and bringing peace to its people inasmuch as that is possible.

I guess what I'm saying is that one way to proceed would be to firmly establish what it is that the region and its peoples need to gain stability - independent of our wants and desires in terms of colonial pay-offs for our assistance - and then encourage ALL outside interests in working together to heal this gaping wound that is now bleeding all over south central Asia.

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I guess what I'm saying is that one way to proceed would be to firmly establish what it is that the region and its peoples need to gain stability - independent of our wants and desires in terms of colonial pay-offs for our assistance - and then encourage ALL outside interests in working together to heal this gaping wound that is now bleeding all over south central Asia.

Sleepin you hit it on the head! I wish there were a bit of altruism in foreign policy.

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Thanks for the excellent analysis, Rowan. One small point - you characterize the Obama approach as primarily militaristic, but he has emphasized the need for rebuilding the Afghan infrastructure and economy. The problem is that people going out into the countryside to do this are killed by the Taliban, and so the need for security is part of the need for rebuilding. In that sense, the Bush and Obama policies differ, and the failures of 8 years of Bush policy shouldn't be conflated with the prospects, as yet uncertain, for Obama's. The newer strategy involves abandoning the notion of going after the Taliban, but rather providing security to the civilian population in areas where we hope to facilitate rebuilding. The Taliban are doing all they can to prevent this, and it's too early to say what the outcome will be, but also too early to decide we should stop trying.

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The problem is foreigners 'going out into the countryside to do this' being 'killed by the Taliban."

We need Afghan advocates, not to be traipsing around trying to "help" people. Heck, even Greg Mortenson's Central Asian Institute employs locals when deciding where to build a school or medical center in Afghanistan or Pakistan. There must be more efforts to empower Afghans to help their country instead of Americans just saying "Do this." and "Do that."

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Another advantage of working through the local people and structures is that more money goes into those locale economies.

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I didn't say "foreigners". The Taliban are killing Afghans who try to help in the reconstruction.

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Indeed they are, though I did misunderstand who you were referring to.

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Good point Fred. I agree on security, but something other than US military need to create that "secure" environment. We (and NATO and the UN) need to create ways of improving security to not occur at the end of a gun (or missiles shot from drones). These seem to be exacerbating the problems rather than moving towards a safer environment. That is my opinion, but doesn't make it right. It just seems that what we are doing is not making things "better." Therefore, more of the same would not seem to be my first choice.

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Thanks so much, Rowan, for writing such a coherent narrative. I am thrilled that you addressed the oil/gas pipelines. I had felt latelyu that whenever I brought up that subject here at the Cafe, it was ignored, and I can't think why. I started doing a bit of looking into it, but I didn't find any current info. It sounds like UNOCAL was bought out sometime in the past few years, so I lost the trail. Iwas ready to email Antonia Juhasz, who was the go-to journalist on the oil deals in Iraq for so long.
I also found reference to a bit in Zbigeniew Brezinski's book about paying the Taliban...Most of it was looking at hits; some of the sites look like conspiracy sites; it's sad that we can almost not be too suspicious about what occurs in US foreign finagling.
I will try to read some of your llinks later.
Question for you: to what degree do you imagine the Obama White House is held hostage by oil interests in the region? Obama's hair turned grey very quickly after his inauguration. I'd imagine he was told some pretty hard truths by the CIA/energy consortium, et.al.

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I'll look at as well. There is more current information and I'll put together some links to that.

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Just focusing on pipelines may be a bit too narrow for the region. The wider version is the "New Silk Road" corridor, which makes Iran a top player that cannot be ignored in the region's politics and economics.

The New Silk Road translates into an energy corridor - the Asian Energy Security Grid - in which the Caspian Sea is an essential node, linked to the Persian Gulf, from where oil is to be transported to Asia. And as far as gas is concerned, the name of the game is Pipelineistan - as in the recently agreed Iran-Pakistan (IP) pipeline and the interconnection between Iran and Turkmenistan, whose end result is a direct link between Iran and China.

For some of the background and how the US is involved (or not) see Eurasian bloc seeks world without West.

I think it's a huge mistake to leave China, Russia and Iran out of our decisions in Afghanistan. These countries not only experience the downsides of a failed Afghanistan state, but are determined to include Afghanistan in their regional economic plans. China has already invested $3 billion in the last of the copper mines there, but is relying on the US to provide the security needed in order to develop the resource.

This is one of the best posts on Afghanistan we have had lately. Thanks, Rowan.

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Thanks Shell. You get double cheezeburgers for this one. Nice addition to the information base.

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It seems that NATO, or at least commanders from NATO states, are just not convinced that there is a way forward in Afghanistan:

http://blogs.mcclatchydc.com/nationalsecurity/2009/10/british-afghanistan-commander-resigns-over-lack-of-clear-policy.html

Part of the strategic incoherence that so many British commanders have resigned over is probably the ridiculous strategy of trying to get Russia to punish Iran while trying to prosecute a war in which Iran would be a far more useful, and natural, ally than Pakistan.

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... the ridiculous strategy of trying to get Russia to punish Iran while trying to prosecute a war in which Iran would be a far more useful, and natural, ally than Pakistan.

Exactly, diachronic! Earlier this year, the NATO chief called for an Iranian role in Afghanistan, as well as India, China and Russia.

As the latest British resignation for "lack of a clear policy" shows, the goals and objectives between NATO and the US are not in alignment, which is another factor in the Afghanistan quagmire. But then again, there is an endless list of factors on why this war should end soon (now).

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Oh, and here is a link to Fareed Zakaria's recent panel discussion on Afghanistan.

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/podcasts/fareedzakaria/site/2009/10/11/gps.podcast.10.11.cnn

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Don't kid yourself. We're in Afghanistan for the heroine. The shit coming in from Mexico and points south has too much blood on it. The CIA is hoping to inject some competition into the marketplace to straighten up the mess. This is the only way they could figure out how to clean up our southern border without blocking all the illegals who trim the hedges at the homes of rich Amercians. Who BTW go through a lot of blow in a years time. Everybody wins.

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Uh, oh; I thought blow was made from coca, from South America.

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Is it a coincidence that Pakistan is finally taking action against the Taliban (and vice versa), or is it due to a more reality oriented kick in the rear from HC earlier this year, and the recent aid legislation requirements?

The fact is the weakness and complacency of the Pakistani 'defense establishment' is becoming all too clear to them, their citizens and the world with the recent attacks on their military headquarters and training facilities. Given more time and resources and without the apparent building efforts to push back these groups might hijack a nuke and hold a Pakistan city hostage.

Bush/McCain seemed too willing to overlook this elephant in the nuclear armed 'china shop' called Pakistan. That is a policy change with Obama/Clinton.

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I don't know that I would characterize the Pakistani defense establishment as "complacent." They have been focused for a very long time on India, and seem to have had a working relationship with various forces inside Pakistan and Afghanistan. Indeed, via the ISI, that has been a highly coordinated working relationship.

What has stimulated the internal military activity in Pakistan seems to have been the United States - between cross border U.S. activities, and the Pakistani government's seemimgly close relationship (under Bush and now apparently Obama) which has generated a reaction against Pakistani official orders. At least that is how it seems to me.

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Good roundup.

You wrote:

"What seems very clear is that there is not a military solution to the instability of the region. However, a military presence in that region serves a variety 0f purposes for the United States and the "West." "

You are absolutely correct that there is no military solution to the instability of the region. In fact, the foreign military intervention has been the cause of most of the destabilization and continues to keep the region unstable. You say that a military present serves a variety of purposes, yet I cannot identify a single one that is positive for any of the parties involved including and perhaps especially the US. Even those who demand our continued futile military presence have no good reason other than a vague warning that if we don't stay those bogey men might harm us. Hooey! All the money we are throwing away on pointless military intervention would better be spent doing almost anything else! The President is not only making a moral and ethical and political error for our nation by escalating the war with more troops and more mercenaries, but he is making an extreme strategci blunder as well. It is a blunder the nation will pay dearly for in blood and treasure and for which we will receive nothing in return but death and national bankruptcy.

Since Korea, the US has not fought any major imperial action of any length that did not end up, at best, in stalemate. Yet the warmongers remain powerful and the politicians obey their foolish commands. The money, the lives, and the property destroyed as a result of our apparent inability to learn from our mistakes is unacceptable.

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While the argument is that the Cold Wart is over, do not be deceived. Russia and the United States (and now China) are constantly jockeying for advantage - just in case things fall apart. With peak oil (and gas) this leans more towards "when" than "if." Here is a link to an interesting article and map - I will also include in the post as an addendum.

Pipeline Politics.

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Okay, and the point is..?

I have no quarrel with the idea that it's just imperial politics as usual but I got news for ya. Our empire is out of money. Not only is it completely futile to keep up the military bullshit in that region, but we cannot afford it. If we do not quickly pull back from the extreme reaches of empire we are sunk. The sooner our imperial rulers get that through their heads the better. We are broke! We are already beholden to the Chinese. They and the Russians, no doubt, will combine to make sure we are forever on the sidelines if at all possible. And there's not a damn thing we can do about it if we bankrupt ourselves now over Afghanistan. It's idiotic on top of being immoral and a huge strategic blunder.

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oleeb, not trying to argue here. You are 100% correct that the U.S. empire is as broke as you can get and hangs on the edge of a frightening cliff. However, we have more "weapons of mass destruction" than the rest of the world combined, and the world knows it. The threat under Bush was that, that arsenal would be released. Under Obama? I hope not, but he has done nothing thus far to reduce that arsenal, and it is in fact increasing in some development areas.

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Understood and I certainly agree. It would be nice to see some of those weapons dismantled but I ain't holding my breath. I am particularly worried about what all this insanity today means for my children 30 years from now.

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Thanks for a good summation of the situation Rowan. I agree with most of your analysis. I would argue that your solution of converting the illegal opium business to a legal pharmaceutical business is a bit simplistic, as the pharmaceutical industry has all the opium resources it currently needs. Add to that that the reality that the market for the more profitable illegal poppy trade will not disappear by converting the end users, and will just reappear as an adjunct to any legal poppy farming. The solution to the opium trade in Afghanistan is not an easy one.

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I agree that the suggestion is simplistic, but why not have a U.S. - Australia agreement to reduce their 40% share of the market to Afghanistan?

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Nothing wrong with such a move, although it would impact the industry's all ready established suppliers and I think not change anything vis a vis the funding of terrorism through illegal poppy farming.

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To give some credence to tpc above, opium (and the illicit drug market)funds (or has funded) not only "terrorism," but US covert operations. Not to mention the hundreds of millions of dollars a year laundered through Wall Street and providing a substantial economic boost to a variety of nations and states.

If not poppy, then replacing with agricultural crops that allow farmers to survive in Afghanistan.

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Well tpc is definitely onto a big part of the equation imo Rowan. It's not just the opium growers/heroin refiners/distributors. It's also the infrastructure we've created to 'fight' the trade. Both sides have a lot invested in preserving some version of the status quo. Both sides benefit from the global charade of cops and robbers we call the 'war on drugs'. If you want my real thoughts on this subject, the only way we will eliminate the opium trade is by overtly becoming the drug lords/distributors. We take over production and offer it to proven addicts at low or no cost. We control production and access, and eventually reduce the end users through treatment or attrition. Then we have to ensure the growers and those in the distribution pipeline have other crops to grow, work to do once the market is diminished or actually functionally eliminated. It's the only way I see us ever eliminating the demand for heroin in the illegal drug market and hence the market itself. In the end it would be much cheaper than maintaining the farce of the war on drugs, and significantly limit addiction.

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Pomegrante production is one of the crops people are growing instead of poppies. There has been a massive campaign to sell the juice as an anti-oxidant elixir, with many claims of health bonuses. Who knows the truth? And how is it working, and how many want it to work? Here is a pomegranate link:

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/latestnews/Afghanistan-finds-a-fruitful-way.4721184.jp

I think the other major key would be legalization/education/treatment for poppy products in the US; perhaps other nations would follow suit (dream on, okay). Extreme crises call for extreme measures; one day...? Taking the profit motive out of the drug trade is the only answer I can see to the drug problem. The war on drugs is costing billions; if you factor in the wars abroad, that number increases by a lot.

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Only if we make pomegranite juice illegal will its price rise sufficient to compete with poppies as a cash crop. Our "Drug Wars" make for some damned interesting economic realities that distort common sense itself.

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You said that right, jeezus. It is an Artful Dodger Game, ain't it?
BTW: is that Studs Terkel that is you?

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That is indeed Studs Terkel that is me that is just about evreything I could hope to be in gaining a proper perspective on peace and justice issues. Whew! ;O)

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That sentence oughta get some award, dear!
Studs=awesome, and I don't use the term lightly.

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you know Rowan, if the proposed 140 billion dollars in bonuses (thats bonuses over and above salary) that the bankers are going to reap this year were simply confiscated--since its our money anyway--and given to the Afghans and the Pakistani's and the Iraqi's

ALL THESE WARS WOULD END TOMORROW.

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You are such a dreamer friend DD. Confiscate their bonuses? Why that is a criminal attack on capitalism. That borders on treason. ... you know the rhetoric.

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As to the US mission in Afghanistan, I'm going to go with Steven Metz, an expert in the Army War College's Strategic Studies Institute.

In a debate with Nathan Freier on the Army's strategic role, Metz believes we have over-hyped the threats from failed states and hostile dictators, which has resulted in our Afghanistan quagmire. Instead, he suggests there are better ways to deal with the threats:

If there are terrorist sanctuaries in a foreign state, we could undertake spoiling raids and containment. If there is a humanitarian disaster, we could participate in a short term multinational coalition effort to address it. If a nuclear state fails, we could undertake limited military operations to gain control of existing nuclear weapons and destroy the capability to produce more. If a friendly state faces insurgency, we could provide limited advice and assistance.

So much of the worry about Afghanistan is centered on Pakistan and the possibilities that its nukes will end up in the wrong hands. It was interesting that Clinton recently stressed that there is no chance of that happening. Without being able to provide a link right now, I know I have heard that the nukes in question have been secured against that chance. And as Metz says, even if the nukes are threatened, we can undertake the actions necessary at the time to gain control if we need to. Occupying Afghanistan in the face of hostile resistance from the militant forces there and against the wishes of the population can't be justified on the grounds of possible trouble with Pakistan's nukes.

Just MHO.

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I agree with Metz's approach.

Developing the potential to do specific things very well is better than trying to shape the "future" of the region like some sort of wizard.

The neocons always say the choice is between the complete abandonment of attempts to use U.S. power to protect our interests or a compliance with their militarist agenda. The rhetoric only works in a policy void.

We need more policies.

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While I generally agree with Metz' suggestions, it is a bit disingenuous since the U.S. has been willing over the decades to create failed states, bring brutal dictators to power, and support them in keeping that power - in our "national interests." United Fruit Company, The Shah, Hussein to name a few.

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I won't argue with you, Rowan. You are right!

But I'll take my double round of cheezeburgers please!

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Seashell - Clinton stated that Pakistan's nuclear weapons are not currently in danger. She did not claim that they would remain safe in a destabilized Pakistan. I believe she, as well as others engaged in the analysis, see Afghanistan and Pakistan as one package in some respects, particularly in the sense that neither would be secure if the other were under the complete domination of insurgents. Much of the Afghanistan debate revolves around the best means of avoiding that scenario. The goal of completely eliminating insurgencies in either region is known to be unrealistic.

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Fred - call me hard-headed, but it boggles the mind to believe that the best way to secure Pakistan's nukes against non-state terrorists through US occupation of Afghanistan.

Nor can the US do much more in helping Pakistan secure it's nukes. By many accounts, the US is already involved in discreet Cooperative Threat Reduction (CTR) under the limits of US law. But the same problem arises with Pakistan that rears its head in much of the MidEast and Asia - distrust of the US in general and in particular when it involves a country's nukes. Under these circumstances, Congressional testimony advised that consultation with other countries (China, Saudi Arabia, the EU and Japan) that share an interest in a stable Pakistan could help stabilize Pakistan and its neighbors.

Also in testimony to Congress, one expert noted that the nukes are Pakistan's crown jewels and as such are heavily guarded. Last spring Pakistan undertook the mission of reassuring the international community that its weapons are safe, which included a description of the part of the military that is "ring fenced" from any rogue elements that may be in the general Army.

My main argument revolves around any US ability to obtain even the limited goals of a stable Afghanistan and Pakistan and to secure Pakistan's nukes against take-over by rogue Pakistani elements and militant forces in Afghanistan. Our presence is not only viewed with great suspicion, but also tends to lead to more violence and less stability. Since the US is not the only country with a stake in these goals (and it can be argued that our actual stake is very little), it makes sense to involve the regional interests at the least, and hand it over to them as the best options for everyone involved.

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Clinton may see Pakistan and Afghanistan as "one package in some respects," but that is not how Pakistanis themselves see it!
I urge you to seek out authentic sources of information on actual public sentiment in Pakistan.

Here is a start:

http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/pakistan/03-The-great-denial-ss-01

As for the inner dynamic driving Pakistan into chaos, remember, Fred, that two pairs of states were created by the UN in 1947-48: Israel and Jordan (which contained "Palestine") and Pakistan and India. Western attention has been fixated on the Israel/Palestine dynamic driving antagonism towards the US. However, Pakistan and India are two of the most populous nations in the world, and constitute a far greater fault line in terms of ethnic/religious conflict that could escalate to nuclear war. For this reason, any strategy that uses "AfPak" to describe US strategy is worse than useless. India must be included in any discussion of the strategy. This includes a resolution of the situation in Kashmir.

But in reality, it is just as unrealistic to expect peace in Israel/Palestine as it is between Pakistan and India. Using Pakistan as a reluctant "ally" against terrorists Pakistan would prefer to use against India is extremely counterproductive, because these terrorists are viewed as a great strategic asset when used properly (ie, in Kashmir).

The government of Pakistan claims to be resolute against the Taliban. Hillary Clinton expresses confidence in the security of Pakistan's nukes. I think the Pakistanis at least know they are lying.

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Here's a link to a story on MSNBC concerning Pakistan's nukes:

Pakistan nuclear weapons vulnerable to attack?
Militant assault on army headquarters raises anew security concerns
AP updated 6:01 p.m. ET Oct. 12, 2009
url: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33283167/ns/world_news-south_and_central_asia/

There's quite a bit of heavy security surrounding their nukes. At least the effort is draconian enough to make someone think twice before they launch an attack and the coordination would have to be awesome enough to hit multiple places at the same time and knowing what to look for and where and to pack enough heat to get in and out with the booty.

Here's a quick brief:

Nuke Arsenal
Pakistan uses armed forces personnel to guard nuclear weapons facilities, and it physically separates warhead cores from their detonation components
**estimated to have between 70 and 90 warheads,
**warheads, detonators and missiles are stored separately in protected underground sites,
**warheads are electronically locked to ensure that they cannot be detonated even if they fall in terrorists' hands,
**facilities patrolled by elite troops,

Fear of infiltration
While complex security is in place, much depends on the Pakistani army and how vulnerable it is to infiltration by extremists;
**Security at Pakistan's isolated nuclear installations is believed to be significantly higher than at the army headquarters, which was relatively relaxed by the standards of other nations;
**A realistic scenario they have addressed would involve militant sympathizers getting work as scientists at the facilities and passing information to extremists,

The Pakistan military carefully screens and monitors the officers vested with protecting the warheads
**Punjabi officers are almost exclusively drawn because they are considered to have fewer links to religious extremists;
**Pashtun officers would not considered because the Taliban garners much of its support from the region'
**No action or decision involving a nuclear weapon can be undertaken by fewer than two persons,
**the possibility always exists of a collusion between cleared officers and extremists.

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Thanks for this Beetle. Especially noted is the nature of the threat to Pakistan's nukes. It's not from militants seizing control of the nukes through force, but from sympathetic scientists passing along information to the extremists.

Once the security of Pakistan's nukes are taken out of the picture, there is no reason for the US to stay in Afghanistan. This is true from a humanitarian viewpoint as well as from a cost-benefit perspective.

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Ditto on this Beetle! Thanks for the added information.

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I know this post is off the boards and that no one may see this.

I apologize for not responding yesterday afternoon and evening, but I was curled up in "struck down" medically and couldn't even sit at the computer.

Thanks to everyone for your excellent comments and additions.

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Well, I'm seeing it and am sending feel better wishes wrapped in puppy love. See, you feel better already!

But I'm also waiting on my cheezeburgers. Puppies don't forget these things.

:-)

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Thank you seashell and .........

Here it is cheeseburger

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The puppy will NOT forget the heresy that has been committed, nor the one that has been omitted, even though it was fairly earned.

However, the puppy is pleased to say that at least a puppy can EAT a cheezeburger, unlike those types of fish that don't have teeth!

HA!

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No offense meant honorable seashell by any stretch of the imagination. I thought the puppy would get the stockpile of never-go-stale cheezeburgers and smiel that puppy is set for the lean times. My deepest apologies if I dissed you dear.

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Rowan Wolf

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Sociologist, teacher, activist and writer. I know that my name sometimes fools people into thinking I am male, but am a woman.

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