« We Need More Stimulus, Not More Bailout | Robert Reich's Blog | Where Government Spending Should be Trimmed -- And Why It's Necessary to Fast-Track Universal Health Care »
A Short Citizen's Guide to Kooks, Demagogues, and Right-Wingers On Tax Day
1. "Americans pay too much in taxes." Wrong: The United States has the lowest taxes of all developed nations.
2. "The rich pay too much! The top ten percent of income earners pay over 72 percent of all income taxes!" Misleading: The main reason the rich pay such a large percent is they've become so much richer than the bottom 90 percent in recent years. If you look at what they pay as individuals -- the percent of their incomes over and above the highest rate below them -- you'll see a steady decline over the years. When Republican Dwight Eisenhower was president, the marginal rate on the highest earners was 91 percent (after deductions and tax credits, closer to 50 percent); by 1980 it was still up there, at 70 percent (an effective rate of closer to 45 percent); under Bill Clinton, it was 38 percent (an effective rate closer to 28 percent).
Look at the after-tax earnings of families and you'll see what's really going on. Between 1980 and 2000, the after-tax earnings of famlies at the top rose more than 150 percent, while the after-tax earnings of families in the middle rose about 10 percent. The Bush tax cuts of 2001 and 2003 raised the after-tax incomes of most Americans by a bit over 1 percent -- but raised the after-tax incomes of millionaires by 4.4 percent.
3. "The bottom 60 percent pay only 3.3 percent of the taxes!" Misleading again. Most Americans are paying more in sales taxes than they ever have. Property taxes have also been rising at a steady clip. And Social Security taxes have also risen (thanks to the Greenspan Commission), while earnings over about $100,000 aren't subject to Social Security taxes. So-called "sin" taxes (mostly beer and cigarettes) have also skyrocketed. All of these taxes take a bigger bite out of the paychecks of people with lower incomes than they do people with higher incomes.
4. "Obama is raising your taxes!" Wrong. Obama is cutting taxes for 95 percent of Americans, by about $400 per person a year -- not a whopping tax cut, to be sure, but not a tax increase by any stretch. Only the top 2 percent will have a tax increase, but even this tax increase is modest. Basically, they go back to the rates they were paying under Bill Clinton (their deductions will be limited to 28 percent, which is only fair). And they won't start paying this until 2011 anyway.
5. "The huge debts we're wracking up will cause your taxes to rise!" Wrong again. When it comes to the national debt, as I've said before, the relevant statistic is the ratio of debt to the gross domestic product. The only sure way to bring that debt down and make it manageable in future years is to get the economy growing again -- which requires that, in the short term, the government spend a lot of money (because consumers and businesses won't). In the long term, the biggest source of concern is rising health-care costs. And that's something Obama and Congress are aiming to tackle.
6. "We have a patriotic duty to stand up against Washington taxes!" Just the opposite. We have a patriotic duty to pay taxes. As multi-billionaire Warrent Buffett put it, "If you stick me down in the middle of Bangladesh or Peru or someplace, you'll find out how much this talent is going to product in the wrong kind of soil. I will be struggling thirty years later." President Teddy Roosevelt made the case in 1906 when he argued in favor of continuing the inheritance tax. "The man of great wealth owes a particular obligation to the state because he derives special advantages from the mere existence of government."
An acquaintance from law school, now a partner in one of Washington's biggest and wealthiest law firms, explained to me one day over lunch how he and his partners use tax rules to create offsetting taxable gains and losses, and then allocate the gains to the firm's foreign partners who don't pay taxes in the United States. That way, they keep the losses here and shelter their income abroad. I noticed he had an American flag lapel pin. "You're supporting our troops," I said, referring to his pin. "Yup," he replied, entirely missing my point.
True patriotism isn't cheap. It's about taking on a fair share of the burden of keeping America going.
Advertisement
















taking on a fair share of the burden
Particularly, one may hope, the burden being presently generated by the necessary restorative cash infusions directed by Treasury and the Fed.
Having had their incompetent, greedy asses bailed out, may we please be spared the bleating when the rentiers are asked to help retire the resulting debt.
April 15, 2009 4:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Don't forget that the "greed" was created by incentives put in place by our government. The Community Reinvestment Act dictated that banks lend to certain percentages of minorities, inner-city residents etc. Banks could not expand unless they responded to the directives. Our government, particularly the Democrates who prevented oversight of Fannie Mae, bears a great deal of responsibility. Talk about incompetence! Good God! Just look at our present administration.
April 16, 2009 11:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
"he and his partners use tax rules to create offsetting taxable gains and losses"
They are criminals.
April 15, 2009 5:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
They are criminals
As they say, "The real crime is that this stuff is legal"...
April 15, 2009 5:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Some loopholes are legit, others aren't, or to fair to the loopholes, the use of the loophole may be moral or immoral.
There's a difference between keeping your tax bill down and tax evasion. A recent study showed something like 85% of people say it's not okay to cheat on taxes, about 10 think it's okay to cheat a little, and the rest said it's okay.
Of course poll answers are sometimes strongly influenced by the phrasing and context of the question asked.
April 15, 2009 8:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
difference between keeping your tax bill down and tax evasion
Absolutely. One should tune the aggressiveness of one's tax strategy so that, in the event of an audit, an additional tax is found to be due, and that amount should be over five percent but under ten percent of the total tax previously declared by the individual.
If an audit results in no bill for additional tax, it means you have been calling the close one's against yourself.
If, (Angels and Ministers of Grace, Forbid it!) an audit concludes with a refund, you need to be put away before you do yourself any further harm.
April 16, 2009 1:51 AM | Reply | Permalink
I can imagine some people thinking that way, they'd be in the 10% of the population.
April 16, 2009 5:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
eds.
Loopholes are what the wealthy buy to avoid paying taxes or to reduce the amount they pay.
Define "loopholes".
Loopholes = those things 90/95% of the public cannot afford to buy.
April 16, 2009 2:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Loopholes are just local differences from the general norm, and favor locals. Sometimes they are inadverdent, sometimes they are put in place sub rosa by special interests, sometimes they are put there for an overty reason.
In all cases they might be used or abused. The dominant mode in language is pejorative, thus "escape compliance" etc., but I use it in as value-neutral a way as possible here.
Some dictionary entries:
–noun
1. a small or narrow opening, as in a wall, for looking through, for admitting light and air, or, particularly in a fortification, for the discharge of missiles against an enemy outside.
2. an opening or aperture.
3. a means of escape or evasion; a means or opportunity of evading a rule, law, etc.: There are a number of loopholes in the tax laws whereby corporations can save money.
n.
1. A way of escaping a difficulty, especially an omission or ambiguity in the wording of a contract or law that provides a means of evading compliance.
April 16, 2009 4:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why aren't they talking to you on NPR today, Professor Reich? "National Pinko Radio" is outdoing Fox News itself in promoting the distortions and silliness of the teabaggers.
April 15, 2009 5:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's odd. I thought it was "Nice Polite Republicans."
April 16, 2009 3:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
i think there is a perception that because the don't know where their tax dollars are going, it must certainly be used for: pork and poor people. i don't think there is a big problem in terms of finding out where our tax dollars go exactly, but if there was a clear illustration to what our tax dollars towards, on a regular basis, then i think people would start to complain about what our tax dollars do rather than complaining about paying them period.
once you get people to realize where their money is going, they transform from railing against "socialism" to advocating for a more progressive tax structure
April 15, 2009 5:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Pork, of course, is any federal money not spent in your district. Poor folk live on the other side of town, even though you can barely make ends meet and your wife just got laid off. Mortgage cramdowns are unfair, unless they can stop foreclosures from torpedoing home values in your neighborhood.
Transparency will help, but progressive policy has to begin with progressive values.
April 15, 2009 10:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's a nice "clear illustration" of the federal discretionary budget*, where most of our federal income tax $ goes: Death and Taxes
Show it to all your friends! As you can see, most of the pie funds our military and the war efforts. Thus I enforcing the point - it really is our patriotic duty to pay up.
My question for the rabid anti-tax folks: Why do you hate our brave American troops?
(* Note entitlement spending is excluded, since it's already baked in the cake so to speak, and an entirely different kind of government outlay.)
April 16, 2009 1:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Of course the comments about Obama and taxes are absurd. The whole "tea party" thing is absurd.
Look, if McCain had won and done exactly the same things that Obama has done, would any of this "tea party" stuff be happening? Of course not. Would Fox be talking about McCain's tax increases? Of course not.
No, this protest is simply about the most basest members of the Republican party expressing their frustration at having been thrown out of power by a sizable majority of the American electorate. And more than a few of them are also upset that the President isn't white. Everything else is just an excuse.
April 15, 2009 5:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
What makes you think that if McCain had won that we wouldn't have Pelosi, Reid, Frank, Rangel, etc screaming about the size of the bailouts? (Not to mention Olbermann).
April 15, 2009 10:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Because they weren't the ones screaming about the bailout when Bush was still President. Duh.
April 15, 2009 10:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
buttsecks
April 15, 2009 11:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Also.
April 16, 2009 12:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
trucknutz
April 16, 2009 6:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
That's quite a generalization to say that people who opposed the bailout now didn't oppose it under Bush.
So as long as someone opposed the bailouts under Bush then it's OK for them to protest today?
April 16, 2009 12:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
Earth to MCB -
You asked: What makes you think that if McCain had won that we wouldn't have Pelosi, Reid, Frank, Rangel, etc screaming about the size of the bailouts? (Not to mention Olbermann).
I answered: Because they weren't the ones screaming about the bailout when Bush was still President. Duh.
All I did was point out that the Democrats you mentioned have supported the bailout under a Republican and a Democratic President.
And then you wandered off the reservation into uncharted territory with this reply. I hope you find your way home.
April 16, 2009 3:01 AM | Reply | Permalink
At this time, I believe MCB is deferring to the crickets for any further response...
April 16, 2009 2:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
hinckley, that would be a step up!
April 16, 2009 3:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
seashell, fined $20.00 for introducing logic to the posts.
April 16, 2009 2:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
I haz logic? :-)
But I don't haz $20.00. I haz to pay for my own gas, u know. :-(
Can I send cheeseburger instead?
April 16, 2009 3:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Except for "most basest" you're exactly right. I'm glad you stuck in the point about about their dissatisfaction with the Presdident's race, incidentally. This is also one of the leading reasons why ASU oafishly is not giving him an honorary degree.
April 16, 2009 12:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
It's hard to deny - for anyone who is even attempting to be honest with himself - that hatred of the white house nigro is sort of the 'the man behind the curtain' that is moving the levers.
In one sense, this was effective in that it has shown how easily the Astroturf groups and FOX can conspire to motivate the dumbassochist haters and weirdos.
That they so willingly display their bizarre psyches for the world to see - that actually is chilling to me. The very irrationality of it all is the most frightening part.
You can't out-think idiots.
April 16, 2009 10:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yessir, well said indeed, and that last line of yours is chilling in its simple, unassailable, accuracy.
April 16, 2009 11:31 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, an idiot will drag you down to his/her level then BEAT you with experience!
April 16, 2009 2:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yup, pretty much.
April 16, 2009 1:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
I too think the rich don't pay enough taxes. Reich is right. It's easy to confirm on the IRS web site which breaks down taxes collected and percentage of AGI. To a great extent it is due to the reduction of max tax rate on dividends and cap gains to 15%. You can actually see the declines in their tables.
April 15, 2009 6:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
I would call it "...Guide to Kookie, Right-wing Demagogues on Tax Day" because the vast majority of these uniquely American nitwits fall into all three categories.
The Bush Base loved the war, they just don't want to pay for it, or its consequences.
April 15, 2009 7:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Proffessor, you once again have the temerity to take a position that traditionally would have been thought of as not only responsible, but ethical and 100% American. How dare you!
April 15, 2009 9:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
According to Gallup poll released yesterday, 48 percent of Americans believe they pay about the right amount of taxes. The only time since 1956 that the number was higher was in 2003, after the second round of Bush tax cuts.
Strip away the gun nuts, Commie haters and Fox News reporters, and I'm not sure how many people actually showed up to protest taxes.
April 15, 2009 10:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
In a hurry, this was the first place to post.
This teabaggersday dump is only some of the slime leeking from the mis-guided tanker filled with sewage everyone wanted to sink! Problem now is the sucker ran up onto land and is leeking everywhere.
You see the addicts running towards the leeking sewage with their tounges hanging led by sewage lovers handjob and newtered.
Media still owned by these guys folks.
Bring on frikin franken.
Let the real show start.
Truth anyone?
April 16, 2009 12:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
Heh, couldn't help but smile when I saw the piece's title, considering who wrote it. And I'd even venture to say its arguments are just as valid for tall citizens...
:)
April 16, 2009 1:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
Glad somebody else noticed that.
April 16, 2009 9:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you, Mr. Reich. This is a fine blog entry that takes each point and holds it up to the light of reality. I really do appreciate seeing a good piece of critical reasoning and hope others will stop and think for a change after reading your piece. The knee-jerk, blah blah rhetoric responses based on lies are really very irritating. Again, a sincere thank you!
April 16, 2009 9:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Mr. Reich fails to acknowledge the rise intaxes other than the income tax. By the time one totals property tax, state income tax, sales tax, business tax, medicare, social security etc, the percentage is rising.
I have a question for Mr. Reich. At what point does my right to keep my own money trump the right of the government to take my money? 60%? 70%? 90%? I think that if he answered honestly, he would say that he is in favor of income caps. Socialism is what he supports.
April 16, 2009 10:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
W. Tanner your right to keep my own money trump the right of the government to take my money? should have no limit for Republican nitwits like you who voted in George W. Bush and his gang of liars, deregulators, incompetents and war profiteers.
April 16, 2009 11:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
It seems those who cannot answer a questin attack the one asking. Thoughful.
April 16, 2009 11:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't know where you live, but my total tax burden is around 20 percent of income.
At 25.5 percent, The United States is third lowest among developed nations in tax receipts as a percentage of GDP.
We've got a long way to go to get to 60 percent. Come to think about it, tripling tax receipts would go a long way toward wiping out that trillion dollar deficit the tea-slingers are whining about. Let's do it!
April 16, 2009 9:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have a question for Mr. Reich. At what point does my right to keep my own money trump the right of the government to take my money? 60%? 70%? 90%?
Can you point me to any of our governing documents that say you have a right to keep your own money?
Because Article I, Section 8, Clause 1 of the Constitution is the the Taxing and Spending Clause that gives the power of taxation to Congress and the States:
It's hard to trump the Constitution. :-)
.
April 16, 2009 1:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Tanner,
what percentage of "your own money" would you feel comfortable paying as taxes?
Break it down in Federal, State, Local.
April 16, 2009 2:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
my all time favorite quote is from the father of Bill Gates:
TAXES ARE THE RENT YOU PAY TO LIVE IN AMERICA!
April 16, 2009 10:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Give me a break. Taxes have become the mechanism by which politicians buy votes.
April 16, 2009 12:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
As usual, it's a tall order for us in the ether to ignore Dr. Reich's obvious pun. (Ahem.)
Professor, you are correct on so many points. May I add to your laundry list the obvious absurdity of the cry against "taxation without representation" and the baseless comparisons of the issues in 1773 vs. today.
My only real criticism of your approach in this case, sir, is the obvious disconnect between your intellectual response to what was in my view a visceral, anti-intellectual expression of political hostility. The intellectual power of the teabaggers was on full display during a CNN reporter's exchange with a placard-holding marcher, who, when pressed on why he was referring to Obama as a fascist and socialist and yet could neither explain why that were so nor provide his definition of fascism, became hostile and threatening to the reporter.
Long live right-wing demagoguery!
April 16, 2009 10:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes. As I responded to overreach THIS, the complete absence of any identifiable legitimate grievance is what scares me to death. These people were 'motivated' to show up through a naked and brazen propoganda campaign whose arguments don't make sense - as for example the guy who says Obama's a fascist AND a socialist. Kind of like the 'argument' that he's a Muslim AND a Black Power Christian.
Just to get straight to the point: how many of the protesters make more than $250K per annum?
The vast majority of Americans, and certainly the vast majority of the teabag troglodytes are getting a small tax CUT.
But the wingers are pissed. There simply is no rational response to something this bizarre and unhinged.
April 16, 2009 2:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
http://togetrichisglorious.blogspot.com/2009/04/responding-to-reich.html
April 16, 2009 10:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
There are moral reasons to oppose paying taxes under our current system of allocating those funds. When someone blithely advises you that a huge percentage of your taxes go to the military, that's a moral reason to protest your taxes right there. The military is a tool for killing people and breaking shit, rarely a moral course of action or an ethical place to spend money largely collected by threat of force in the first place.
Much of our military expenditure over the past six years or so has gone into unnecessary campaigns of terror against, for the most part, darker skinned people outside our tribe who have never done anything to us. We've gone over and killed lots of them, maimed lots more, blown up a great big heaping pile of their stuff, and just for funzies, we've tortured, raped, and humiliated quite a few of them too. Men, women, and children. Your tax dollars at work. Aren't you proud to be an American?
All of this is a legitimate reason to oppose paying taxes, or, at least, to oppose the way your so called elected representatives allocate your taxes. If all across America hundreds of thousands rose up on April 15 to say "DON'T USE MY TAXES TO KILL WOMEN AND KIDS", I'd respect those people... hell, I'd be out there marching with them. And if someone wants to get together a grass roots tax revolt movement to stop paying taxes until we get our asses back out of places we have no moral right to be in, I'll sign up for that, too.
But the people involved in the ongoing tea parties put together by the contemporary conservative movement have no such motivation. They're not even coherent. They can't come up with an actual message, because here's what they're really protesting -- they lost an election. They can't understand it. They lost an election, and now there's a black guy/liberal/socialist/fascist/Not A Republican And Nobody We Want To Drink A Beer With currently in the White House, and they can't stand it, and somebody they're inclined to listen to told them this was what they should do about it.
They're protesting the fact that despite their blatant electoral frauds in 2000 and 2004, their takeover of the DOJ, their stacking the Supreme Court with conservative justices, and their spectacularly successful efforts to get a complete chokehold on most of the wealth and political power in the richest nation on Earth, they still lost the last two elections, and the people who are running the government right now aren't listening to these lunatics any more.
That won't look real good on a protest sign or a t-shirt, though, so they tell themselves this is about taxes.
April 16, 2009 10:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
For Pete's sake, it really is not necessary to misrepresent the protestors' motivations. I didn't go to a tax day tea party yesterday to protest my current tax level; it's the smallest it's been in a decade. We were protesting out-of-control bailouts, deficits and spending. Feel free to tell me why that's a stupid reason to protest, if you like, but it isn't the current tax burden that has most of us up in arms.
April 16, 2009 10:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think it's the masochistic nature of it. Especially all this 'backlash' against the stimulus bill. Why? Is it hurting you in any way? We're in a Depression guys - I don't think this is the time for the govt to be shrinking and shedding jobs.
God think about that. They want auserity... during a Depression.
I can understand anger against super rich bankers, but then the right's answer to that is to lower taxes on the super wealthy? Huh? I personally think the govt should have stepped in and simply set up its own bank and COMPETED with the banks. But when I see the pictures of the protests it was all nigro hatin' and demonstrably false Obama resentment (HE wasn't BORN HERE! - Um okay, so if you give birth to a son while vacationing in Europe, does that mean he's not a US citizen?) and bizarre 'grievances' that really fall into the "black helicopter" range of deluded paranoia.
And people were walking around with signs saying "No taxation without representation" - when the hell did that happen? Did Obama do something with these people's congressmen?
April 17, 2009 6:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
I reject Mr. Reich's basic argument that began this piece, "The United States has the lowest taxes of all developed nations."
I don't live in all developed nations. I live in the United States. When I don't get to take home and spend 50% of my income then my taxes are too high. President Obama is raising my tax rate, I'm in the top bracket. California just raised my sales tax, my license plate tax, and my income tax. I'm seeing my interest deduction disappear. The list is endless.
If I wanted to live in the rest of the developed world I would. I don't. I want to live in the United States where the individual citizens has the right to succeed or FAIL based on their own merits, and the government, Federal-State-Local, had limits put on what they could take with taxes and what they could spend. At this point I would settle for 50% of my paycheck. Sales tax takes 9.75% right of the top. Federal income tax, state income tax, social security, medicare, disability, etc. etc. etc. mean I'm already below my 50% requirement, and Mr. Reich tells me my taxes are low. I'm just livid over such an outlandish claim.
April 16, 2009 11:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
"the government, Federal-State-Local, had limits put on what they could take with taxes and what they could spend"
Uh, no. The decision of how much to tax is a politicial decision, not a constituional one. Unfortunately for you, the no-tax, no-regulation ("where the individual citizens has the right to succeed or FAIL based on their own merits") crowd has been running the show for the last thirty years, and they have ran it right into bankruptcy.
You apparently believe that America is a place where a few greedy individuals have the right to destroy the economy for everyone else. I believe that the people, through their goverment, have the right, even the responsibility, to vote for policies that promote the general welfare.
You had your way, and you failed. Miserably. Maybe, once we've fixed this mess, eonough people will get complacent enough to vote your policies (or lack thereof) back in. But for now, if you had a shred of concern for anyone other than yourself, you would sit down and shut up.
April 16, 2009 12:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Most would agree that if the government were to take 100% we would be slaves. What does that make us when they take 50%? Half-slave?
April 16, 2009 12:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dare I say it?
America, Love It or Leave It.
April 16, 2009 1:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Love It or Leave It."
50-50?
April 16, 2009 10:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's a joke.
April 17, 2009 12:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
check out this youtube -- "tea partay"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTU2He2BIc0
April 16, 2009 12:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Jeez. . . leave it to Reich to open with a "short" joke.
That said, this a very reasoned argument, and will fall on deaf ears in the teabagger* ommunity. They insist they already know what the truth is, so if you point out they are wrong you are an unpatriotic commie trying to destroy America, and it's a danger for them to listen to you.
*We have to keep using the term "teabagger", they started it, let's use it to their chagrin.
April 16, 2009 12:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, no. For what the average citizen gets out of it-- their taxes should be lower.
Really, there's only one interesting thing about the tea party uproar--and that's the way it fixates on everything but what most of the public is mad about: having to bail out the criminal class that's been busy systematically screwing them over financially in every other sense too.
That doesn't mean it won't work for our little right wing populists. (It always has before).
April 16, 2009 1:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've mostly heard the teabaggers decrying Obama's socialist/porkfest (can it be both?) stimulus package and taxes in general. I've not heard too many (outside of congressional poseurs) actually naming and defaming the Goldman-Sachs type bloodsuckers, where the real money is going.
April 16, 2009 1:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wingnut lament: "Woe is us, we're being relegated to the dustbin of History, whatever can we do?"
Gingrich: "Eureka, lets have a tea bag revolution!"
Wingnuts: "Yeah, that'll do it, it will get us right back on top!"
April 16, 2009 2:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
HERE'S an idea: Why don't the Wingnuts, Gingrich and the rest of these Huckleberrys ALL move to Texas then, secede from the USA??
THAT way, EVERYBODY'S happy!!!
April 16, 2009 3:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bobby Reich: Kook and Demagogue EVERY day
April 16, 2009 4:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Robert Third Reich is the designated Liberal Nazi for smearing and marginalizing resistance to Obama's communist fringe movement. History records that a previous Nazi, Hitler, used Reich's tactics to marginalize and brutalize any resistance to his reign of terror. What we have here is another pathetic series of lies, half-truths, and more lies designed to convince sub-moronic stooge Demo-commie-crats that they are on the right track (to oblivion).
The commies on the coast are gonna be toast.
Make America a better place - stop paying taxes!
April 16, 2009 4:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
It would be great if you could articulate a single example of Reich's "smearing", "marginalizing", "lies" or "half-truths". Instead of your Nazi rant!
Ironically, you called the professor "Liberal Nazi" THEN claimed the same name as your own username. Pheeew! You of all people ought to support Obama's platform for better education....if not for yourself, at least for the kids raised anywhere NEAR (God forbid BY) you!!
April 16, 2009 4:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
for Robert Reich to label everyone in America who opposes high taxes and wasteful government spending as Kooks and Demagogues simply shows he is completely out of touch with average Americans who are trying to pay bills - he insults the integrity of millions of Americans who work hard everyday to provide for their families - Robert Reich is a despicable idiot
April 16, 2009 5:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Why not combine Obama’s illustration of the house built on the sand, and the new movement of the Tea baggers.
Calling them Sand baggers
Sandbagger:
someone who deceives you about his true nature or intent in order to take advantage of you
April 16, 2009 5:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bluemeanie--You are one super smart Shortie(Robert R.'s term,not mine) Of course
48% of the people said tax was about right. After all, 40% do not pay tax so why would they say otherwise. More genuine proof of the near total dumbing down of America!
April 16, 2009 5:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
Calling all Dickons and TPMers - we're under a Drudge type of attack. Chicken and PCA know whereof I speak.
April 16, 2009 6:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
These are rather poor examples.
=D
I was hoping for more...
er, substance?
April 17, 2009 12:05 AM | Reply | Permalink
bwak - can you believe it? Looking at the examples now - you have a major point. Just truck nutz!! and buttsecks!!
Sorry for activating defenses prematurely.
Our day will come again, I bet.
How weird that I just got here a few minutes after you?
Also. ;-)
April 17, 2009 12:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
Idealogues with weak positionsare forced to resort to twisting statistics. So it is with Robert Reich. For example, it is a fact that the Bush tax cuts were greater for the middle class as a percent of their taxes than they were for higher income people. But Reich distorts this by talking about after-tax income. Consider someone making $50,000 who pays taxes of $5,000 and then gets a 10% tax cut of $500. Their after-tax income rises 1.1% from $45,000 to $45,500. Now consider someone making $1,000,000 who pays 30% in taxes, or $300,000, and only gets a 6% tax cut, or $18,000. That person sees her after-tax income rise from $700,000 to $718,000, or 2.6%. So tell me, Mr. Reich, why is that unfair or even relevant? The fact is, as you well know, the middle income taxpayers got a great percent of their taxes cut than did higher income folks. Take your twisted version to the extreme: if someone making $1,000,000 were to be in a 100% bracket and then received a tax cut of $1, you would shout to the denizens that this vile individual just received an increase in after-tax income that is an infinite percentage. Sir, you are spinning populist baloney that does nothing but spur class warfare. Not to mention, of course, your crude characterization of the many hard-working citizens who voiced their honest discontent yesterday with runaway government spending.
April 16, 2009 6:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Who cares about anything else but after tax income? Are you seriously that dim?
Do you always bend over like that? Isn't it hard to walk?
You right-wing 'geniuses' grew govt. so big when you had power, and THEN proceeded to screw the economy, the world, your neighbors, AND yourselves. You still are, and just want to drag everyone down to your primordial ooze level. No, thank you. I've got a nice sharp pitchfork with your nether-regions name engraved on it.
Do you actually think that any intelligent lifeform takes you seriously?
Cluephone: No, no we don't. Your actions speak quite loudly. Your words are spun up into such spectacular contortions, I'm sure your sphincter is caught up in your head someplace.
Here's a ball of bushie dung. Roll on by.
(with a nod to seashell)
Also.
April 17, 2009 12:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
Nodding head vigorously. Cheezburger flew out window.
ROTFLMAO.
(Clink)!
April 17, 2009 12:24 AM | Reply | Permalink
(clink!)
=D
Well, that was fun...I'll see ya around
April 17, 2009 12:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yez. Chat tomorrow nite?
You RAWK!!!
(clink) (clink) !!!!
April 17, 2009 12:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
(clink)
Yez.
(clink)
Also.
April 17, 2009 8:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm still thinking about this, but I think the actual result would be an irrational number, but then again an infinite percentage may be irrational as well.
April 17, 2009 12:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
As someone who has read one of your books and quoted you in a business plan, I find this piece a bit duplicitous. It's not nearly so much about taxes as it is about rampant spending, spending without time allowed to read the bill, much less discuss, debate, weigh alternatives, consider expert opinion...
Take TARP. All but $35B of $700B has been expended. Where? Journalists are having to file under the Freedom of Information Act to find out. And yet, lending, which this enormous expenditure was supposed to rapidly free up, steadily shrinks... down 24% at this point. A big part of a trillion dollars has vanished like hot water on a grill. Who is accountable?
The calculation is that each of my three college-age sons will pay $1,140,000 in taxes over their lifetimes just to cover interest payments on Congress' spending over the last six months. That's a big hit. And nobody in the Admin is saying we've had enough spending already. Just the opposite. And that's just for the interest, before a single govt salary or bridge or submarine is paid for or debt retired.
When you and I were kids, Mr Reich, 1 person in 19 worked in non-military govt at any level. Now the number is 1 in 6. Govt has far outstripped all other segments of the economy in growth. Because govt salaries are paid from taxes, 5 people work to earn the pay of the sixth, including their tax payments. Because Social Security is a ponzi scheme and not real investment, those 5 people also have to pay for another couple of retirees.
There is no room to grow government bigger still, yet you persist. If anyone is demagoguing here, it is you.
April 16, 2009 7:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are an addle-pated lout that wants to return to the days when the old and used up worker was left to fend for themselves in garbage dumps and drop dead in the street. If there was any justice, that would be YOUR future. Preferably in a third world nation where you wouldn't have to worry about TAXES because your wages were poverty level. Always.
We Progressives will ensue that even odious jerks such as yourself will be able to have a roof and three hots. If not in the prison cell you are undoubtably on your way to occupying, then with the greatest "ponzi" scheme ever. One that helps ACTUAL PEOPLE.
April 17, 2009 12:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
Fair warning to all addle-plated louts -
Be careful what you post in TPMCafe. That chicken is not just crossing the road. She is running over addle-pated louts at high speed.
No survivors. Ever.
Truck nutz! You won't be needin' em anymore.
April 17, 2009 12:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
"What's all this I hear about addle plated louts? Don't we have enough problems with the regular louts without plating them with addles?" - Ms. Emily Litella
April 17, 2009 12:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
biguelitoh2o,
It was a hypo. And yes, plating our gouts with baddles doesn't help.
I don't know what you hear. I don't know what I hear either.
"I'm sorry. It won't happen again.... b**ch!"
Can I haz new cheezburger?
April 17, 2009 12:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
ummmm... cheezburgerz... *smacks pig lips*
April 17, 2009 1:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ponzi scheme -- an investment structured so that early investors are paid from the money put up by later ones. Are you folks really not aware that the money collected in payroll taxes is used to pay current Social Security obligations with the balance spent by congress? It is not invested on our behalf, which would help ACTUAL PEOPLE much more.
The rest of your comment has nothing to do with what I said, so I will ignore it.
April 17, 2009 1:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ponzi scheme -- an investment structured so that early investors are paid from the money put up by later ones. Are you folks really not aware that the money collected in payroll taxes is used to pay current Social Security obligations with the balance spent by congress? It is not invested on our behalf, which would help ACTUAL PEOPLE much more.
The rest of your comment has nothing to do with what I said, so I will ignore it.
April 17, 2009 1:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Even when you repeat this nonsense, it doesn't make sense. Have you no education in recent history? Your complaints have been uttered by selfish, ignorant, tools of the wealthy since the day after Social Security was signed into law. In the meantime, Social Security has become the most successful social insurance program, EVER. Got that? It's a fact, Jack.
You are like a petulant child, who never learned that by helping your neighbor, you are in fact helping yourself. Perhaps you spent too much time in the dunce corner in Kindergarten, I don't know, but your sentiments and outright misleading rants about Social Security are offensive, as are creatures like you.
I wish the lot of you would just go start your own selfish-based society somewhere else. Prove to us all how "special" you are by coming up with your own food, buildings, sewer systems, transportation systems, communication systems, and finance systems, and stop freeloading off the one the majority created for the benefit of the majority.
You have a problem with the lowest tax rates on the planet? Then you are an ungrateful wretch that doesn't deserve the benefits of that society you sponge off. If you were a dog, you'd bite the hand that feeds you.
Deplorable.
April 17, 2009 8:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
Whatever Chazzle's motivations really are (and I don't claim to be privy to them), he is right about Social Security's basic design. US Social Security is different than several other similar "safety nets" put in place around the world because of the lack of any upfront investment or "endowment". It would have made a lot of sense when it was introduced to spend the first 5 or 10 years accumulating a large pile of cash that would see it through demographic changes. Instead, it was required to kick into action immediately, which in turn required those currently paying into the system to be supporting those who were being paid by it. I'm an ardent fan of social security (even if I do think that its creation was mostly just one of a number of steps that FDR took to avoid a more revolutionary transformation), and I think that calling it a Ponzi scheme is not helpful. But it is true that it relies on current "investors" to pay out existing beneficiaries, and in this sense, the label does make a limited kind of sense.
April 17, 2009 9:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you, Paul.
Bwakfat, your passion for the current system is much appreciated. Where did you read me complain about taxes? What part of your prized structure am I attacking?
No, in fact, if you read more perceptively, you will see that I am pointing out that this system, that we all have a stake in, is strained like never before. And the rash actions of our national leaders, Republican as well as Democrat, that Mr Reich is trying to paper over in his piece above, threaten it further.
When you've got the taxes of five people paying the salary of one and the retirement benefits of two, how much leeway is there for other grand programs? Or even for filling the potholes? At least, how much room is there without going into ungodly amounts of debt to the Chinese and others and putting our children in hock?
When for 40 years government has grown rapidly while all other segments (the productive segments) have shrunk as a percentage of our economy, you've got trouble. All of our dreams, yours and mine, are threatened.
April 17, 2009 10:19 AM | Reply | Permalink
April 17, 2009 1:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Absolutely. I just spent 6 months living (& teaching) in Berlin, and one of the many things that struck me was the almost complete lack of any "desperation". Several people explained to me how you can live in Germany without a job - its not much of a life, but its also not an existence that induces people to do crazy stuff, nor is it preceeded by deep fear. I came back to Philadelphia and thought about all the people in this city who feel that they have no choices, no stake in a positive civic society and/or huge fear of what might happen to them if they make a single wrong choice in life. The ultra-wealthy in the US have always understood that a certain safety net is needed to avoid "problems", but their definition of "safety" has always been woeful and for 30 years has been marked down even from that level by a bunch of neo-cons who can't even grasp this basic idea.
April 17, 2009 3:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Amen, brother.
April 17, 2009 4:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
That is sweet. A sock coming to aid a sock?
Now really, I'd think it would only take one of you to disable a populist chicken with a pitchfork.
Ponzi scheme is not in any way shape or form a term which describes social security.
I suggest you read up on it, it's quite obvious you are clueless to the meaning of BOTH terms.
Start here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20041001-20051231re_/http://www.ssa.gov/history/ponzi.html
Now can you tell the difference between a Ponzi Scheme and a Pay-as-you-go system?
No?
Try this question, then.
Q: What's the difference between a thief and a Republican?
A: Getting caught.
April 17, 2009 1:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Is this useless ad hominem all you have? If this was the best anyone could offer as a defense of the way US social security has been structured since its inception, then the system would really be in trouble. Thankfully, there are much more articulate folks around who can do the job that you apparently can't. The system is fragile. Observing this doesn't make one an opponent of it (and I actually think that not only is SS highly desirable, I would like to see it dramatically expanded to a level closer to that seen in european countries).
I strongly suspect that I do not share Chazzle's political leanings, and am closer to yours (actually, giving a childhood in the UK with a lifelong member of the communist party for a grandmother, probably notably to the left of yours). But your worthless ad hominems and pointless pedantry seem to defeat any hope of actually supporting whatever it is you are arguing for.
April 17, 2009 3:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
ad hominem?
Apparently you don't understand the definition of that term, either. Pointing it out is hardly ad hominem.
The proper, polite response when someone haz larn'd you, dude, is: "Thank you."
Now go forth and use "ponzi scheme" correctly.
You are welcome.
April 17, 2009 4:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
I read with particular interest Mr. Reich's point #6, wherein he states that "We have a patriotic duty to pay taxes." Apparently NUMEROUS "patriots" now serving in rather high posts within the BHO administration did NOT know this, most notably the head of the Internal Revenue Service, Mr. Secretary Geithner. I'm paying mine with an I.O.U. and a letter acknowledging my "stupid mistake", and taking "full responsibility" for the error. Maybe I, too, will be considered for a cabinet level position!
April 17, 2009 2:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Bwakfat,
You are absolutely correct. Social Security is NOT a scheme devised by Charles Ponzi. However, it does share the essential similarity that the last money in pays back earlier contributors. Ergo, my key point stands. With the number of people working for government having tripled in the last 40 years from just over 5% of our population to more than 16% and with the population shifting demographically older (especially as us Baby Boomers head to retirement), there is not much room to grow govt on the back of taxpayers. The plan to grow govt on the strength of debt just passes the problem on to the next generations and does so in a way that takes away choices they may prefer to make.
Thank you for your thoughts, Paul. Just to be clear, I am trying to make a demographic rather than a political argument. I have no problem with taxes, safety nets, what have you. I do have a problem with maneuvers that promise to damage both public and private efforts to prosper.
April 17, 2009 8:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow Tanner, you conservatives certainly don't win points for originality. Every time the matter of the economy comes up, on cue like a wind-up toy, you cart out the "Community Reinvestment Act and Fannie Mae brought down the economy" line and conveniently ignore the other 10,000 some-odd factors that were involved in this collapse.
And how do you expect to have your dogma on "individual responsibility" taken seriously when you apologize and excuse away the greed of financial professionals and consumers because of "incentives put in place by our government." Your pigheadedness is only exceeded by your hypocrisy.
Go get Macroeconomics for Dummies and try to learn something.
April 18, 2009 6:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree that the government must step in when the private sector can't, but don't ignore the differences between this stimulus package and the New Deal. The New Deal generated public debt to build massive amounts of infrastructure, much of which we still rely on. This stimulus package has focused on generating public debt to encourage more private debt. Given that we can't manage the amount of debt, both public and private, currently on the table, how is this going to work?
April 20, 2009 10:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
So MMfA, rather than charge class warfare, which is the pot calling the kettle black as the left routinely does it - why not answer Stuart Varney's question " Is it "fair" for government to take "half" of money earned by those who "succeed" and give it to others because they make less money?" And the rest of his comments. They are damn good.
appetite suppressants
June 21, 2010 5:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
An friend from law school, now a partner in one of Washington's wealthiest law firms, explained to me one day over lunch spoke to me on how Auto transporting had his car delivered on time for his conference. He mentioned how much of a great company they are, and also how he and his partners use tax rules to create offsetting taxable gains and losses, then allocate the gains to the firm's foreign partners who don't pay taxes in the United States. They keep all of their losses here and shelter their income abroad.
June 25, 2010 11:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
An friend from law school, now a partner in one of Washington's wealthiest law firms, explained to me one day over lunch spoke to me on how Auto transporting had his car delivered on time for his conference. He mentioned how much of a great company they are, and also how he and his partners use tax rules to create offsetting taxable gains and losses, then allocate the gains to the firm's foreign partners who don't pay taxes in the United States. They keep all of their losses here and shelter their income abroad.
June 25, 2010 11:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
lets all be like robin hood, in our state they take money from the rich district and give it to the poor is that justice or what scented rocks
scented stones
September 5, 2010 11:02 PM | Reply | Permalink