Why the Left is Impotent
Can you hear that giant sucking sound? That's the sound of your hopes and dreams going south.
List the issues where the Left has engaged and you'll arrive at about the number of issues where the Left has been powerless to achieve its goals: FISA. Torture accountability. Guantanamo detainees. Wall Street malpractice. Health care. Cap and trade. Afghanistan.
And that's just the short list of issues that Progressives (using this term interchangeably with "the Left") have failed to influence to any practical degree. It's enough to make us weep, bang our fists on tabletops and rant about outlandish fortune (or Obama's milquetoast treachery) in blog post after blog post. But we're overlooking the real culprits, and no, it's not the military-industrial-fundamentalist-CIA-GOP complex, either.
Why, oh why, are we losing fight after fight when it was our own mighty efforts that elected the nation's first black president and stemmed the tide of the Bush/Cheney era? Why aren't our voices being taken seriously? Why are we suddenly so impotent in securing the change we once believed in?
Why?
Three words. Incompetent grassroots leaders.
I've seen it time and time again, up close and personal, in a myriad of groups, ever since Obama's inauguration. The People Power unleashed last year has gone flaccid. It's lost that lovin' feeling.
There was the bus trip to Washington I took in July as part of the H-CAN rally. Gamaliel--the same organization that once trained Obama in community organizing-- had chartered the bus from Chicago to carry some participants. It arrived three hours late at our rendezvous point in Indianapolis because of problems with the air conditioning system, which broke down before the bus even left Chicago.
And then it broke down three more times in Washington and on the return trip.
With windows that would not open except if jettisoned completely in an emergency, the bus lumbered along with only brief periods of functional air conditioning. For hours at a time, its 59 passengers suffered and perspired like fountains, with one asthmatic woman laboring to breathe and one young man literally passing out from the oven-like heat on board our mobile summer sardine can. An elderly gentleman was so disoriented that he walked into the side of the bus during a rest stop and split his head open.
The cohort of Chicago clergy leading our group did nothing to stop the calamity. Not until two people left the bus to rent a car back home did they contact Gamaliel's home office to request the dispatch of a new bus. Instead, despite heated exchanges with disgruntled passengers, they forced everyone to risk--and in some cases, surrender--their health in the cause of ... wait for it ... health care reform.
"We has met the enemy and he is us," Pogo said. Or as Shakespeare put it centuries before: "The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars but in ourselves that we are underlings."
Here at TPMCafe, several bloggers (myself included) were drafted to go to Washington for a rally in August. Bloggers and readers (just like you!) ponied up over $1,200 to send me and another blogger to represent support for Single-Payer. We did that. Me and the other 300 or so people who attended the event. Yep, just 300 from all across the country. (Congressional-sized yawn.)
I don't fault our earnest TPM organizers, but the rally's sponsoring organization, HealthCare NOW!. Its leaders should have canceled the event, knowing that they expected less than 1,000 people to turn out (as I discovered the day before I left).
Today, I attended a meeting of a dozen zealots who are all energy and no discernible purpose. Tomorrow, they will stage a sit-in at the Anthem Blue Cross/Blue Shield headquarters with the intention of netting a few civil disobedience arrests for trespassing.
When I asked a few questions about their messaging and what their desired effect on health care reform was, they became aggressive and dismissive. "That's not important. We need to get back to the plan," I was told, as they busied themselves around a large drawing pad like Hogan's heroes.
They will be lucky to make 30 seconds on the local news, let alone any impact on health care legislation pending before Congress. In the end, I declined to attend.
But these are only small groups, you might say. Surely, larger groups like Organizing for America are led by competent leaders.
You might be right in your neck of the woods, but I doubt it. I spent two months trying to get an unpaid internship at Organizing for America. I received an email a couple weeks after I filled out the online application. It said that all local internship positions had been filled.
I pressed for an explanation with the local field director, who had encouraged me to apply. She finally got back to me three phone calls and a month later. I was scheduled in last week to meet her and discuss the internship. Oh, and could I do a little phone-banking until she arrived? Certainly, I said.
She never showed.
"I'll be there tomorrow night," she told me later. "For sure." I came in again the next night, just as she was leaving the office almost an hour early.
"If I'm going to drive 10 miles to come in, the trip and my gas costs should be worth it," I told her, "especially since I'm on SSI and it took me three days just to round up $9 to put in my tank."
"You can always call from home," she said. "I'll email you the link and a password" for OFA's online phone list. Two days later, with no email and no answer, I left a pointed resignation on her voice mail.
And then there's ACORN, and ... well, you get the idea.
Progressives are poorly led and poorly served by our grassroots leaders. The caliber of people recruited and put in charge of things just ain't what it used to be during the presidential campaign.
We are led by the flakes and the well-intentioned. Impassioned zealots rather than careful achievers. The rudely neglectful rather than the conscientiously respectful. Those who burn through volunteers like engine oil in an '87 Ford Escort.
No wonder the Left is impotent to effect its desired change. If our grassroots leadership reflects our best and brightest, then we truly have met ourselves in Pogo's epiphany of blame.
List the issues where the Left has engaged and you'll arrive at about the number of issues where the Left has been powerless to achieve its goals: FISA. Torture accountability. Guantanamo detainees. Wall Street malpractice. Health care. Cap and trade. Afghanistan.
And that's just the short list of issues that Progressives (using this term interchangeably with "the Left") have failed to influence to any practical degree. It's enough to make us weep, bang our fists on tabletops and rant about outlandish fortune (or Obama's milquetoast treachery) in blog post after blog post. But we're overlooking the real culprits, and no, it's not the military-industrial-fundamentalist-CIA-GOP complex, either.
Why, oh why, are we losing fight after fight when it was our own mighty efforts that elected the nation's first black president and stemmed the tide of the Bush/Cheney era? Why aren't our voices being taken seriously? Why are we suddenly so impotent in securing the change we once believed in?
Why?
Three words. Incompetent grassroots leaders.
I've seen it time and time again, up close and personal, in a myriad of groups, ever since Obama's inauguration. The People Power unleashed last year has gone flaccid. It's lost that lovin' feeling.
There was the bus trip to Washington I took in July as part of the H-CAN rally. Gamaliel--the same organization that once trained Obama in community organizing-- had chartered the bus from Chicago to carry some participants. It arrived three hours late at our rendezvous point in Indianapolis because of problems with the air conditioning system, which broke down before the bus even left Chicago.
And then it broke down three more times in Washington and on the return trip.
With windows that would not open except if jettisoned completely in an emergency, the bus lumbered along with only brief periods of functional air conditioning. For hours at a time, its 59 passengers suffered and perspired like fountains, with one asthmatic woman laboring to breathe and one young man literally passing out from the oven-like heat on board our mobile summer sardine can. An elderly gentleman was so disoriented that he walked into the side of the bus during a rest stop and split his head open.
The cohort of Chicago clergy leading our group did nothing to stop the calamity. Not until two people left the bus to rent a car back home did they contact Gamaliel's home office to request the dispatch of a new bus. Instead, despite heated exchanges with disgruntled passengers, they forced everyone to risk--and in some cases, surrender--their health in the cause of ... wait for it ... health care reform.
"We has met the enemy and he is us," Pogo said. Or as Shakespeare put it centuries before: "The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars but in ourselves that we are underlings."
Here at TPMCafe, several bloggers (myself included) were drafted to go to Washington for a rally in August. Bloggers and readers (just like you!) ponied up over $1,200 to send me and another blogger to represent support for Single-Payer. We did that. Me and the other 300 or so people who attended the event. Yep, just 300 from all across the country. (Congressional-sized yawn.)
I don't fault our earnest TPM organizers, but the rally's sponsoring organization, HealthCare NOW!. Its leaders should have canceled the event, knowing that they expected less than 1,000 people to turn out (as I discovered the day before I left).
Today, I attended a meeting of a dozen zealots who are all energy and no discernible purpose. Tomorrow, they will stage a sit-in at the Anthem Blue Cross/Blue Shield headquarters with the intention of netting a few civil disobedience arrests for trespassing.
When I asked a few questions about their messaging and what their desired effect on health care reform was, they became aggressive and dismissive. "That's not important. We need to get back to the plan," I was told, as they busied themselves around a large drawing pad like Hogan's heroes.
They will be lucky to make 30 seconds on the local news, let alone any impact on health care legislation pending before Congress. In the end, I declined to attend.
But these are only small groups, you might say. Surely, larger groups like Organizing for America are led by competent leaders.
You might be right in your neck of the woods, but I doubt it. I spent two months trying to get an unpaid internship at Organizing for America. I received an email a couple weeks after I filled out the online application. It said that all local internship positions had been filled.
I pressed for an explanation with the local field director, who had encouraged me to apply. She finally got back to me three phone calls and a month later. I was scheduled in last week to meet her and discuss the internship. Oh, and could I do a little phone-banking until she arrived? Certainly, I said.
She never showed.
"I'll be there tomorrow night," she told me later. "For sure." I came in again the next night, just as she was leaving the office almost an hour early.
"If I'm going to drive 10 miles to come in, the trip and my gas costs should be worth it," I told her, "especially since I'm on SSI and it took me three days just to round up $9 to put in my tank."
"You can always call from home," she said. "I'll email you the link and a password" for OFA's online phone list. Two days later, with no email and no answer, I left a pointed resignation on her voice mail.
And then there's ACORN, and ... well, you get the idea.
Progressives are poorly led and poorly served by our grassroots leaders. The caliber of people recruited and put in charge of things just ain't what it used to be during the presidential campaign.
We are led by the flakes and the well-intentioned. Impassioned zealots rather than careful achievers. The rudely neglectful rather than the conscientiously respectful. Those who burn through volunteers like engine oil in an '87 Ford Escort.
No wonder the Left is impotent to effect its desired change. If our grassroots leadership reflects our best and brightest, then we truly have met ourselves in Pogo's epiphany of blame.
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1000% Right! However, this criticism is also often met with complaints that since Obama isn't "stepping up" why should they put forth any effort. Which is very disappointing because this isn't about making Obama look good, this is about (at least to me) getting legislation passed that will benefit the poor and the middle class. Why punish 300 million people to teach Obama a lesson?
November 1, 2009 8:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good point. Moreover, Progressives took Obama's words to heart only selectively. The part everyone forgets is this: "I am asking you to believe, not just in my ability to bring about a real change in Washington, I'm asking you to believe in yours."
November 1, 2009 8:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Somehow I thought you supported Obama, Ripper, which would make you a centrist/corporatist clown.
And now you jump out of the closet!
"Surprise! I'm a progressive!"
Okey, better late than never, and you look absolutely FABULOUS in that dress!
November 2, 2009 6:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for this post. I'm participating in a free health clinic in my city. If the tea-baggers can get their message out, Progressives should be as efficient in organizing.
November 1, 2009 9:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good for you, rmrd0000! Sounds like a good event. Let us know how it goes. And my thoughts exactly.
November 1, 2009 9:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ripper,
The left was getting highly organized and focused and then along came Obama and all of it came to a screeching halt. Since about the time Moveon endorsed Obama, whatever nascent "movement" there was died as all energy was (and remains) devoted to furthering the Obama agenda. Unfortunately, the Obama agenda has almost nothing to do with the aims of the left. So what we have is a left that completely demobilized on behalf of Obama believing naively that he would pursue their agenda. It's quite clear he never had any intention of pursuing anything but the most diluted changes in our rotten system. In the foolish committment to Obama the left has essentially abandoned much of the agenda it developed during the Bush years since Obama has adopted most of the things the left objected to during the Bush years such as endless wars abroad, ultra secrecy in government, cover up of war crimes and protection of war criminals, etc...
That's why the left is impotent today. It bet the farm on Obama and it turns out Obama is more interested in protecting and maintaining the status quo than in changing anything in Washington.
November 1, 2009 9:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
oleeb, I won't really defend Obama here, but I think you're placing far too much emphasis on him. I agree that Obama sucked a lot of oxygen out of the room and that OFA continues to do that while diluting the Progressive agenda.
The part I don't agree with is the notion that it's all Obama's fault that the Left is impotent. The keyword in your comment is "naively." Yes, the Left naively believed that Obama would pursue its agenda. But I don't think the commitment to his election was foolish because I don't think the viable alternatives were any more Progressive than him. To me, the foolish part was and is laying back after the election and believing against all the evidence and even against Obama's own warnings, that he was going to do the heavy lifting. Clearly, that is NOT what he had in mind. And it is the Left that has refused to shoulder the burden that it expects others will carry for it.
November 1, 2009 9:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think it's Obama's fault at all. It is the fault of the leaders of a number of left wing groups like Moveon for turning over all responsibility for their agenda to Obama and it is the fault of the same leaders on the left that so many (not all)have fallen in line with emphasizing loyalty to the leader and abandonded the left's agenda for the sake of making Obama successful in (ironically) undermining the agenda of the left which is, in large part, what he is doing.
November 2, 2009 12:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry, but that's a total cop out. Obama doesn't control your minds, he can't put a stop to any group that chooses to organize and neither can OFA. You accuse the president of maintaining the status quo, but what do you call what the Left is doing? Or any American for that matter. Taking your ball and going home when things don't go your way, then complain endlessly that the powers that be are too powerful so why even try? Complacency is also the status quo.
I hate to break it to you, but Obama is the best chance you have to get any of your agenda passed. Work with him (not for him)or remain powerless and resentful. When he said change doesn't come from Washington, it comes to Washington, he wasn't talking about himself.
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/oldengoldendecoy/2009/10/obama-you-think-you-know-who-youre-talking-about.php
November 1, 2009 10:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bah!
Best chance? Give me a break. The man is a DLC Democrat through and through. He wants nothing to do with even liberal positions let alone anything on the left. And it is not Obama's fault in any way. It is, as I've made clear above, the fault of the gullible and foolish leaders of numerous organizations on the left who essentially abandoned their principles and their agenda to support Obama's corporate centrist, pro-Wall Street, pro-insurance industry agenda of servicing the same rotten, corrupt forces the Republicans serve except in a slightly more favorable way.
November 2, 2009 12:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Frustrating, huh?
But seriously... I remember trying to remind people that Obama was not "The Most Liberal" Senator as the Right was trying to paint him... I remember trying to prepare people for a corporate friendly kind of Dem (DLC-ish)...
I'm not surprised at the way things are going, really. I'll admit I was expecting a little more and I am disappointed in many things...
But when compared to the smoldering pit we'd be had McCain been elected... I've gotta say I'm pretty pleased.
Now... I do think that the GOP "THREW" the election all together. I said as much when Palin was chosen. Why? Because they knew some tough shit was coming down the pipe and they didn't want to look bad trying to deal with it. They'd rather just let Obama and company struggle mightily as they obstructed and stood idly by pointing fingers...
Then they'd run in 2012 (just when things are starting to get a little stabilized although it'd be hard to see)... and hope to beat Obama. This is possible. Then as things started looking up, they'd take credit for it.
Still... Obama does seem to have foresaken the Liberal Left that gave it's blood, sweat, and tears to get him elected...
This is NO WAY to treat your base.
November 2, 2009 2:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Like the other DLC/corporate Dems in DC, Obama treats the left with disfain and contempt as is glaringly apparent in his stands on domestic spying, refusal to even investigate torture, his ass kissing of Goldman Sachs, his refuszal to provide any real relief to homeowners on mortgages, his constant indulgence of Republican interests, and his lying about transparency being "the hallmark of my Presidency" not to mention the full sellout on healthcare in order to service the needs of big pharma and insurance.
Yes, he is better than McCain. But it simply isn't enough that he's not McCain or some other Republican when the outcomes are, in far too many instances of consequence, identical to Bush, or as in the case of the state secrets privelege: worse.
November 2, 2009 3:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oleeb,
I'm not sure what to say to your comment except that it reflects a certain alternative history that I've been seeing around the blogs. I'll refer you to Al Giordano's comments:
"Because as everybody knows 'progressives' were one big happy united family that never fought about anything before that pesky Obama came along to win the White House, er, divide 'progressives.'"
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/peter-daou/dont-bother-waiting-for-b_b_335095.html?show_comment_id=33503615#comment_33503615
But in your formulation, the Left was co-opted, not divided, right?
November 2, 2009 6:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Suckered or bamboozled are better words I think, but yes, co-opted will do.
November 3, 2009 2:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm always saddened that more Gen X and Gen Y people aren't activist; hell, it's the world they are inheriting! We old geezers only have so much effort left, yet we are carrying the ball for the most part.
November 1, 2009 9:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
No kidding, wendy. Man, is my back sore!
November 1, 2009 9:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
You can answer your own question by just looking at TPMCafe.
The group here gets older and older while performing love ins with stories of Jack and Bobby and Martin.
Very few columns here actually teach anything. They are, rather, what Walt Whitman would call "A song to ourselves".
The general hypocritical nature where it's okay to state sexist things so long as it's against men, racist things so long as it's against whites, and on and on about "the rich"...
...shows you that the young just aren't willing to join you. We do have our own things going on. Trust me.
Few here know the first thing about real politics. And if you aren't willing to know that, then you better be ready to really get out the pitchforks many so often like to tout.
But the fact is that like cackling chickens, there is a lot of noise but no action. Go ahead, take a poll. The fact that most of the TPM posters are over 50 (and I'm guessing far more than half are women), shows that this is hardly a community of ideas, but rather an entity that drives for it's own limited agenda.
TPM Cafe has done a marvelous job isolating itself from a diversity of voices. But you now have that coffee klatch you (plural) were all so desirous to find.
Safe. Homogeneous. Impotent.
You reap what you sow, you know.
I don't care if you've had your head cracked 40 years ago in Chicago. It's time for one and all to remember that it's today, not yesterday.
November 2, 2009 12:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well good grief, tell us what you mean about 'real politics'!
I can believe that even after 40 years of activism, I may have a veil over my eyes, for a variety of reasons, including predisposition and narrow vision.
Please tell what the younger folks have going; and what actions you are talking about. And what ideas. I confess that folks like zipperupus may try to teach, but there is no way I can understand the language that he uses, in the form he uses it, so utterly detached and mathematical. I can understand you some of the time, but not all of the time. Many of the others here at the Cafe are expert in union, energy issues, finance, government, sociology--I thought I was learning things from them.
It does feel sometimes like we engage in mental masturbation, myself included, of course. Some days this is what I have left; maybe it's that way for many of us geezers.
November 2, 2009 7:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Don't waste your time. It's not looking for comment. It's looking to harass you.
It wants attention. Ignore it and it will seek that attention elsewhere.
November 2, 2009 9:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you for the advice, Grouch. I was taken aback for instant, since I am but a Cackling Chicken; I do laugh at myself often, wondering, "Who gives a flying fig what you think, Davis?"
Your roasted tomato recipe tasted good, by the way.
And below you answered some of my questions to the Thinker, and though targeted, I wish the effects could seem broader. Issues ads on the right seem to gain lots of traction; it's sad that Moveon ads miss the mark so often.
Gettin out a cohesive message is hard; often the issues and answers are complex. Republican bumper stickers are succinct, if not often true.
It is also hard not to tie an issue into partisan politics, in most cases Dems. As the Dems are increasingly tied to Corporate money and agendas, it makes it harder to defend them. Black/white serves us not very well.
November 2, 2009 10:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
I was going to hop in earlier, but I thought it best to ignore. Seems like an awful lot of axes he's got grinding there, wendy. Us oldies still have a lot going for us, too. I haven't noticed alack of willingness to engage with youth, and my post was never intended as age-specific.
November 2, 2009 10:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
I've been interested in the age-related collapse of support for Obama over this past year. It's very strong within one particular age group, and the decline has grown worse, month after month. Here's the dKos poll for this week, approval versus not -
Age 18-29 = 81-12
Age 30-44 = 44-46
Age 45-59 = 64-28
Age 60+ = 41-53
Odd, eh? The way younger people still strongly support him, and the core boomer age group strongly supports him, but the 30-44 year olds (born 1965-79) have dramatically reduced their support.
I'm inclined to believe this is less a reflection of the opinions of that generation as a whole, and more the result of their demographic possessing what we call the "gutless little shit" subgroup, which consists largely of perverts and subtards, who (sadly for all) tend to speak at much greater volume than their peers.
November 2, 2009 11:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
The defining film of that sub-demographic?
Interesting self-criticism here.
November 2, 2009 12:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
"I blame 80s heavy metal. "Poison", "Megadeth", you get the idea..." :-)
November 2, 2009 4:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
yeah, I saw that one, "hypnotoad" :-) hey, that reminds me, if I recall an in-depth article on him correctly, John Walker Lindh was deep into the deepest death metal scene before he went Talib....
November 2, 2009 4:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not sure "support" = activism on issues. I suspect it doesn't.
November 2, 2009 12:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're absolutely right. I was only responding to the tired blaming of the over-50's and Boomers that certain overinflated 30-50 year olds like to engage in, as a cover for their own sorry stories of selling out, flopping and otherwise getting fuck all accomplished.
I got my problems with the Boomers, and its own sediment of assholes and loudmouths, but the idea that those a decade younger knew some magical way forward, or had some bright and shining political vision, or have accomplished such great things just won't pass the sniff test.
The big generational divide is born post-WW2 and pre-WW2. The rest of us are all just slices from the same pie.
November 2, 2009 12:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
These 30-44s are the ones whose workplace profiles always talk about how they feel they "deserve" to be challenged at their jobs, and if us olds farts in our late 40s don't want to just step aside and let them indulge their wonderfulness as they see fit, well, we just fail to get that the workplace has changed, and that we really have nothing left to offer.
I mean, if you're not financially able to retire by the time you're fifty, what the fuck is wrong with you anyway?
Similarly, if Obama has not reversed almost forty years of economic decline in nine-and-a-half months, why can't he just step aside and let a real progressive show him how it's done?
November 2, 2009 2:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Quinn, why do you hold back so much - stop pussyfootin' man!
Seriously, I've had my bouts of generational resentment - especially towards boomers, partly because they're so narcissistic. How often have we heard of how these were the first generation of children to WATCH TV! I mean wow TV. TV!! As if radio didn't have 95% of the effect on the psyche that TV did. The WWII generation were practically cavemen with their damn radios.
The thing is, the same TYPE of yuppie jerk that voted for Reagan is the same type who calls Obama a fascist communist today.
November 2, 2009 4:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
The big generational divide is born post-WW2 and pre-WW2
3 words: "The G-I Bill."
There's some talk downthread like the loss of manufacturing and other blue collar jobs were forced upon people by some mysterious cabal (sort of like the same ones running the world in "Network").
In my view, there's one generalization about a generation that one can make that applies to a majority of that generation. The "greatest generation" thought the G-I bill the bees knees, they saw it as a great eye opener about class mobility, they saw a way out of physical labor and movement up the class ladder, and the majority of them wanted their kids to go to college and get white collar jobs. That's what they wanted, that became "the American dream," replaced the homestead thing.
Blue collar jobs went away partly because few wanted their kids working them, not after the G.I.Bill, you couldn't keep 'em down on the farm/factory, so to speak. To them, blue collar meant slavery to the man, and white collar was moving up the ladder. My son's going to be a doctor, my son's going to be a lawyer, my son's going to work at a desk, my son's going to be president...
Yes of course there were some tradesmen in that generation proud of their craft or union that wanted their kids to follow suit (just as there were some women who wanted their daughters to be happy 50's homemakers with 4.5 children.) But they were a minority.
Actually, part of the reaction of the "silent majority" to us boomer hippies protesting on campus was disgust at not appreciating the gifts we were being given by them, something they didn't have, a path to a white collar job, the college education that they worked hard at blue collar jobs to provide.
November 2, 2009 8:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, because ya'll have been so much more effective these last 40 years since the "revolution" was mostly televised.
Seems to me we keep fighting the same battles over and over again with the same lackluster and
mediocre results.
Your failure must be our fault since we had the temerity to be born and screw up your grand vision.
November 2, 2009 11:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
The 30-44 group may be the most brainwashed by Reaganomics. They still think it's got time to trickle down to them.
November 2, 2009 2:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
They entered the workforce largely during the Clinton boom, and still haven't figured out what an anomaly that brief period was.
November 2, 2009 2:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
We were in high school when Reagan was elected. Don't blame that shit on us.
November 2, 2009 11:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
There's far wider spectrum of opinion here than say, Politico or right wing sites. Just ask me - I was called out for saying that we shouldn't tell young girls to be all slutty.
November 2, 2009 4:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well I used to be a woman but I now take Viagra and get a discount through the AARP.
THERE I SAID IT
November 2, 2009 5:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
We are activist in the best sense of the word - meaning we are more results oriented than making nocie for the sake of shouting the loudest. That is the main generational shift taking place.
November 2, 2009 11:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
This idea that the left is impotent because of "incompetent grassroots leaders" might be close the mark if intended in one sense, but with elaboration this poster reveals a lack of understanding.
More precisely, the leaders of grassroots movements like HCAN are not "incompetent." They're competent at furthering their own status as leaders, but not committed to the reforms this country needs, which include a non-profit insurance system. The whole purpose of their organizations is wrong: it's a bait and switch. And I see no reason why an event should be canceled because it has low turnout. That does not make sense.
November 1, 2009 10:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
I can't find anything in my post that "reveals a lack of understanding" since I'm thoroughly familiar with the topic, but hey, if you say so. The fact that H-CAN's position has changed over time in step with the legislative process and what it considers possible is not surprising, nor do I consider it bait and switch, as you do.
More importantly, my thesis ranges far beyond the health care debate or any one organization's portrayal of its mission.
November 1, 2009 10:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Further reply: My point is that the Left has been ill-served by incompetent leadership, and I still think the failure of its agenda is not primarily due to any softening of positions on issues, but rather an inability to attract and mobilize support for its positions. And for that, I blame poor leadership. It is a bit circular in cause and effect.
Regarding canceling a national rally when attendance is never advertised or expected to exceed 1,000, I think it makes perfect sense--unless you don't care that only 300 might attend, that even 1,000 barely equals a lunch crowd, or that those who do attend will feel betrayed having spent time and money to attend a flop. But then, why was a certified Single-Payer event such a flop in the first place, unless Single-Payer itself is poorly supported or the group's leadership was incompetent?
November 1, 2009 10:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's one guess... the PACs tend to isolate themselves rather than joining forces.
Communication to volunteers and would-be participants is also lacking severely. Generally, I receive notice of some action the day before its scheduled to occur... extremely unhelpful... so you do what you can with the info you've got.
The Showdown in Chicago attracted more protesters because various groups participated... health care reform would have benefited from an all for one approach rather than the fractitious movements all running in different directions.
Anyway, giving up isn't an option. Just keep on keepin' on.
November 2, 2009 7:13 AM | Reply | Permalink
kfreed, you are absolutely right. I've made that point before, that the groups have no real working relationship and view their memberships as fiefdoms. Excellent elaboration you've got there.
November 2, 2009 10:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
That's a good link khin. Thanks for posting it.
November 2, 2009 12:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
It does seem that the right wing is better at organizing and propagandizing.
The propagandizing is understandable since 'the left' will get interested in an issue, discuss the issue, research the issue, argue the issue...
The right will just follow. Bachmann can say the most inane things and only some intellectuals will question what she says, research her conclusions....
Maybe that is why the right has an easier time organizing and the funding is so much easier with the oligarchy backing everything.
I do not know.
We just need to try harder, I guess.
November 2, 2009 4:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think the right are rather amazing in their ability to do what you just described.
They're hard to deal with...
And as for the left:
[img]http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a139/thisischer/comic1-1.jpg[/img]
Heardin' Cats, I tells ya!
November 2, 2009 3:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
[url] http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a139/thisischer/comic1-1.jpg [/url]
http://i10.photobucket.com/albums/a139/thisischer/comic1-1.jpg
(I can't figure this stuff out :) )
November 2, 2009 3:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
If the bus trip to Washington was better organized, Ripper, do you think that would have given a real boost to single payer health care? I tend to doubt that very much.
A major reason that serious progressive health care reform is an uphill battle is that too many Americans still do not support serious progressive health care reform. And when they do support it, their support is often confused, ill-informed, vacillating and subject to easy manipulative exploitation by the forces of the status quo. The problem isn't mainly in Washington; it's among your neighbors. And I doubt these neighbors pay much attention to the latest "march on Washington".
The left spends too much time on old-fashioned public demonstrations and petitioning the government, and not nearly enough time figuring out how to get our beliefs inside the heads of other people. That's not surprising, since most progressives don't even seem to know anymore why they believe what they believe. Their attitudes are merely an expression of "identity" and untutored emotional disposition, and they have not the slightest idea how to change the mind of a person who doesn't already agree with them.
Vigils, marches, demonstrations? This isn't how social change occurs anymore. We need to get out of the 19th century.
November 2, 2009 7:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
How sadly true. No one reads petitions, no one cares about marches - especially when the marchers are carrying on about dozens of disparate things simultaneously.
I'll further that by pointing out that legislative victories are perceived by far more people as "legitimate" than judicial ones.
Some time ago, we abandoned our communications infrastructure, believing instead that the inherent "correctness" of our positions was enough. It's not. Ideas, even good ideas, need to be made "sticky" and put out in the world to gain traction.
It's also why Howard Dean flamed out in Iowa. It wasn't "the scream" - that came after the fact. It was the orange-hatted children's crusade telling far more experienced - and politically savvy - Iowa voters what they ought to be believing. (That, and that he, through the efforts of the lamentable Joe Trippi, burned through all his campaign cash in the process!) The kids were seen as arrogant brats by the seasoned Iowans.
One of the positives of the last few years is the Dems developing something of a bench. Now we need to nurture that bench, use the existing structure to move a bit more to the left at a time, and make very sure our ideas are (a) comprehensibile, (b) coherent, (c) relevant to voters, and (d) memorable.
And MoveOn ain't gonna get it done. They, and many of our outside organizations, have become liabilities. ACORN? Sorry - don't let the door hit you on the way out. (Is a basic level of both competence and ethics really all that much to ask?) And does HealthcareNOW even qualify as an organization, given Ripper's experience detailed above?
Focus, simplify, make sure it's both right and resonant, and stop haranguing when persuading will work far better. And leave the petitions at home with the protest signs.
Like it or not, Obama's organization worked last year. It worked incredibly well. There are lessons there for the learning. And it's not (yet) too late.
November 2, 2009 9:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for the additional insight, Grouch. As others here have suggested, liberals had better evolve or get used to getting their asses kicked. I'm just worried that so many on the deep bench of experience are getting older and may not be viable candidates in another few years.
November 2, 2009 11:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
DK,
I think there is a solid ring of truth in what you say here. I don't mean to discount the whoesale, public advocacy, semi-confrontational tactics that many espouse(I guess it all adds up), but I STILL believe your basic RETAIL notion about getting ideas into other people is at the heart of the matter. Your point about "neighbors" is equally well taken: If I can't convince the person beside me at the supermarket, or the person who resides across my backyard fence (or can't be bothered to try), I'm unlikely to have any better luck with the anonymous masses.
November 2, 2009 9:25 AM | Reply | Permalink
Dan, I can't answer your first question, but I do know that over 50 solid volunteers were highly demoralized on that trip, which I exhibited here as symptomatic of the dysfunctional leadership of the Left.
As for the rest of your comment, I say effin' A. You couldn't be more correct. Dead-right analysis.
November 2, 2009 11:04 AM | Reply | Permalink
Right on, Ripper. You nailed this one to post with with a 16 penny exclamation point.
You also happened to hit on the reason I didn't become a democrat when looking for a party to call home and work to change from the inside instead of continuing to cop-out as an apathetic independent looking in.
I am not quite sure how to inspire and motivate the 80% of voters who won't bother to turn out for primaries this year, let alone motivate Washington to respond to our demands without that such a paradigm shift. We're in a tight spot which is why I am such an advocate of probity and courtesy at the grassroots. Fighting each other is clearly not the answer.
Hold fast, shipmate. We'll get there if it's worth getting to or pick a new destination if it isn't.
November 2, 2009 8:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
Not the political platforms and beliefs? Hmmm.
November 2, 2009 10:46 AM | Reply | Permalink
wendy, I think a lot of people here (the majority) have Jason incorrectly pegged. He's actually a good guy with liberal values, though he has a different POV oftentimes.
November 2, 2009 11:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
I was just a-giggle at JEM stating the reason he joined the Republican Party was their organizational skills. It didn't quite align with his credo. I'm more or less fine with JEM, Ripper.
And thanks for giving us a liitle slap to the back of the head: Thanks, I needed that! (they sayed.)
November 2, 2009 2:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
I went back to Teddy for inspiration, obviously, just as most liberals keep hoping for a return of FDR's democratic party.
November 2, 2009 11:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not sure how to motivate most people wrt this stuff!
When roughly only 1/2 of population is eligible to vote in the first place... and only 1/2 of them actually do vote... and I'll be damned if 10% of them actually take the time to do any homework or commit any time to pondering the issues... while the others just vote according to whatever the background noise was on the TeeVee yesterday...
It's really difficult.
I just keep thinking of this passage:
"The America of my time line is a laboratory example of what can happen to democracies, what has eventually happened to all perfect democracies throughout all histories. A perfect democracy, a ‘warm body’ democracy in which every adult may vote and all votes count equally, has no internal feedback for self-correction. It depends solely on the wisdom and self-restraint of citizens… which is opposed by the folly and lack of self-restraint of other citizens. What is supposed to happen in a democracy is that each sovereign citizen will always vote in the public interest for the safety and welfare of all. But what does happen is that he votes his own self-interest as he sees it… which for the majority translates as ‘Bread and Circuses.’
‘Bread and Circuses’ is the cancer of democracy, the fatal disease for which there is no cure. Democracy often works beautifully at first. But once a state extends the franchise to every warm body, be he producer or parasite, that day marks the beginning of the end of the state. For when the plebs discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses without limit and that the productive members of the body politic cannot stop them, they will do so, until the state bleeds to death, or in its weakened condition the state succumbs to an invader—the barbarians enter Rome."
— Robert A. Heinlein (To Sail Beyond the Sunset)
November 2, 2009 4:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
I recommended this comment mainly because we need to be reminded that our leaders are a symptom, not a cause, of our politcal problems.
But not one mention of money in all this? Our opponents have, almost literally, ALL the money. Organization is fine, but organization without the funds to obtain, to use a random example, functioning transportation, is almost worthless. And the people who should be the natural grassroots suport for things like single-payer health care are usually too busy keeping a roof over their head and their children fed to devote unpaid hours to a cause that they have been conditioned to believe is futile.
When all you can offer is long hours with little or no pay in service of a Sisyphean struggle to overturn an entrenched, extremely well funded status quo, it's hard to get the best and brightest to sign on for the long haul.
November 2, 2009 11:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
Establish good organizational leadership and the money will follow. Obama's fund raising was unprecedented.
November 2, 2009 12:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
And boy, Ripper, he's had all of 11 months TO TURN AROUND THE BIGGEST CLUSTERFUCK IN GLOBAL HISTORY, HAD THE MOST HEELS-DUG-IN-CONGRESS EVER, and had to try to solve hundreds of problems at once, including the fact that the fucking congressmen won't even back him up on putting the Gitmo inmates in maximum security prisons in OUR GODDAMN COUNTRY. Yeah, sure, it's all his fault.
Goddamn, Ripper.
November 2, 2009 12:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think you must have been reading someone else's post before you wrote that comment.
November 2, 2009 1:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Just one observation with a couple of examples. I think we tend to thing that grass roots leadership is some sort of innate quality, one has it or one doesn't. It might be better to think of it as a learned quality, one which is task specific, and one that takes a very long time to learn well.
If we look at the leadership of the abolition movement, or, even more, the leadership of the woman's suffrage movement, we can ask ourselves how long it took for a Frederick Douglass or a Susan B. Anthony to educate themselves--to grow into the stature which gave them a national audience. It took most of their lives, and in the case of Anthony, her cause outlived her, and it was the generation she trained which saw the results of her labor.
We could say the same thing about the civil rights movement, the labor movement, the anti-war movement, name any of these where there were grass-roots leaders hanging off the low branches ready to be picked and put in front of their cadres. We have too short attention spans, methinks, and we're pretty ignorant of the pre-history of the movements we've watched succeed only after a long struggle to gain national attention.
One last example--Obama himself. He was trained, and trained by some of the best before he burst on the national political scene. He had the material of leadership, but the methodology, the technique? Thank Saul Alinsky and Alinsky's disciples for that.
What we need to do is conduct post-failure seminars, not retire to corners to lick wounds. Wounds taste bleh anyhow. But a serious look, in detail, at what went wrong might must make sure that there's a more reliable bus the next time.
November 2, 2009 12:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks, mike. Good points. As far as sthe bus goes, everyone has been writing about getting a better bus, but my intent was to illustrate the complete failure of leadership on that bus, not just by one clerical captain, but by the entire cadre of leaders on the scene. They were so clueless that the Catholic priest actually blurted out "Shut the fuck up!" I kid you not.
November 2, 2009 1:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
With a little luck at the debriefing the Mother Superior will wash his mouth out with soap.
November 2, 2009 8:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
The left is divided between progressive liberals, many of whom want pragmatic, real-world programs to address today's issues, and, dragging everything into irrelevance, the hard, Marxist left bent on making everything worse, to spark yet another faulty revolution that will upend the exploitative class stucture blahblahblah... No one listens to or resprects that hopefully diminishing side. Right now, there is the right and the soft-right, the moderate middle-of-the-road. There are no political alternatives, because the left has rendered itself irrelelvant. Until it sheds the ideological dinosaurs, it will remain so.
November 2, 2009 1:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree, SFK, and true to form, the ideological dinosaurs I've met personally all seem to have the biggest teeth and the smallest brains. They are the ones who will stop a discussion by remarking that a legitimate question is a distraction from the action.
November 2, 2009 1:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Biggest teeth and the smallest brains" is about the best description of ideological tactics I have ever heard. The blog was worth it for that line alone.
November 3, 2009 8:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think there's been much of the hard Marxist left around for at least 20 years. Unfortunately, what we have instead are the focused grouped, test marketed, non-ideological, in it for the power and glory centrists -- many who claim to be progressive if they are in a state or district where that is expedient. If it's not expedient, they are "moderates". They don't really care because they don't believe in anything but their own election anyway.
At least the old Marxists knew there was and is a class struggle. But today, only one class has political parties to represent it.
The right is ruthlessly ideological and agenda driven. You can't defeat the if you pretend no such ideology or agenda exists.
November 2, 2009 2:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think I can see why the left can't get it's house in order. One, we are 9 months into a Democratic government that we all put enormous amount of energy to get there. I think we are all still holding our collective breath as to what is going to get done and not get done as per what was promised to us. I don't think people realize the job isn't finished despite our feeling of burnout. And, then there are many of us who are deeply disappointed with the Democratic party establishment and just tired out about the whole process.
While it is obvious that the left lacks discipline and organization as the author mentioned, I think this country hasn't reached it's highest pain level yet. We may be feeling angry, but that anger quickly becomes internalized and out of that frustration we just want nothing to do with the political process. Not the right response I realize, but it is what is going on and what I'm seeing.
Perhaps the best we can do right now is act locally and vote in progressive left politicians for local positions. And, building a true grassroots movement from there.
Let's face it both parties are in it for themselves and they will endorse candidates from the opposite party if a candidate running in their party isn't established enough. This is happening in So. Cal right now. The Democratic party in a school board election is endorsing a conservative Republican instead of their own party member who is a Progressive. And, this is in a liberal district. It makes no sense.
November 2, 2009 3:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, every time I rad about a Washington scandal involving a hooker, I wonder how the hooker got elected in the first place.
November 2, 2009 3:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Quite frankly, in your example you're giving hookers a bad name. Shame on you.
November 2, 2009 3:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
As Dylan so aptly put it, it's difficult to be angry when your belly is full. The left unfortunately can not get motivated unless it's collective rear ends are on the line.
The main motivating power behind the Anti War rallies of the 1960s and 70s was the all to real possibility of getting ones head blown off in South East Asia.
When that situation came to an end the motivation did as well.
The left in this country is still pretty much fat and happy and has no real reason to get righteously indignant about much except to write stuff on the Internet. Me included.
C
November 2, 2009 3:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
This goes beyond a left/right issue. It's a class issue. It's not just the left that isn't in enough pain, but the entire country. No movement is going to succeed in this country without the middle class being involved to protect its own self interest. The motivating power behind the Anti-War rallies in the 60's and 70's were going on because it directly effected the lives of middle class men and boys. And, the motivating movement behind Ronald Reagan's presidency was the middle class. To get a real ground swell movement when the other shoe drops is to make sure the left has their voice in mainstream media for the middle class to hear. And, it cannot just be in those states who are liberal to begin with. Although protests in D.C help, they are not the totality or even 1% of getting the message out. The left needs its voice loudly heard on all media outlets including billboards, t-shirts, pamphlets and street level visuals. This is the real grass roots area. It's not enough for the right message to get out but the message has to hit home on a personal level with people in all communities enough to call and write their congress people and Senators.
November 2, 2009 3:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Absolutely, it is a class issue and it's always in the interest of the ruling class to use all kinds of trickery to obscure what should be obvious. Patriotism is one way they do it. Blaming the victims is another. Redirecting anger at minority groups is another. By the time the heat is high enough for people to really feel it, their power to do anything about it has been greatly diminished.
November 2, 2009 4:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ding!
November 2, 2009 4:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
Or perhaps tired from working 7 days per week to keep up in a country that has gone YOYO.
November 2, 2009 6:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think the problem is the collapse of labor unions and the manufacturing sector. They did the yeoman's work on activism. Where would Nader's consumer agenda have gotten without union support and testimony on the assembly lines?
The Reagan and elder Bush administration dealt several hard blows to labor unions, but the gutting occurred during the Clinton years. Our modern economic philosophy is built on financial parlor tricks. It's insular... a completely insular culture built on abstractions. The next big money-generating equation.
So, it is a combination. The formal power structure of the unions has been replaced by an informal power structure of grassroots organizations that lack the reputation and collectivism of the unions. Further, we don't have the manufacturing sector, so our old rust belt allies have become increasingly disaffected and prone to right wing tropes. This creates a lack of credible grassroots stewardship on one side and a media-fueled right wing populism on the other.
And Quinn, I think the slam on the 30-44 age demographic is misplaced. Most of us were either in College, just entering the workforce, or secure in a new labor environment built on technological innovation. Then came Bush and 9/11. I had to hold multiple temp jobs just to pay my student loans.
Mine is the first generation where retirement and job security became dirty words. The responsibility for building a nest egg became entirely ours and founded on shoving a portion of our earned income into Wall Street. I also know that I busted my ass on behalf of Al Gore. I volunteered hundreds of hours and donated money I couldn't afford because Bush terrified me and I respected Gore's ecological credentials. The 2000 election was a wound I have yet to heal from.
So it may make you feel a little better looking down on my generation. But Bush and 9/11 didn't land on your doorstep when you were stepping out into the workforce... a workforce that was milked by the Boomers for all it was worth.
If my generation is the most disappointed in Obama, it could be because he is in the best position to enact something like EFCA which could reinvigorate the labor movement. Instead, he seems to be co-opting what grassroots we have into his trademark.
(And to Wendy Davis, I am sorry if my writing is often too detached and abstract. I will try harder to be a little more anglic and a little less latin.)
November 2, 2009 3:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Quinn:
I reread your post, and I do agree that the voices of the 30-44 group are pretty retarded lately. I stand corrected. I have to remember that some of these idiots are actually my age...
There is that theme that "Obama was hopey-changey and I feel betrayed!!! WAAAAAHHH!" that sounds more infantile than reasoned. And that trumpet is coming from my age demographic.
Screw them.
November 2, 2009 3:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
No offense intended, Z - I was just slapping back at certain voices here who just use the generational thing to piss all over large other groups of people. I think there are much more useful discussions of generations and micro-slices and what shapes people, but the big generational labels tend to smear more than they illumine. In my case, I had sibs at 2 year intervals older and younger than myself, which gives an interesting window into their worlds - but which also allows early and late entry. I also happened to wander between workforce, college and travel for a good 10-12 years before stepping on the career gas, and those years straddled the conventional Boomer/Gen X lines, so I've never felt like a child of the 60's, but at the same time, preppies, slackers, B.Comms and lots of other slices of life felt foreign. I'm quite interested in how people were affected by very particular events which - hitting them at particular ages - are seared in. 9/11 and Gore/Bush added almost nothing new to me, and in many ways simply felt like logical extensions of earlier events, which hit me much deeper. e.g. That brutal early 80's recession which left me homeless and hungry... or the swing to the Right under Ronnie/Maggie/co., etc.
So, truth is, while I think there ARE some wider differences amongst members of the post-WW2 generations (1963-70 was not 1993-2000), I tend to focus on the larger differences between all of us and the pre-War generations, and then the micro-slice difference between those who experienced certain key events at ages when they were most open.
November 2, 2009 7:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Zipper, I agree that a large part of this is the dismantling of the union workforce and the resulting over-reliance on a system of grassroots organizations in which few people have a vested economic interest. I have to disagree with artgurrl that the middle class lost its motivation after Vietnam. As flower's post recently pointed out, the middle class is suffering (has been) horribly. The solutions and involvement offered by the Right would not be so appealing to these folks if the Left had its shit together.
November 2, 2009 4:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
The solutions and involvement offered by the Right would not be so appealing to these folks if the Left had its shit together.
Bingo. The left should have some of the blame for the tea partiers.
Someone asked Sherrod Brown why working class folks in SE Ohio were voting for Republicans. His answer: "Because the Democrats stopped talking to them." There's your problem right there.
November 2, 2009 4:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
The middle class is the labor and union workforce along with middle class white collar workforce. Many in the labor movement voted for Ronald Reagan in the 1980 election. They were completely duped. This was the beginning of the dismantling of the middle class and this is where much of the middle class lost its motivation. I didn't say that the middle class lost its motivation after the Vietnam war. That happened much later with Reagan and the basic dismantling of labor's voice starting with Reagan and proceeding with Bush, Clinton and Bush Jr. You're right, I agree with you in that "The solutions and involvement offered by the Right would not be so appealing to these folks if the Left had its shit together." But it is the right that has had the most disciplined message until recently. Again, duping the middle class into thinking the monied Wall Street class and the GOP had their best interests in mind.
November 2, 2009 4:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
I can agree with all this. Thanks for correcting me, artgurrl.
November 2, 2009 5:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bless you my son; I really and truly was able to read the above you wrote--and grasp it. Thank you so much. That you personalized the theory and the history made a huge difference.
Sometimes I would feel as I read your writing that you had let folks burn out a bit on comments, then parachute in to deliver the knock-out, definitive punches. This was better.
November 2, 2009 4:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Talking to Zipper, right? It's hard for me to keep these thread parts lined up vertically.
November 2, 2009 5:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, the comments aren't always posted where they are supposed to go; what's up with that? And sooooooooo much spam again lately.
November 2, 2009 5:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
One thing you have to consider especially if you talk about unions is that those who worked in the auto and steel and coal etc. - blue collar - industries could back each others concerns because they could easily relate to each others concerns. Job and social and economic wise.
The educated, professional and semi-professionals on the left - not so much. Even when it come to a subject that we agree upon, we come to it from very different places. This makes getting a consensus a lot more difficult.
C
November 2, 2009 6:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks, all, for a wonderful discussion!
November 3, 2009 12:23 AM | Reply | Permalink