As "Morning Joe" misses the point on torture
To review, yesterday, the Levin report revealed some startling things, none more startling than this:
The Bush administration applied relentless pressure on interrogators to use harsh methods on detainees in part to find evidence of cooperation between al Qaida and the late Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein's regime, according to a former senior U.S. intelligence official and a former Army psychiatrist.Such information would've provided a foundation for one of former President George W. Bush's main arguments for invading Iraq in 2003. In fact, no evidence has ever been found of operational ties between Osama bin Laden's terrorist network and Saddam's regime.
The use of abusive interrogation -- widely considered torture -- as part of Bush's quest for a rationale to invade Iraq came to light as the Senate issued a major report tracing the origin of the abuses and President Barack Obama opened the door to prosecuting former U.S. officials for approving them.
In other words, the push from Cheney, Rumsfeld, and even Condi Rice, was not about preventing an imminent attack, or, as Joe Scarborough keeps insisting, a matter of political differences between the old and new administrations. The torture programs devised by Rumsfeld, largely, via reverse-engineering the SERE program was being used in much the same way the Maoist Chinese used it against our soldiers during the Korean War: to produce false confessions that would justify an invasion of Iraq that President Bush was at the time claiming he wasn't even considering... More from McClatchy:
"Cheney's and Rumsfeld's people were told repeatedly, by CIA . . . and by others, that there wasn't any reliable intelligence that pointed to operational ties between bin Laden and Saddam, and that no such ties were likely because the two were fundamentally enemies, not allies."
Senior administration officials, however, "blew that off and kept insisting that we'd overlooked something, that the interrogators weren't pushing hard enough, that there had to be something more we could do to get that information," he said.
A former U.S. Army psychiatrist, Maj. Charles Burney, told Army investigators in 2006 that interrogators at the Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, detention facility were under "pressure" to produce evidence of ties between al Qaida and Iraq.
"While we were there a large part of the time we were focused on trying to establish a link between al Qaida and Iraq and we were not successful in establishing a link between al Qaida and Iraq," Burney told staff of the Army Inspector General. "The more frustrated people got in not being able to establish that link . . . there was more and more pressure to resort to measures that might produce more immediate results."
This is damning new information, and you'd think it would have made it into the discussion this morning. Instead, Chuck, Joe and company ignored this point altogether, and argued the torture question as if the Levin report didn't even exist. In the end, it hardly matters what the Morning Joe cast chats about -- but the fact that the show takes place on the same network that covered the Iraq-torture connection extensively just last night, is strange, to say the least.
A fundamental shift has occurred in this debate. If torture was used, not to avert an imminent attack (the "ticking time bomb" scenario still being sold by Republicans to justify the unthinkable) but rather to gin up false evidence to justify an illegal attack on a country that posed no threat to us, essentially further politicizing 9/11, and trashing everything America stands for, all in the quest to fulfill the neocon dream of Iraq conquest, then there's no "looking forward." What we have, it seems to me, is a criminal conspiracy to lie, distort, and even torture us into war.
Somebody please brief the MSNBC morning crew.
















Like a moth drawn by the candlelight, I too watched some of the Morning Joe this morning. I was about to write my own post I was so incensed.
They were clearly following Joe's meme of the day that the "Left" is trying to criminalize differences in political opinion.
What a loaded Crock of BullS#*t!!
What they do not get is that since the new administration came to power, the scales are starting to fall from the eyes of the sleeping dinosaur: the mainstream of our populace. The Levin Report may very well be a turning point.
The Bushies probably could have milked their phony excuses for torture a good while longer if the timeline of events did not establish the real reason for the torture: the missing Saddam/Al Queada connection.
Though he is young enough to have not lived it, Chuck Todd should be educated enough to know about the lack of morality and denigration of the rule of law during the Nixon years and Iran/Contra affair.
Joe Scarborough does not have any excuse.
The Bush Administration operated on the premise of fear and control. The pulled a con by trying to manipulate the actual meaning of the rule of law as it pertains to torturing both non-citizens and citizens.
The founding fathers founded our great system to avoid a government/dynasty/ tyranny based upon fear and control of the populace.
WE must resist this.
April 23, 2009 11:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
When all is said and done, FOX holds Ollie North up as a hero and repeatedly relies on G. Gordon Liddy for commentary, not to mention Karl Rove. The nation has its laws and he Right has it'
s agenda which operates outside the laws, self-justified and perpetuated shamelessly because they have no respect for the laws that do not suit them.
April 23, 2009 3:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
Chuck did say more than once you really need to read all the memo's & the Levin report so you know what your talking about. Joe, came back with his bottom line, which had noting to do with anything, he stated it depends on what IS torture, as if that hadn't been decided. This guy is embarrasing just like Mika's dad said. Unbelievable!
April 23, 2009 11:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
So Joe said it depends on what the definition of IS IS? hmmmm? Where did we hear that before today? Did it work the last time? maybe we could use the WWII records of crimes the Japanese were accused of performing for which they received the death penalty? Could we start there when we search for the definition of what IS IS related to torture?
April 23, 2009 3:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
When I was younger and ignorant of politics and world news, I used to think anchors like Joe were so smart. They have a show, they must know what they are talking about, right?
Having followed politics for some time now and having read websites like TPM, I just sit there astonished at their stupidity. What's more infuriating is that I know some of them choose not to share the whole story.
April 23, 2009 12:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm with VivaAmerica! there. For me, it used to he that "on the news" = "credible". What a difference the Internets make!
April 23, 2009 1:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
It would be great to go back and listen to those old guys, Cronkite and others. Maybe there reporting was better? Maybe I was a simply an ignorant child, but some comparison could be useul and revealing as to what level of propaganda we are exposed to by the multi-national corporate media.
April 23, 2009 3:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good work, Joy-Ann. For us watching Morning Jerk and myna bird Mika is real torture. I wish MSNBC would wake up and smell the coffee.
April 23, 2009 1:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good post. I think there has long been evidence of this, but scattered and in some cases, from military lawyers, medical and other personnel, suppressed.
Levin’s report, in part, shows that the motivation for torture was not about furthering national security but was corrupt. That official revelation, along with water boarding being confirmed as a torture practice and concrete proof that the administration ordered water boarding, that a criminal case must go forward.
April 23, 2009 1:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Joy-Ann, this is a great post, and connects the dots between the administration knowing that torture-obtained evidence would be incorrect, and pushing for it anyway.
It is possible that the Administration moved forward with torture in the belief that the "Iraq Connection" was so secret that it would only be revealed through torture. It is also possible that they moved forward with torture knowing that the information would be false but would provide a cover of justification for the attack on Iraq.
You are correct that perhaps the best place to figure this out might be in a court of law.
April 23, 2009 3:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Joe Scarborough is a disgrace to the MSNBC division. He's pure Fox Network material whom I guess represents balance by being extremely right-wing prone & a total sell-out to Bush policies & conservative ideology. He talks over all dissent & defers quickly to his boy, Pat Buchanan, when cornered. Pat's even worse. I had the show on DVR for a while but can no longer stomach the predictable smirk or indefensible stance of Joe. I cancelled the show!
Mika would do well to dump him & go it alone. She continuously holds back her disdain & only allows him to see himself as right anyway. Another solid political minority man, Joe Scarborough.
April 23, 2009 4:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
In a way it is appalling that the crap on TV needs to be debunked. But it seems to be necessary. That given, it's good to point out the failings of powerful pundits and "hosts" et al.
"If torture was used, not to avert an imminent attack (the "ticking time bomb" scenario still being sold by Republicans to justify the unthinkable) but rather to gin up false evidence"
Since you posit a counterfactual, the rest is irrelevant; you're attacking a strawman here. There is no basis in fact to support "gin up false evidence" in the sense of "false confessions". A more reasonable, and supportable, hypothesis is that they were looking too hard for true evidence to justify a preconceived notion that there was a significant connection between AQ and Saddam. I'm not saying that no false evidence was used to sell the war.
Is Laurie Mylroie the basic cause of the invasion of Iraq?
April 23, 2009 4:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Full court press by every venue from the right suggests to me how totally terrified these folks are!
We press ahead. We keep our eye on the ball. We don't let them side-track us to their arguments. We stick to ours!
Thanks for the post. Very well done!
April 23, 2009 6:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Right on, TheraP !!
April 24, 2009 11:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
Cheers all. The funny thing is, Scarborough keeps insisting that his opinions are down the middle, and that fellow Republicans hate on him because he "refuses to be a shill." Go figure...
April 24, 2009 6:55 PM | Reply | Permalink