I've come to the conclusion that it's not "values" that drive these discussions today, but cold political calculations.

1. Prosecutions will turn CIA into the next Wall Street and it may alienate rank-and-file CIA at the time when we are still supposedly fighting terrorism. The result - Obama is triangulating, flip-flopping and some on the yes-men on the left are suddenly OK with selective application of laws (i.e. only to the top brass)

2. Prosecutions will result in revelations that will damage not only Republicans and Bushies but also Democrats (i.e. Pelosi, who was on intelligence committee). Again - the Congress "leadership" is making a deal with their conscience.

3. Prosecutions will result in more partisan acrimony and will be a setback to Obama's grand illusions about health-care and green revolution.

For all their talk about high moral road, the leftists are simply angling for a political calculation with the least possible damage. They are no better than republicans who are just covering their backsides. In fact, because of their hysterical screaming about Iraq and torture during the elections and their posturing right now - they might be even worse, at least Cheney has been consistent to the end.

Just like the Bushies, these Democrats are bunch of lying cynical manipulators led by a flip-flopper president. That's all.

Many moderates among the chattering classes are now arguing for restraint in prosecuting those in the last administration who authorized or participated in the torture of detainees.

Excusing torture is an immoderate position. Period.

What message are we sending our collective conscience?

"You are useless, for even when you are in shock, you're being unreasonable."

Is that what we want to say? Forget future presidents or future crimes. To not investigate torture is to tell the human conscience it serves no purpose.

Nice demo of the necessity of the strawman (and other fallacies).

There's smoke. No question. But is there fire or just people blowing smoke? That calls for investigation, not prosecution much less conviction before trial.

It doesn't look like vaudeville when done seriously. Spice it up if you're kidding around. Or, if you're serious, try to get it right and keep it as real as possible.

Some who feel Religion has no place on TPM have criticized me.
This torture debate gives me an opportunity to give an example of the role Religious values can have on complex issues.

Think of a compass. We use it to find direction.
What if that compass was broken? The same could be said of the moral compass, being broken.
Neglected or ignored, it is of no use if not followed.

Our nation has been seduced. We have lost our moral compass in favor of listening, To the man speaking perverse things, 13 from those leaving the paths of uprightness to walk in the ways of darkness, 14 from those who are rejoicing in doing bad, who are joyful in the perverse things of badness; 15 those whose paths are crooked and who are devious in their general course

(Proverbs 1:10-2:22) 10 My son, if sinners try to seduce you, do not consent. 11 If they keep saying: “Do go with us. Do let us lie in ambush for blood. Do let us lie in concealment for the innocent men without any cause. …15 my son, do not go in the way with them. Hold back your foot from their roadway. 16 For their feet are those that run to sheer badness, and they keep hastening to shed blood. ………. 20 True wisdom itself keeps crying aloud in the very street. In the public squares it keeps giving forth its voice.
21 At the upper end of the noisy streets it calls out. At the entrances of the gates into the city it says its own sayings:

22 “How long will YOU inexperienced ones keep loving inexperience, ….and [how long] will YOU stupid ones keep hating knowledge? 23 Turn back at my reproof. …… 24 Because I have called out but YOU keep refusing, I have stretched out my hand but there is no one paying attention, 25 and YOU keep neglecting all my counsel, and my reproof YOU have not accepted, 26 I also, for my part, shall laugh at YOUR own disaster, I shall mock when what YOU dread comes, 27 when what YOU dread comes just like a storm, and YOUR own disaster gets here just like a storm wind, when distress and hard times come upon YOU.

28 At that time they will keep calling me, but I shall not answer; they will keep looking for me, but they will not find me, 29 for the reason that they hated knowledge, …….. 30 They did not consent to my counsel; they disrespected all my reproof. 31 So they will eat from the fruitage of their way,

and they will be glutted with their own counsels. ………..” 2 My son, if you will receive my sayings and treasure up my own commandments with yourself, 2 so as to pay attention to wisdom with your ear, that you may incline your heart to discernment; 3 if, moreover, you call out for understanding itself and you give forth your voice for discernment itself, ……… 9 In that case you will understand righteousness and judgment and uprightness,
the entire course of what is good.

10 When wisdom enters into your heart and knowledge itself becomes pleasant to your very soul, 11 thinking ability itself will keep guard over you, discernment itself will safeguard you, 12 to deliver you from the bad way, from the man speaking perverse things,

Our leaders and those who support them have replaced the best Wisdom and knowledge, for their own compromised, adulterated, twisted and failed ideas. That is why some will torture, and start wars based on lies and then leave it open for debate or compromise. The only thing compromised was our conscience, and a watered down application of the LAW of righteous principles. Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honor thy father and thy mother; and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Is it necessary to say THOU SHALT NOT TORTURE?
Have the people lost or forgotten the knowledge and wisdom, the principles of the law? Is it no longer taught or EXPECTED OR REQUIRED?

WHO CAN STAND UP TO THE LEADERS OF THE REBELLION?
When the majority of the people have found they too, don’t like the laws and they too are a part of the rebellion, picking and choosing which laws to observe? Having no moral authority left to invoke, or check the Dark side.

So we are left with the mess we are in. Those loyal to a moral conscience, are now the minority. Only to be ridiculed.

Is it all about the degree or the level of the violation? We will accept this or that, but Not that, or will we as a Nation, strive to perfect our conduct, requiring all to live by the principles of the law, so the Nation as a whole benefits? Willful Ignorance is not a valid excuse.

The irony here is that many of the people who want to turn a blind eye to the torture issue are those who claim to be religious and moral. I have yet to hear rush, or sean or sarah or rick warren or james dobson or pat buchanan or michelle bachman or ANY of the religious right call for bush et al to be prosecuted. Or ANYONE to be prosecuted. Did I just miss that?

What we have done is so reprehensible that I understand how hard it is to own up to it. Those in our government, Republicans and Democrats alike, who knew about this, must be having a hard time sleeping at night. Not because of the torture occurring, but because they are beginning to understand that they ALLOWED this, and it is possible they will have to answer for it.

I don't care if you were one of those who was screaming and yelling the whole time against this, or if you were one who just ignored it. This was done in OUR name. AMERICA did this. The collective WE is shamed by this.

To be honest, I'm not sure why the rest of the world isn't screaming about it. The only thing I can think of is that they want us to do it, so they can, too...

I commented a few days ago that the whole thing just makes me sad. That sadness is giving way to anger. I don't know if a mad Stilli is as scary as a mad Bwak, but I know its not a good thing...

Posted by Bwakfat “Morality drives Religion. It's not the other way around. Don't cram yours down peoples throats. Speak simply and from the heart in words that appeal to all.

Just as I wrote and of course your response is characteristic of those who reject the superior wisdom “Don’t cram”

It used to be, ones adherence to faith promoted morality. That was before some of our neighbor citizens, mocked the VALUABLE INSTRUCTIONS in the ways of GOOD moral conduct. Some rejected the Idea that good moral values were essential to a healthy society, they no longer wanted it "Crammed down their throats."

Those verses I quoted did come from the heart. And they were written by No less than a King whose Wisdom was world-renowned. Solomon recognized, A Nation was dependant upon all it’s citizens being Instructed and it was paramount, the Laws of Morality had to be equally recognized by both servant and those in high places.

Members of the Bush Administration felt it didn’t need to answer to a higher source. In it’s twisted mind, IT was the higher source, Rejecting the thought that it was answerable for it’s conduct, just as I expect you are of the same attitude?

What? You feel you’re qualified to determine what is of value, you alone and maybe a few others because it's wats inside you? You and others like Dick Cheney don’t’ need no stinking laws governing GOOD moral conduct?

Do you ever wonder why the Social fabric in the World has deteriorated? Your answer?
Let me give you a clue. Having no sense of the source of INSTRUCTION of GOOD moral values, in contrast to whatever.

(Ephesians 4:17-19) 17 .... that YOU no longer go on walking just as the nations also walk in the unprofitableness of their minds, 18 while they are in darkness mentally, and alienated from the life that belongs to God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the insensibility of their hearts. 19 Having come to be past all moral sense, they gave themselves over to loose conduct to work uncleanness of every sort with greediness.

Darkness mentally, loose conduct, insensibility, unprofitableness, ignorance. Surely defines a World I see around me. How about you? Or are you blind to the reality.

You totally missed the point of what the writer wrote because I am of the opinion you and others think YOU don’t need INSTRUCTIONS

Then another suggests that because some claim to be Christians, makes one a Christian.

Boy, I wouldn’t brag about being too bright. Do I have to explain more; Saying and doing are two different things. Or did you perceive that they were not adhering to the standards they teach? Where did you learn such things?

It’s more likely YOU personally feel you should be exempt from observing Good moral conduct, but Cheney should not be exempt. Hypocrite!