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John Choon Yoo: Recent Orange County Register Interview


John Choon Yoo is presently a distinguished visiting professor at Chapman University School of Law, located in Orange County, California. The Orange County Register recently published an interview with him:

Eugene W. Fields, "Ex-Bush lawyer talks about torture memos", The Orange County Register, March 3, 2009

I'll cut to the chase here with the money quote:

"Now that I'm not in the government, part of my role, because I have a certain amount of expertise, is to try to keep the government honest." - John Choon Yoo
Just what did Yoo consider his role to be when he was in the government?

There were other Yooliganisms worthy of note. When asked why he took a one semester leave of absence from the UC Berkeley Boalt Hall School of Law to be a visiting professor at the respected, but still 3rd tier Chapman University School of Law, Yoo provided astounding evidence of his lack of basic California geographical knowledge:

I had never lived in L.A., and I don't know much about the southern half of the state, so I thought this would be a good opportunity to kind of learn about it. I'm so ignorant; I didn't realize that Orange County and L.A. are very different places. It was a change of pace and a different environment.
Yoo then offered up the standard right-wing boiler plate "left-coast of America" UC Berkeley derogation:
Berkeley is sort of a magnet for hippies, protesters and left-wing activists.
Yeah, it's a well-known fact that the LSAT and other rigorous admission standards have a liberal bias...

Finally, I'd like to note that I learned about this interview in a blog post by the Conservative law Professor at The George Washington University Law School, Orin Kerr in a post at The Volokh Conspiracy, as it proves that there is still hope for American Conservatism if it can manage to purge itself of the New Right and Neoconservative poseurs who have infected it.


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Yoo, for those who may not know it, occupied a place in the Office of Legal Counsel, under bushco. There, they sought to undermine the Constitution, in order to facilitate a police state here in the US of A. Yoo was one of the prime movers, along with Bybee, of the famous torture memos and other memos, allowing for torture, redition, spying on Americans, allowing for the military to operate within the United States (against us! in intelligence, but it could have been to suppress us) etc.

Thank you, PCA, for drawing attention to a man I consider to be unAmerican and anti-Constitution. Someone who deserves to be disbarred, investigated, and prosecuted.

It is my suspicion he realizes that his legal expertise is not up to teaching at a first rate law school, given the potential for investigation of his role in the infamous torture memos.

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welcome TheraP, but don't forget that Professor Kerr deserves note too. I have no fondness for the liberal/conservative dichotomy, believing the terms have been distorted beyond any reasonable meaning or utility, and become just words used to maintain the status quo with polarised polemics. I do however like to note The Friends of Liberty, and Orin Kerr has shown himself to be one.

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There are patriots among liberals, conservatives, and centrists. I have enormous respect for people who can lay out a case based upon principle. What galls me is when people use arguments that the end justifies the means. Ends may even be laudable, but they can never justify evil means. I'm sure that for principled conservatives, the torture memos must be abhorrent to the nth degree. Thanks for that reminder.

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Let me add a second response. I too find terminology of many types, not just liberal versus conservative to be very confining. It's much easier, I think, to converse and express one's ideas. It's very difficult to assume things from labels or to label making assumptions. We all take various positions in various areas of our lives. Very few people can be fitted into labels.

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Just make the law up as you go along. Gee Mr. Vice President, exactly what conclusions do you have in mind.

You realize that you can find support for anything you wish in some Federal District Court over the last century. I would be happy to go even farther back than that. Justice Holmes always seemed to get in the way.

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Yoo is as clueless of the demographics of Boalt and UCB as he is in basic California geography; and by extension, his cluelessness of the Law; UCB has always been a "research" school and thus much more conservative than a "teaching" school; I mean, my God! Edward Teller would show up at the same coffee shop I frequent; UCB has a holocaust denier and an intelligence design/ creationist professors teaching post- graduates.

John Yoo fit in perfectly here; after all, he's correct in a way; alot of crackpot intellectuals reside in and/or teach at Berkeley.

Of course, it should be repeated, I reside in Berkeley as well!

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I would have guessed that Justice. Edward Teller, I have not heard that name for a long time.

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"Edward Teller, I have not heard that name for a long time."

Thank goodness!

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Dead and gone...

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This whole "cultural war" myth that has been perpetrated by the right for over 3 decades needs to be exposed for the deception that it is, and for the damage it has caused to The Nation. Showtime has a very good special this month about the incarceration of Tommy Chong, that provides a few insights into what it has cost us in terms of personal liberty. If you haven't seen it, try to schedule it for a view. It's worth the time.

At the foundation of this long spun myth of Berkeley's Marxist leanings lays a contradiction that should cause all REAL Conservatives pause, and then realise its fatuity: The Free Speech Movement. No Marxist ever truly believes in free speech, as it imperils the superiority of the state over the individual. The 60's cannot properly be mapped onto the political bipolar model. Much of the 60s were about individual liberty, and is this not what conservatism claims sits at its very philosophical core?

Yoo suffers from the same persecution complex as does much of contemporary conservatism. They claim victimisation in the free marketplace of ideas, because they are unable to profit from it. They whine after getting trounced on the home field, playing their game, by their rules, claiming they have been somehow cheated.

It is Berkeley's continuing belief in the righteousness of free speech that provisions Yoo with his tenured professorship there. This tenured professorship also gives him a much higher soapbox as a pedestal to stand upon, and freely state his opinions, yet even given this great advantage, he is still being beaten badly. This has not caused him to rethink his despicable pro-torture arguments, to comprehend that they are antithetical to the Dreamtime America. Instead he believes he loses in the free marketplace of ideas, due to this fantasy of Berkeley's lefty beingness.

Oh BooYoo, he's nothing but a big baby.

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Nice Rant Pseudo. Really nice!!! Since when did the ACLU ever back away from a fight on a theoretical basis?

We must believe that the truth will out!!!

Otherwise there is no hope. None at all.

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Wimps...

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"The 60's cannot properly be mapped onto the political bipolar model. Much of the 60s were about individual liberty, and is this not what conservatism claims sits at its very philosophical core?"

I've often pondered this dichotomy, from the perspective of one who more closely identifies with the hippies than the Republican/Libertarians.

How does a Libertarian support a "strong defense?" (Leastwise to the extent that the military/industrial complex is really the only game left in town?)

How does a Libertarian support military interventions of the kind we have engaged in VietNam, Iraq, and elsewhere?

How does a Libertarian find anything in common with the likes of Dick Cheney to recommend him to a position of anything beyond "down and out for the count?"

How does a Libertarian support marijuana laws, or gov't intrusions into the lives of women, GLBT's and others?

It is difficult to comprehend how any true "Libertarian" could find a home in the Republican Party. Most I have met are self-reporting "Libertarians" only because they don't believe in the government's authority to tax its citizens. They are therefore so easily discredited, if for no ther reason than they use government subsidized schools to even develop such thought, and have used gov't subsidized roadways, etc., to even get to whatever venue from which they make such ridiculous arguments.

Nevertheless, I doubt I will see many of the GOP/Libertarians showing up at the "Room of Our Own" Bookstore in Madison anytime soon!

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I'm glad that you chose to capitalise the "L" in your comment's usage of libertarian. I consider myself to be libertarian, yet at the same time consider the Libertarian Party to be an obscene parody of libertarianism. The LP's leadership has shown itself over the last eight years to care little of liberty, and much about their personal affection for property (more on property later, as my view is non-standard from most American libertarians). The LP's Platform was gutted and diluted several years ago, yet still takes a much stronger position about the rights of gays than either of the two mainstream parties. Tell me please, just which President came up with the asinine policy of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" for the US Military?

From The Current Libertarian Party Platform:

1.2: Personal Privacy
We support the protections provided by the Fourth Amendment to be secure in our persons, homes, and property. Only actions that infringe on the rights of others can properly be termed crimes. We favor the repeal of all laws creating "crimes" without victims, such as the use of drugs for medicinal or recreational purposes.
1.3: Personal Relationships
Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the rights of individuals by government, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption, immigration or military service laws. Consenting adults should be free to choose their own sexual practices and personal relationships. Government does not have the authority to define, license or restrict personal relationships.
1.4: Abortion
Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.
1.5: Crime and Justice
Government exists to protect the rights of every individual including life, liberty and property. Criminal laws should be limited to violation of the rights of others through force or fraud, or deliberate actions that place others involuntarily at significant risk of harm. Individuals retain the right to voluntarily assume risk of harm to themselves. We support restitution of the victim to the fullest degree possible at the expense of the criminal or the negligent wrongdoer. We oppose reduction of constitutional safeguards of the rights of the criminally accused. The rights of due process, a speedy trial, legal counsel, trial by jury, and the legal presumption of innocence until proven guilty, must not be denied. We assert the common-law right of juries to judge not only the facts but also the justice of the law.

Anyone who hedges on any of the above platform planks cannot be an (L/l)ibertarian. The LP's leadership and many of its current members attempt to grossly distort the natural individual liberties with arguments of "States' Rights", pretending that an individual state's theft of natural liberty is somehow a different sort of theft, than is the Federal Government's theft of natural liberty. Those who take this position often claim they want to return to the Original Constitution's intent, which is another deception, as the Fourteenth Amendment supersedes the original text, and cannot just simply be hurdled over, because thinking about two guys playing stable the pony in the back forty corral, cause troubling rumblings in the dark repressed recesses of their subconscious. The LP has been polluted by fainéant Republicans who stood idly by while their party became corrupted, and now flee from its horror with loud denunciations, attempting to absolve themselves of their own personal responsibility for its decline. They have elevated all private property ownership absurdly to the place of natural liberty, yet liberty is far more than bellying up to an all you can eat buffet of avarice and greed. I am still a registered member of the LP, but have been disenfranchised; marginalised from it by these faux-liberty-bois. They have categorised myself, and others within the Party who believe in real liberty, with what they believe to be the denigrating label of "Anarchist Wing of The LP". These clowns still remain cluelessly amazed after discovering most of those they catergorised as such, mirthfully embraced the label. What kind of American does not feel the strings of anarchism tugging at their very soul?
I heartily accept the motto, "That government is best which governs least"; and I should like to see it acted up to more rapidly and systematically. Carried out, it finally amounts to this, which also I believe--"That government is best which governs not at all"; and when men are prepared for it, that will be the kind of government which they will have. Government is at best but an expedient; but most governments are usually, and all governments are sometimes, inexpedient.

Henry David Thoreau, "On the Duty of Civil Disobedience"

The assertions that a proper state is a weak, anemic state, and that all private property ownership is a first tier right, posits a paradox of failure. Natural Rights to private property ownership extend only out as far as an individual "occupies" said property. All other forms of private property ownership are gifts of a robust state, and that includes all forms of absentee ownership, legacies, and intellectual property. Just how the hell do they expect to continue possessing these state-granted complex forms of property ownership in the absence of a vigorous state power without initiating force against others better situated to assert their natural rights to its ownership?

Welcome to the libertarian-left...

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Thank you for that wonderful comment, PCA. I think I have libertarian leanings then. If not outright libertarian views. But I hesitate, only because I'm not sure where else it leads. And also because, as I wrote above, I'm not really into labels.

But your comments prompt one question. Where does a libertarian, such as yourself, someone of the libertarian left, view "corporate personhood"? Somehow I'm guessing it's a contradiction in terms. But I'm interested in your response.

Also, maybe you might want to put a good blog together, providing more info on the libertarian left. It's a time of ferment. A time for considering ideas. A time to return to what is basic in terms of our liberties, the Rule of Law, and our Constitution. You've got a good handle on that, I suspect!

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Corporate Personhood is an affront to the concept of individual liberty. It is also a collectivist entity, and as such should be get on a tight leash.

Corporations greatly distort the free-market, because they serve to shield owners from the real value of potential liabilities that should naturally flow from their business decisions. Capitalism and Free-Market are not synonymous terms.

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You have met my heart's desire here! Thanks. :)

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They have categorised myself, and others within the Party who believe in real liberty, with what they believe to be the denigrating label of "Anarchist Wing of The LP". These clowns still remain cluelessly amazed after discovering most of those they catergorised as such, mirthfully embraced the label.

First off nicely written and to the point as always PCA.

Although I do consider myself to be libertarian your post is exactly why I won't join the Libertarian Party. The Libertarian Party/libertarian movement was hijacked by the conservative Chicago School of Economics gangsters who saw it as an opportunity to further their pro-corporate agenda, which is far from what I consider to be a libertarian agenda. Corporations aren't individuals and thus don't have the corresponding 'rights' as one...and giving of money isn't protected speech. It seems when it comes to economic rights the Libertarian Party are willing to sacrifice the majority of 'We the People's' individuals rights to protect the rights of a scant few. As far as I am concerned that position is a bastardization of what libertarianism is about.

Welcome to the libertarian-left...

Anarchist 4 life...

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It seems this is one more deception perpetrated by the neo-cons. Cons: How accurate!

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Probably not the song or band that you'd expect here, but it seems appropriate, sort of; and I prefer the cover.

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Why not, lol? I posted 'Motorhead' by Hawkwind (Lemmy's original band and his 'anthem') on my randomness thread. ;-)

And I think this song by Motorhead is germane to this conversation (I really need a hyperlink formatting lesson too)...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h45WnW0ASFY


And I am still interested in your thoughts on the Quicksilver song I did the latest video for too...either here, or there if you don't use up TPM's bandwidth on the issue.

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<a href="http://www.yourlink.com">Anchor Text</a>

Careful though, don't just copy-n-paste this as a template; escaped forward slashes sometimes do not parse properly when copied. Transcribe it into a text editor, and use that as the template.

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haven't visited you vid site in a bit. i'll check it out ASAP, and let you know.

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Thanks PCA. I ask because a while ago here you asked me why I did a vid for 'Gold and Silver' and said you had a story/anecdote to relate about it. And thanks for the hyperlink lesson...thankfully we have a 'preview' function for me to practice with.

:)

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oh yeah, I forgot. it's best as a private channel message as it involves S,D and R&R.

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Woo Hoo!!! Along with politics 3 of my favorite subjects. *_*

I'll check there when I get back from my store later tonight.

8-)

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Great reply, PCA, and I think you well delineated most of the distinction I make between pseudo-Libertarians and the genuine model.

The Anarchist wing of the Libertarian Party? How much more would you need to know about the intellectual integrity of the Libertarian who would make such a charge?

For myself, I find much of interest in libertarian philosophy, and I've met many libertarians who are closely aligned with my political perspective. You do a pretty good job of explaining the difficulties/impossibilities of maintaining a "pure" libertarian system of government (non-government?).

Whereas I suspect from reading much of what you have written that you and I are pretty closely aligned politically, I could not ever be comfortable claiming to be a libertarian. Most critically, the libertarian philosophy falls horrifically short when applied to capitalism. There can be no more cruel an economic system than unfettered capitalism, and I find my most strident political opponents call upon libertarian arguments to pursue cruelty and irresponsible greed and negligence in the markets. I simply can't go there at all, and cannot therefore be identified as a sympathetic "libertarian."

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I don't know where John went astray. I taught him US history in 7th great. Nice guy and good student. What happened? And, no, I did not introduce him to the "unitary executive" idea.

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Far out!!!! Really something Tlees2. Quite a story.

Blog it. Tell me more!!!

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John was a very nice, conscientious Middle School student. When he went to our high school at the Episcopal Academy, he continued to be a good guy, good student, and a fine squash player. He was so talented that he earned admission to Harvard. I lost track of him until I read in the alumni magazine that he had graduated from Yale Law School and was clerking for Clarence Thomas. I remember reading that and thinking "Clarence Thomas!!! This can't be good!"

When he I last saw him at a school function in the fall of 2002, he was as polite and reasonable as ever. I don't know where he picked up this "unitary executive" stuff, but it sure wasn't from me.

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I sometimes think the repubs recruit these people and gradually draw them in, placing them in situations where they slowly compromise themselves, bit by bit. Till it's too late.

I suppose if you surround yourself with people believing the ends justify the means, and draw them into a web of deceit, many may just cave in. All the ego stroking. And the moves up the ladder.

But now it seems the guy has bumped up against a rock and a hard place.

I wonder if these guys truly thought republican rule would last forever. And no one would ever look at their writing. And question their thinking.

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John got seduced by The Dark Side, to use a Star Wars and pop culture analogy.

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Now John Yoo wants to destroy the monster he helped create? He has found 'religion'? Only because his side isn't in power anymore.

He has 'expertise' in keeping government 'honest'? Ummmmmmm...errrrrr...hmmmmmmm...really? His track record when in government doesn't indicate that this is fact. With his penchant for tortured legal logic maybe we should ask him what is his definition of 'honest'. It might not be the same definition the rest of us have.

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Yes, he probably would like to torture a few dems!

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Based on the assumption that his 'definition' of what is a 'terrorist' includes anyone who disagreed with the POTUS during his time in government, I would say that is a safe bet Thera. In Yoo's view of America there is no room for dissent...in his world dissent = treason.

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Which is why, of course, he subverted the OLC. To do otherwise would have meant treason - if dissent was to become a terrorist. Any honorable person should have resigned rather than sell his soul that way.

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Yeah absolutely Thera. It was a command performance in legal 'Pretzel Logic'. He twisted the law to get to a desired outcome motivated by partisan politics. And that 'outcome' was the basis of I dare say every abuse of power that I feel the Bush Administration is guilty of committing.

The scary thing about Yoo is that it appeared at the time he felt he was doing the 'patriotic' and 'honorable' by pissing all over the Constitution he took an oath to defend. Maybe he is trying to back away from that position now. But if he is I think it isn't because of some cathartic awakening but because he feels he could face repercussions over what he wrote.

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Yoo's an attorney. Attorneys advocate for their clients. Yoo advocated for his clients.

Get over it!

N.B. The question is who did he think were his clients and was he correct.

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A secondary but more important question is whether legal memoranda addressed to the executive branch can have -- can be permitted to have -- any legal weight whatsoever if they are kept secret from the people.

Why castigate Yoo? He's a strawman or maybe, a scapegoat. His memoranda are nullities and always were. Because they were kept secret, they never had any legal significance.

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Because we have to start with someone Ellen...and the 'someone' who wrote the memos is as good a place to start as any. And he was the one who wrote the memos which were the underpinning that allow the claim of the previous (and current?) administration that the government of 'we the people' can hide what it is doing from us. And until a light is shined on all of what was done his views have very important significance in reality.

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A bit more complicated, because Yoo was also a DoJ employee, and must have taken an oath of office. Did this oath of office include a promise to uphold and defend the Constitution?

An attorney who advocates that his client engage in unlawful activities, or using specious arguments is also derelict.

I have not asserted that Yoo be brought up on criminal charges. In fact I find great poetic justice that this former hotshot FedSociety member, once thought to be fast-tracking his way to the Federal Bench, has a future of tenured Professorship at UCB, facing 1st year law students, who give him no respect, speak in derogatory terms about him between each other, when he passes by them on campus, and has significant negative issues that cloud any desire to go on a European Vacation.

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Nevertheless, if you read Dawn Johnsen's lengthy paper on the role of the Office of Legal Counsel, you see how woefully inadequate was the role Yoo played - how subservient an official became whose first allegiance was to interpret the Constitution, not to "serve" the executive's will:

http://www.acslaw.org/files/Dawn%20Johnsen%20July%202007.pdf

This article is worth a read. And it contains a link to the recommended Guidelines for OLC.

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