Obama Bad, Capitalism Good
Did I get your attention?
I realize that many bloggers are Democrats and believe in universal health care. I used to feel that way.
This is the best blog for the liberal who is starting to have doubts about his idealogy:
Capitalism has given us a great standard of living. Perhaps your journey from Liberal to Libertarian can begin today.
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you're too miseserly to be a Democrat?
November 1, 2009 12:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
Democrat... well I don't like democracy.(The many oppressing the few). So take the democracy out of democrat...maybe I could be ok with Emocrats.
November 1, 2009 1:17 AM | Reply | Permalink
Of course you do not like Democracy; you are pitching a Hapsburg Monarchist. You believe that a few have the right to oppress the many. Take your Austrian Schooled gruel, and shove it.
November 1, 2009 5:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
No, I oppose democracy (the many oppressing the few), just as much as I oppose monarchy(the few oppressing the many. Anarcho-Capitalism is the complete absence of oppression.
November 1, 2009 10:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Syn,
Thanks for your reply. You bring up a lot of common misconceptions about capitalism.
I don't think capitalism is God either. I think the advantages of capitalism are right out there and can be seen by anyone who stops to consider it.
You mention that capitalism is abusive, but capitalism is by its very nature not abusive. It is consensual. Perhaps you are using abusive in a very different manner.
As far as war goes, I view war as antithetical to capitalism. War is funded by taxpayer dollars and usually involves a disrespect for the property rights of foreigners on a massive scale.
"And some things are in the best interest of capitalism. ...the basic health of himself, his family, his employees..."
You seem to be implying that socialize medicine is good for capitalism. But you're wrong for two reasons. First, it is simply not true that people don't worry about their health in countries with socialized medicine. They will be put on a waiting list, and they'll do anything they can to get to the top of the waiting list.
Second, your mistaken to think its a bad thing for people to be worried about their health. Worrying about your health can cause you to work harder to be able to afford better health insurance.
"criminal, law-breaking capitalists"
I don't think capitalists are more dishonest than the average man, there is crime everywhere.
"Unhealthy capitalism is blind and shoots itself in the foot by not recognizing the consequences 'not' caring for the needs of society as a whole."
Simple rebuttal: capitalists do not oppose charity, but it should be voluntary. Not government funded.
"There is no one way and currently capitalism, the way it's being used and abused, is nearly destroying or country."
Really? How so? Our standard of living continues to rise.
November 1, 2009 1:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
My first impression upon reading your response to my comment is that perhaps you do not recognize the theivery that occurs on grand scale in the name of capitalism every day, right in front of our faces.
Corruption exists on massive scales but among the wealthy and powerful is rarely held to account. So this is where I derive my opinion that capitalism is abused.
To casually say that well 'crime' is everywere la, la, la is to me to recognize nothing about what I am saying.
A teacher that held a pension with the state of WY had worked his whole entire life and saved money for his family and retirment his entire life. He worked extra jobs even though he had this savings and he had saved and earned in his pension $420,000.
Last year he lost about $200,000 of this money. Why? Because of corrupt, greedy people who used the law and capitalism to their advantage. He is just one tiny example of capitalism with no checks and balances and IT DOES NOT WORK.
As I said no pure one sided ideology is going to be healthy no matter how you try to squeeze your perception into that possiblity. It's just not the nature of life.
And the same greed and selfishness is exactly why charity will never suffice.
If you cannot embrace some level of responsbility for all society you don't deserve to be a part of it.
And a man who is sick cannot work hard. And your point of view regarding not recognizing that the person across from you whow may be dying is not worthy of support, for the sake of all individual freedom, disgusts me.
You can look at it as being 'forced' by the government to help other people. But I consider it your good fortune to be contributing to the well being of your society in concordance with the government.
My purpose in mentioning war is that we are not safer, we have killed more innocent people than we lost in 9/11, and we have transferred a great amount of wealth in the form of death from the tax payer straight to corporations that already weild power over us, break our laws, and are never or rarely ever held to any account. Capitlism has its sickness and ailmens. I assure you. When you can talk about what those are... then maybe we will have something further to discuss.
November 1, 2009 1:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Okay I have some typos in there but this sentence
'in the form of death' the word death should be debt.
November 1, 2009 1:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Syn,
This has been a healthy dialogue. Remember some of Ayn Rand's most devoted followers reacted very violently to her in the beginning. =)
"A teacher that held a pension with the state of WY had worked his whole entire life and saved money for his family and retirement his entire life. He worked extra jobs even though he had this savings and he had saved and earned in his pension $420,000.
Last year he lost about $200,000 of this money. Why? Because of corrupt, greedy people who used the law and capitalism to their advantage. He is just one tiny example of capitalism with no checks and balances and IT DOES NOT WORK."
Let's review what happened here. Your friend worked for the GOVERNMENT.(Not the private sector). The government stupidly invested his money and unfortunately, he lost his pension.
Remember, the stock prices probably did not go down because of corruption, but because the market value of the stocks fluctuates for a lot of valid reasons. Of course, your friend did choose to work for the government, so I can't say for sure that he/she was victimized. I can say for sure the taxpayer was victimized by the building of public schools.
"And the same greed and selfishness is exactly why charity will never suffice."
Says who? Who decides arbitrarily how much the poor should be helped? No one really knows how much is enough, so that's why I say let people donate voluntarily.
"If you cannot embrace some level of responsibility for all society you don't deserve to be a part of it."
You need to clarify your argument. Do you mean that you should be able to banish people who are not charitable to their fellow man? You can believe what you want, but in the long run forcing people to give to the less fortunate punishes success and makes the economy weaker.
"your point of view regarding not recognizing that the person across from you whow may be dying is not worthy of support, for the sake of all individual freedom, disgusts me."
Well to each his own. I realize that many people believe Obama's health care reform is oh so moral... there are many Catholics and Reform Jews who think the way you do.
What I'm trying to get accross to you is that socialism, even moderate European socialism, has consequences, and society is better off in the long run as a capitalist one.
"You can look at it as being 'forced' by the government to help other people. But I consider it your good fortune to be contributing to the well being of your society in concordance with the government."
Then how about you donate to the government but others are not forced to pay taxes? I suspect you really are skirting the issue here, we wouldn't be having this conversation if you did not believe in forcing social welfare programs.
"Capitalism has its sickness and ailments. I assure you."
I"m sure there are many Jehovah's witnesses who could have assured me that the world would end in the 1970's... We're having a rational discussion, we need more than assurances.
November 1, 2009 1:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
The person I mentioned above worked for a community college.
The stock market is being used as a way for greedy people to gamble with other people's money. If they weren't making bad deals in order to make 'more money' corporations would not have asked to be bailed out.
Your suggestion that to care about the life of human beings you do not know must be associated religion. Disgusting. I am of no religion just to disprove that theory. And I don't particularly think Obama's health care plan is so very moral because he would be happy to have a public option with a trigger whereas I would like to have universal health care for all.
In fact it is clear that we disagree on just about everything.
But I think I will stop here in trying to have any kind of discussion with you. I think your name gives you away...
Pirate.
November 1, 2009 3:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
I do not believe any pure system is the 'right' way. I believe that capitalism has it's place but it is clearly not God and does not account for extreme greed and extreme selfishness inherent within humanity.
So capitalism is not bad but it will never be healthy without the inclusion of it's antithesis socialism. Socialism is not bad but society would not be healthy without the check of capitalism.
It is time to move beyond polarizing on paradoxes and do what is best for our society. What will make it healthier and stronger.
Currently capitalism has become a monster in this country because it has been treated as if it is 'right' or 'God'. Too many abuses have piled up so that abuse has become the norm among the wealthy and well connected and many are allowed to walk around as if they are not criminals, as if they have any integrity, when it is clear that they absolutely are criminals, they have abused laws and people to gain their wealth and they have no integrity.
When it comes to the basic health and well being of all people, I feel it is an evolution of understanding of the connection of all things and an evolution in consciousness to choose to commit our efforts and energy to making heatlh care a basic right for all citizens.
Capitalism does not encourage integrity or goodness in human beings. It doesn't have to. That is not it's purpose. But it will always be abusive and fought against until we learn to include the principles of socialism in appropriate ways as well.
I am not saying that capitalism and socialism or any paradox should be 'balanced'. Instead I would say they need to dance with each other and be in used in ways that give us the strengths of each as appropriate.
There is no one way and currently capitalism, the way it's being used and abused, is nearly destroying or country.
And some things are in the best interest of capitalism. For example, if a man is healthy, how much better able is he to work, create, and take care of himself, his family, and contribute to society. If he is unhealthy, all of this is much more difficult to do. Also if a man knows that one thing he does not have to worry about is that the basic health of himself, his family, his employees, and his community will be cared for...
he will never have to spend time, energy,and money worrying about that aspect of life or beings stressed about it. Thus he will have more time to create and contribute.
Unhealthy capitalism is blind and shoots itself in the foot by not recognizing the consequences 'not' caring for the needs of society as a whole.
We should always work to make our social systems better. Make sure they are paid for. But we should also make sure that are wars are paid for and they have generally been huge boons to war-profiteering, greedy, criminal, law-breaking capitalists.
Well you brought it up:)
November 1, 2009 1:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
Once upon a time capitalism and liberals and conservatives got along reasonably well.
Then somebody got greedy and fucked it up.
The only doubts I have is if wingers will ever figure out just who it is that has actually fucked them over.
Hint. It ain't libs.
November 1, 2009 6:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
"The only doubts I have is if wingers will ever figure out just who it is that has actually fucked them over."
I don't feel fucked over... do you?
November 1, 2009 1:18 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh and as to your caveman-like 'Obama bad' reference... He's not bad and he's not God or Superman either. I voted for him. I am not happy with the way he has handled the health insurance/care debate but I'd still vote for him over John McCain right now in a heartbeat.
And, yes, I believe our society would be better off if we initiated universal health care. Spare me the waiting list and horror stories... what they have would be a huge improvement over our system and our horror stories.
Obama = way better than McCain
Let's move on to something more interesting.
November 1, 2009 2:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Let's move on to something more interesting."
Was fun while it lasted. I didn't vote in the presidential election, I left it blank. I did vote against expanding the Dallas public hospital, unfortunately that passed.
"Oh and as to your caveman-like 'Obama bad' reference.."
but you did respond.. =)
November 1, 2009 3:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Mises.
Oh Gawd, not another bodice-ripper worshipper.
You people disgusted Ayn, even.
It should be miserly.org.
November 1, 2009 5:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
I admire the Von Mises Institute, not so much Von Mises himself. Very few of the articles are actually by Von Mises, many of them are by Rothbard and a whole mess of other people.
I'd have to say the most exciting author right now is Stephen Kinsella. He's brought a lot of innovations to the Austrian school, namely the opposition to intellectual property.
November 1, 2009 10:56 PM | Reply | Permalink