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Hi... I'm Stoopid... and I'm on the Right . . .


image Joe Wilson? South Carolina? ... I'm Not Surprised . . .




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"This evening I let my emotions get the best of me when listening to the president's remarks regarding the coverage of illegal immigrants in the health care bill," he said. "While I disagree with the president's statement, my comments were inappropriate and regrettable. I extend sincere apologies to the president for this lack of civility."

Did this bigmouth uncouth fathead ever turn a page and read the H.R. 3200 bill?


TITLE II--HEALTH INSURANCE EXCHANGE AND RELATED PROVISIONS

Subtitle C--Individual Affordability Credits

SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS.

Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.

~OGD~

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46 Comments

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This yahoo's behavior shouldn't go unchecked.

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This yahoo has supposedly apologized to the President tonight, by calling the White House and saying he's sorry.

I think he owes the rest of us an apology too.

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I think it's hysterical he had to speak with Rahm. What I wouldn't give for a tape of that conversation!

And FYI - CNN reports that tonight Miller (Wilson's Dem opponent in 2010) has raised over $40k tonight - attributed to Wilson's horrific outburst!

I say we all donate $5.00 too with a note stating it's our outcry against Wilson!

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Total's now up to $100K...lookin' for a link...

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See, there is OGD with the dead-on evidence. Put up or shut up.

OGD always puts up. ha

He gave a half ass apology as far as I am concerned.

Thank you for this little tidbit of info.

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OGD,

You left out the part about how it's is quite literally impossible to enforce Section 246 since applicants do not have to answer any questions pertaining to race or ethnicity.

Consequently, an illegal alien must only lie on 1 question to gain access to a system in which they do not pay taxes into.

Wilson was out of line. He will pay a price.

But how can anyone possibly believe that hundreds of thousands of illegal immigrants won't ultimately receive health care they're not entitled to?

Maybe my hardened feelings have come about because I live in California (where illegals have gamed the system to the point where the state is facing economic ruin)? Either way, it's ignorant to think there is any mechanism in the proposed legislation to actually enforce Section 246. The politicians, at the end of the day, can point to that section and say they did their part and couldn't forsee the disaster that followed...

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I like this comment a lot. It's not hyperbolic but it does inform some that don't live in the border states that there is a serious abuse of the system. I remember Prop 187 from way back!

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Well . . .

I too live in a border state? I also reside in California, born and raised here. Sixty-two years.

The current requirements since 2006 are wee bit different in this state and all other states on the reporting requirements for Federal benefits since the Deficit Reduction Act of 2005 was signed into law in February 2006. From the HHS site:

Proof of Citizenship

The Deficit Reduction Act of 2005 Section 6036 requires individuals to provide satisfactory documentary evidence of citizenship or nationality when initially applying for Medicaid or upon a recipient's first Medicaid re-determination.


The following is for the State of California:

What is the DRA?

Federal Deficit Reduction Act of 2005 requiring evidence of citizenship and identification as a condition of Medi-Cal eligibility

Implementation dates

California implemented regulations in July 2007
Sonoma County operationalized in April 2008

Who is affected?

All citizens or nationals of the U.S. who apply for or receive Medi-Cal, with certain exceptions

Who is exempt?

• SSI beneficiaries
• Social Security Disability beneficiaries
• Social Security Retirement and Survivors Insurance beneficiaries who receive benefits based on their own disability
• Medicare beneficiaries
• Some others
What do applicants and beneficiaries have to provide?

Acceptable evidence of citizenship must be original documents.
Acceptable documents that satisfy both the citizenship and ID (First Tier) requirement include:

• U.S. Passport without limitations
• Certificate of Naturalization
• Certificate of Citizenship

Acceptable documents that satisfy just the citizenship requirement include:

• Original or certified birth certificate
• Many other documents issued by the U.S. Government that verify citizenship status both for those born abroad and for Native Americans.

If someone does not have one of the First Tier documents, they will need to verify identity with a separate document, such as a Driver's license or ID card, as well as other acceptable documents.

When?

All citizen applicants for Medi-Cal must provide citizenship and identity verifications at application in order to receive full scope benefits. If unable to provide within a reasonable time frame, they can be granted restricted, emergency only benefits.

All citizen beneficiaries must provide citizenship and identity verifications at the time of their annual redetermination.

How long do you have to provide verification?

At application initially 20 days. If it is taking longer to obtain, our staff will work with you and keep your application pending.

For annual redeterminations, you will be given as long as needed. As long as you are demonstrating that You are trying to obtain verification, benefits will remain at full-scope level.

What assistance is available?

The first thing Human Services will do is attempt to verify citizenship for a person born in California via a data match with CA Vital Statistics. If not born in California the department can assist the applicant or beneficiary with identifying where they can obtain the documents needed. In cases of hardship, financial assistance to pay for documents is available.

Impact to CMSP?

These rules do not apply to the CMSP (County Medical Services Program), only to Medi-Cal.



So -- as far as lying on 1 question as Gettysburg stated, nothing is totally fool proof and there's always those few who attempt to game the system but it's a wee bit tougher for an undocumented individual to get past the DRA law and HHS requirements that have been in force since 2007.

You folks ought to try immersing yourselves in the particulars and standing laws  before exhibiting your shoot from the lip anecdotal stories and ignorance of the law on the rest of the reasonable fact based people around here.

~OGD~
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Nice one OGD. It's birtherism 2.0 - just insinuate unsubstantiated skepticism. Annoying to have to keep slapping this stuff down, but someone's got to do it...

Thanks.

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OGD,

That didn't fix the problem nearly as well as you think. You are very good at Googling a primary government source and yes, I know that puts you ahead of at least 60% of the people here, but you think it makes you expert. Since you are in retirement, I know that you can't have the experience that I have had with INS over the past few years, so I can't even say "your mileage may differ". But while something may be on paper, doesn't mean it has an effect in the real world.

As I'm sure you know, it's easy to grab fake SSN's and then move merrily along -- without paying taxes (as kgb implies). The point is that in 2009, undocumented aliens are still a huge problem (and burden) to the system and there out to be check and balances to ensure that the proviso put into the bill can be easily enforced.

The border states pay a terribly unfair tax for undocumented aliens. For example, the rest of the nation enjoys the price structure provided by the gray market of labor used in agriculture from good produced in CA (as an example), without any of the attendant costs.

I am not for what Wilson did and I'm glad someone on TPM bothered to look up what we knew to be the case (and am hardly surprised it was you). However, I'm glad that Gettysburg pointed out (however imperfectly) that the issue of undocumented aliens is a serious one. Because many people from the rest of the country -- and especially from the far left -- simply want to sweep it up as "racism". There are many who work for the INS who are Latino that would beg to disagree with that sentiment.

We need to build into the bill the kind of verifications to prevent abuse, especially given what we know today about ID theft. I have a separate ID number from my insurance company -- no reason why everything has to be tied into SSN.

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It's why I support a biometrics-based national ID card to replace the social security card. When that system was designed, information security wasn't even a plot in a science fiction book.

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Let's see here...

I originally responded to the following two statements:

Gettesyburg said:

... an illegal alien must only lie on 1 question to gain access to a system in which they do not pay taxes into.

And . . .

The One Who Thinks He Thinks said:

I remember Prop 187 from way back!

And my response was this: The current requirements since 2006 are wee bit different in this state and all other states on the reporting requirements for Federal benefits since the Deficit Reduction Act of 2005 was signed into law in February 2006. And I gave as an example those current requirements for gaining access for assistance to the California MediCal system.

That doesn't make me think I'm an "expert." I just think folks should do a bit of research before jumping into a thread and running off at the mouth with no information backing up one's own claim.

That's all.

~OGD~

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I'm not sure I can agree with your statement that illegals have gamed the system to the point where your state is facing economic ruin.....did not your Governor and your state have anything to do with that?

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LisB,

Yes, the governor and the state assembly have certainly been guilty of not working together. As a result, each group fought for, and mostly received, their own measures in the budget.

But there are so many illegal immigrants in California with driver's licenses, social security numbers, etc. that there are far more people utilizing social programs than actually pay taxes to fund those programs. The problem is beyond insolvency.

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If they have a legit social security card, they are paying taxes(and would seem to be perfectly legal).

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Hey . . .

I posted some info above in response to both you and that other person . . . here. You may wish to check that out before you go any further with the anecdotal information you're putting out.

For the times they are a'changing...

~OGD~

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First off, neither race nor ethnicity have anything to do with immigration status. Second, reality simply doesn't support your assertion. They would need to forge a social security card (or number at the very least) - and the number would have to somehow not flag the information system that is *mandated* in the bill. Also, they haven't even discussed application standards (which will be done by the board according to the legislation, I believe) so there is no way to assert what they will or won't ask. (It's pretty much a given the SS# will be used because that's how every medical and government IT system is keyed ... it's rather far fetched to think they'd go proprietary and lose compatibility just so those dirty illegals could get free care).

But in the larger scheme of things, that just means that we pay 100x the rate when they go to the emergency room where it's illegal to not treat them, so who gets the last laugh really? It's better not to merge your feelings about Mexicans with health reform, the issues don't really coincide much. Health and education issues for illegal immigrants will be fought over in the immigration bill - until then it will be strictly status quo.

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Except that not all illegals can be sussed out by checking a box about their race and ethnicity. Maybe it's unfair of me, but I'm deducing from your comment that you're concerned about screening out illegals from south of the border, not anywhere else.

1) There are people living here LEGALLY from a variety of backgrounds and ethnicities.


2) There are people living here ILLEGALLY who would probably check "white/non-hispanic". Example: a Canadian colleague is still living here despite the fact that his visa expired 5 years ago. Technically, he's illegal. What box would he check to make sure you can deny him healthcare?

The questions you referred to were removed because they're discriminatory and don't serve a purpose. The bill does not cover illegals. People caught gaming the system will be charged and deported. The end.

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The thing is, Wilson is not at all stupid about protocol: He's got plenty of military, judicial, state, and national service under his belt. He's no rookie; he knows better.

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Kinda, sorta, like maybe it wasn't an accident at all?

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Yep. So what do you think gasket? Whats the gameplan here?

From CNN:

It specifically bars illegal immigrants from receiving those subsidies. Section 246, which is included in the part of the bill that sets up the exchange, forbids payments "on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States."

But when Cardin said undocumented workers "will not be in this bill," he appears to have missed one point: It may require them to buy their own coverage.

That's the conclusion of the Congressional Research Service, which issued a report on the topic this week. According to the CRS, noncitizens who can be considered "resident aliens" under U.S. tax law would have to buy insurance — and unlike immigration laws, the tax code doesn't distinguish between legal and illegal immigrants.

"Thus, legal permanent residents, and noncitizens and unauthorized aliens who qualify as resident aliens … would be required under H.R. 3200 to have health insurance," the new report states.

Its already being spun as 'he said she said'.

so did the repubs throw this out there so Dems have to say they hate Mexicans as much as the repubs do? Or is this just more meat for the base? To be played over and over again.

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Seemed to have screwed up my quote carrots.

That's the conclusion of the Congressional Research Service, which issued a report on the topic this week. According to the CRS, noncitizens who can be considered "resident aliens" under U.S. tax law would have to buy insurance — and unlike immigration laws, the tax code doesn't distinguish between legal and illegal immigrants.

"Thus, legal permanent residents, and noncitizens and unauthorized aliens who qualify as resident aliens … would be required under H.R. 3200 to have health insurance," the new report states.

from cnn

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Here ya' go . . .

Take it from the actual source . . .

Here's the PDF file:

Treatment of Noncitizens in H.R. 3200

August 25, 2009

Summary

This report outlines the treatment of noncitizens (aliens) under H.R. 3200, America’s Affordable Health Choices Act of 2009. In particular, the report analyzes specific provisions in H.R. 3200, and whether there are eligibility requirements for noncitizens in the provisions. Within the bill, noncitizens are treated differently in several provisions. In 2008, there were approximately 37.3 million foreign-born persons in the United States. The foreign-born population was comprised of approximately 15.1 million naturalized U.S. citizens and 22.2 million noncitizens.

H.R. 3200 includes an individual mandate to have health insurance, with tax penalties for noncompliance. Individuals who do not maintain acceptable health insurance coverage for themselves and their children would be required to pay an additional tax. Some individuals, including nonresident aliens, would be exempt from the individual mandate. “Nonresident alien” is a term under tax but not immigration law. For federal tax purposes, alien individuals are classified as resident or nonresident aliens. In general, an individual is a nonresident alien unless he or she meets the qualifications under a residency test. Thus, legal permanent residents, and noncitizens and unauthorized aliens who qualify as resident aliens (i.e., meet the substantial presence test), would be required under H.R. 3200 to have health insurance.

In addition, under H.R. 3200, a “Health Insurance Exchange” would begin operation in 2013 and would offer private plans alongside a public option. The Exchange would provide eligible individuals and small businesses with access to insurers’ plans, including the public option, in a comparable way. Individuals would only be eligible to enroll in an Exchange plan if they were not enrolled in other acceptable coverage (for example, from an employer, Medicare and generally Medicaid). H.R. 3200 does not contain any restrictions on noncitzens participating in the Exchange—whether the noncitizens are legally or illegally present, or in the United States temporarily or permanently. Nonetheless, only aliens who could be classified as resident aliens would be required under the bill to have health insurance.

In 2013, under H.R. 3200, some individuals would be eligible for premium credits (i.e., subsidies based on income) toward their required purchase of health insurance. To be eligible for the premium credits under H.R. 3200, individuals must be lawfully present in a state in the United States, excluding most nonimmigrants (i.e., those in the United States for a specific purpose and a specific period of time). The exceptions for nonimmigrants who could obtain premium credits under H.R. 3200 would be trafficking victims, crime victims, fiancées of U.S. citizens, and those who have had applications for legal permanent residence (LPR) status pending for three years. It is expected that almost all aliens in these excepted nonimmigrant categories will become LPRs (i.e., immigrants) and remain in the United States permanently. Furthermore, unauthorized aliens would be barred from receiving the premium credit.

H.R. 3200 as reported from the House Energy and Commerce Committee (E&C) would extend Medicaid eligibility up to 133 1/3% of poverty for populations that previously were not covered (e.g., childless adults and many parents). This extension of benefits could mean an increase in the number of noncitizens who already meet the immigration status requirements for Medicaid eligibility who would be eligible for Medicaid. Also, H.R. 3200 as reported by E & C would make eligible for full Medicaid noncitizens who lawfully reside in the United States in accordance with the Compacts of Free Association between the Government of the United States and the Governments of the Federated States of Micronesia, the Republic of the Marshall Islands, and the Republic of Palau, and are otherwise eligible for such assistance. This report will be updated.

The entire report is 11 pages in length. I'll have to read through that sucker in the morning to get to the IRS tax requirement reporting opinion and the actual section on the opinion of the allowance for undocumented residents to purchase from the Exchange.

It's time for lights out here on the left coast.

~OGD~

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Your research is impeccable. I'd be willing to bet there are similiar laws, restrictions, guidelines etc. that prevent illegal aliens from working in the U.S. Yet....

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Well big fucking deal . . .

Maybe Wilson should read up on the current laws and requirements for applying for Federal benefits as outlined in the Deficit Reduction Act of 2005 signed into law by his tight buddy Bush. I've basically outlined them above in this post.

He knows better ... He was just being an asshole.

~OGD~

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Yes, he knows better. Military guys are not "just assholes" to the Commander in Chief. You literally cannot be more insulting to the president in a national forum than Wilson was. It has nothing to do with the content of the health care bill; Wilson was challenging Obama's authority as president.

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Yes... Yes... Yes...

I served too. Johnson and Nixon were the CnCs. I know what you're getting at, but this Wilson's just a plain old asshole. Especially if he's being disrespectful to his CnC. Hell, I wouldn't doubt that his fellow South Carolinian Lindsey Graham put him up to it. Lindsey doesn't have a enough nuts to do it himself.

Feel better now?

~OGD~

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Do not mean to pounce on you specifically, pretty much everyone misuses the term, but Obama is not Wilson's Commander-in-Chief, as Wilson is not active-duty.

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I'm not being so strictly literal.

Obama is still the symbolic Commander in Chief. Hierarchy is all symbolic anyway, no? Decorum is an invention that we assign value to.

Nowhere are the rules of hierarchy and decorum more rigid than in the military. So Wilson's disrespect carries additional (symbolic) meaning.

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He could have thrown a shoe.

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Thank you very much for the effort you put in to locating actual sources and factual information!!

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You want to talk about quantitative facts?

Should we begin with Obama's assertion that his plan will be funded without "adding a penny" to the deficit?

He would actually have us believe that he can come up with 2 TRILLION dollars by tightening some screws here and there and eliminating wasteful spending in the insurance and health provider arenas?

Talk about a load of disingenuous crap...

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Hahahahaha . . . disingenuous crap?

At least you're speaking from a position of authority about promulgating disingenuous crap.

Exhibit A: Obama/Rashid Khalidi bullshit October 29, 2008

Go pull someone else's chain.

Hahahahaha . . .

~OGD~

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OGD:

Oops, looks like there WAS a loophole in the Democratic bill after all!

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/09/10/rep-wilson-outburst-leads-senate-dems-close-loophole-health-reform/

Looks like your quantitative facts failed to tell the whole story. That's why qualitative arguments are an essential part of debate.

Hell, we could go back to 1963 and come up with thousands of pages of quantitative data that would support an invasion of Vietnam by American forces.

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Oh really . . .

It appears that Gettysburg overlooked my earlier post containing the opinion of the Congressional Research Service report that I posted at 4:42 AM?

Although undocumented aliens could at their own discretion purchase private insurance policies through the Exchange (just like they can purchase private insurance policies now) they would not be required to do so. And they would not be able to receive federal subsidies starting in 2013 even if they met the 133% level of poverty. Again see:

H.R. 3200

TITLE II--HEALTH INSURANCE EXCHANGE AND RELATED PROVISIONS

Subtitle C--Individual Affordability Credits

SEC. 246. NO FEDERAL PAYMENT FOR UNDOCUMENTED ALIENS.

Nothing in this subtitle shall allow Federal payments for affordability credits on behalf of individuals who are not lawfully present in the United States.

In addition: The insurance policies purchased through the Exchange from private insurance providers is designed to receive no subsidization from taxpayer funds and are required to be self-sufficient from the premiums collected. The public option would not be available to undocumented aliens if there were any federal funds from taxpayers used to operate the public option. Although, even the public option is required to be self-sufficient from the premiums collected, thereby keeping the playing field level with the private plans in the Exchange.

And why would it be that the Commissioner overseer (here under this bill being the Secretary of Health and Human Services) would not enforce the laws all ready established by following existing federal statutes such as the following?

Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 (IRCA)

IRCA, Public Law 99-603, required the former Immigration and Naturalization Service (currently U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (USCIS), under the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), effective March 1, 2003) to establish a system for verifying the immigration status of non-citizen applicants for, and recipients of, certain types of federally funded benefits, and to make the system available to federal, state and local benefit-issuing agencies and institutions that administer such benefits.  USCIS is the DHS agency responsible for administering the SAVE Program to meet this IRCA requirement.  IRCA, as amended, mandates the following programs and overseeing agencies to participate in the verification of an applicant's immigration status:

  • Temporary Assistance to Needy Families (TANF) Program, the Medicaid Program, (U.S. Department of Health and Human Services);
  • Unemployment Compensation Program (U.S. Department of Labor);
  • Title IV Educational Assistance Programs (U.S. Department of Education); and
  • Certain housing assistance programs (U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development).

Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Reconciliation Act of 1996 (PRWORA)

PRWORA, Public Law 104-193, restructured the welfare system in the United States and restricted immigrant eligibility for public benefits, thus expanding the need to verify immigration status by benefit-granting agencies.  PRWORA, as codified at 8 U.S.C. §§ 1611 and 1621, defined "federal public benefits" and "state and local public benefits".   PRWORA also required the Attorney General to establish regulations and interim guidance for the verification of immigration status of persons applying for "federal public benefits."  The Department of Justice issued interim guidance in 1997.  See "Interim Guidance on Verification of Citizenship, Qualified Alien Status and Eligibility Under Title IV of [PRWORA]," 62 Federal Register 61,344-416 (Nov. 17, 1997).  This guidance is for any entity administering a non-exempt federal public benefit, other than non-profit charitable organizations, and is not limited to the agencies and programs specified in IRCA or those using SAVE.

Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 (IIRIRA)

IIRIRA, Public Law No. 104-208, passed by Congress in 1996, required that DHS-USCIS respond to inquiries from federal, state, and local agencies seeking to verify or determine the citizenship or immigration status of any individual within the jurisdiction of the agency for any purposes authorized by law.  Under this authority, agencies can use the SAVE Program for lawful purposes.

Real ID Act of 2005

The Real ID Act, Public Law No.109-13, passed by Congress in 2005, established certain minimum standards for state-issued drivers' licenses and state-issued identification cards in order for those documents to be acceptable for official federal purposes as specified by the Act.  DHS issued the Real ID Rule, "Minimum Standards for Driver's Licenses and Identification Cards Acceptable by Federal Agencies for Official Purposes," Final Rule, 6 C.F.R. Part 37, to implement the requirements of the Real ID Act.  To meet these requirements, states must use the SAVE Program to verify the immigration status of applicants for driver's licenses and identification cards.  Under the current schedule, states must be Real ID compliant by May 11, 2011.


Keep your head up, eyes open ...

~OGD~

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Now what about that asinine comment . . .

The one about... "...an illegal alien must only lie on 1 question to gain access to a system in which they do not pay taxes into.

I have yet to see any response form Mr. Quantitative/Quantitative.

I guess the bozo just walks away when faced with facts.

crickets . . .

~OGD~

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It clearly wasn't an accident that the aforementioned "loophole" existed in the first place.

By the way, why is it that you think illegal aliens can't obtain social security numbers?

Tens of thousands of illegals just in California have a SSN. Both the theft of legitimate SSN and the creation of facsimile cards has become a thriving cottage industry in California. Advocacy groups for illegal immigrants may or may not guide them in this direction (and the fraudulent SSN problem is not nearly on the same level as the driver's license/ID debacle is), but some of the most well informed individuals in California are illegal immigrants. Thanks in part to advocacy groups and word of mouth associations, they are far more familiar with social programs and how to gain benefits than most citizens or legal residents are.

Why would anyone think that more illegal immigrants won't receive the same or similar health care as citizens or legal residents under the plan being put forth before congress?

It will happen just as surely as the plan will cost 3 or 4 times more than what Obama and the Dems are currently suggesting.

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Seems like Mister Dilbert ...

. . . receives some form of gratification from repeating the same mantra.

Apparently no one has ever informed Mister Dilbert that male dogs don't lick their own balls for self-gratification.

Moving along... Nothing new here to see.

~OGD~

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The way I see it is that calling the POTUS a "liar" in congress undermines the constitutional authority of the state, and is therefore high treason. The man should be kidnapped in his bedroom by the military, and flown to Costa Rica and dumped off the plane on the airport tarmac, in his PJs.

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Freedom of speech affords him the right to say whatever he wants. The code of conduct for the House and plain old good manners makes it a breach of rules and social norms, but not of the Constitution.

In fact, I'm proud of the fact that we live in a country where a guy can stand up and call the President a liar to his face and not be imprisoned or physically harmed. That part is awesome. I just think it's immature to do so and a disgrace for an individual who is representing his district to behave like that in public.

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You must have missed my blogs on Honduras, burnedoutdem. But you're correct, of course.

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Oh, yeah. Sorry. Don't be shy, link to your past blogs! It's sometimes hard to distinguish between political vitriol and inside jokes :)

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lmao

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neoboho

If your suggestion were taken into consideration, every single Congressional Democrat would be arrested for their role in calling GW Bush a liar.

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Hmmmm...I watched many of Bush's speeches to Congress, and I don't recall any similar incidents from Democratic congressmen or congresswomen. Let's see what you got? Enlighten me.

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Oh...this is all just because you are pissed off that none of your Democratic representatives had the cajones to call Bush a liar to his face, first.

OldenGoldenDecoy

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