On popularity
I saw Miles Davis a few times, the last about a year and a half before he died. It was the most incredible concert I've ever heard. I could go on for pages about that concert but there was one moment that stands out. You see, Miles was not just a great trumpet player and one of the most creative improvisers. He was like a guru of jazz and subsequently of life.
So the band plays the head and Miles riffs a bit with the bass player to set him up for his improvisation. The bass player begins to build on the head, chords, and the riffs Miles set him up with. After a bit he plays this really cool funky bass line and the people clap and make a bit of noise, like you know, its so cool.
For those that know jazz there are certain things a musician can do that will grab the attention of the crowd. A funky base riff, a gospel like organ line, easily recognizable cool sounding musical moments, cliches that many in the audience dig.
The whole band has radio mikes on their instruments and Miles waves and the band backs off a bit and gets quiet. The bassist stopped playing. Miles puts the bell of his horn where the mike is to his mouth and says, "What did you do that for?"
The bass player is silent and after 10 or so seconds Miles asks again, "What did you do that for?"
Finally the bassist responded, "I guess I wanted them to clap."
Miles walked over the the bassist and takes his hand and holds it up in the air. And, of course, the crowd yelled and clapped. Then Miles walked over to the sax player and holds his hand up in the air and again the crowd roars. The sax guy yanked his hand out of Miles' hand a little angry like and walked away.
You know, sometimes I wonder if I imagined this, because most of the people there were busy grooving on the sound and the show and didn't see it. But clear as sunshine to my eyes Miles was showing that young bassist: Look, you don't have to do nothing and all I have to do is hold up your hand and the people will clap and cheer. Get serious.
Jazz is not about playing the cool riffs that everyone knows and loves. Its about coming up with some thing new and unusual and different than the same old lines that everyone has heard a thousand times before.
So why did I feel like posting this? Earlier today there was some discussion on a thread about who gets the rec's and who gets how much commentary putting someone down for not getting recced. Well I've seen many an interesting post generate a fair amount of dialog only to sink off the page with few rec's because it just wasn't one of the cool lines we all love hearing over and over again. And I've seen many of the same old same old bumped to the rec list with almost no comments because it said the things we love to hear.
Popularity and quality are not synonymous.
So the band plays the head and Miles riffs a bit with the bass player to set him up for his improvisation. The bass player begins to build on the head, chords, and the riffs Miles set him up with. After a bit he plays this really cool funky bass line and the people clap and make a bit of noise, like you know, its so cool.
For those that know jazz there are certain things a musician can do that will grab the attention of the crowd. A funky base riff, a gospel like organ line, easily recognizable cool sounding musical moments, cliches that many in the audience dig.
The whole band has radio mikes on their instruments and Miles waves and the band backs off a bit and gets quiet. The bassist stopped playing. Miles puts the bell of his horn where the mike is to his mouth and says, "What did you do that for?"
The bass player is silent and after 10 or so seconds Miles asks again, "What did you do that for?"
Finally the bassist responded, "I guess I wanted them to clap."
Miles walked over the the bassist and takes his hand and holds it up in the air. And, of course, the crowd yelled and clapped. Then Miles walked over to the sax player and holds his hand up in the air and again the crowd roars. The sax guy yanked his hand out of Miles' hand a little angry like and walked away.
You know, sometimes I wonder if I imagined this, because most of the people there were busy grooving on the sound and the show and didn't see it. But clear as sunshine to my eyes Miles was showing that young bassist: Look, you don't have to do nothing and all I have to do is hold up your hand and the people will clap and cheer. Get serious.
Jazz is not about playing the cool riffs that everyone knows and loves. Its about coming up with some thing new and unusual and different than the same old lines that everyone has heard a thousand times before.
So why did I feel like posting this? Earlier today there was some discussion on a thread about who gets the rec's and who gets how much commentary putting someone down for not getting recced. Well I've seen many an interesting post generate a fair amount of dialog only to sink off the page with few rec's because it just wasn't one of the cool lines we all love hearing over and over again. And I've seen many of the same old same old bumped to the rec list with almost no comments because it said the things we love to hear.
Popularity and quality are not synonymous.
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A friend of mine used to play with Joe Pass, and Joe was the same way. My friend said he'd stop you right in the middle of a solo and demand, "Why'd you play THAT?" And you'd have to sit there and JUSTIFY what you'd just played: "Well, Joe, I know it's a little corny, but I actually LIKE the sound of an augmented fourth over a major seven chord." I can't imagine what he was looking for. Fuckin' crotchety old freak.
You're right: popularity and quality are not synonymous. But in art, as sad as it may be, quantity trumps quality any day of the week. Just ask Morris Louis. Or Elvis Costello. And on TPM, there are certain voices that resonate a certain way, and they get the most attention. It doesn't matter. If you write from the heart and you mean what you say and you say it your way, that's all you can expect from yourself. Maybe no one will pay attention to what you're saying. Doesn't matter. Just write for yourself. That's all you can really do anyway.
November 11, 2008 9:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
quantity trumps quality any day of the week.
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Well dorf, that all depends on the listener. I've heard of Brittany Spears but I can't remember ever hearing her sing any of her songs. Maybe I'll check out youtube one of these days and see what she's all about as a musician.
November 11, 2008 9:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm a firm believer in the snapshot theory of art. Just create and create and create and create. And put it all out there. 90% of it will be crap. But the other 10% will be all that people remember.
November 11, 2008 10:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
what thread was the discussion on Oceankat?
November 11, 2008 9:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hmm, you know, I'd rather not point to the immediate specific that irked me today and thereby name names. I'd rather let the post stand as it is, as a general comment at all the times I've seen that sort of rec one up manship.
November 11, 2008 9:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
One other thing: it seems to me that a general rule around here is that when someone puts some genuine effort into a post, people will recommend it, if only for the obvious effort. It doesn't matter whether they agree or disagree. I've seen stuff near the top of the list that didn't even make sense, but it got there because it was fun to read. Or it was so weird that you couldn't not recommend it. What doesn't often get recommended is negativity. Those are the posts that earn 50 comments and zero recs.
November 11, 2008 10:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think that's very true. I rec based on humor content, effort put in, unusual ideas, or ideas that I would like to see debated more.
Nobody gets an auto-rec from me, (not even you, hreb tho you're close as anybody) but some folks like Quinn are so talented, funny and make me feel happy that I usually go to their posts pre-disposed to rec.
I am not so sure this de facto popularity system "most followed" is a good idea. I was astounded to be to the top 20 and my present rank is even more mystifying...there are far better posters out there who aren't even on the list...
Promiscuous posting...there seems to be some of that but not much. By that I mean posts whose sole intent seems to be less about informing and more in self-referential and/or self-promoting activities. I think on the whole though that we are losing alot of valuable voices because the volume of new posts from new voices is so high that not all can get enough recs to reach semi-immortality in the most recs column before being swept into the archives. Still's idea is a great palliative for this, which I haven't made good use of..
On the whole, I find a whole lot of people here interesting. I suppose that's why I'm following close to 70 people and would be following more, if my "follow" button hadn't stopped working for me a few days ago...!
November 11, 2008 10:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lux...thanks for the shout out, but it was Raider99's idea, I just took it over for him...On the community post tonight I have attempted to start a dialog about whether or not to continue it, as two days have gone by w/ no links being made...
I think it is a great idea, and the only way I can think of for the good posts to avoid sliding into the broken archives, but if it is going to continue links need to be made by more people than just me. One person can't be the judge of what stays up and what slides into oblivion.
If you get a chance why don't you slide over and comment on it.
November 12, 2008 1:20 AM | Reply | Permalink
I think post-election traffic must be way down. There are posts on the recommended list that have less than five recs. I think a lot of people are just taking a break before the start of the 2012 campaign season next week.
November 12, 2008 9:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for the kind words, Lux. I spend so much time causing trouble around here, I'm surprised anyone pays attention anymore. :) I'm not so sure about the whole "following" thing either. I wish they could at least come up with a less stalker-like term. It is interesting sometimes to see who people are following, though. Tells you a little bit about where they're coming from.
As far as being near the top of the most followed list, you belong there. Your comments and posts are always thoughtful and well-reasoned.
November 12, 2008 10:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
if not a little pedantic and over-ponderous!
Thanks anyway
November 12, 2008 1:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
What doesn't often get recommended is negativity
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I disagree. There's no quicker way to the rec list than negativity. One just has be on the right side, to know who to be negative about. Then the most irrelevant insults or nastiest lies are perfectly acceptable.
November 11, 2008 11:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, shut up. What the hell do you know? Dick flapper.
I kiiiid, I kiiiiid!!!
November 12, 2008 10:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
You're a prime example of someone who spends most of his time here being negative yet you're popular. Most of your comments are designed to interrupt the flow of conversation and to insult people. Its puerile and its boring.
November 12, 2008 1:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hahahaha! And yet you couldn't resist responding. Just ignore me. I won't go away, but just ignore me anyway. And maybe quit taking yourself so damn seriously.
And actually "most" of my comments aren't negative. You're just being selective.
November 12, 2008 1:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe you'll end up like the guy who spent so much time at TPM his old lady started balling some guy she met on the bus. Can you even imagine how funny I find that idea?
November 12, 2008 8:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, I can. But I'm sure it doesn't take much to amuse you.
November 12, 2008 10:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
I just thought of another quality that garners recs from me. It is courage. Some of the essays I have read here took some courage to write, the writer exposed parts of their inner spiritual or emotional being...those core things that make us who we are. Reading those posts is a wonderful experience...like watching To Kill A Mockingbird, or Man for All Seasons, you get a glimpse of a moral order and beauty resident in us, that brings forth deep appreciation.
November 11, 2008 10:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
I love you, Lux! And I do agree that by and large negativity does not get recommended. And positivity or an ability to post thoughtfully and genuinely and to also at times lift the spirits of those around you are highly valued here. And yours is one such voice.
Life is not fair. There are many unsung heroes and heroines. And I too would just as soon get rid of the system that ended up with a list in order of being followed. The funny thing is that I'm following just about everybody on that list and it's convenient to have such a list. And if we stopped following altogether, then that list would disappear as an alternative to our own personal lists. So.... it's a conundrum.
November 12, 2008 1:27 AM | Reply | Permalink
You are so nice!!!!!
It is a problem. First time visitors here, put up their posts with high aspirations, just to see them disappear with no evidence of ever being read! It always tugs my heartstrings to see it happen.
I don't want to rec automatically any new poster that comes along, but maybe the software could be tweaked to give a new poster category with a lifespan on that category about equiv to the rec list. THis would only be for first time posts. All others would join the democratic mix.
This way the new people would get some time in the sun and after that take their chances like everyone else.
November 12, 2008 5:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
I love Miles but he could be a supreme jerk. The public humiliation of a sideman is not the action of heroes.
And there is not a composer or musician in the world that actually wants to avoid reward. Avoid enough reward and you have to get a day job, with little time or energy left for creating. So the sideman fell into the trap Miles had set up for him, and it would have served Miles right if the audience had honored him by withholding all applause after that event.
And the only final test for quality is popularity, of the long-term, broad-based kind. Like Beethoven, who still sells tickets. He isn't a good programming choice because music education teachers told people he's a genius. He's good because the rest of the world agrees he is.
November 12, 2008 9:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
I saw Miles at the Guthrie Theater in Minneapolis back in his funky jazz days. He was playing his horn through a wah-wah pedal, and there was something wrong with the pedal. He'd play a note and hit the pedal, then play another note, then kick the pedal around a bit. Then play another note. The pedal had a bad pot, and it kept going, "Kwak, kwak, kwak". After about five minutes of fucking around, Miles gave the pedal one last kick and walked off the stage, never to return. Some concert.
November 12, 2008 9:49 AM | Reply | Permalink
I read a story about Davis being approached during a break by two young, white male fans wanting his autograph. They tried to engage him in conversation, asking how he developed such a great 'embouchure' (how one positions the mouthpiece on the lips). He drily replied that it was from sucking off little white boys. OTOH, I read another story about Davis stepping outside a club for some fresh air and being beaten up by white cops.
November 12, 2008 10:33 AM | Reply | Permalink
Some lessons are hard to learn and hard to teach. No young musician who has reached the level of technical ability necessary to be considered for a place in a Miles Davis band could be ignorant of his goals. If he somehow didn't learn it before joining the band I'm sure Miles explained it to him before he was hired and in rehearsals. Miles work in the later years of his life was to take young technically proficient musicians and teach them about jazz improvisation. If the bassist didn't want to learn, why did he join that band?
There are plenty of bands that don't strive to be on the cutting edge of jazz that a young bassist with that level of technical proficiency could work for. For that matter he could have played in some rock band where the audience really claps and cheers or a country band and not have had to bother spending all those hours alone in a room practicing. All that time spent learning his craft could have been better spent looking for girls or playing video games.
November 12, 2008 1:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Some lessons are hard to learn and hard to teach. No young musician who has reached the level of technical ability necessary to be considered for a place in a Miles Davis band could be ignorant of his goals. If he somehow didn't learn it before joining the band I'm sure Miles explained it to him before he was hired and in rehearsals. Miles work in the later years of his life was to take young technically proficient musicians and teach them about jazz improvisation. If the bassist didn't want to learn, why did he join that band?
There are plenty of bands that don't strive to be on the cutting edge of jazz that a young bassist with that level of technical proficiency could work for. For that matter he could have played in some rock band where the audience really claps and cheers or a country band and not have had to bother spending all those hours alone in a room practicing. All that time spent learning his craft could have been better spent looking for girls or playing video games.
November 12, 2008 1:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Something tells me you know a lot more about video games than you do about being in a band.
November 12, 2008 5:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Miles was one of the most beautiful musicians ever to grace this world, and he was also a world-class agitator who loved to shock. I'll never forget an interview with Miles that I read, in which the subject turned to Wynton Marsalis' classical music albums. Miles opined that "White people should get down on their knees and suck Wynton's dick for playing their old dead music."
November 12, 2008 2:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
The public humiliation of a sideman is not the action of heroes.
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It all depends on how you interpret the story. I didn't see anyone publicly humiliated but if someone was, imo, it was the audience.
November 12, 2008 2:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, well that's okay. They only pay the bills, after all.
November 12, 2008 5:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've played in jazz combos, tried to run one, know a bit about the music biz, having been in it since the 60s.
Miles was a genius,m and an asshole. I never tire of listening to him. And he was notorious for for weirdly disrespectful shit like leaving th bandstand to have a drink while his sidemen soloed. There was at least one concert where he held up an applause sign, followed by a "thank you" sign.
Being a performer is weird, somewhere between a monk and a prostitute. But public shaming of the bass player is what that particular event yielded. It was Miles' responsibility to choose his sideman, or shut up and accept what a promoter found for him.
Back to quality, the example is not ideal, but I get the point.
November 12, 2008 6:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
You know, a guy who's capable of putting out brilliant work like Kind Of Blue or In A Silent Way or A Tribute To Jack Johnson and who then comes out with a cynical, heinous piece of crap like Time After Time is bound to be a bit complicated, don't you think? :)
November 12, 2008 6:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
You don't get it and don't expect you to. You who play to the mob for the applause. One cannot understand and there by be competent to judge Miles Davis by his recordings. I used to be a trumpet player and had most of his albums. I never thought he deserved to be called great based on those albums. It wasn't until I saw him live that I understood what he was doing.
Miles has often said his albums are not his music. They're like a libretto. You read the libretto to help understand the opera but the libretto is not the opera. If one is going to a Miles Davis concert it will help to understand the concert if you've listened to his latest album. But like a libretto the album is not what Miles was doing musically at that time, it was just an aid to understanding it.
The concert I referenced with the story above was during his "Time After Time" period and that Cindy Lauper tune was one that he played that night. They spent over an hour exploring the musical possibilities in that one song. The two improvisations were 25 to 30 minutes long each. As they moved though the improvisations the backup totally changed the chordal structure to more and more complicated forms all the while maintaining the melody that rested upon that foundation. In other words the melody still fit with in the steadily more complicated underlying structure. The improviser had to fit his solo over this increasingly complicated structure while at the same time his own solo consisted of notes flying out at Charlie Parker speed.
I've seen more jazz concerts than I can count from old school artists like Lionel Hampton and Dizzy to avant garde artists like Steve Lacy. But that night stands out as the most incredible concert I've ever been to.
November 12, 2008 7:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Leave the pussy hare alone, man. He thinks he's a musician.
November 12, 2008 8:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'll acknowledge your experience in hearing live performance. Don't consider me as playing to the mob, but I would guess Mozart liked to sell tickets.
If the routine was rehearsed, it's a different story, of course.
November 12, 2008 9:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
The comment you refer to was directed at dorf. It wasn't directed at you nor would I consider it appropriate to say something like that to you. I do not see you as playing to the mob here. I respect your opinions though I have some disagreements with them
November 12, 2008 10:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bitterness really becomes you.
November 12, 2008 10:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Glad to hear you enjoyed yourself. But how do you know I didn't see the same tour?
And how do you know what I know about music, or what I don't know? I'll tell you what you know about what I know: you don't.
I'm familiar with the tradition: you pick some crappy pop song and then you use it as a basis to show that you can play over anything. It's a fun game. Coltrane did it with "Favorite Things", Miles did it with "Time After Time", Oliver Nelson did it with "Hoe Down", I've done it with Irish reels and one band I was in covered the Woody Woodpecker theme, which happens to be a great bebop tune. But to claim that the recordings don't matter is sort of dumb, don't you think? Did you see the Bitches Brew tour? I did. And without Teo Macero there to cut the tape into tiny little pieces, it didn't come across. Not at all. Recordings are one thing. Live concerts are another. But neither one is superior to the other. I can hum every note of every solo on "Kind Of Blue", and I don't need to hear it live to love every note. I learned a ton from playing over those changes when I was first learning to play.
Here's a fact: Miles did some great work. And you clearly witnessed a great performance. But "Time After Time" is far from the pinnacle of Miles' career. I rather think it was the nadir.
November 12, 2008 10:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
But to claim that the recordings don't matter is sort of dumb, don't you think?
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Neither I nor Miles Davis ever claimed the recordings don't matter. The libretto metaphor was not mine but a paraphrasing of Miles' own words. When I began to see him in concert I understood what he was talking about.
The more a jazz musician focuses on improvisation the less their albums reflect the depth of their ability or their contribution to musical development. At the least because an improvisation at a concert is usually several times longer than an improvisation on an album.
Coltrane chose "My Favorite Things" not as some lark or to pander to the popular but because it was a very good vehicle to explore alternative modes and the harmonies derived from them other than the ionian and aeolian modes that dominated western music up to that time. There is certainly valid arguments to be made as to how successful he was, whether he ascended to a complexity that only the most educated listener could understand or descended into chaos. But to suggest he picked it to prove he could play over anything is asinine.
One might thing that the fact that "Naima" and My Favorite Things" were the two charts that he recorded early in his career and continued to record and perform until his death might give you a clue that you needed to look closer. But you're not too bright to be able to pick up clues. "My Favorite Things" was recorded nearly two dozen times through all his incarnations as he moved deeper and deeper into the avant garde.
But I really don't want to continue this discussion because quite frankly I don't like you. I'm totally burned out on your nastiness, not to me as we have rarely interacted, but to other people here. It doesn't even have the justification of Jacob's insults, which are only a small part of intellectually powerful and substantial arguments on important topics. Your insults and nastiness towards Seaton and others who do not toe the party line make no attempt at even a perfunctory analysis of the subject. They are nothing but ad hominem attacks.
November 12, 2008 11:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, well that's been pretty obvious all along. But your pettiness and your problems dealing with your own anger are yours to deal with. They don't affect me in the slightest. And I can assure you that your own hypocritical, self-righteous nastiness belongs to you alone. Grow the hell up, oceankat.
November 13, 2008 3:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
I just spent some time listening to a couple versions, just to refresh my memory. You're wrong. It's a really lousy vehicle. I think the reason Coltrane returned to it so many times is because he kept hoping to find something that wasn't there. It's pretty slim pickin's, and I think Coltrane went as far as he needed to in utterly exhausting the non-possibilities. And it was most definitely pandering--very successful pandering, in fact. Unfortunately for Coltrane, My Favorite Things ended up being one of his most popular and most requested tunes. It was the tune that introduced Coltrane to the general public and made him acceptable to the masses. But it's hardly one of his greatest works.
Just a technical note: From a historical perspective, you've got the modal thing exactly backwards. The modal system originated in the 9th century, but by the late 17th century, the key-based scalar approach that's common today had almost completely superseded the modal way of thinking. Coltane's experiments were a return to thinking in terms of modes rather than scales--not the other way around. Until jazz musicians and impressionist composers revisited the modal approach in the 20th century, most musicians and writers were generally thinking in terms of scales, not modes. The experiments with modalism arose out of boredom with the limitations of the standard (and overworked) major/harmonic minor solutions that had dominated jazz for so long.
November 13, 2008 4:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
One other point and then I'm off this: My Favorite Things was recorded precisely once in the studio, during the year that Coltrane was signed to Atlantic Records. There were no alternate takes, and he never again recorded a studio version. The other versions you're referring to were live recordings, mostly released by Norman Granz on his Pablo label. Granz was the ultimate panderer in the world of jazz. He's the guy responsible for "Charlie Parker with Strings"--one of the great panders of all time. Granz knew he had a jazz hit in My Favorite Things, and he did his best to cash in.
If you're under the impression that Coltrane recorded My Favorite Things "early in his career", I'd say you've missed out on a lot of great music, including all of the stuff he did with Miles and Thelonious Monk in the '50s. Coltrane recorded My Favorite Things in 1961. That's hardly early in his career.
If you're going to give people shit about music, at least try to know what the hell you're talking about.
November 13, 2008 5:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, hell. I thought I was off it, but I started Googling articles about Coltrane and I found this great quote from a piece by jazz critic extraordinaire Stanley Crouch:
"Part of the Coltrane myth is that he had no interest in entertainment and did not submit to its parameters. He is thought to have been too involved with his art to pay attention to what the club owners or the audiences wanted. This is not exactly true. Yes, he did play very long performances that would go beyond the 45-minute sets that most bands played. But one Friday night, when I asked him if he would play "Impressions," he told me: "Well, little brother, I would like to, but this is a money night and I have to play 'My Favorite Things' every set or the club owner and the customers will not be very happy. But if I get a chance, I'll play it for you."
So much for mythology.
http://www.slate.com/id/2137816/
November 13, 2008 5:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
All gurus, teachers, leaders have feet of clay. Miles could be a real asshole at times but that doesn't discount the valuable lessons he taught or the . I think he taught a very necessary lesson in a very low key way. A simple demonstration of the value of applause. You see humiliation. We'll just have to disagree on that.
November 12, 2008 10:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks oceankat for a great Miles story! And you're certainly right that popularity and quality are not synonymous.
November 12, 2008 2:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Amusing to see you still give a fuck about this place, kat.
November 12, 2008 3:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oceankat, you're more popular than you think as your post winds it's way slowly but surely up to its rightful place at the top of the most recommended list. Gosh, this place would have real problems if we didn't have folks like you writing posts. Nice work.
November 12, 2008 4:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks Bruce, I'm not worried about my popularity or lack of. I'm not a very prolific blogger so it doesn't matter much if my sporadic posts fall quickly into the memory hole. I've always had this tendency to stand up for the underdog, in this case the outcast voices here. I get particularly irked when people try to throw a lack of rec's into someone's face, as if saying you're not popular is a good criterion for judging something or someone.
November 12, 2008 5:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
I use some different reasons to Rec (beyond the perfectly good reasons people set out above.) Sometimes I Rec:
Because a post's TOPIC is worth discussing further, even if the post itself isn't great... Because I suspect the COMMENTS will rev up higher than the initial post... Because it's a MARGINAL voice, and the Me Too stuff doesn't add much value in most cases... Because of just ONE GREAT LINE, which made me laugh or think... Because Des paid me to...
Right now, TPM is going through an entirely predictable post-election period, during which a lot of good voices simply stepped back from the fray. It's tough for people to post stuff during a time like that, where any opinion gets weighed by whether or not it's at variance from the views of the candidate. It's still tough today, as people raising different views tend to get the "let's just trust Obama" or "he isn't even in office yet" response. I understand that response, but we could all easily take that as a GIVEN, and continue thinking for ourselves, working out our views, floating ideas. Somehow, I doubt our discussions will deeply undermine the new Administration.
And truth is, this is usually the BEST time to create new ideas, put then forward in new ways, make a case, build support. Which is why we should all be cranking up the engines on the new stuff & Rec'ing posters headed in that direction, rather than trying to force these pages into some sort of mold.
Otherwise, popularity ain't quality. Nor is unpopularity. I haven't got much to add to that discussion. Though it sure would be nice to not see mini news-hits or anti-Palin screeds or highest level 'battle of the abstractions' eat up too much space. TPM's reader posts have to raise their game a few notches, starting fairly soon I suspect, because the ra-ra drove out a fair number of people, and a lot will leave as the election fades, nd that's leaving things a bit thin on the ground. But that could just be me being grumpy, or out of touch. Evidence? By far, the most Rec's I ever got was for a piece on... Canadian politics. I'm thankful for the sympathy Recs and all, but....
And OC. Miles may be great, but let's face it, he's no Neil Young. ;-)
November 12, 2008 4:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry. OC shoulda been OK, for Oceankat.
I won't even bother trying to chase down the other screwball spellings in that comment. Sad, really.
November 12, 2008 4:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well Quinn, one of the computer nerds here hacked into my account, got my name and some dirty information about me. A good portion of my rec's are based on blackmail. I'm guessing there's a group of us here that he's got under his thumb. Its really the only explanation why some posts make it to the rec list.
November 12, 2008 9:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Neil Young is God-like. His solo in "Cinnamon Girl" is still one of the greatest solos ever recorded. And no, I'm not kidding.
Personally, I kinda like the mini news hits. I often find stuff through those quickie posts that I never would have seen otherwise.
November 12, 2008 11:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
Cinnamon Girl, Down By The River & Cowgirl In The Sand. Neil wrote those in one weekend, while sick with a fever of 103. Ok ok, he's not God, but that was a damn fine weekend.
Dylan was just in town. Showed up in a cab, a few streets down from here, hidden under shades & hat. Guy's out raking the last leaves, starts chatting with Dylan, doesn't recognize him at first. Dylan asks if he lives in this house (points at it), asks if it was the house Neil Young grew up in (it was), asks if he could come inside & look around (yes.) Tours the whole place, bedroom, kitchen, laundry room. By then, the guy has recognized Dylan, said he spent the longest just sitting in the laundry room, thinking.
Neil's from Weird. Dylan's the Rings Around Weird.
November 13, 2008 1:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Rec!
November 12, 2008 4:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Interesting that the sidebar, as of this afternoon, lists both the number of recommendations and the number of comments. That's a nice addition - it lets readers know at a glance just how much interest each post is generating, and rewards lively discussions as well as consensus.
November 12, 2008 4:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
No popular people allowed! :)
November 12, 2008 5:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, that was my little group of outcast's motto in high school!
November 12, 2008 6:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Coincidence...... or clear evidence that management is hanging on my every word? ;)
November 12, 2008 8:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Popluarity on the interent=complete and utter waste of life. Who theheck positions themself to be popular with people over the interner? I appreciate each and every one of you guys but some people take this crap much too seriously.
November 12, 2008 5:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Popularity on the internet can translate into a living, supporting family, etc. Since that's the point of life (the future), it's not pointless.
November 12, 2008 9:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
I don't think so Tom. That may be a point of life but I don't think its the point nor even the most important point.
It seems likely you're aware of the many discussion about the conflict between artistic integrity and economic necessity. Its a knife's edge path to walk. Fall to far to art's side and the question is moot as one will not have the time or money to create anything artistic to question the integrity of.
But there's a kind of soul sickness that comes from falling to the other side as well. To see one's life's promise and abilities unrealized, stunted to a lower or lowest common denominator for money is death of the spirit for those who dream and vision.
The point of life is to manifest whatever that unique gift is that each of us carries into its fullest flowering. Making money is not the point. Its sometimes the reward, sometimes the obstacle, sometimes the destroyer of the dream.
November 12, 2008 10:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oceankat. Your last two paragraphs - worth more than anything any of us wrote here today.
Figures you'd hold it back 'til the post had rolled past 24 hours. Just us drunks in the balcony hangin' round. Worth the show.
Thanks.
November 13, 2008 1:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
Gotta agree. Some excellent, thoughtful and clearly heartfelt writing.
November 13, 2008 1:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
(blushes) Thanks, getting back to popularity. An occasional acknowledgment from you and a small number of others here that I've come to respect means more to me than a hundred rec's.
At any rate, I'm heading out to visit my parents in the next few hours and will not have internet access for about a week. If you hold back any of your great stuff for about a week I'd appreciate it.
November 13, 2008 3:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Someday I'd like to hear all you jazz-dudes playing together. Yeah, yeah, it'd be rough for a while.
But nothing compared to my singing. Or scatting. Or whatever it is that jazz singers do. And hey! Maybe I could duet... with Jacob.
We could sell 'em cd's, on the promise that we'd stop. Ahhhhh, business savvy meets artistic integrity. ;-)
November 13, 2008 4:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
That is purest wisdom, Oceankat. Much recommended.
November 13, 2008 12:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
Second, third, etc. I'm in total agreement.
November 13, 2008 6:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Every now and again, I think it's a shame that we can't recommend comments, as well as posts.
November 13, 2008 6:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for the amazing story and comments, oceankat. I have always appreciated your perspective, and now I know it's because you're an artist. Hadn't figured that out before. I'm curious if you are self-taught or formally trained, but of course you don't have to answer that if you don't want to.
I have absolutely no music training, but I am crazy about Harry James and Louis Armstrong. ;-)
November 13, 2008 10:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
I don't mind telling but its not really very interesting.
Like thousands of kids I started playing trumpet in elementary school. My father was a sax player in local dance bands in his teens and a jazz lover. My sisters and I were all firmly "encouraged" to play some instrument. When it was clear that I would stick with the trumpet and not switch to another instrument my parents found the best teacher our little community offered. He was average as a teacher and classical in orientation. But my father turned me onto jazz and mostly we listened to that in our house.
I was a decent musician, not great, and could find enough work. When I was about 26 I realized that I didn't have the dedication to reach for the top and consequently I would always be playing music I didn't much like for money to live on while playing the music I did like for pennies or nothing. So I moved on to do other things.
Sometimes that makes me sad, like now, when I think about it. I had some potential and I loved to play and especially improvise. But it wasn't just a realization it was a choice. There were so many other things I wanted to do that I wouldn't have time to if I focused on music as I would have to. I've done a lot of unusual things with my life. I didn't live a life of quiet desperation tied to some silly job after I stopped playing. I made the right choice and I'm glad I made it.
See you in about a week.
November 13, 2008 4:18 PM | Reply | Permalink