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Who do we think we are? And what are we becoming? (science link-fest)


Mostly neuroscience stuff. Enjoy.

  • Our brains are plastic - in a good way (a little neuroplasticity refresher)
  • But we don't really think with our brains, we think with our body.
  • They think they can see when you will be guilty: preemptive punishment, anyone? (Minority Report redux)

Any suggested further readings most welcome in comments...


53 Comments

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Ok we are just going to go one at a time while I take care of Camelot and the GREAT RACE.

I thought free will was about a porpoise or maybe a dolphin.If the NYT really thought there was free will shy do you need a MBA at Harvard after your journalism degree at Yale with a recommendation from Skull & Bones?

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And I thought Free Willy was a penis give-away... these things are so confusing.

(don't give away the Nashorse conclusion to me - haven't gotten around to my daily reading yet. Got my money on Moshe...)

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hahahahhahaha I am not that kind of a..er..whatever

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Thanks Obey! Great stuff.

Here's my contribution:
http://scienceblogs.com/insolence/2009/02/will_2009_be_a_very_bad_year_for_antivac.php

It is for those who--because of ignorant fear mongers like Jenny McCarthy and Robert Kennedy Jr.--might find themselves to "on the fence" regarding vaccinations for their kids.

The long and the short of it? Vaccinate your goddamn kids, people!

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Thanks for that link Loki! bookmarked!!

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Great Obey!

This has a Butterflies and Wheels flavor to it. I like it! I like it a LOT.

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Bwak - always glad to please the chicken! :0)

Great link btw!! I had never heard of it. I'm so ignorant.

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nuh uh.

For that, you need a chicken brain, and I can't share. Union rulez.

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You know, I was really thinking Arts & Letters. But glad you enjoyed the Butterflies.

=D


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Oh, I had missed this. I like this one
http://www.thenewatlantis.com/publications/why-minds-are-not-like-computers
very much!

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Ok now Adobe makes we wait several nanoseconds, am I free to go elsewhere? no. All repubs cheat so that must mean they do not believe in free will and besides they send out propaganda all day long so they could not possibly believe that if the electorate, at least the electorate that bothered to vote, would not be able to just vote upon their conclusions after listening to all the evidence, then they could never believe in free will.

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Dick - this comment has me thinking (it hurts...). On the one hand they don't treat the people as if they have free will, and the only ones they actually still convince are those most opposed to any natural determinist account of who we are. Their dogmatic denial of determinism has removed their freedom... THey are predetermined irreflective automatons, and are so because of their anti-deterministic beliefs. (is there any way to say this non-paradoxically?!)

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No sensible engineer would have designed things this way. Why design fancy machinery for making long-term goals if you're not going to use it? Yet the brain is structured such that the more tired, stressed or distracted we are, the less likely we are to use our forebrains and the more likely to lean back on the time-tested but shortsighted machinery we've inherited from our ancestors.


Who said God is sensible? Cognitive dissonance is easily answered by the following note from Libertine yesterday who received my award:

The shortest distance between two points is not a straight line, but the path of least resistance.

This is why many so-called x catholics leave the church. I am horney, therefore I am. Or at least I am happy if I break a few laws.

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"No sensible engineer would have designed things this way."
- well maybe a sensible engineer, but who was bored and didn't want sensible creatures...

As for the church, I've never understood their unhealthy obsession with horniness. And I mean both the protection of pedophiles and the suppression of sex for everyone else. I could almost handle the second without the first, but both together just really annoys me.

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Awesome Obey-Dude. Liked the ones on the body, and kids learning and "Kluge: The Haphazard Construction of the Human Mind" just for starters. Will check in later to read some more, and see what people are hauling in.

In the meantime, Nova Scotian-style learning methods sweep the nation. We'll educate you American Monsters yet.

;-)

(P.S. Actually, I prefer the monsters. But you back yer local gals, eh?)

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Oh yeah. Hope Bwak notices the shout out to her people!

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Yez. Sesame Street. Fargin' riot.

=D

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Thanks Q - The 'digital natives' is the closest I have found to what you've been talking about. If you got more/better, do give some link-love. (the Marcus video is worth the watch if you have the time).

Love the Feist! Didn't know she was Canadian, but then the good ones always are...

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While I found the original Carr piece "Is Google Making Us Stupider" to be quite astoundingly stupid itself, the debate on it raises issue after issue that we've been discussing. The Wiki on it is quite good and has great links. Here.

I did my undergrad thesis on the impact of technologies on our minds, social organization and political forms, and absolutely adored the field. From the book to the clock to typewriters and cars and tv's and computers, I found it fascinating. And now... 25 years on, to see the neuroscience has come on so much; to see the "computer" spin out to the "internet"; to get to explore how both reading and the book changes our brains, and then how this new internet thingie is changing it again; it's great stuff. I won't ramble on this topic tonight, because my comment would be about 5 times longer than my usual thread-chokers, but mostly... thanks Obey, and Dick, for opening some of these discussions out. Brain food. Yummy.

And almost as good as brownies. ;-)

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Really a fine exposition Obey. A couple of serious? points

Runny would stand at his desk. He did not believe in sitting down during working hours.

If one comes to a decision standing or sitting or leaning or...whatever... and it works out; that person will remember and the next time it is time to make a decision, he will act the same; he will assume the same pose...

Just a placebo effect.

MRI's actually demonstrating what you are thinking.
Of course the CIA would be interested in that. So would Coke and Pepsi.

Beta blockers actually lessening someone's fears. Really interesting. Give me some.

The key to a good con is not that you trust the con but that you thing you trust him.

Really have me thinking. And you have gotten a good reaction from this Obey.

Like I said before, you seem to be on a new track, a new type of poetry. Going from article to article. In a pattern.

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Yeah - some of the body-thought evidence is a bit flimsy. But some other things like -

"A study led by John Cacioppo, director of the Center for Cognitive and Social Neuroscience at the University of Chicago, found that subjects (all non-Chinese speakers) shown a series of Chinese ideographs while either pushing down or pulling up on a table in front of them will say they prefer the ideographs they saw when pulling upward over the ones they saw while pushing downward. Work by Beilock and Holt found that expert typists, when shown pairs of two-letter combinations and told to pick their favorite, tend to pick the pairs that are easier to type - without being able to explain why they did so."

- I quite like. There are all these physical cues that influence our thinking without us noticing. It ties into how the suppression of certain physical symptoms of emotion - heart rate in the case of beta-blockers, oxytocin hormone levels for trust - even when they have nothing to do with the situation, have an effect on how we evaluate it. (all the links are linked... :0)

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Dick. A couple of links for you in particular, because you're a Homo Erectus fan, as well as a fan of old words.

Small Talk In The Stone Age.

And The Economist On What's Cooking.

Both really good fun.

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Q, I do not have it any more but the single most important anthropological book in the last 60 years is The Raw and the Cooked by Claude Levi Straus, cousin to the jean maker, and the originator of Structural Anthropology.

That is why the supposition that Homo Erectus used fire, made fire 800,000 years ago is of such import to me. Coinciding with a transmigration involving three continents; the entire old world.

No matter what the human being eats, the food has to be prepared. It has to be brought from nature into culture. Oh, you cannot pick an apple and simply eat it. you must wash it first or you will become sick or die.

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What are we becoming?

First there was blogging. (no limitations)

Then there was microblogging (twitter, max 140 characters)

Then there was nanoblogging (nanoblogg.se, max 1 word)

Next, there will be quantablogging, blogging at the subatomic level, max 140 quarks.

Are we going the wrong way?

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idk

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mn

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Âż

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!

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♪

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♬

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.

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WTF?

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idk

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Dang it. I'm always late to the fun parts. Oh, well.

^5's everybody!

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I just the jokes running after you and in reply to you. Good points.

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and good notes and punctuation marks as well!! have to think this over...

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Been working on my post all day. I'm gonna have to save this for later. And some of it could fit well with my post. So I may just insert a link to your blog. I need some dinner.....

Kudos on what you're doing here!

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An awful lot here. But of course we're waiting for you, the expert, to interpret it all for us. Or are we part of an experiment? You've given us info and then you're gonna see what we do for the next little while, what comments we make and so on?

What I notice is that research finds things out. And then there is speculation about what the meaning is of what has been found. Round and round it goes...

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What does this stuff mean? and what do I mean by it?

I guess I tried to post a collection of stuff that raises an important and urgent set of questions - summed up a bit awkwardly in the title. 'Important' because, of all the technological advances of the past, what is happening now is very different. Steam, combustion, IT, internet, all these things give us new increased powers to affect our environment and gather information about it. As Q says, it does change the way our mind works in some ways, but it changes 'us' only in little incremental ways. The revolution going on now is one involving technology to directly intervene and mold our Selves. Neuroscience, genetics, AI, these things are moving at an incredibly fast pace. What was being discovered and imagined three years ago is rudimentary to what is being done now, research articles are needing to get updated every three or four weeks. And it's an 'urgent' set of questions because of the rapid way in which these technologies are getting applied without a whole lot of understanding of them - the applications in the justice system and warfare, for instance.

As for 'experts' - that almost makes me laugh. There are none. The closest we have are perhaps some science pundits who do some half-assed airy fairy big picture stuff. Or the kind of frauds Sokal was dealing with: people with no understanding or interest in the science, but just liked to use this stuff for wild and evocative metaphors for the state of Man and Society.

What we have is a bunch of extremely bright technically competent scientists who have no idea or interest in the broader effects or meaning of what they are doing. And on the other side a general population which has not even begun to grapple with what these things 'mean' (look at what a little reminder about determinism does to people's behaviour...).

Some things are happening - there is a little bit of a perception from government and so on, that we need to grapple with these things. And I've been a bit involved in the policy papers on these things (as a little foot-soldier), but only just enough to see that people really don't have a clue, and the government doesn't really care. When they do care, it is for briefings like the one requested by the Intelligence community. just goes to show...

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I'm really enjoying that "Edge" site, just for fairly brief & reasonably popular discussions by people, some of whom are expert, but most of whom seem to want to have a wider social debate.

Their annual question sections were fun, as was the discussion around the Carr article. I'll have to swim in it a bit more, but for bite-sized intros, where experts (and pseudo-experts!) get to play, it's worth a spin.

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I'm watching the Enriques talk on that ted site:
http://www.ted.com/talks/juan_enriquez_shares_mindboggling_new_science.html

It's hilarious!! It starts with a great take on the banking crisis and ties it to how all these new neuro and AI technologies will drive the economy coming out of the crisis. Thanks Q!

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I'm watching the Enriques talk on that ted site:
http://www.ted.com/talks/juan_enriquez_shares_mindboggling_new_science.html

It's hilarious!! It starts with a great take on the banking crisis and ties it to how all these new neuro and AI technologies will drive the economy coming out of the crisis. Thanks Q!

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Q- this stuff is great. Could you point me to what you consider the best thinking on the 'ethical' - broadly conceived - implications of this kind of technology?

I've seen some stuff in the legal philosophy literature that's serious but superficial. not much else...

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ps. I was referring to this kind of stuff:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=neuroscience-and-the-law

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It's embarrassing, because I hardly follow the debates around the "ethics" of these things. Gawd, TheraP's gonna come down here and whump me for being such a bad Ethics student! ;-)

Oddly, the prof who turned me onto half these things was... an Ethics prof. He just gave us the most fascinating books, and then... we'd work the ethics out of them.

My trajectory tends to be how these techs change us (and vie-versa), in terms of brains and then social organization and especially, economics and politics. But the medical and criminal and legal issues... I got nuthin'!

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Q - I wasn't necessarily looking for the legal, medical ethics stuff. I was thinking of something more basic, and at the same time harder. And its something I can't really formulate in normal English - from which I should probably infer it's meaningless anyway.

It's related to some of your comments about Dick's cavemen- your imagining 'what it was like' to be in the middle of the chaotic evolutionary process. There's a similar kind of imagination game to be played with the future decades and the revolution in these AI- and neuro-sciences.

I'm not claiming people are going to go nuts or anything. But, most of the time, when you hear the scientists talk about 'what it will be like' they just paint a picture of us doing new and wonderful things in a new and wonderful environment. It's still us, we're just doing something different.

And that picture seems wrong. When the various brain and body functions become more and more manipulable - prosthetics, hormone stimulation, deep brain stimulation of various sorts, brain emulation - it's not just going to be fun new stuff to play with, it's going to fundamentally change how we view ourselves and others.

For one thing, I'm attached to my body parts (..i mean emotionally). I have a certain way of looking at them, that I won't have for artificial body parts (I imagine). But if you hook artificial body parts fully up to my nervous system, then that perceived border between natural and artificial fades. Now imagine - well don't imagine, we're already starting to do it - we hook a fully paralyzed person up to a computer which is functionally able to perform most of the tasks of an ordinary human body, with 'pain' sensors, kinaesthetic sensors, etc. How does that person perceive that computer - as part of himself?

Then look at our attitude to robots in general - artificial mechanical objects. WE now have an uneasy cognitive dissonance when dealing with very humanoid robots. But that is because we're not conceptually at ease with seeing an overlap between artificial beings and things we regard as 'people'. People are things we interact with on an interpersonal basis: we get mad, care for, apologize to, understand, empathize with, etc. Artificial objects we take back to the store to get fixed, or throw out. We're used to a dichotomy between seeing things as tools to manipulate which fit into the causal order of things, and seeing things as persons - into whose minds we project ourselves, with whom we 'identify' with. That dichotomy starts to fade as well.

Then look at our attitudes to ourselves - our own minds. Sure, now we can already do some manipulation. But we take it as given that there is some bottom level ground floor which is not manipulable or optional - things without which we couldn't imagine being the person we are (our memories, our core values...). And that grounds our sense of self. But if you make more and more things optional - feelings, desires, beliefs, cares, memories, thought-processes - that's going to grind away at the sense of self as well. It's no longer just a funny theoretical construct to think of ourselves as turtles all the way down, or 'onions', or Russian dolls, just layer after layer. It becomes a reality to be dealt with. What is it like to literally stand before choices about the basic make-up of your mind like we now stand before snack-distributors?

Take our last two thousand years of cognitive dissonance involving seeing ourselves as predetermined natural objects and seeing ourselves as persons. We're pretty good at jumping from one perspective to the other. Mostly spending our time at the second perspective. It's something we can deal with. Then expand the number of circumstances in which it becomes useful/necessary to see ourselves as just these natural objects - cell-based brain organs (or partially cell-based...) as we tinker with little malfunctions here and there, like a beloved antique car in the garage. What the hell does that kind of perspective, when generalized, look like from the inside?

I'll stop there. I'm just going through the Quinn thought experiment. And That is what I meant by 'ethical' in the broad sense: what will it be like to live in that world? It's not so much a question of ethical 'problems' - as in what lies within the bounds of moral norms. It is about what happens to the very idea of moral norms, of the idea of persons who see themselves as bound, in their relationship to themselves and others, to those moral norms, in this new world. This is the bit I find fascinating and daunting. More interesting than what the CIA/courts/medicine may try to do with this technology.

My brain is much too small to try to get around issues like this, (and I'm not good at formulating them sensibly and briefly) but I find them interesting to think about. And, yes, I'd very much like another thread-choker on these kinds of tech-issues from you, not necessarily here, but eventually...

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Years ago, I pursued all this, but only had the library stacks for my sources. One wave (circa 81-83) of that reading was on technology, and how it changed us. Mumford, Ellul, Jerry Mander, economic historians, Roszak, Marx, and a guy I really focussed on - as computers were revving up - Joseph Weizenbaum. They had very little neuro-stuff to support them, but used history, anthropology, drug use, religion, etc.

What I looked at a lot was how things we began to use as "prosthetics" actually shifted the balance across our senses. A tv or film, for instance, amongst millions of other things they do, turns our neck for us, focusses out eyes where it wants - disengaging our bodies in interesting ways. Driving in a car and "seeing" a countryside is utterly different than walking through it. Smell and sound shrinks, for instance. But replacing and extending - these positive terms - some senses (cars being like longer legs) also meant shrinking of these other aspects.

Use those techs for 000's of hours, and it changes you. Which is when I stopped with the bibliophilia so many academics had. I started to see the book/text as a very particular technology, that changed our brains and senses in extraordinary ways. Loss of oral capabilities, including memory, being an obvious thing downgraded, as pointed out by Socrates and others. And for me, coming from a strong oral tradition, that was a real and noticeable loss. Weizenbaum was looking at how computers were convincing us that everything was "calculation" - which he opposed to a deeper and wider and wiser way we humans can sometimes function, namely "judgment." Another shift of the mind/society.

Now, I've done NO comprehensive reading on this stuff since then - 1986/87. What I find from time to time are interesting debates triggered by someone's book or article. Going to the Jaynes site or Wiki is useful, because it leads you to a lot of people that have gone on thinking about how the mind changed then and now. That recent Carr debate - Google/Stupid - led to some really interesting debates at the Edge place and others. So I suspect you'll find threads there that draw you off deeper into the stacks til you find what really answers what you're after.

A really useful book for me is the Doidge one. (Which my incredibly sexy and brilliant girlfriend just reminded me, was originally suggested not by my school buds, but by a certain incredibly sexy and brilliant girlfriend. So shout out to the marvelous M!)

Doidge gets into some cool stuff - though it may be pretty much a layman's or secondary source for you. But the cannibalization of parts of the brain - when new sensory input mechanisms were attached, or systems rewired and regenerated - was really interesting. For instance, the people who came to be able to sense through touching their skin - on the back and elsewhere. And then, where the neurons regrew, the brain literally rewired. Some inputs up, some retreating in importance.

What I've been poking at in some of my comments is that I think our brains are ALREADY being massively rewired. And that it's going to knock a lot of people out of balance. You can see a lot of that in the debate around to what degree kids today can't concentrate... have ADD... can't do deep reading or thinking... skim or skate across ideas... have different kinds of social relation ships... etc. Beneath this, they're not just saying that these kids have chosen to lose these functions, or are willful little bastards, but rather the neuro question is... are their brains eroding these capabilities or making these skills of less weight in the overall final integration within our minds?

And my guess is... yes, that is likely to happen. BUT. I'm not convinced the shift to the book and text and libraries and such created a 100% perfect and final brain state.

And what if our culture has produced a whole whack of analogies and images, drilled into us as part of prepping us for READING, laying down mind patterns and connections, that help this process succeed? One of these might well be the idea that we have such a single clear, deep, FOUNDATIONAL "self." Your image of the "ground floor" and then the difficulties if other things are seen as "optional."

Well... what if it's not one ground floor, and then any different perspective or contribution is seen as "optional"... but rather we begin to take MULTIPLICITY as the major truth? That we have multiple ages, feelings, values, etc.... and that they're applied in different settings etc.? We've learned to fear that, as leading to relativism etc. But long ago I began feeling like this was a bogeyman, and that the people babbling against relativism were often THEMSELVES living with multiple takes on life, but just not able to take that fully onboard.

I think this is one of the central changes we're going to have to make - from uni to multi. Another perhaps being... constant change, shift, transition. And another being SOCIAL DIFFERENCE, penetrating right down to the person and what they sense. Like this. Remember the UV rant I went on? Well, the TED video you linked to has buddy talking about implants that will help the blind see. And then... see even better than us. INCLUDING in the UV. The brain books all tell us that to make sense of that, SOME area of the brain is going to have to be mapped to do this. So some other parts are gonna be de-emphasized right there, have less brain map room. On top of that, the new UV input is gonna have to be connected up to central processor world, where its input will compete again against those of other senses. Now in these guys can then see in the UV, other colors are gonna be literally less important. And 3rdly, they're gonna see animals and birds and skies and OUR OWN FACES differently. And sometimes those differences are gonna be regarded as important, and thus drive over the other colors and senses even more. So whole levels at which upgrading one sense is gonna change the others.

How do I DEAL with that? Personally, I think one major analogue that will spring to the fore again is to the times when we lived closer with other species. Animals. Early humans watched and respected the skills and actions of other animals much more than we do. We've worked hard to see all races and sexes as basically running of the same template. Ok, fair enough. But if people have VERY different human senses and skills, and even values, the question becomes are we gonna reject them as "lower" forms of life, the way industrialized man sees animals, (or saw other races and sexes) or... see these other people as amazing other forms, which we are akin to, but also different from?

My take is that I would LOVE it. I can happily say to them - you have the same "human" rights as I do, but I want to learn what YOU'RE learning. Hell, I've always wanted to talk to wolves and bears, so if a person can see or smell or move more like them and come back and tell me about it... cool! Wolverine lives!

The problems that will flow from that are massive, of course. But people forget how they were also massive as we moved to print and the book. Priesthoods using it as a source of power. The oppression that came to those who were non-literate. And then, to those who wanted alternative books/texts. The downplaying of those whose skillsets and brains weren't well-wired for books.

One other thing that I suspect will - must - come out of this. I wasn't joking when I said that a major part of our brain is now... the brains of other people. We all have had thoughts about the way calculators enabled us to not have to do certain mathematical processes. But in a webby world, with Wiki and Google, but also with a million fora, other people's brains are more and more wired into ours. Those who fear we'll all become stupid, and the thing will hurtle toward a LCD have some legit fears. But. It may just be that we come to more and more value the contributions of others, and the diversity of others. Not just in some racial or cultural way, but as in they may have very different interests, values, senses, experiences. As long as those experiences can be in some sense shared with me, does that make me poorer or richer? Isn't this like having a better library? Plus??

This, for me, is my 5th wave of interesting engagement with electronic/web world. First, was my thesis in 82/83. Where I argued that Weizenbaum's fear of computers overhyping "calculation" might actually be sideswiped by the much more interesting "communications" possibilities which people were creating. 2nd, when writing in 86/87. When I wanted, and sketched, constantly, some kind of system that went beyond the book, to hyperlinked text, music and video, historical documents and personal diary. BOTH times, I had nothing to do with their creation, others were light years ahead. But the FEARS about these techs were overrun by the potential to create, and in the end... conservative as I was... I chose that path. Rightly, I think. The 3rd one was when I got into e-mail with a half-dozen friends, early 90's. And these e-interactions ended up being written up in magazines, with people - including us - surprised at how important it became as we dealt with death, divorce, health, and a ton of intellectual issues as well. 4th round, starting '97 or so maybe, was using the web as a research tool and activist network. Absolutely mindblowingly positive results. By FAR the best research I've ever done, and the most impact from the activism. And now, 5th round, Blogging. In which what I'd wanted in round 2, back in 1987, has come walking onto my screen. Joy.

The real people to talk to on this are the ones that created these tools, or who revved them up and took them for a spin. As I say, I'm never at the bleeding edge. I lag, by years. But I find less and less to fear in these changes. My own brain has changed, sure. As has my sense of self. Reading a book is not what is was, for instance. My sense of speed is hugely different. But the bullshit bogeyman stuff... it hasn't really turned out that way. Not in my world anyway.

There. Too much, once again. But always fun to chat on dead threads, eh? Onward!!

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Response below...

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Yeah, the real people who changed society over the last two thousand years were the engineers. They DID it. They did not talk about it. They Did it.

Need an aquaduct? Lets do it. And they did. AND IT WORKED!!!!

They did tons of stuff that did not work. There were early dam and water projects in Egypt four thousand years ago that did not work.

So your conclusion is something that I really agree with.

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Thanks. This is exactly what I was hoping for! Though these thread chokers of yours always end up being too short for my liking. lol. This really clears up a lot of cob-webs in my head.

I guess one mistake I'm making (though have to think this over) is to attribute too much import to all the theoretical baggage that comes with a certain world-view. I worry, or wonder, about how we can relate to others and ourselves in a meaningful way if we lose the distinctive way in which we currently think about minds. There are a lot of conceptual distinctions we make explicitly or implicitly in dealing with the world that are going to go away. But I wonder what replaces it.

What is going to happen, I think, is a lot of the theoretical background that we regard as part and parcel of our so-called moral outlook - the ideas of a core self and free will - this theoretical stuff may evaporate or radically change. This LOOKS like a worry insofar as we think it is what makes that way of relating to life, to others, meaningful. But then again, perhaps it is just useless theoretical baggage we can easily throw aside without losing anything. Or at least not ending up with a net loss, after you factor in all the new and valuable opportunities that open up.

In hindsight it may look like just another Copernican or Darwinian revolution where all the old grumpy reactionaries at the time freak out about the world falling apart if we lose this one central axle around which the rest must turn; in the present case these ideas about a substantial and immovable Self. It's maybe only us conceptualists that have anything to worry about because it's going to screw up our whole damn framework. lol! Actually seen in this light of progress, it may just be another better, freer form of life, unburdened with all the mythology that weighs down the moral traditions that are handed from generation to generation.

Now I've got some theory about how our moral minds function that tells me there is something to worry about. But I've learned to be skeptical about my own theories - and those of the System. In any case it's comes down to an empirical issue - and for obvious reasons there's not a whole lot out there. But little things like the 'belief in determinism' experiment, where people for some reason shut off their moral compass, suggest to me a certain direction. Sure, I realize, it's next to nothing, but to my little theoretically biased eyes, it's not nothing either.

I have some thinking to do...! thanks for this!!

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Really a fun and fine ride Obey. I had to say that.

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Obey

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