On Tolerating Perfidy
It seems to me, a lot of blogs lately have been dancing around the same issue. I think that after 8 years of G.W. Bush's style of MBA-type governance, with it's trick accounting, and deletion of relevancy to present false conclusions, has taken it's toll.
We are reacting emotionally (or overreacting) to displays of blatant prevarication such as staged rants being presented an "news," Obama's Iraq withdrawal plans, the CPAC, the bank "bailout", the mortgage "bailout."
A lot of the arguments are over semantics, which is disturbing to me. Semantics is how we got here.
A fallacy is, very generally, an error in reasoning. This differs from a factual error, which is simply being wrong about the facts. To be more specific, a fallacy is an "argument" in which the premises given for the conclusion do not provide the needed degree of support. A deductive fallacy is a deductive argument that is invalid (it is such that it could have all true premises and still have a false conclusion). An inductive fallacy is less formal than a deductive fallacy. They are simply "arguments" which appear to be inductive arguments, but the premises do not provided enough support for the conclusion. In such cases, even if the premises were true, the conclusion would not be more likely to be true.
Fallacies
One issue I don't think has gotten enough attention is Obama's return to more open and traditional accounting methods. I don't know if there is such a thing as semantical accounting, or maybe creative accounting? But wotever it was, it was dishonest to say the least. In our society, we have a rich tradition of dealing with dishonesty, the courts. I think that until we start seeing some prosecutions of those well-paid executives of our financial institutions for allowing the crossing over from "optimist accounting" into "utterly-misleading and unsound accounting" we will distrust not only the markets and banks, but any entity which doesn't point it out, such as mainstream media.
The issue of trust is one no one wants to talk about, but it is up to all of us to stop tolerating fallacies. When there is evidence our new government is doing so, it should be celebrated.
Just one of those random thoughts.
I'd like to hear yours.
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Wow! Great post. I don't think enough people are aware of, or read through, Obama's new websites.
I like transparency. I like being treated like a rational, clear-thinking and intelligent fellow citizen by my President. Obama has the gift of carrying people. He talks to us like fellow colleagues, and expects us to be able to keep up. In case some of us can't keep up, however, he keeps it layman's language -- AND keeps it interesting.
He moves us and makes us yearn to be our better selves.
It's my hope (pun intended) that more people will get to feel and embrace that uplifting message of his. Because if all Americans were to truly strive to be their better selves, we would truly and easily become a better America.
And, cool trends being easy to spread these days, more countries would catch on and strive to do the same....and then the whole planet could finally be worthy of meeting the rest of the universe's/galaxy's life partners.....maybe.
And we'd finally be worthy of getting to share all the toys in the universal sandbox.
And add water. And build castles. And stuff.
March 1, 2009 2:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
We can dream, can't we?
=D
March 1, 2009 4:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
We can have stuff too?!?!? :-{)>
March 2, 2009 12:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lets see, I really like this one:
blatant prevarication
And I love this one:
I think that until we start seeing some prosecutions of those well-paid executives of our financial institutions for allowing the crossing over from "optimist accounting" into "utterly-misleading and unsound accounting" we will distrust not only the markets and banks, but any entity which doesn't point it out, such as mainstream media.
So I am awarding Bwak the Dayly Line of the Day for TPMC, given to all of you from all of me!!!
Frankly accountants as a class have caused more pain and suffering in this country than all the drug dealers combined and then some!!!!
March 1, 2009 2:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'd like to see all the drug offenders who did not sell to children taken out of prison, and all the white collar criminals who have money put into the empty cells, and their homes turned into affordable housing for the ex-con non-criminal drug users.
With room in the back for a garden.
March 1, 2009 3:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ok with me LisB. A lot of three timers in prison too for relatively smaller crimes. I bet we would do fine with 25% of the prison population released tomorrow.
March 1, 2009 3:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lis, I'm voting for you...
March 1, 2009 4:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
LisB for Department of Corrections Tsarina!
March 2, 2009 12:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Do I get a Faberge egg? If so, I'm definitely taking the job!
March 2, 2009 12:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ack. I'll give it a try.
(puffs up and changes colors)
March 2, 2009 12:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
LMAO!!!!!!
March 2, 2009 12:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
LOL!!!!
March 2, 2009 12:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
http://images.google.com/images?q=Faberge%20Egg&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&hl=en&tab=wi
March 2, 2009 2:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
That may only work with Firefox.
Otherwise, just google! Then take yr pick!
March 2, 2009 2:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
(I feel a bit strange)
Fer all of you from er, all of me.
=D
March 2, 2009 2:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
I am honored. It might be too early in the day to pass out awards, though.
March 1, 2009 4:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
I like your equation of fallacy in reasoning to fallacy in governing and accounting. I am working on a blog addressing this in addition to the fact that academics also make too much use of jargon so that their writing becomes inaccessible and people are left feeling the experts are able to assess things you can never understand. I believe there ought to be something like a "law" mandating speech to be understandable, whether in a professional article or for a loan or a will or laws or health care of anything. I think something has crept into language, through our culture, which allows people to be duped. And we have to combat it, call it out when we see it. (I'm not really expecting a law, but my contention is that anything someone wants to express should be capable of being posted at places like this, using regular everyday words that make sense to the average interested reader.)
It's not an easy subject to tackle, as I'm finding out. But it's crucial. And the number of blogs and comments dancing around this issue, as you point out, convinces me of the need to address this more.
So thanks for the encouragement - even though, in some ways, I hate to tackle the issue!
March 1, 2009 4:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
I would appreciate it. I know I didn't quite say what I was trying to get at, but as an emotional knee-jerk, type chicken, I think there is something there.
It is being addressed, I think, but not head-on. I think our new President is a subtle thinker, and the way he goes at things may confuse people. I feel there is a benevolence to his actions, though, as opposed to the malevolence of the last 8 years, and it sometimes seems too good to be true.
I seem to remember hearing that people and animals that have been abused have a hard time learning trust again. I think the American People have been abused.
Shamelessly.
March 1, 2009 4:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
Great post Bwak!
I like the multiple aspects of 'accounting' - explaining what you are doing, being accountable for what you are doing, justifying what you are doing. All of which were missing for three years and are back, it seems, in a big way! here's to hope!!
March 1, 2009 10:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
You address a kind of bushco-PTSD. You are on target!
March 2, 2009 9:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
PTSD, yes, there are certain similarities, for sure.
Like the pug, I am looking forward to that post, Thera.
March 2, 2009 10:54 AM | Reply | Permalink
TheraP, all this supercallifragilisticexspealidociousness makes me nervous. ;o)
I'm all for plain speaking. (Although, I am frequently guilty of muzzy commenting.)
March 1, 2009 9:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
We all post comments in haste. And we have to forgive ourselves. PCA picked up a big error on my part the other day - where I had not read a short post carefully enough. But the good thing about a community like this is that we pick up on each other's mistakes. And there's room to admit that. And revise.
March 2, 2009 9:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
Just saw this. You're going to send me to jail?! Yikes... (lol)
More seriously, as you know I agree to a good extent with what I'll call the 'Thera' principle
"anything someone wants to express should be capable of being posted at places like this"
But a couple of objections: take maths or physics articles at one extreme. The T-principle, I think you'll agree, doesn't apply. Then economics, medicine, neuroscience. For these there are ways to make the general gist of what you are doing understandable to the guy/gal in the street. But either you are dumming it down, oversimplifying, or you end up blathering on for ages, to explain the ins and outs of the arguments and the concepts which pack a lot of descriptive content. Then there are areas like philosophy and psychology, where some of these same considerations sometimes apply. Just thought I'd throw it out there...
March 1, 2009 10:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
What?
March 1, 2009 10:27 PM | Reply | Permalink
Sorry Bwak - this was for Thera (mostly a thing we have going...) I just submitted another comment for you.
March 1, 2009 10:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh, I fergot this:
=D
March 1, 2009 10:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'll admit that the Thera Principle needs amendment. And naturally I'm exempting statistics and other esoteric scientific experiments and so on. Nevertheless, I throw my principle out there for real-world testing. Seems to me that physicists could talk to children. So could economists. Naturally when they talk to each other they may use short-hand terms. But still, I challenge each and every professional to write at places like TPM, where "your average interested reader" can provide feedback.
I've decided to call what I'm discussing "word inflation."
And I know I'll incur the wrath of many in the academy for my stand. But I stand by it nonetheless. I've been doing nothing but thinking about this for the past couple of days. And placing academic writing - some of it - next to the financial froth fomented by fiends fracturing fuzzy new-fangled inventions made up of bonds and insurances alongside the strange speech of politicians trying to hoodwink us (and yes, you can accuse me of frothy words due to IRA rage!) - makes for some interesting thinking.
I'm fortunate. I can take on the special interests, including the academics, because I have nothing to lose! And being an outsider I can see the sad games being played - all to win tenure (or votes or bonuses or market share).
Obey opened my eyes! Inadvertently. And once opened, those eyes become lasers! And my mind, adept at seeing parallels due to the kind of work I do, is working overtime trying to condense my thinking into a useful post.
March 2, 2009 9:21 AM | Reply | Permalink
"word inflation" - I like it! and looking forward to that post.
Just remember that 'word deflation' may also be a problem... :0)
March 2, 2009 10:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, there's a part of me that wants to pursue word deflation, to the point of no longer posting or commenting. But not now. The stakes are too high!
March 2, 2009 11:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ack!
Thus, after taking each individual by turns in its powerful hands and kneading him as it likes, the sovereign extends its arms over society as a whole; it covers its surface with a network of small, complicated, painstaking, uniform rules through which the most original minds and the most vigorous souls cannot clear a way to surpass the crowd; it does not break wills, but it softens them, bends them, and directs them; it does not destroy, it prevents things from being born; it does not tyrannize, it hinders, compromises, enervates, extinguishes, dazes, and finally reduces each nation to being nothing more than a herd of timid and industrious animals of which the government is a shepherd.Here:
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/03/02/fear_independence_and_a_strong_cup_of_coffee/#more
March 2, 2009 11:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hi Bwak - I'm with you on this, as my general comments should show. btw. this is beautifully put. What I wanted to convey is something more complex, but it would take more than five minutes... oh crap I'm doomed here. LOL! :0)
March 2, 2009 12:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yez, the pug is a very good doggie. I knows it. I guess I may start getting ruffled when I hear the word "complex," as it has been the basis of a lot of the BS that triggers my BS detector. (looks down)
That doesn't mean all complexity is BS, of course, but perhaps another adjective would serve? Like, tortuous gluts of verbiage?
=D
March 2, 2009 1:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow! That's it exactly!
March 2, 2009 12:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
TheraP, great insight here. I've often seen it myself. I have to give credit to Obey for suggesting there are academics that have a vast vocabulary which is useful to express things more concisely or intricately. This helps them to discuss a concept more thorougly. However, there comes a time to explain to the average Jane what they found. That should be in plain English.
One quote I always enjoyed, of an unknown origin, "If someone takes more then 5 minutes to explain it, they probably do not know what they are talking about!"
March 2, 2009 12:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's been my experience that the more people use jargon, the more they are concealing/the less they know. It can become a fog. I'm convinced it leaves the average joe feeling there is no way they can ever penetrate the thicket of that topic or area. That is not a good situation for a democracy.
We are failing to "teach." To explain. To find ways to communicate. Finding ways to communicate is still possible. But we have rewarded "publishing" and not educating.
That's one thing. And the turning of everything into a commodity to be hawked via subterfuge is another.
The idea of a free press and free speech presumes being able to communicate. But if people's trust in communication breaks down - we are losing our ability to be a free nation.
March 2, 2009 12:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
More then anything, we have lost our ability to ask questions. People do not even know the questions to ask. We have spent the last eight years punishing people for asking questions. The critical question is, How do we return to being an inquisitive society interested and involved in answering questions?
Note: Okay that's my question but there should be a bazillion more! And of course, I reserve the right to ask a few hundred more questions myself!
March 2, 2009 1:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes. Asking questions! Amen.
March 2, 2009 2:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
Lookee here: amike is asking questions!
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/amike/2009/03/some-questions-for-the-economi.php
March 2, 2009 2:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
What? Are you suggesting George Will has no clothes?!?!?
March 2, 2009 12:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes I am. And many others.
March 2, 2009 12:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'll tell you Chicken, for a feathered gurl who hates blogging, you're awfully good at it! Hope to see more from you in the future!
March 1, 2009 5:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
You are all so inspiring. It makes me think, then the pressure gets too great and I have to squawk or explode.
=D
March 1, 2009 5:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Maybe rhetoric is a matter of inertia in the realm of the collective (unconscious and not so unconscious).
The loss of trust in a certain way of talking usually results in the inhibition (or prohibition) to talk a certain way.
The critical element to any change from "business as usual" must involve the revival of significance to what has been excluded from discourse.
If the above thinking is correct, it is odd that demands for transparent measures of value would ever become something that was not trusted.
Whatever the reason, it seems that a lot people are waiting on the sidelines to see if this group of talkers (ie the Obama administration) are struck down by the heavens before trying that kind of talk themselves.
This crisis has revealed a nation struck dumb in the midst of chatter.
March 1, 2009 6:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, although the chatter is incessant, it is at best tedious. I had a brother in-law who had been mocked so much as a child that he tended to lash out at one 'preemptively,' so as to avoid being the wounded party. He had learned not to trust that others had good intentions, and by doing so, managed to ensue the lack of them pretty effectively.
I worry, that President Obama will become a victim of our collective victimhood sometimes.
March 1, 2009 7:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
Won't happen. The guy has been psychically inoculated since childhood. His mother and his grandparents did a great job of that. He has inner strength without pathological narcissism. He has empathy. He has resilience. (He has Michelle!) He will endure. I feel sure of that. That is my professional assessment - and I stand by it!
March 2, 2009 11:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
That is a very comforting thought. BTW, I do so trust your judgement.
March 2, 2009 11:14 AM | Reply | Permalink
And I yours. Honestly, I think what is currently happening here at the Cafe is trust. A while back I talked about the need for safety, so trust could build. Naturally, some can see the "danger" in us being able to work together here (and would want to disrupt that - and have tried!). But it's happening. And I am convinced we are doing valuable work. It's not group-think. But is it a group thinking.
Questioning. Probing. Assessing. Formulating. Testing.
Very productive work going on here.
March 2, 2009 2:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
I knew it. I knew it. I knew it.
I’ve only become aware of you in the past few weeks through your short, indirect comments. But right from the get go I suspected you carried a heavy bat. And now you’ve given yourself away. When I was a little child, the butcher would sometimes give me a chicken foot to take home to play with, much to my mother’s chagrin. Now I get to play with the whole chicken. I had no idea what noble creature had been attached to that scaly, yellow foot.
This is a superb theme. It cuts in two directions. No system, large or small, can survive a loss of fundamental trust. At the same time, the first task in establishing a new system is to determine who can be trusted.
As you note, we have a mechanism to deal with the causes for this loss of trust, English civil law. It in fact predates the U.S. by a number of centuries. It foundations and contents are well suited to combating the mendacity that inheres in our current public affairs. That is why access to that mechanism has been so assiduously restricted in our recent times.
Underlying all of this is, as you observe, a lack of quality in the public debate, what you suggest are often semantic errors. I am one who thinks that most things are debatable, or, to put it differently, very little is certain other than what is defined by convention, for example what time it is or what day of the month it is. It is the quality of the debate that circumscribes the quality of the outcome of that debate. We need to become better at conversation and, yes, debate if we are ever to develop a new system that deserves our trust.
I say new system because I become more and more certain each day that the current public discussion is just writing more dialogue for the dead parrot sketch. The parrot is dead. It isn’t funny anymore. So let’s move on.
March 1, 2009 7:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Larry, Larry, Larry. It amuses me to no end that you consider my fuzzy thinking as anything approaching a heavy bat.
Bats are different than chickens, for one thing, they can fly, and we kind of strut, crookedly. They also like fruit.
Parrot? Don't get me started on the dead parrot. It has been stinking up the place and no one wants to move it because they say it is too big to put in a pail and cart off to the dustbin of history. Maybe if we throw enough money at it, it will become encased in gold and quit smelling so much.
I do not mind honest discussion, even contentious discussion, but when one is arguing about either things that might be or things that aren't and are so ridiculous it's astounding it gets frustrating and silly.
I think that we've been hit by so much nonsense from every direction we've lost sight of the forest for the trees. I dunno if that damage will be healed in a hurry.
March 1, 2009 8:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Larry and bwak, stunning comments here and elsewhere! We are fortunate in this little experiment here at TPM. We have super thinkers. Sometimes one or another cuts to the heart of the matter. Sometimes one or another can phrase that really well. But more than anything, I think we have a group with good "bullshit detectors." And that is what we're going on. A sense that things have gone wrong. An ability to point to how the "gone-wrongness" relates to trust and justice and words themselves. We are like a bunch of people facing a mountain - with pickaxes and microscopes. But we're chipping away. We're examining. We're saying: This mountain does not need to be here! It's getting in the way!
Probably a poor metaphor, but we always post in haste!
March 2, 2009 9:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
Such language from a third grad teacher. hahahahahaha
March 2, 2009 9:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
You can censor that one word for the third graders. Though plenty of them of them know it already!
March 2, 2009 11:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
Bullshit detectors!
The lack of bullshit detectors is our greatest problem in my mind. Weren't reporters supposed to be bullshit detectors? Weren't they the ones who would take no side and pick apart either one from their detached enclave, the press room?
We have become a nation unable to call bullshit. We were afraid to be partisan or political. The accusers who make these claims are the partisans themselves.
Let me go to Rush for my example. I read "I Told You So" many years ago, and he was all about the free market and how a company would NEVER do anything to hurt itself because that would threatenb profits. How he ever came to prominence after that has always boggled my mind, but it was pure bullshit.
How many examples of this can you recall that support that this is bull shit? One word, peanuts! Okay, one company, Ford and their exploding gas tanks. Okay, one more example, that classic John Edwards story of putting just one more very cheap piece into the drain of the childrens pool. My gues is you have a half dozen examples I have not mentioned.
Why did no one call bullshit? Or, why did we not hear them? Because they were partisans? As for me, I'll be political and a partisan. I'm proud to disgree and I will say that I did tell you so. I've earned many friends who were originally shocked I could be so opposed to things. They joined the opposition. It's just a small part of how we came to where we are.
No drama Obama? How about, no bullshit Obama, except of course for that little national fairy tale about Ford inventing the car. He did not invent it, he championed it. He took a great idea and repeated it a millions of times. Now we just need to repeat it electrically, but that's off topic.
March 2, 2009 12:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
REC'D!! Nicely put. I keep wondering when calling people on bullshit became socially unacceptable...?!
March 2, 2009 12:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey Gregor. Let's pass these out!
=D
You rawk!
March 2, 2009 1:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Boy, if only it were that easy!
March 2, 2009 2:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
I grew up near the Pacific ocean. I used to enjoy sticking my feet in the warm sands that had once been great mountains. I have a great respect for the power of erosion.
March 2, 2009 1:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
And I've often looked at the layers of rock and thought about how that was once sand beneath oceans that got pushed up into mountains that are now eroding. Erosion is fascinating.
March 2, 2009 6:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bwak, thanks for saying something true that does not require footnotes -- just recognition.
March 1, 2009 8:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
You rawk!
(Requires no footnotes. It just is)
March 1, 2009 8:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
"optimist accounting"...that's the one I like, chiggun. It's sorta what I do when I write a check at the grocery store on Thursday night before the paycheck hits the bank Friday morning. :o)
Good post. Important message. I'm guilty of a rant myself, but at the same time I am thirsting for more information. Ideally, I would like that information expressed plainly.
And also, too...I am with you about the American People having been abused and losing trust. We're just in the first stages of healing....yet there is that segment of the population that feel the need to defend their abusers. Funny-odd, that.
March 1, 2009 9:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
"defend their abusers" yez indeed they are doing so.
In many parts of the country, you can't even float a check anymore. They have a service that basically guarantees the check by placing an immediate hold for the funds in your account, similar to the way debit cards work.
Deposits sill can take up to 10 days to be credited, of course.
I think Larry might be right. Perhaps this "system" is so messed up, we'd be better off without it.
March 1, 2009 9:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Seems that "we make our own reality" bit didn't actually work, kind of vapor-ware.
On this subject, from that Icelandic writer: "Honest resentment opens a space for the hope that one day language might regain some of its critical capacity, that it could even begin to describe social realities again."
March 1, 2009 10:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Helgason was hopeful, though. So am I.
March 2, 2009 9:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
If there is one thing that upsets me about all the Republican screaming that the borrowers were not responsible, it is the exclusion or avoidance of those who were responsible for making the loans in teh first place. You know, the professionals who spend their entire day dealing with loans, not the people who are seeking to make a home purchase, an act they will probably do once in their entire life.
The purge needs to begin at the top and work it's way down, like a trickle maybe. We could call this Trickle-Down Accountability. We hit hard at the top and then it works its way down. The great part about this is that, if we imitate the economic agenda of this same name, the little guys will not get any accountability at all!
March 2, 2009 12:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
It must begin at the top of many institutions. Many!
GregorZ, you are a great contributor here!
March 2, 2009 12:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Aww shucks! Thank you, TheraP.
March 2, 2009 2:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Zee Cheeken heets zee nailz on zee heads... A perfect post which truly describes the missing anchor as we drift about in the storm battening hatches and reefing sails. Nicely done!
March 2, 2009 6:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
Reset and Resist
April 1, 2009 8:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Also.
May 8, 2009 1:12 PM | Reply | Permalink