I've politely asked KGB999 to create his own blogs is he had something important to say about Honduras. He declined, citing his right to comment on my own blogs. OK, but a 500 word comment covering 30 sub-topics is just too much to respond to as another comment. So I wish to do it here, in a blog.
KGB's first comment is actually a blog - a litany of things he has found out about Zelaya's return to Honduras. Much of it was a repeat of what I wrote in my
blog on the subject. There are no links. We only have his word that he is telling us the truth. I had few links myself, as I was rushing to get my report online. The difference is, however,
that I wasn't challenging anyone's veracity!Taken from the top of KGB's comments:
Just a quick update from what I've found in the Honduran MSM (mostly via: Tiempo, El Harldo, La Perinsa, La Tribuna):
In the first place, let's look at those online newspapers from Honduras. El Tiempo is owned by Honduras' richest man, Jaime Rosenthal. Even though Rosenthal was the power broker behind Zelaya's election, El Tiempo did not support him after June 28 in their editorials, and they did not support the golpistas either. But about three weeks ago El Tiempo began publishing anti-coup material in response to several attacks on El Tiempo reporters and equipment by the national police and the military. El Heraldo and La Prensa is owned by Jorge Canahuati Larach, one of the top leaders of the Coup d'Etat. La Tribuna is owned by Carlos Flores Facussé, one of the top Coup d'Etat.
KGB999 writes on:
-At about 5am police/military clashed with Zelaya supporters and
cleared out the area around the Brazilian embassy. There were a few
reports of businesses set on fire and looted during the night - and
photos showed the military recovering Molotovs from the debris. The
police used tear gas, water cannon, and rubber bullets. Many vehicles
were damaged or destroyed (most vehicles parked in front of the
embassy, but at least one police vehicle was burned).
I'm only aware of one report of business vandalism, a Burger King that was attacked by three hooded men - no one knows where they're from. What would a molotov look like recovered from the debris? A broken bottle? The military brought in cranes to remove vehicles belonging to embassy staff and protesters.
-The Brazilian embassy is estimating the Pro-Zelaya crowd to have been around 5000 people.
And Michelleti guessed 2,500 protesters, and Xiomara Zelaya guessed 50,000. It's the old count game - doesn't tell us much. The photos show standing room only in front of the embassy, and there were other gathering throughout Tegucigalpa and the rest of Honduras. Many people. No one has a count.
-There were 200 reported arrests for curfew violations. Individuals are
being held temporarily at sports arenas and local jails. Pasadena-based
CDHR has issued claims of torture and characterized the detentions as
equivalent to Nazi concentration camps.(Note: IMO, it is unlikely at
best that (a) any US organization would be able to assert with
certainty the actual events that are occurring in the detention
facilities within an hour of the arrested arriving, and (b) that a
systemic infrastructure for torture has been set up in a local sports
complex so quickly. I consider this to be uninformed propaganda geared
to be inflammatory that tends to discredit the reporting agency)
Pasadena-based CDHR issued no such claim. It is an organization with one project, the rights of the San Francisco 8. KGB999 is confused. The claims of torture were made by the Comité para la Defensa de los Derechos Humanos en Honduras (CODEH). It is a bona fide and credible agency that has existed in Honduras since 1981, staffed by experts in the field of human rights investigations and verifications. Why KGB999 believes that a "systemic infrastructure" for torture is required is beyond me. Kicking someone on the ground until he rats on his friends requires nothing but cops, ground and boots. Raping a woman with police batons until she confesses her crimes against the state only requires cops and batons. But on that basis KGB999 considers the CODEH report to be "uninformed propaganda." We are to believe KGB999 is an expert on these matters. He is "KGB", after all.
-Honduras has cut the phone, water, and electricity to the Brazilian
embassy and were bombarding the compound with the Honduran national
anthem using what appeared to be a military-grade directed speaker
system (like the ones they are trying to use on ships to thwart pirate
attacks). It is unclear if this is ongoing.
Tear gas grenades were also lobbed into the embassy compound.
-Brazil has recalled Francisco Resende, the head of their delegation to
Brazil and advised officials not to come in to work. They have
requested "if necessary" that the US embassy provide them with diesel
for their generator and security.
Resende is not at the embassy, he is at his home in Tegucigalpa. Most of the embassy staff stayed home as well, but some are inside the embassy. I don't know why Resende would be recalled to Brazil: he's the charge d affairs left behind after the ambassador was recalled some weeks ago. Zelaya's entourage is about 70, including reporters. The requests from the US embassy have been for food and water, as well as generator fuel. This link says that utilities have been restored. The State Department said the US would help out as needed.
-Honduras' data networks are strained and access to all sites is spotty.
-There are two emerging (contradictory) stories about Zelaya's
return. His speech and some reports imply that he navigated the border
from El Salvidor. Other reports indicate that he came in by plane late
Sunday night.
The airplane story is a fluke. He flew from Managua to San Salvador. President Funes said he saw Zelaya at the airport. From there he traveled by automobile to Tegucigalpa. NYT has a good story about the return. The suggestion is that some military members helped him get home.
-The airport closure has prevented OAS secretary Insulza from entering
the country for scheduled negotiations to finalize agreement to the
Costa Rican accord(my term) .
Allegedly, Michelleti also threatened to shoot Insulza's plane down if he tries to come to Honduras. And it's the "San José Accord" - after the capital of Costa Rica.
-Michaletti has given assurances to Brazil that the sovereignty of
their embassy will not be violated. The Honduran government has also
made clear statements that if Zelaya steps outside the embassy he will
be arrested. Michaletti has also formally requested that Brazil either
hand Zelaya over to officers of the court to face charges or to
officially grant him asylum.
True, but I didn't hear about the "asylum" part. Brazil has officially given him asylum, the moment they let him in the embassy. But Michelleti isn't the sharpest tack in the box, so maybe he didn't realize that.
-Roadblocks have been set up throughout the country and access to the
capitol is severely restricted. There is also a security cordon manned
by police and military in the area around the Brazilian embassy.
So stipulated...
-103 individuals have been admitted to the Emergency Medical Teaching
Hospital with injuries, none reported as serious. The hospital reports
no gunshot wounds. Zelaya supporters are asserting one, possibly two
deaths, the victims have not been named and no medical facility has yet
confirmed treating shooting injuries or deaths.
This is where Kgb999 needs a citation, as the numbers vary with each report, and even change with the developments on the ground. One problem is that the repression isn't confined to the area near the Brazilian embassy, but is going on all over town. For example, Radio Globo has announced that the Hospital School has reported treating injuries from an attack on protesters in Colonia 21 November - 25 gunshot wounds. There are 24 neighborhoods under attack, barricaded etc.
-A coolition of candidates for president has called for dialog and an
agreement under the Costa Rican framework. They have offered to
initiate discussions with both sides of the conflict with a mind to
peaceful resolution. At least one (Lobo) has threatened to withdraw
support from Michaletti if dialog is refused.
Elvin Santos distanced himself from the golpistas a few weeks ago, in an effort to save his chances in light of the huge number of voters in the anti-coup resistance. The others are doing the same. But it is noteworthy when these candidates went to San Jose two weeks ago and declared support for the accord, not one of them agreed to Zelaya's return to power. Arias didn't press them on that, and he should have.
-Zelaya has issued calls for his supporters to come to the Brazillian
embassy to offer him protection. He referred to the actions removing
his supporters as "disproportionate".
And...?
Those are the highlights I've been able to discover. Since comments are
limited to 2 links ... I'll just give a link to a decent index of
Honduran news outlets and recommend using google to translate the sites
if you want more details.
http://honduras.com/newspapers.htm
http://translate.google.com
Well, that's much in the citation department. What does Kgb expect? That readers go to his link and search all the newspapers listed and search for the points he has made, simultaneously running everything through a rough translation application? I mean, what's the point of pretending to make citations of points and authorities?
And then, remarkably, in another comment, Kgb999 writes:
Neo: I can not find any verifiable source for your claims of aircraft
dropping tear gas. In fact it seems to directly contradict the reports
from the Brazilian embassy - who are both neutral and have an amazingly
close vantage point from which to observe the actions. And there is
quite a lot of photographic documentation of the operation that also
contradicts many of your claims.
I wasn't actually making any claims. My blog was simply a rush collection of things that I had read concerning Zelaya's return and events following in Honduras. Had Kgb999 simply asked for a citation, I would have provided one. A translation of Dr. Almendares' letter from a source that Kgb999 believes to be propaganda:
Stop the Brutality of the Military Coup
Dear friends:
We confirm the terrible news that teargas and pepper gas canisters
have been thrown from airplanes and by military troops, not only at the
Brazilian Embassy but also around its perimeter so that the gas covers
an extensive area, along with gunshots. This situation puts President
Zelaya's life in danger, along with the diplomatic corps and all the
members of the Resistance who have stayed outside the whole night,
peacefully accompanying the legitimate President of Honduras.
The risk also extends to the people who are in neighboring areas who
suffer from asthma, cardiac and cerebral illnesses or who may be
allergic or hyper-sensitive to such gases and who may have a high risk
of death.
This is just one more of the repressive military brutalities of the
de facto regime. We desperately need an increase in solidarity with the
people of Honduras.
Out of respect for human rights, peace and justice
Juan Almendares [my translation]
And a check on Juan Almendares credentials.
I think your zeal is leading you to report flat-out lies. You might
want to temper your excitement with a modicum of critical thought. I've
been watching videos of the area around the Brazilian embassy all
morning - there is ZERO evidence or reports of snipers shooting into
the place.
Kgb999 concludes I am reporting flat-out lies, based on his failure to find the source which he did not ask me to supply. That spells A-G-E-N-D-A to me. He suggests that my "zeal" and "excitement" need tempering with "critical thought." Shucks, I don't know what I did to get on his bad side? I was just writing shit down that I came across on the web to describe the situation. I wasn't making an ARGUMENT.
There is also no evidence that difficulty accessing web services from
Honduran outlets is based on anything but huge traffic overload. Most
sites have stripped all large graphics from their home pages and still
can't seem to keep up. It is important to remember that IP services in
Honduras have been the subject of muchos corruption that has severely
limited the bandwidth available to the entire nation.
Radio Globo, when its power was cut and its web broadcast went down, called EENE, the power company, and they were told that the military had taken control of the company. That's just an example of one - its happening to all the liberal media outlets. There's the evidence. Global, Channel 36 and Cholusat Sur went back up with generators. Down again when fuel ran out, and was hard to get because of the curfew, which has again been extended until tomorrow morning 6 am.
Finally, Kgb offers a "value-added" comment to an update I posted of a WSJ article on the Brazilian congress' motion to repudiate the actions taken by the golpistas with regard to the embassy. But the "value-added" had no relevance to the subject of the WSJ article at all.
Anyway, this is my point in all of this, and this applies to blogging in general, with regards to comments. This blog is overly long, as you can see. And it is a response to two - three comments made on another blog. Since the comments raised the veracity question on the original blog, they should be answered. There's nothing wrong with argument, challenge and defense etc. It's great stuff. But when the comment is so complex and convoluted that it makes it impossible to rejoin within the constraints of comments, it's just plain wrong and disrespectful. So, says I:
KGB, I encourage you to create your own blogs on these matters. You've
covered way too much ground to respond to without this particular blog
losing its direction altogether. Thanx.
Kgb did not respond, so again, after he attacked my credibility:
You're
a bit patronizing there, kid. Tell you what, I'll practice critical
thinking if you post your own blogs - I certainly don't want "truth"
polluting mine. Deal?
Sure, some snark there, but Kgb earned it. His response?
If you post publicly, I will continue to comment.
That's pure "asshole" in my book.