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They Can Have My Gun When.....


On October 16, 2008 at 2:15 PM, part-time college librarian Alan Godin walked into the library of Northeast Longview College in San Antonio.   He went to the desk of fellow librarian Devin Zimmerman, a well liked member of the library staff who was working on new ways to make the library more accessible to students with disabilities.   Mr. Godin put on a pair of shooting range ear protectors, pulled a handgun then shot and killed Mr. Zimmerman.    He then put the gun on a table, sat down and waited for the police to arrive.  He is currently being held on a $250,000.00 bond and his trial is scheduled to start at the end of the month. 

Mr. Godin's gun did not kill Mr. Zimmerman.   Alan pulled the trigger and will pay for his crime.  But the gun did make it easier for him to kill his fellow co-worker.    Godin is 62 years old, 5'3" and weighs approximately 125 pounds.   He is not the type of person to participate in a physical altercation.  Without access to a firearm, there is a very good chance that Mr. Zimmerman would still be alive.

On October 8, 2009, Meleanie Hain was found dead in her home, the victim of a murder-suicide. Ms. Hain's story was not necessarily noteworthy on a national level, on average over a 1000 women per year die at the hands of a spouse or lover from guns.  The NRA would like to tell you that if a woman is trained to use a firearm then she is safer than she is without one.    But the background of Ms. Hain would seem to argue that point.  Ms. Hain was a parole officer and former prison guard who gained notoriety in 2008 by attending her daughter's soccer gun with a pistol strapped on her hip in plain sight.    The resulting uproar from other parents caused county officials to revoke her carry permit.   She successfully sued to get it back but it did little to help her on the night of her murder.  All of her training, her obvious comfort with firearms and her gun ownership failed to save her life.   One wonders if there had been no gun in her house would she be an abuse statistic as opposed to a homicide statistic.

I missed the Godin story when it originally happened.    It was quick "filler" for national news but sadly, school shootings that result in only one death no longer get national coverage.   There are simply too many of them.   But I have thought of it often over the past year.   You see, Alan Godin was once a good friend of mine.   I confess that I have no idea what happened during the years we lost touch to bring him to a point where he would take another man's life. 

This is the point where I am supposed to rail against American's love of guns!   I'm supposed to point out that if we could get rid of all guns in America, then we would all live safer lives.   And that's true to a degree...IF you actually could get rid of all guns.    But that won't happen because the problems are two fold.   

One is a legal issue.  Americans have a right to bear arms according to the Constitution.   Now you can argue that this was a right never intended as an individual right but as the right of the state to arm a militia.   But the Supreme Court has disagreed with that interpretation which pretty much eliminates the possibility of any ban from a legal standpoint.  

 The second problem is pragmatic.    Gun bans don't work!   The old bumper sticker is still true, "WHEN GUNS ARE OUTLAWED ONLY OUTLAWS WILL HAVE GUNS".    In an age of the "disposable culture", guns are the one item we make that is made to last FOREVER!    The pistol your grandfather bought in 1950 is still capable of firing accurately some 60 years later if it's been well cared for.    Firearms are handed down from generation to generation in America.   An unbelievable number of the firearms produced over the last 50 years are still out there waiting to be fired.  Wishing they would go away won't make them disappear.  To say nothing of the 4.5 million NEW firearms sold EACH year in the US.

Acknowledging the impossibility of enforcing a total ban however should not suggest that increasing or enforcing regulation of firearms is also impossible.   Likewise we should not assert that regulations cannot contribute to the public safety.

And guns are a matter of public safety.   On average, each day in America some 276 people are shot.  One out of every three American homes owns a gun.  And while many are for home protection, the reality is that those guns are four times more likely to be used in an unintentional shooting than to be used for self defense.  These are facts that can be looked at in two ways.   You can scream about the horror of the accidental shootings or you can be grateful that you had a weapon when someone broke into your home.    The odds are against your gun actually helping you during a break-in, but if you are that 1 out of 4 who successfully injures another person with a firearm in self-defense, you tend to be grateful for your right to own a gun.

But there are things that can be done to keep guns out of the hands of criminals and children.  (Who are most often injured accidentally by guns.  Over 4,000 children  under the age of 19 were injured accidentally by guns in 2007.)   

First and foremost:   Lock your guns in a gun safe! This simple act of responsibility will do more to cut injuries than any legislation or ban ever could.  A gun safe keeps guns out of the hands of your children and will help prevent them from being stolen from your home.   That's where a huge percentage of criminals get their guns.   They steal them from people who bought them for home protection.   Sometimes they break into your home to steal them and sometimes they are stolen by a relative who has ready access to your home.   The 18 states that have laws on the books requiring safe storage of weapons have on average  26.3% fewer gun thefts than states without such laws.

Perhaps we should examine making gun owners liable for any injuries caused by a gun NOT stored in a safe.   If your kid's best friend starts playing with your pistol and someone gets shot, make the gun owner responsible for the financial burden.  Much like a car owner is responsible for damages done by an uninsured vehicle he owns.   It might sound crazy, but it would help make people think responsibly about their gun ownership.

We can also enforce the current laws that are already on the books.    Specifically, let's look at gun shows. The ATF estimates that approximately 30% of illegally trafficked firearms come from gun shows. Federal law requires ANYONE (whether a licensed gun dealer or a private citizen) to refuse to sell a firearm to anyone they suspect of not being unable to pass a back ground check.  Recently, Mayor Bloomberg of New York City commissioned an investigation of gun sales at gun shows.  When undercover "buyers" approached 30 sellers in a variety of states, they agreed on the price to the gun and pointed out that they probably couldn't pass a background check.  Nineteen of those "sellers" went ahead with the sale after being told the "buyer" couldn't pass the required background check.   It's a clear violation of the law, but it is not something that is often enforced by ATF.  It needs to be!

Now the NRA is extremely upset about this "sting" operation.    They insist that it's wrong of New York City to try to regulate gun sales that originate out of their jurisdiction.    New York City has some of the toughest laws on the books regarding gun sales and extremely severe penalties regarding crimes using guns.    As a result, New York Criminals often do not get guns from within the city limits of New York City.   In fact, the ATF estimates that 89% of guns used to commit crimes in New York City come from out of state gun shows!  In other words, their regulations decrease the number of crimes committed using guns purchased illegally within New York.   Unfortunately it is still extremely easy to go to less regulated states to purchase guns to bring back to New York City to commit crimes with  This is why New York City Mayor Bloomberg supports changes in federal law to standardize the rules by which all guns are sold throughout America.

Americans will never get rid of their guns.   As that other famous NRA bumper sticker puts it, "THEY CAN HAVE MY GUN WHEN THEY PRY IT FROM MY COLD DEAD HAND".     Right of ownership however is not a reason to abdicate the responsibility for those weapons.    These three simple steps:  1) enacting nation wide safe storage laws, 2) enforcing current legislation and 3) standardizing the rules for gun sales nation wide won't solve every problem associated with guns in America....but it's a good place to start.  

Sadly, the two case examples I listed earlier would both have been totally unaffected by these changes.   Both Mr. Zimmerman and Ms. Hanes would still be dead from gun violence even if these three suggestions were being met.  My friend Alan would still be facing a jury next week. The children of the Hains will still be orphans.   Tomorrow someone may die from gun violence in your city.  Some child will end up fighting for his life somewhere because his friend wanted to show him Dad's cool gun.  But maybe with a little work and without the NRA's kneejerk reaction against any and  ALL legislation, we can avoid SOME of these accidents.   This is not about a perfect solution, instead it is about making an impossible situation better.   Nothing more and nothing less.  Pragmatic but not perfect.


22 Comments

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Thank you.

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It is very easy to find anecdotal stories to prove any point. You examples can be countered every month by the examples listed in the NRA's Armed Citizen column, which details examples of guns saving people's lives. It is impossible to know if not having a gun available would prevent a crime, as other options exist for the criminal, but it is easy to show that having a gun prevented a crime. Selling at a gun show is no different than selling from the local paper or from an online ad or an ad posted on some bulletin board. The gun show boogeyman is simply a way to force all private sales to be registered, with the clear intent then of being able to enact confiscation.

Your stats about the uses of guns are also wrong, since they are based on the assumption that for a gun to be used successfully someone must get shot. This is simply absurd, as the mere presence of a gun often deters crime. And safe storage laws are meant to make guns useless for home defense and to increase liability to discourage people from keeping a gun for defense, all in an attempt to limit and then eliminate gun ownership.

Guns are tools, and they were invented for a reason, without them we live in a world where the strongest rule. A 6ft 6 thug would love a world where all were unarmed, it would allow him to prey on anyone with impunity. As it has been said before, God made men, Colt made them equal.

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And safe storage laws are meant to make guns useless for home defense and to increase liability to discourage people from keeping a gun for defense, all in an attempt to limit and then eliminate gun ownership.

I did not read where storage laws were meant to make guns useless for home defense. I believe the intent was to prevent unauthorized access to the weapons. I am also curious to know, of all those "Armed Citizens", how many would NOT have had time to unlock them from a case, or trigger guard? Although I would agree having them locked up at the Mini-Mart does render them uselss, I do not see where that was the intent.

As for the liability issue, I feel pretty confident that the gun owner is responsible for any events that occur related to their inability to sufficiently sequester a firearm, and I agree. Gun owners need to be responsible for their weapons, period.

"...all in an attempt to limit then eliminate gun ownership." This is the slippery slope scare tactic put on frightened people who cannot fathom being wtihout a gun. It is never going to happen, as above noted. But it sure is good to suggest that to people so they keep their NRA membership! The NRA is a multi-million dollar organization desperate to keep its membership roles high and eager for new members to perpetuate its riches.

Be afraid, be very, very afraid, and keep sending the NRA your money, as though the government would ever bother going door-to-door to gather your guns. Yeah, right! As we speak, 1 in 3 own at least 1 gun. Guns are not diabled by the ravages of time if properly stored. There will always be citizens with guns, everywhere.

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Are you responsible for any damage caused by someone stealing your car? If I steal your baseball bat and bash in someone's head, are you responsible? Why the double standard? Because you don't like gun ownership.

If you are so worried about gun safety, why not push for gun safety classes to be offered in school?

The so called 'safe storage' laws have been used to effectively render guns useless for defense in some areas, by requiring guns to be stored unloaded, disassembled, and trigger locked. The time to put the weapon into operation is too great to be useful in a stressful emergency.

As to confiscating weapons, Sen. Feinstein said "if I had the votes to go door to door and tell people turn in your weapons, I would". She was very open about wanting to confiscate people's weapons.

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You want to include a citation to that statement, Bulldog. I googled it and got nada.

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Actually, I don't see any instances in the Armed Citizens columns where guns prevented crimes. In fact, there is absolutely zero evidence to support the claim by the column's author that guns prevented any crimes much less the 2 million figure cited.

In each case cited by Armed Citizens, the crime was being committed long before the victim secured the gun. Perhaps if the citizens patrolled their property 24/7 with the guns in their hands, they might, might, prevent crimes, but I doubt it. That is why concealed carry weapons permits are relatively useless in preventing crimes - unless you wear the gun on your hip like Wyatt Earp, the criminal isn't going to know if you have a gun or not and since criminals are generally desperate, drug and alcohol infused people, it doesn't matter to them how long the chances are that you're armed or not, if they think they have the slightest chance of relieving you or your money, property or your life, they will take that chance.

Personally, I don't care if people have arsenals to rival Ft. Bragg, only two laws are necessary to slow down gun violence - 1, if you use a gun in the commission of a crime you should go to prison for life, you have formed the intent to kill by using that gun - and 2, if you child uses your gun in the commission of a crime, you should go to prison for life for your criminal lack of responsibility. Of course, the gun lobby won't allow either of these laws to be enacted, especially the second law. By the way, did you know that 44 police officers were killed by concealed weapons permit carriers? Just goes to show how ineffective any gun laws are.

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Actually your numbers are off. According to the VPC, the group formerly known as the National Coalition to Ban Handguns (had to change the name 'cause it gave away their true agenda) 7 police have been killed, and 44 civilians.

http://www.vpc.org/press/0907ccw2.htm

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It just gets worse, doesn't it?

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But how many people were not killed as a result of people being armed? That is the problem, it is difficult to show the successes and easy to show the failures. Personally, I would feel a lot safer in a room where everyone was known to be armed than in a room where everyone was THOUGHT to be unarmed. Even the most deranged seldom attack police stations. Criminals, even the insane ones, prefer unarmed victims

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theCleverBulldog is content for criminals to have guns in NYC as long as they get them illegally out of the city.

Your position on gun shows is that because you fear an extention of such laws the background check law should not be enforced there.

Your argument as to guns preventing home invasions is a little like that old joke about why are pool tables green? To keep the elephants off of them. Huh? You haven't seen an elephant on a pool table now have you?

There is a balancing inquiry to make -- how many children injured by playing with guns should be offset by home invasions deterred by the presence of guns minus the number of home invasions conducted by criminals seeking guns.

Start thinking about realities rather than parroting paranoid NRA fantasy about the motives and future actions of as yet unelected legislators. The current ones are far to scared of the NRA to do anything useful.

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No, I would like law abiding citizens to be able to legally obtain guns in NYC. Making them illegal only keeps the decent people disarmed. As far as gun shows, I'm sure you know nothing about them. I've been to many of them, and bought a number of weapons there. If you buy from a dealer, all the paperwork and background checks are performed, same as at a gun shop. If you buy from a private person who just happens to be there with a gun they want to sell, the same rules that apply to non dealers when you sell from the newspaper or to a friend or any other method apply, which is to say you are limited to selling only a few guns per year this way.

As to your 'balancing act', I do not agree to 'balance' my constitutional rights against your theories on child safety.

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Years ago, I was building a set and had to play a small part and threaten people with a pistol.

http://www.donalfagan.com/html/diary.html

I expected to use a prop, but another fellow in the show loaned me one of his handguns, from which he had removed the firing pin, that looked enough like a Luger for the stage. A lot of romances occur backstage, and I fell in love with that little .22. I clearly like machinery as much as the next guy, but good firearms are fairly expensive, and I have resisted the impulse to actually buy a weapon so far.

I think a better plan would be for all of us to wear a kill button - right on our chests. The buttons would be designed to permanently record fingerprints. Perhaps a camera could be included. They would also have a three second delay, so if someone pushes yours, you can push theirs right back.

The main advantage of my system is that no one need fear stray bullets, or be woken up by loud noises late at night. Also, reciprocal button-pushing would eliminate a lot of lengthy and expensive litigations and executions. And eventually rude, obnoxious people would be weaned from the population (the overpopulation). As would people with stubby fingers, poor eyesight and slow reflexes.

The main disadvantage, of course, is that a lot of children and affectionate parents will be accidentally killed by impulsive and curious little button-pushers. But in general, it will be a good thing for society to have buttons on the people that push our buttons.

I wonder if such a button could be designed to work over IP?

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I agree with bulldog on the gun shows part. Most people have no idea what the real situation is. Bloomberg was just out scoring cheap political points and misrepresenting the situation ... while ignoring the behaviors on wall street that ended up destroying our economy and letting his school system slide into a morass of corruption centered around his "performance" criterion that reward administrators for not allowing teachers to report problems (he then tries to say the numbers show schools are "improved").

But Bulldog's belief that securing one's weapons is a bad thing indicates why the NRA has become a danger to society. They didn't used to be that way. Years ago, they were at to forefront of safe gun ownership with a serious program providing trigger locks (for example) and a huge PR campaign showing that the short time it takes to unsecure a weapon was well worth avoiding a completely preventable accidental death - and didn't significantly reduce effectiveness in a home invasion situation. The group is no longer about responsibility, it's about using the platform to attack anything seen as liberal - no matter what. There isn't a braincell in the bunch anymore.

The sad thing is that those who fail to act responsibly - or worse, argue for the right to act in a dangerously irresponsible fashion - open the door to regulations that I feel are not in the overall best interest of America.

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I keep the majority of my weapons in a safe, they are very secure. However, I keep one handy due to the difficulty in opening a safe quickly in the middle of the night. The problem is with laws that start out reasonable, then become like those in some states that require guns to be stored unloaded, disassembled, and trigger locked, making them totally useless for home defense. This is then used as an argument as to why having them is pointless and so therefore they should be banned. The NRA made many concessions over the years to 'reasonable' laws, only to find they are then made more restrictive - there is no pleasing the gun ban crowd. They want a total ban and will nibble away until they get it.

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If you're willing to take the chance that a kid could get hold of it, what can anyone say to this?

If people want to sleep with guns under their pillows, there is little anyone can do about it.

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But they do provide more entries into the Darwin Awards now and then.

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There's simply no credible evidence that further restricting or eliminating gun ownership would have the effect of reducing homicides and suicides in America. In fact, the data point in the opposite direction.

I'm sorry to hear this story, but the answers to these problems lie elsewhere.

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Personally, I would feel a lot safer in a room where everyone was known to be armed than in a room where everyone was THOUGHT to be unarmed.

Well, I wouldn't feel safer.

I don't own a gun. Yet. But I drive a car. Virtually everybody drives. And most of them -- yes, the majority -- don't really know what they're doing. Sure, they manage to stay out of accidents, most of the time. But they really haven't a clue.

Driving a car isn't even a "right". It's a privilege, and you have to take a test to prove the absolute minimum of competence before you're allowed to get a license to drive.

There's a background check before you can own a gun, but I don't believe there's any kind of test required (is there?). And certainly there's no test of intelligence or emotional maturity.

No, I'm sorry, people with guns make me pretty darned nervous. Enough so that I'm considering getting one of my own. (And your argument that the 6'6" guy would be able to bully everybody if there were no guns is pretty simple minded. I'm of average size, but I have no fear of a big guy who doesn't have a gun.)

-- ARG

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Other than the New York sting, has anyone on the national level put gun bans on the list of reforms that need to be enacted?

Aside from the ammo shortages bought by the kooks who think the entire Democratic agenda is about banning their guns, is there any reason for gun owners to be particularly worried?

A ban is not on any national agenda.

Doesn't mean that all is well, though. Cops: Dad shoots teen having sex with daughter.

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Did you hear the police? They were really playing the crime down and stressing what a great guy the shooter was! WTF!

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