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Rand/Thrasymachus, Marx, and Dostoyevsky


With the lack of regulation leading to catastrophic failure of our "free market" system, in turn leading to calls for increased calls for regulation, it's no surprise that the virtues of Ayn Rand are being extolled once again. Although I have no problem with her as an author, or even as a philosopher, I do have a problem with taking her ideas out of historical context, and attributing to them a greater worth than I think they deserve.
    Ayn Rand's "selfishness as a virtue" is not a new idea. The Greek philosopher Thrasymachus voiced a similar idea, commonly translated as "injustice is virtue". From Matson's A History of Philosophy,
But far from saying that by nature all men are equal, they held that on the contrary men, like beasts, are naturally unequal, and what is natural is for every man to get what he can by any means. Law, morality, fair play, everything that the Greek summed up in the notion of "justice," is a conventional artificial obstacle that a clever man will circumvent-and be a better man, a more excellent, "virtuous" man, for doing it. "Injustice is virtue."
It is easier to understand this philosophy by knowing the history of Greek philosophy up to this point: several iterations of philosophers had attempt to separate the natural from the conventional, working from the basis that the natural is equivalent to the virtuous (similar arguments today can be heard from certain corners of the homophobic world), but up until Thrasymachus' radical re-analysis of what is natural, most philosophers held that what we would consider virtuous was, in fact, natural. One supposes that they were trying to rationally justify virtue without appealing to metaphysics. (Plato's great-uncle Critias explained the Greek pantheon of gods as an invention by wise men to keep the masses from breaking the laws necessary for social order, but I'll save a more indepth look into this interesting philosopher for another post.)
    (Interesting tidbit about Ayn Rand: she saw health warnings on cigarettes as a socialist conspiracy. Non-ironically, she was a regular smoker and died of lung cancer.)
    All of this is not to say that her ideas weren't influential (they were), or that they don't have some merit (they do), but I do want to stress that her ideas weren't original (though I'm definitely not accusing her of plagiarism), and, in my opinion, they're flawed because of assumptions she makes about human nature as well as failing to appreciate emergent behaviors. (Emergent behaviors are behaviors that exist in a collective that don't exist in any one individual. Emergent behaviors can be seen in the actions of bees, ants, and neural networks, as well as in humans.)
    Ironically, Ayn Rand's theories therefore remind me very much of Karl Marx's. In my opinion, he also made untenable assumptions about human nature, and he also failed to appreciate emergent behaviors. In both Rand and Marx's case, it's not hard to forgive them this oversight as the proper study of emergent behaviors is fairly new, in my opinion. However, one author I think had a much better grasp of human nature, despite preceding them both, is Fyodor Dostoyevsky. In Notes From Underground, he makes the excellent observation that if some genius were to discover a set of scientific principles that would make each of us perfectly happy (an idea that was inspired by reading Charles Darwin's On the Origin of Species), we would not follow these principles, because we cannot be truly happy following any rules. Although perhaps not rigorous from a logician's perspective, he effectively makes an argument reductio ad absurdum that no set of rules will ever make us happy, and that's true whether it's completely free-market capitalism, Marxism, or a semi-regulated semi-free-market capitalism with quasi-socialistic safety nets thrown in (or however you want to describe our current system). Of course, one could argue that neither Rand nor Marx were interested in happiness, but were pursuing other goals for us, such as freedom. Furthermore, Rand's disciples might argue that their Way is one of No Rules, just as many an atheist will argue that their Way is one of No Beliefs. (Not all atheists, mind you. I'm an atheist, and I'm perfectly comfortable talking about my beliefs, but I'll also save that for another post. Probably the same one where I discuss Critias.) As you can probably guess, I don't buy into the "No Rules" argument as the strongest will always make rules (refer back to Thrasymachus). It's up to us to help decide whether the strongest are the many or the few. I could go on, but for now I'll leave it be as this post already seems a tad bit too long.

Please comment if you stumble across this. This is my first posting, and I'm not sure if anyone will find it.

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Nebton states

"Although I have no problem with [Ayn Rand] as an author, or even as a philosopher, I do have a problem with taking her ideas out of historical context, and attributing to them a greater worth than I think they deserve.
Ayn Rand's 'selfishness as a virtue' is not a new idea. The Greek philosopher Thrasymachus voiced a similar idea, commonly translated as 'injustice is virtue'."

Nebton's equation of 'selfishness' with 'injustice' indicates that he accepts the conventional notion of selfishness which Rand argued against in "The Virtue of Selfishness."

Justice, of course, is one of Objectivism's seven cardinal virtues, along with rationality, productiveness, pride, independence, honesty and integrity.

Rand was not taking the idea of selfishness out of a historical context. She was denying that it was in anyone's self-interest to behave unjustly, dishonestly or without integrity.

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Nebton's equation of 'selfishness' with 'injustice' indicates that he accepts the conventional notion of selfishness which Rand argued against in "The Virtue of Selfishness."

Actually, it just means I read more than just the words "selfishness" and "injustice". What Thrasymachus describes as "injustice" (or, rather, as it has been translated as "injustice") is very similar to what Rand describes as "selfishness". That's why he claims that it is "virtuous", just like Rand claims that her vision of "selfishness" is "virtuous". In other words, you're accepting the conventional notion of injustice. Don't feel too bad about that, though: I also accept the conventional notion of injustice. And, yes, I do reject Rand's notion of "selfishness", but that's not why I'm comparing these two philosophies.

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Have you read Ayn Rand's essays on ethics? Can you provide quotes to support your interpretation?

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I have read a few, but not all of her essays on ethics. I am not claiming to be an expert on her, but am mainly offering my 2 cents worth.

"Can you provide quotes to support your interpretation?"

This quote from her:

It only stands to reason that where there's sacrifice, there's someone collecting the sacrificial offerings. Where there's service, there is someone being served. The man who speaks to you of sacrifice is speaking of slaves and masters, and intends to be the master.

Sounds quite similar to the quote I gave above from Thrasymachus:
But far from saying that by nature all men are equal, they held that on the contrary men, like beasts, are naturally unequal, and what is natural is for every man to get what he can by any means.

And, although she never claims (as Thrasymachus does) that men should try to get what they can by any means, her idea of voluntarily funding governments (instead of having any form of taxation, since taxation is, after all, "immoral"), would result in the same thing. For, those funding the government control the purse strings and, ultimately, they will decide which laws to enforce. Sounds like a plutocracy to me. Explain to me how it's not.

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The reason Rand believed in voluntary taxation is because she advocated a political system in which the initiation of force has been bannished from society, a system in which government is limited to the protection of individual rights and explicitly prohibited from initiating force against any person. Under such a system, a person who attempted to bribe a government official in order to violate someone else's rights would be a criminal, and would have to be careful to cover up his crime.

Under our current system, such people operate within the law in the plain light of day. We call them lobbyists. We have made it the purpose of our government to confiscate property from the those who produce and redistribute it to various "worthy" causes, worthy being determined by lawmakers on the basis of who they need to satisfy in order to get re-elected.

I do not say that a laissez-faire system would never know corruption, but it would be recognizable as corruption, and we would have legal recourse against it.

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And who would fund the legal recourse against it? A voluntarily funded government would be inherently unstable and would either collapse to anarchy or transform to plutocracy.

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Interesting topic. I didn't realize this was your first post. Having seen your excellent comments for months now, I figured you were a regular blogger as well.

I especially liked this idea:

It's up to us to help decide whether the strongest are the many or the few.
This was the essential problem the founders of our country faced and punted that decisions to future generations to address. I think our technology may be at a place that it has caught up with our ideals.

It won't be until the unwashed masses feel connected enough to act as one that we may finally overcome this single biggest failing of the human race - an inability to create a society without strongmen.

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Thanks for the kind words. I'm not sure if technology will be our salvation here or not. I do hope so.

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Not sure if it will save us either, but I think it represents the first real chance we have had at saving ourselves from this historical merry-go-round we can't seem to get off for any extended period of time.

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Wasn't Thrasymachus' "philosophy" put forward in Plato's Republic? He was a friend of Socrates that was used as a straw man for Plato's utopian argument in the dialogue. I always remember this because of the way the name sounds when you say it and the way my professor used to say "Might is right".

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Although you're right to be skeptical of Plato's representation of him, there is also other evidence of Thrasymachus' philosophy.
The Matson text I was reading did a better job (in my opinion) of separating the historical Thrasymachus from Plato's representation of him, although how much of that was conjecture on the author's part, I cannot say for sure.

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Suffice it to say, Thrasymachus is more of a representative figure in the history of thought than a defining one. That goes back to your original point, Rand is much the same.

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You have an excellent way of putting things. Thanks for chiming in.

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Thanks for the post.

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You misunderstand Rand in several ways. Her defense of the virtue of selfishness is not at all similar to Thrasymachus’ immoralist challenge to Plato. And her “way” is not “one of no rules.”

Thrasymachus puts forward the idea that it is better to be unjust (to steal, cheat, kill—and not get caught). He claims that it is more advantageous to be unjust than to be just; that freely being able commit conventional acts of injustice is better, for the agent, than being constrained by the rules of justice and morality.

Rand argues that the proper understanding of relationship of valuing and living show that the agent is the proper ultimate beneficiary of his action (though not the sole beneficiary). That is, that in acting well (e.g. justly) one is acting in a manner that will bring about a better overall life for himself. Closely paraphrasing her words, the purpose of morality is one’s own life and happiness, but the standard of morality is what is proper to the life of rational being. This sounds a lot like Aristotle, and not at all like Thrasymachus.

Rand’s virtue of selfishness is not a guide to action; that is, one does not, on her view, act in a certain way merely because it matches one’s desire. One’s happiness is the purpose of action, but the guide to action is a rational evaluation of the situation and what the proper response is for a rational being. (Rarely, one must note, would such an evaluation support injustice: Stealing, cheating, killing.) It’s only, she argues, through this rational evaluation that one is able to achieve one’s own life and happiness.

This should show as well that Rand’s “way” is not “one of no rules.” And in terms of politics, Rand was a harsh critic of so-called anarchism. She vigorously defends rule of law and the protection of individual rights.

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You're absolutely right that I've misrepresented her literal theoretical arguments. See what I've written below, however, about how I see those theoretical arguments being put into practice to have the opposite effect of what they intend. (Just like Marx's ideas in practice don't have the effect that he intended.)

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Never, anywhere in Rand, will you find an argument for no government of no rules at all. In fact, if there was one group of people who Rand spoke very harshly about, it was anarchist libertarians who wanted "private governments".

According to Rand, the primary rule of social interaction is: respect the rights of others.

It'm not sure if you've read her fiction and misinterpreted something, or -- more likely -- got your impression of her philosophy second-hand.

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You're right that I completely misrepresented her theoretical arguments. I was substituting my logical extrapolation of her arguments for the arguments themselves, and that was sloppy of me.

Here's something she wrote in "The Virtue of Selfishness":

In a fully free society, taxation—or, to be exact, payment for governmental services—would be voluntary. Since the proper services of a government—the police, the armed forces, the law courts—are demonstrably needed by individual citizens and affect their interests directly, the citizens would (and should) be willing to pay for such services, as they pay for insurance.

What happens when payment for governmental services becomes voluntary? Those "private governments" that she (rightly) eschews, since those who control the purse strings will ultimately decide how that money is spent (e.g., to decide which laws are enforced and in what manner). Her theories just don't seem very well thought out, in my opinion.

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Rand's Objectivist ethics is the opposite of Thrasymachus' in the Republic. Objectivism holds that it is against your selfish interest to impose your will on others. (And she has good arguments to support that, but the content, not the validity, of her view is what is at issue here.) Her argument is that respecting other's rights is in one's rational self-interest. In her view, Hitler was self-sacrificial (as were his followers). Same for Al Capone and any other person who tries to treat human beings as sacrificial animals.

Also, factually, she never claimed that warnings on cigarettes were a "socialist conspiracy"--she had contempt for conspiracy theories, and she viewed government regulation of business as fascist not socialist (since the latter means nationalization of the means of production). In other words, she was not a "conservative." In fact she detested conservatives. So don't buy into the caricatures of her spread by her enemies.

Finally, she died of congestive heart failure, not cancer. (I know: I visited her daily in the hospital in her last month, and spoke with her doctor).

She was 77 when she died, and although, 7 years prior, they removed a small cancerous spot on one of her lungs, she remained cancer-free until her death.

Oh, one more thing: since you mention Matson, whom I taught with in '84 (a course on Objectivism at UC Berkeley), he would not, I think, endorse ranking Rand with Thrasymachus. He told me, "I'm 45% an Objectivist." Of course, that means the "majority interest" for him is subjectivist! :)

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First, thanks for the comments. They are appreciated.

Rand's Objectivist ethics is the opposite of Thrasymachus' in the Republic.

As I said above, I've misrepresented her theory, but I think that putting it into practice results in essentially the same thing. (Specifically, the bit about voluntary funding of the government.)
Also, factually, she never claimed that warnings on cigarettes were a "socialist conspiracy"--she had contempt for conspiracy theories, and she viewed government regulation of business as fascist not socialist (since the latter means nationalization of the means of production).

This is just what I read in The Week (along with the bit about dying from lung cancer). I cannot defend it beyond that, and have no intention to, as it was just a throw away comment (and arguably ad hominem.)
Oh, one more thing: since you mention Matson, whom I taught with in '84 (a course on Objectivism at UC Berkeley), he would not, I think, endorse ranking Rand with Thrasymachus.

Awesome. I'm really enjoying his book right now. I find it easy to read. In no way do I intend to imply that he shares my opinion about Rand (if he mentions Rand in the book, I haven't gotten to it yet). It's just that I am currently reading his book, and when I read the bit about Thrasymachus, it really reminded me of Rand, so I wrote this posting, mainly off the top of my head, so I hope you will forgive the inaccuracies. I still believe, after reading the entries here and at Dagblog, that the logical extrapolation of her philosophical theories would result in a world very much as Thrasymachus would want it. With people voluntarily funding government, I find it difficult to believe that the rich would not manipulate it even more than they already do.
As Genghis posted over at Dagblog, The Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy arrived at the same conclusion that I did (so my ideas aren't original, either).

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