That Sinking Feeling on Health Reform
News that the Senate Finance Committee will be putting forth a health care reform proposal that omits a public option and does not compel businesses to cover employees is disastrous. If this report is accurate and a bill such as this goes forth, the insurance industry will have won, yet again, and the American public will be much worse off for it.
Mostly, I feel a deep sense of regret. Another small part of me, however, chuckles at the pitiful plight of Americans so enamored by the ideology of free markets that they are willing to hurt themselves to uphold the ideal. I honestly and earnestly hate to say it but they get what they deserve.
But what do you think?
Mostly, I feel a deep sense of regret. Another small part of me, however, chuckles at the pitiful plight of Americans so enamored by the ideology of free markets that they are willing to hurt themselves to uphold the ideal. I honestly and earnestly hate to say it but they get what they deserve.
But what do you think?
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"..the pitiful plight of Americans so enamored by the ideology of free markets that they are willing to hurt themselves to uphold the ideal"
- Pitiful indeed. That's the reason why more people want to immigrate to America and not to Canada, Sweden, Australia or New Zeland.
"I honestly and earnestly hate to say it but they get what they deserve"
- I can't agree more.
July 28, 2009 8:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
That's not an argument.
July 28, 2009 8:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
Expecting something reasonable from a complete jerk is not reasonable. Ignore him.
C
July 28, 2009 9:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
I disagree, both with your specific characterization of Lalo and with the general notion that you can't talk to people you have ideological differences with.
If you hadn't interrupted, I could have pointed out to Lalo that the particular comment I highlighted is pure ideology, something that Lalo rightly criticizes other people for.
But I was waiting to see if Lalo would figure it out without me spelling it out.
Next time be more patient, and maybe Lalo will come at it from a different, more thoughtful angle.
July 28, 2009 9:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
Gasket, you ARE the best and the smartest!! Thanks for reading, as always!
However, I do think more people want to live in America than in those countries. I do believe that most of them what that because they believe that in this country you're free to be all you can be. More so than in others.
So it is ideology vs ideology. I'm pointing out that the "free market" ideology is part of something larger that an awful lot of people want to have in their lives.
What do you think?
July 28, 2009 10:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
For starters, I think you are too generous in your praise, Lalo. But of course I can't stop you from being generous. ;-)
About living in the U.S., I think that yes, more economically and politically disadvantaged people do want to come to this country compared to the other countries on that list (although that doesn't mean that the people who already live in those countries yearn to live here—something worth thinking about). It helps immensely that we are more centrally located than Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and Sweden. It's also significant to remember that we have thoroughly saturated the world with pro-America PR. I certainly like it here myself and wouldn't want to live anywhere else permanently, although I have always really, really wanted to see New Zealand. :-)
As far as free market ideologues go, I think many are often anti-immigration, which, to me, is a contradiction in their philosophy. I also find free marketers tend to ignore the many ways in which the "market" is tilted in the U.S.'s favor.
I myself am an ideologue about some things, but I try to recognize the inherent blind spots and contradictions in my ideological views and "own" them honestly. I am a work-in-progress in that regard. (In other regards too!)
How's that? I hope I answered your curiosity to some extent. Do you have further thoughts?
July 28, 2009 11:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
You know, I lived in Germany for several years as well as in Eastern Europe. I've been to many countires in Europe and Latin America. These have been wonderful trips, I learned something from each one of them. And I liked many of the places I visited, to the point of falling in love with some of them.
But there is something about this country that's magical. The genuine (naive, surely, for the cynics) belief that you can make your own life as you want it. With hard work and perseverance, you can achieve something. And despite the fact that some people want us to be "like Europe", I have to say that the Europeans I met were most often either America-haters or America-lovers. And all America-lovers, without exception, spoke about freedom from the dictat of the government, from unnecessary, degrading rules for everything, smiling yet backstabbing bureaucrats deciding your life, etc. And free market is one of the expression of the mindset like this.
That's why so many people who have a dream and want to turn it into reality want to immigrate here. And people who only want the handouts, grants and protections with risks and opportunities go to other places.
July 28, 2009 4:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
All these pretty words from Lalo still fail to establish a documented factual basis for his claim about more people wishing to immigrate to the US rather than to the other countries he mentioned. That's why it is not argument. It is bare assertion. Lalo provides no basis for it other than anecdotes, at the very best. And the burden is on Lalo to establish it, or have the claim dismissed as bogus.
July 29, 2009 2:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not making a factual assertion any more than the writer of the post makes an assertion when he says that "plight" of Americans is pitiful and that they are willing to "hurt themselves".
Oh, I forgot, it's only the liberal disdain and lack of pride in their country that doesn't require documented factual basis.
But you know all that, didn't you.
July 29, 2009 8:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
Shorter Lalo: Oops, I'm busted. I got nothin'.
July 29, 2009 8:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
That would make your comment "rhetorical"; it was misunderstood. Now your whining because someone misinterpreted your "rhetorical comment". What's good for the goose is good for the gander (this is idiomatic it has nothing to do with geese".
July 28, 2009 11:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
Okay, I finally get it. You're not informed enough to address any of the OPs at TPM, so you comment on people's comments. In other words, you're a bottom-feeder.
July 28, 2009 12:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm so sorry that Hillary lost.
July 28, 2009 12:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Canada, Sweden, Australia or New Zeland have very, very strict immigration rules. You have to prove your are more than capable of supporting your self in all cases. They don't even like retirees.
C
July 28, 2009 9:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
"They don't even like retirees"
- I wonder if that has anything to do with the fact that New Zealand spends so little on drugs in its "public" healthcare in comparison to us. Like 50% less per capita.
I suppose they have no "ideal to uphold" or are simply not willing to hurt themselves for it, right?
July 28, 2009 10:39 AM | Reply | Permalink
Could be. Or it just might be the climate. You really do have to be made of "stern stuff" to live there. Especially the South Island. My mother lived there for a while and she says that Shangrila it ain't. Cold, wet and earth quakes.
C
July 28, 2009 12:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Actually that sounds pretty close to Shangri-La!
(Another notable matter is that many countries do not consider immigrants' grandparents -- in some cases even their parents -- as "immediate family" and therefore do not have similar semi-automatic, if lengthy, process for bringing the family elders over.)
July 28, 2009 2:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
It has been assumed for many weeks by many observers of the process (including members of the other House and Senate committees drafting legislation) that the Senate Finance committee's draft would not include a public option. Don't give up, Matthew! This is not the end of the battle - this bill will be the most conservative of those put forth by the various committees, but it does not supersede them or set the final template for legislation. It must be merged with the Senate HELP bill before a floor vote, and then (assuming the House and Senate both pass their own bills) the real work of hammering out the details will proceed in the House/Senate conference committee. There are many steps in this process, and this is by no means the final one.
July 28, 2009 8:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
Also keep in mind that what we're hearing about is not the final Finance Committee bill, but a proposal from Bonehead Baucus' bipartisan working group (which is by no means the entire committee)!
July 28, 2009 8:59 AM | Reply | Permalink
Didn't Pelosi say "No public option..No Bill" or words to the effect. In other words any Bill with out this, The House will not sign on to.
C
July 28, 2009 9:11 AM | Reply | Permalink
Premature handwringing.
I think this kind of defeatism and quitting attitude is part of the Dem's problem.
How about we just get angry and harass these Blue Dog crooks every single day in the August recess?
It's like only the 5th inning and people are moping around and packign their stuff up. Cut it out!
July 28, 2009 2:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
p.s. Your post is also inaccurate. A single committees bill is not final. It will need to be reconciled with other bills and with the House ones. And anything can change there as well.
And as last resort, we have the fillibuster proof reconciliation process in October.
July 28, 2009 2:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
Most experts on Senate rules believe reconciliation will be judged inapplicable to any meaningful reform package. This means that 60 votes will be needed to pass a bill in the Senate that retains the most critical elements of reform.
July 28, 2009 11:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
We have been betrayed. It's that simple. I worked hard for Obama.
It was my mistake.
July 28, 2009 4:20 PM | Reply | Permalink
Some asshole Senator from Montana gutting this bill is Obama's fault?
July 28, 2009 7:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Only if he shows no interest in bringing the asshole Senator in line. And so far we've seen precious little evidence of such interest.
July 29, 2009 2:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
Americans aren't all that enamored of the free market and most of them favor a single payer system of health care. The problem is that our elected officials are whores who worship at the altar of the powerful and wealthy. When the Obama insurance subsidy plan fails it will not be the American people getting what they deserve. It will be the rich and powerful predators getting what they paid for: enough whores in the Senate and House to harm the health and economic future of our people and our nation.
Time for a revolution IMHO. Our economic, political and social leaders in this society are hopelessly corrupt and compromised. It's time for the people to water the tree of liberty and long overdue as far as I'm concerned.
July 28, 2009 4:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
"The problem is that our elected officials are whores who worship at the altar of the powerful and wealthy"
- Let me get this straight: elected officials are actually aliens, sent from outer space to pretend to be human, right?
Obama is an elected official, btw. Pelosi, Kerry, Kennedy are the powerful and the wealthy too, but clearly they are not americans. Perhaps they weren't even born here and rose to power under false pretences? :-)
How about a possibility, however remote, that the reason so many grand schemes, both republican and democrats, don't materialize is simply because mainstream americans don't want them?
As for the revolution, I like that idea! And I agree completely that our leaders are corrupt and compromised. And I'd the first to join you in watering the tree of liberty.
July 28, 2009 5:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Mainstream America wants a free lunch.
July 28, 2009 7:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think we make sure to send a fax to Baucus on single payer day and CC the White House maybe even Reid. I will keep fighting for health care for all no matter what happens in the first round, however many rounds that takes.
July 28, 2009 9:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Matt Taibbi on the prospects for the bill:
Emphasis mine. The first paragraph is crucial, if crudely phrased. If Obama and Rahm wanted this to get done, it would get done.
July 29, 2009 1:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
gharlane, your comment is deeply disturbing and probably precisely true, alas. Thanks for adding to the discussion.
July 29, 2009 3:03 AM | Reply | Permalink