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The Unheralded Price of the Economic Downturn


Since the economy tanked we've seen numerous metrics used to describe the effects that mortgage brokers, ratings agencies, bankers and hedge fund managers have precipitated on the nation and the world.  Some of the most common measurements are increasing unemployment rates, a significant decline in the growth rate of the Gross Domestic Product, lost value in the stock market, all accompanied by increased fears of inflation/stagflation/deflation.  Other measurements, such as human sickness and death attributable to the economic downturn, have been largely ignored to date.  Linking specific deaths and illnesses to economic conditions is difficult.  Researchers who have attempted to do this with past recessions have had to rely on measuring changes in population mortality and morbidity rates (before, during, and after economic downturns) on the assumption that changes in the population rates will correlate to an economy-wide shock, such as recession.  In time we may see statistics that quantify the impact of the current downturn on national mortality and morbidity.  A recent article in the British Medical Journal, informs us that the collapse of the Russian economy was associated with a significant increase in mortality among working age men in former Soviet countries. Similar results were indicated in a study subsequent to the restructuring of the New Zealand economy.  Counterintuitively, researchers have heretofore, found that death rates in the US actually decline during economic downturns . They surmise that in our wealthy society, economic downturns reduce exposure to risks such as drinking, smoking, obesity, driving to work, and exposure to infectious disease and work-related stress even as stress increases in other ways.  However, previous US recessions have not been as severe or widespread as the current downturn. The impact of the current economic recession may well reach a tipping point where the gains from reductions in lifestyle risk are offset by increased illness and death.


We are starting to see some leading-edge statistics that point to this.  This article describes a recent increase in suicide attempts in Charlotte, NC, which is home to Wachovia and Bank of America, two banks especially hard hit by the crisis and where the impact on employment has been particularly severe. It documents a recent rise in mental health referrals and suicide attempts over the same period last year and surmises a connection to economic factors.   On a Tuesday night in March this year 10 people were admitted to the Carolinas Medical Center in Charlotte for attempted suicides.  One of the physicians on duty expressed his belief that the increase in local suicides is related to the economy.  March 2009 correlated with the stock market hitting 12-year lows, and area unemployment had doubled over the previous year, as well as area home foreclosures spiking, with more than 1,000 filed - a first for any N.C. county in one month.  

That's the simple part of this equation.  Suicides may account for far fewer deaths as a result of the recession than deaths from other causes.  Consider the newly unemployed, many of whom may have been skating by even in the go-go economy preceding our present economic paradigm.  There will be no golden parachutes to carry them through these tough times.  If they're lucky, they have a COBRA health insurance policy for themselves and their family so long as they can continue making monthly payments at the reduced rate granted RIF terminations for the 12 months following their severance from their jobs. Of course, even at a reduced rate, it will be difficult for most to cover monthly health insurance premiums, rent or mortgage payments, car payments, and food costs out of monthly unemployment benefits. If they're a bit luckier, they'll be able to afford the undiscounted premium on that policy after 12 months when their COBRA benefits expire.  And if they're really lucky, they will have no pre-existing health conditions in the family, and as such will avoid dramatic increases in their health care programs' cost at the end of their 'grace' period with COBRA.  Even without a pre-existing condition, they are likely to see a substantial increase in their monthly premium after the first twelve months, as they are required to pay both their employer's portion of the premium as well as their own (anywhere from $1000 per month and upward for a family of four).  If they fail to meet these hurdles, you can bet that they'll be postponing, or eschewing medical treatment altogether for illnesses that may befall them.  One thing the wealthy may not understand, is that food and shelter always trump medicine.  While we can't live by bread alone, we most assuredly can't live without it. And a roof over our head, especially when it may represent our one sole investment, is something most will try to preserve at the expense of medical care.  There's a baseline, below which human stress, manifests in disease, disability, and death.  More people are going to be at or near that baseline as a result of the calamity on Wall Street.

Those who retain their jobs, but due to concern over their job security, may be scrimping by purchasing less healthy food, and again, neglecting health care, as a means of saving money in the event of a job layoff will drift closer to the edge as well.  Many small business owners may be skating by on decreased revenues and facing similar decisions.  The net result is the same.  Increasing numbers of people will slide lower and closer to that baseline beyond which their health is at risk.  

These considerations are applicable to the US and to some extent the other developed nations.  All of the other wealthy, industrialized nations have a universal health care system that will help protect their citizens from endangering their health through neglect during economic downturns.  Concurrently, the same process of attrition in actualized health care is occurring abroad in less developed countries.  One of the major differences is that in such countries, the population is already living closer to the baseline and more of them will more rapidly slip below it.  Here's a measure that may help 'quantify' this:  Singapore, the world's busiest port for container traffic, recorded a 19.6% decrease in traffic in January, followed by a 19.8% drop in February.  A roughly 35%  reduction in shipping in two months.  These containers are filled with small manufactured goods, everything from ping pong balls to furniture and electronics.  This precipitous drop in shipping correlates directly to a coinciding drop in the production of those small goods.  The drop in production likely correlates to a similar decrease in employment in the surrounding developing nations and at the loading docks in Singapore.  You can see where I'm heading with this.  A lot of people are going to be scrambling to keep their heads above that baseline thanks to circumstances that brought us our current economic fiasco.  I can't help but consider investment bankers' demands for bonuses on the heels of the meltdown, as the callous extortion of more money from a world all ready put at risk from their unregulated financial gambling.  

The so-called 'World Economy' is so intertwined, even those countries with a significant portion of their population engaged in subsistence farming will feel pressure.  Stresses on local resources will increase as factory workers move back to rural areas in order to make ends meet as jobs dry up in urban areas.  Every developed country has felt the hit as well.  Some more painfully than others, but no one has escaped unscathed from the economic meltdown.  In this case, suffering truly is universal, and people around the globe will die as a direct result of a failure to adequately regulate the financial markets in developed countries.  With the integration of world economies, we cannot afford to put the world's economic health, or ours, at risk nor risk our population's physical health at the hands of "investors" gaming the financial system.  The fact of our interdependence with the rest of the world demands we and other nations regulate financial markets and products in a meaningful way.  By that I mean that there must be full information about the structure, content, and risk of financial products and they must be priced in such a way that they reflect their structure, content and risk. The risk component in such products can no longer be allowed to be obscured.  Without such oversight, investors (as opposed to speculators) will be reluctant to invest.  Without such transparency the financial sector, which had become the powerhouse of our economy, will sputter along, unable to lend to manufacturers and small business owners, unable to fuel the innovation and commercial enterprise that have been the trademark and economic salvation of the United States since its inception.  In addition, to regulating the financial market's products, we need to monitor the ratings agencies and eliminate the financial conflicts of interest that produced their inaccurate and self-serving ratings that contributed to our current crisis.  

Now that the initial panic associated with the financial markets' collapse has abated, those responsible for the system's demise are arraying their lobbyists to resist federal intervention into their activities.  We must make sure that the laissez-faire, hands-off modality that began with Reagan in the 80s and hit its' zenith under Bush43, does not continue.  Financial innovation does however have a distinct up side.  At the same time that transparency is increased and the financial sector is policed, we should remember that, and strive to not stifle the market through overzealous regulation.  Based on what I see our legislature producing, as industry lobbyists rotate through their Capitol Hill offices, I expect 'overzealous' regulation to be a remote possibility, so free marketers take heart, (and the rest of us "en guarde").  I have no doubt the skids of our government will still respond to a thorough greasing with that special green lubricant that has always paved the way to corporate advantages. 

When a financial market successfully prices and spreads risk, it is the power generator of any capitalist economy, fostering invention, entrepreneurship, and economic growth, which benefits us all.  The key to that success in pricing is making the products transparent to their risk elements, something that has not been done to date.  We can't afford to ignore instituting smart regulation of our financial markets.  Trust in these products and the market plays a bigger role in the long term health of our economy than was at issue heretofore.  Without legislating to ensure and restore that trust, the market will scare off many investors, leaving the playing field to the speculators as the economy limps along.  Our economic as well as our physical health demand our financial market shift toward transparency.  The rest of the world demands it as well if we are to restore confidence in the market that at least partially reflects the strength and stability of the centerpiece of the worlds' international reserve currency and continue to enjoy the economic benefits that are derived thereof.  The US and the world cannot tolerate opacity in financial instruments that put our physical well being, as well as our economy at risk.

40 Comments

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Miguel, a fine post. On cable they will have hours dedicated to surviving the recession. But like that blond animal on one cable news show, real tragedy is sort of 'skimmed over'. The blond I am talking about likes to underline her ownership of seven or eight pieces of real estate. And how to save money on bank charges by keeping a minimum of 20 grand in your account...or some such.

You are talking about real tragedy. Incredible losses.

Thank you for a fine presentation again, Miguel.

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The rich just don't get it Dick. The only part of this they will understand is restoring confidence in the market, and they won't be proposing regulations in order to achieve that.

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You paint with too broad a brush. Some "rich" do get it. This includes some of the truly rich, like Warren Buffett, and others who are merely "relatively well off" such as myself.

Percentage-wise, it does not seem all that hopeful, though.

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I agree the brush is broad. I think a little populism is in order.

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The milk of human kindness is too pricey, and somewhere along the way, somehow, the Golden Rule was sold to overseas investors, melted down, and hammered into pinkie rings for our international Bonusocracy. Excellent post, dispiriting facts.

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I think it's too pricey for Americans to sit back and do nothing. That's the global businessman's position as he/she sees themselves absconding to one of those developing nations in order to conduct business. The attitude belies the reality of the size of the US market, and of the dollar as the international reserve currency, and consequent negative valuations of it will ultimately impact the moneyed class more than the working class.

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I do not really wish to take up too much time here. But who knows, this might take off.

"There will be no golden parachutes to carry them through these tough times."

I know this is simplistic. But my god, who do we read about in this country? It is the CEO whose entire company went under, while under his auspices.

And he gets a paltry 20 mill.

I admit it. I am a socialist. But I believe in a Bill of Rights at least coupled with the 14th Amendment.

I was looking at the magazine rack at the grocery store and at Target, I do not think that the so-called Christians really understand what worshiping idols means.

Why not worship the common citizen?

THE END.

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I'd settle for them just listening to what the common man has to say before they disappear into their backrooms with the lobbyists. Other than that, hold them accountable at the polls, and not just when they get caught getting a blowjob in an airport mens room.

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I got an email from my distant niece in Slovenia 4 days ago. She came and lived with me when my children were really young (daughter 5, and boys both 1) and she was 19. She and I didn't always get along at the time. I think she was amazed that I didn't wash my windows at least monthly as they do in Slovenia; that I grew vegetables in my back yard but I didn't depend on them. She basically thought I was not busy enough, and I thought she was just a misanthrope.

Fast forward 20 years -- she is actually my EX-husband's niece; she is a veterinarian in Slovenia; her first child is 6, and she just had her second attempt at in-vitro which was successful and she will have the baby in October, and then will have ONE YEAR OF FULL PAY MATERNITY LEAVE. Her partner (they never got married, although they are both Catholic) is a policeman, and he just took 3 weeks off to go to the Netherlands with her for her to study dental surgery in dogs.

OK, I will cut to the chase. First of all, I am enormously happy that Vladka thinks enough of my after all these years, and our divorce that she wants to keep up with me -- she is wonderful, and we have an enduring friendship -- I am so grateful for that.

But the big picture here -- In Slovenia parents don't have to save up for their kids to go to college; their kids take an exam, and go to the college that their scores say they can succeed in. They have generous maternity leave; they have universal health care, including in vitro care; they have great vacation time.

They have public transportation; they have never even heard of the concept of CAR POOLING! Kids play football (soccer) in the small lots, or even up and down the steps of their towns.

Finally, they have a really, really, really great standard of living. I'll stop here, because I could go on for a few more pages, but either you get what I'm saying or you don't.

Thanks, Vladka, for the wake-up call!


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I think I do. Vladka and her family are better equipped than a large portion of our own country to withstand economic impact on their health due to the recession, than a large portion of the US population by virtue of their society's adoption of universal health care. It would be interesting should our economy reach that tipping point where the negative morbidity and mortality rates become manifest in the US to compare those effects against those in some of the developing nations. We might be surprised to find our death rate to be comparable to those seemingly backward nations.

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Agree. They are also far more self-sufficient than we are. (and not in debt). She and Ales (her partner) just finished building their home. It took them 7 years. They paid for it and built it incrementally over all that time.

Let me say also, that their home is really, really nice. It has floor heating, stucco on the outside, beautiful landscaping, and very green technology within. (Also a beautiful view of the Alps out their bedroom window). I would love a house like theirs, but I don't think you could even build one here. They patiently built it over time, as all Slovenians do, and what a reward -- their very own home, that they own in every way.

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How and when did we become a third, or at least a second world country? Wake me up, please -- surely this a nightmare?

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I don't think we're quite there yet W, just pointed in that direction. We all ready have higher infant mortality and lower life expectancy than any other OECD nation. With healthcare costs predicted to reach 20% of our GDP by 2016, our competitiveness in the world market is rapidly being eroded. Hence the pundits tell us to seek jobs in the service sector, so I suppose long term employment strategies might lead one to pursue a career in hotel management, as the value of the dollar erodes and America becomes a tourist destination for world travelers in search of the best bang for their buck.

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I just wanted to add that I love Slovenia. The country and the people are stunningly beautiful and so friendly (i know cliche- but true). I have a lot of great memories and I only spent two weeks there.

Ok carry on...

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Peeg, very fine piece of work with a lot of material you had to weave together, pretty awesome. A lot of things I didnt know. Thankful to be informed Miguelito.

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Thanks DonDi. I haven't seen the effect on the public health aspect of the financial crisis addressed anywhere. Understandably, because of the scope of the work needed to draw any significant correlation.

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Nice one.

What about the oil speculators?

Gas up 45¢/gallon from May 1st to 31st.

=(

A whole lot of hurt will follow.

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Good question. That commodity has been being gamed since the days of John D. Rockefeller in the 1800s. The problem lies in oil being produced and traded largely outside the US and as such not easily controlled by US legislation, and in turn, very easily manipulated by a lot of rich guys. The upside is that gaming the oil market isn't going to catch us all in a collapsing and cascading house of cards like the financial market did, and continue to ripple out to touch just about every industry in the world.

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What in the heck is the downside?

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We all pay high prices for oil, (downside), which spurs development of alternative energy, (upside). We're at the mercy of oil speculators, (downside), which spurs development of alternate energy. I'm sure there are other downsides as well, just can't think of them at the moment.

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Besides, oil's been artificially low for a long time. Pollution, disease caused by pollution, climate change, road building and upkeep, climate changed caused by road building (one of the top CO2 emitters!), beautiful and productive land subsumed by sprawl, and other problems are covered up. If oil's price was correct, many of these problems wouldn't even be as big a factor. Oil would cost too much. To me, every increase in oil is incentive to use alternative energy sources and move closer to your work, rely less on your car, and move to a real community. But I'm getting off topic....

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There were murmurs about keeping manufacturing here when oil was at $147, which might be another benefit if higher oil prices in addition to faster development of alternative forms of energy.

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Well I just read this article, that sfcurt linked to in his latest blog, and I stand corrected on the degree to which the US can regulate, (or in this case, to choose not to regulate), the global spot oil prices. Apparently we not only have huge loopholes in our regulatory legislation governing commodity futures legislation, but also allowed futures trading in the London based ICE oil futures market to be conducted completely unregulated since Jan. 2006. At the time of the exception oil was trading at $60/bbl. Today thet price has doubled and more. Since the economic downturn, that price has dropped, and now as the money injected into the system, begins to solve the liquidity crisis, the price of oil is again on the rise even as the indication of demand remains flat. The article posits that 60% of today's oil prices are the result of speculation in the market. I'm not sure how this ties into this particular blog, but SanFernandocurt's blog seems important. As you've said before on occasion, 'JUMP FUCKERS!'.

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Miguelito,
Good post! I have often wondered if Adam Smith, the so-called "father of capitalism," would have as much confidence in the invisible hand were he alive to witness the shambles of our health care system. In his less well-known book, Theory of Moral Sentiments (Part IV, Ch 1), he marvels (and uses the "invisible hand" analogy made famous in Wealth of Nations) at the ways in which the rich "consume little more than the poor, and in spite of their natural selfishness and rapacity, though they mean only their own conveniency, though the sole end which they propose from the labours of all the thousands whom they employ, be the gratification of their own vain and insatiable desires, they divide with the poor the produce of all their improvements. They are led by an invisible hand to make nearly the same distribution of the necessaries of life, which would have been made, had the earth been divided into equal portions among all its inhabitants, and thus without intending it, without knowing it, advance the interest of the society, and afford means to the multiplication of the species."

The "selfishness," "rapacity," and "vain and insatiable desires" of the rich...and this is the father of capitalism speaking, not Karl Marx.

"Nearly the same distribution of the necessaries of life which would have been made had the earth been divided into equal portions among all its inhabitants..." Again, this is the father of capitalism, not Karl Marx, speaking.

Smith was in fact describing a sort of trickle down effect in a relatively closed economy with for the most part relatively small businesses. It was an economy that roughly corresponded to the ideal competitive market that underlies most economic theory. And in that type of economy he could have some confidence (he could see it with his own eyes) that all were made better off by the markets that were evolving...that the share of wealth held by the poor, at least for the necessaries of life, was roughly equal to that of the rich.

One thing that stands out in all of Smith's writing is that the important benefits of the market and of market activity are that they promote the public interest; that the market produced outcomes in which the welfare of others was promoted even while it was promoting the welfare of the individual. At the point where the welfare of others is no longer promoted by unregulated markets, I'm pretty sure Adam Smith would have retracted some of his enthusiasm for free markets.

More importantly, health was very different in Smith's time. It's main inputs were nutrition, exercise, leisure, and social status. Leechcraft was unlikely to make much improvement to your health so if you couldn't afford it, you might have actually been better off than your wealthier counterpart who could. Had Smith lived now, I wonder if he would have set health (or health insurance or access to health care) into a special category like education. Smith believed that the state should provide education, especially to those at the bottom of the economic pyramid, lest they lose their humanity working at repetitive and intellectually unchallenging jobs. Surely, a man so sensitive to the benefits and harms of commercial enterprise that accrued to the poor would have recognized the crucial role of health in promoting both public and individual economic and non-economic interests.

We can never know for sure what Smith would have said about health and health care, but I'm willing to bet that he would have been concerned by the links between mortality and the economy that you document in this blog post. I'm also willing to bet that he would view the US healthcare system and especially the health insurance market as giant market failures, which cannot be remedied by "free markets" or purely competitive solutions.

Good for you, Miguelito, to bring this to our attention. Let's hope this sort of discourse enters the mainstream and promotes national health insurance before the death and illness tolls start rising. Good post!

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Thanks for weighing in tuher. And thank you for pointing out that the existing state of healthcare/health insurance in the US is what can be considered an anomaly with regard to free markets and corrections by the so called invisible hand. But that's another subject. Smith's thinking "that the important benefits of the market and of market activity are that they promote the public interest " seems like a quaint notion with regard to the health insurance market in the US. As I said to CVille above, it may be interesting for an academic to compare morbidity/mortality in the US to that of less developed nations after the dust has settled from the economic crisis. We might be surprised to find the differences between the two smaller than we might expect. Thanks for commenting!

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Great linking together of these issues, Miguel. Don't know what I think of this sentence, though:

"Financial innovation does however have a distinct up side."

- I can't think of any positive financial innovations since ATM's and credit cards. The innovations in the capital markets - the various derivatives - are a net negative for transparency and stability and efficient allocation of financial resources. I also think the framing in terms of More or Less regulation is mistaken. There is a TON of rules in place in the capital markets, they are just very BAD rules.

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I'll admit, I'm not much of an economist pug, so this is the point where I usually roll over and show the pug my belly. ;) I think the idea of using hedge funds to help insulate investors from exposure to the downturns in the market, serves a purpose in stabilizing the overall market. The instruments used to accomplish that were flawed, allowing the 'gaming' that eventually reached a tipping point. Is it possible to design, and regulate a modified version of that which will actually work? Agree that more rules does not equate to better regulation. We need smart regulation that actually has some connection to the reality of today's market. We've watched the dismantling of what laws we've had on the books for decades, (Glass-Stiegel?), while no new regs have been instituted to deal with the new products that appear in the market. Therein lies another consideration: are we relegated to only institute market controls after the sh#t hits the fan as it did in the late 20s, and again in the 80s with the junk bonds, and our current demise of the financial market? Or can we make some kind of meaningful oversight of new financial products before they endanger the stability of the market?

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Looks like Brad Miller has weighed in on this issue today Obey, and largely sides with your take on the dubious merits of financial innovation.

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Thanks for the link, Miguel. I used to much more into this whole regulation debate before you guys got me interested in all these other things, and I'm not going to pretend there's an easy solution. But one thing I have become convinced of is that it's less a matter of having good financial regulation legislation passed, and more a matter of having decent regulatory institutions with a good internal culture. I mean that you can pass all the laws you want, if the financial firms have 1000x the budget of the regulatory agencies, they'll find a way to screw us all. If a novice trader is making five times more than a dept head at the SEC, the laws won't get implemented well. I don't think the agencies lacked the authority to stop the bubble/crash/fraud from happening, they were just incompetent and unwilling. You've got to have regulators who actually take their job seriously. Piling funds and authorities into the SEC won't do much good, because the institution is fundamentally corrupted. The FDIC might be saved. So i guess my rambling is getting to the following point: I'd look more at how much funding goes to regulation, and which institutions are put at the center of the ultimate setup. The rest is kabuki...

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in fact the times had a report on bank's lobbying efforts against regulation yesterday: http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/01/business/01lobby.html?hp

it seems like the lobbying has already paid off though...geithner's cds regulation plan already has a loophole for almost all cds's. hooray...

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Like I said, as industry lobbyists rotate through their Capitol Hill offices, I expect 'overzealous' regulation to be a remote possibility, so free marketers take heart, (and the rest of us "en guarde"). Thanks for the heads up montcalm.

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Thanks for weighing in tuher. And thank you for pointing out that the existing state of healthcare/health insurance in the US is what can be considered an anomaly with regard to free markets and corrections by the so called invisible hand. But that's another subject. Smith's thinking "that the important benefits of the market and of market activity are that they promote the public interest " seems like a quaint notion with regard to the health insurance market in the US. As I said to CVille above, it may be interesting for an academic to compare morbidity/mortality in the US to that of less developed nations after the dust has settled from the economic crisis. We might be surprised to find the differences between the two smaller than we might expect. Thanks for commenting!

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No judgment on either of these, just related food for thought:

More Americans turning to Peace Corps
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-peacecorps2-2009jun02,0,2239945.story

Frugality turns fashionable as recession hits the wealthy
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-westsideecon2-2009jun02,0,4956740.story

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It is beyond evident that the U.S. Congress needs to institute strong regulation of the business sector.

They won't. Not Obama and not any any democrat and not any republican. If it doesn't serve the interests of the parties or their members it will not happen.

Our political parties depend upon the crooks who have so messed up the global economy. They need them to get elected. Wall Street would go nuts if they were forced to revert to a past where they weren't able to skim off the cream. They are fighting to keep derivatives trading out of an exchange where it would be visible and regulated. They want no part of giving up a nickel of profit no matter how unethical the method of obtaining it and no matter the consequences. They know government will never do a thing.

The same holds true for single payer health care. It'll never happen. Insurers and HMO companies, who invented the scheme, make scads of money under that scheme and they'll bribe (make political contributions) every congressperson if that's what it takes to keep the present system.

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I agree that the legislature is easily bought and that we're out-gunned on that front by both the insurance industry and the financial industry. The only way we will make progress is through activism, and holding our elected representatives accountable at the ballot box. I'd also like to limit terms in the legislature, though that might backfire, in the form of the bastids stealing as much money as possibble in the time allotted, kind of like one of those '3 minute shopping sprees' where the contestant sprints through the supermarket loading his/her cart with as much loot as possible in the allotted time.

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Wow. Please don't take this as bragging, but I feel for Americans as pertaining to health care. How do you afford the premiums you pay?. We raised five children here in Canada, and never has the cost of care crossed my mind, as a result of this freedom, we were able to see our children become a doctor, a principal, a teacher with the second boy entering law school in the fall, my youngest daughter is planning on following in her brothers footsteps and becoming a doctor. Universal health care will put money in the pockets of your citizenry. I believe the U.S. has done a great deal to and for the world, I only hope that we are not witnessing America's last throes. Stand up America. Shine once again, because you can/

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I think it is the biggest glaring deficiency in the United States' medical 'infrastructure' that we lack a universal health care program. It wasn't a big issue until the early 90s when it became obvious that our healthcare costs are expanding exponentially, and is only getting support now, as it threatens American competitiveness in the world economy. In the early 90s those costs were estimated to account for about 7% of our GDP. The White House just released a 58 page report today, that estimates our current healthcare costs to equal 18% of GDP, and projected to reach 34% of GDP by 2035. It's imperative that we get this right for more than one reason.

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A good bit of analysis miguelitoh02!

In a supportive vein, I highly encourage folks to read Nick Turse's "A Silent (and Violent) Epidemic" (also listed as "econocide" on some sites -such as Truthout).

In that vein, I quite simply don't care where the "monied folks" choose to "invest." I further don't care about regulations being "overzealous." That money they have to invest is BLOOD MONEY. It is also OUR money. They should not have it and they should not get to keep it and by god they certainly shouldn't have the opportunity to INVEST it to make more money on the backs of to population of the planet!

Sorry. Sore spot with me. I'm not a capitalist and the socialists won't have me either.

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Hey Rowan, I'm with you. I just read this article which addressed a lot of questions I've entertained about our expansionist economy and the fractional reserve banking system which we've accepted as given in mod-day-soc. One of the points that Nate Hagens makes is the disparity between workers salaries and business executive salaries, often reaching a ratio of 500:1, and the effect that has on our being able to attain a 'steady state' economy. These are questions I've wondered about for years, but through my own laziness haven't researched. The lecture addresses questions which I think we need to bring into the mainstream of discussion along with pollution, balance of trade, resource allocation, and a host of other issues that Hagens visits in the lecture. Give it a read, and let me know what you think.

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I think that Herman Daly raises some excellent critiques and insights, but there are things that make me uncomfortable in his ten "candles." While I need more time to digest and reflect on his suggestions, he seems to be balancing on some hypothetical edge between a competitive capitalist model and a modified capitalist model. In some ways this is stated more indirectly than directly - his explanation of cap and trade for example - the commons being sold into private hands and then traded by third parties. Also he holds onto the concepts of patents. Patents serve one purpose and one purpose alone - to provide an entity the exclusive right for commercial exploitation.

It seems, that Daly is arguing a "tweaking" (and some areas a major tweaking) of the exiting global economic structure. However, as with the current model, it leaves out major components. For example, how does one value and compensate things that do not enter the formal economic loop. The three things that jump immediately to mind are subsistence agriculture; the current unpaid work of women (mothering, sewing, cooking, etc) which is excluded from all formal models including Daly's; and "creative" contributions.

Like most economic models, it focuses on one social institution - the economy - and defines the world through that lens. I find this basic approach as being both self-limiting, and overall damaging. The process of commodification itself is abhorrent in many ways. Placing an economic value on forests, or rivers, or fish, or humans, or genetic material, or life itself, seems to miss the point a bit. Many "things" are of "value" beyond monetary or economic value.

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miguelitoh2o

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  • Location Rocky Mountain states
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  • Favorite Blogs http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/ http://www.shavemyyeti.com/
  • Favorite Books Authors: Robertson Davies, Isaac Asimov, Bill Bryson, Margaret Atwood, Michael Connelly, Salmon Rushdie.
  • Favorite Quotes A good traveler has no fixed plans, and is not intent on arriving. Lao Tzu Every now and then when your life gets complicated and the weasels start closing in, the only cure is to load up on heinous chemicals and then drive like a bastard from Hollywood to Las Vegas ... with the music at top volume and at least a pint of ether. - Hunter S. Thompson To me, boxing is like a ballet, except there's no music, no choreography, and the dancers hit each other. - Jack Handey "If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough" - Mario Andretti 'Somebody at one of these places ... asked me: "What do you do? How do you write, create?" You don't, I told them. You don't try. That's very important: not to try, either for Cadillacs, creation or immortality. You wait, and if nothing happens, you wait some more. It's like a bug high on the wall. You wait for it to come to you. When it gets close enough you reach out, slap out and kill it. Or if you like its looks you make a pet out of it. - Charles Bukowski

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Since I was a kid, I've always favored dogs and more especially, underdogs. Career in the arts by way of biology/pharmaceuticals. Currently trying to make my way in the world by making balloon animals, although the competition is fierce now that the official unemployment rate has topped 10%.

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