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Krugman was completely wrong


In a June 27, 2008 OpEd Paul Krugman wrote an article arguing that speculation in oil markets was not driving the huge price rise.  He specifically called out Michael Masters as a an "expert" that congress was listening to only because they liked what he had to say.

Tonight's 60 Minutes piece on Oil speculation presents a pretty compelling case that Michael Masters was exactly right and speculation was indeed the main driver of the ridiculous $150/barrel price we saw this past summer.  It doesn't take a nobel price winning economist to realize that there's no way the price rollercoaster of the past year had anything to do with supply and demand.  Is Krugman going to argue that there's 2/3 less oil demand than there was 6 months ago and that the precipitous drop started happening exactly at the same time that the Wall Street banks collapsed?

It's pretty obvious that Krugman was wrong.  Krugman's opinions are currently taken as gospel by many of the left.  This is a note of warning.

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What? Krugman wrong? oh boy, you're going to get it for pointing this out. Have you read his op-ed for today?

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Yes, and as usual he's pulling his punches -- that is, he's refusing to say when he believes the economy, if his prescription were followed, would return to "full employment" and allow us to stop seeking to induce demand spending by government action.

I'm thinking it'll be near ten years before U6 gets close to where it was in 2007. That means Krugman's looking for large government consumption for a long, long time.

But he isn't saying.

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I loved the conclusion of his Dec 16th post here at TPM:

"That's where things get complicated: a lower US trade deficit means lower surpluses and/or higher deficits elsewhere. Who's the counterpart to our adjustment? OK, the Middle East, which no longer has its oil windfall. But China is having its own slowdown, as is Japan. In other words, trying to figure out where we go from here is a sort of global jigsaw puzzle -- and I haven't managed to solve it yet. In the end I think we will work it out...."

I think he's trying to grow a 3rd arm.

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Government spending increases for the long term are Krugman's Raison d'Etre, and (although he doesn't mention it) they're also self-fulfilling.

Incidentally, anyone who takes 60 Minutes seriously on economics needs to do some hard thinking about their media habits. Commodities markets are prone to bubbles like anything else, and back in the summer it still appeared that industrial development in China and elsewhere would go on forever. Supply was tight, and energy is price inelastic.

Not that there wasn't speculation going on; of course there was. Speculation wasn't what drove the price up though; ever-increasing demand (and expectation of demand) was.

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What is the difference between speculating, and the "expectation of demand"?

What the people, we the people, really should take into account is how, because the prices reached critical mass and people actually drove less, prices immediately followed. Demand fell and prices fell with them. It was a beautiful thing. It's hard to talk about it now that prices are back to where they were years ago, but what is it they say about history.

Sometimes I question whether I should save fuel for the environment. Then I say yes because I simply would like a cleaner environment, whether it is actually in jeopardy or not, this planet is my living room. Why dust it up?

But I also say, If I use less fuel, then the oil companies make less. Now I walk whenever I can. F*ck 'em!!!

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Great point, Gregor. Why cater to the oil companies?

And you are right about price driving economy. Which is why I argued in an old post that we need to establish a floor in fuel prices (probably @$4/gallon for gasoline) if we are ever going to get serious about developing renewable alternatives.

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Well, Krugman didn't rule it out. He did point out that there were other factors involved, and I don't think he was wrong about that.

He didn't like that Congress agreed that it was ALL because of the speculators, an that we could "wish" it all away.

I noticed prices are creeping up again, and we have tankers floating around waiting for the price to come up, and it probably will.

In the long term, I think you'll find that Krugman may have been off, but he wasn't totally wrong.

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Right!

A savvy economist never rules anything out. Which is why Harry Truman prayed for a one armed economist. He was tired of "on the one hand but on the other hand" explanations and advisements economists make their living on.

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Perhaps Obama could settle for a one-eyed blogger?

;-)

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But that is largely what was missing from the Bush Administration.

I missed the 60M show but read the transcript. Talk about dumb one-handedness!

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Heh, Ellen, sometimes you just... rock.

I will say that I was always pretty sure it was another enron style raid on the Middle Class, but Krugman isn't omnipotent, and his failures shouldn't be screamed about more than his successes.

Or maybe they should be. He does get the 'big bucks'.

Heh.

Are we human, or are we (er) financiers

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I am quite certain that it was a combination of relatively thin marginal supply (vs demand) and speculation, myself.

(These are the same conditions that applied in California when it got Enron'ed.)

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Krugman wrong, OMG say it ain't so. He wasn't alone, he had a lot of company. Krugman is a excellent economist, but does this always make him right? No. I have yet to see an economist that is right all the time.

As far as the left believing what he says is gospel. On the issue of speculation I think a many didn't agree with him on this one. At least what I was reading in the blogs didn't agree.

Now in the spirit of full disclosure I was one who didn't think it was all due to speculation, after seeing the 60 Minutes piece last night I am willing to say I might be wrong. And I'll take the appropriate verbal lashing for it.

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The news story completely missed the point.

Supply and demand? That doesn't properly describe oil. It's really extraction and demand. Our oil supply (unlike, say, wheat) is finite. And in 2005, we've extracted 1/2 of it from the ground -- and remember that's the easy half.

This fact of peak oil is nowhere folded into this story. Yes, it's true that hedge fund owners speculated in the price -- known at the time -- and it's also true that when the market came crashing down, margin calls forced the price to come crashing down.

However: economists know nothing of how the price of a truly finite commodity will be determined especially with a growing need. With the growing human population, world-wide demand is going up (even if, say, in the US per capita demand is going down... for a short period of time). The bumps and wiggles on the price look large for us, but you have to take the big picture into view. (Look here to see the last few years included.) Since the 19th century, the price of oil is relatively constant -- because there was "plenty of it". Except for the blip in the 70's due to OPEC cutback and the fact that the US was no longer the swing producer the price spiked until the Alaska Pipeline and the North Sea oil fields stabilized things.

What is missing in that story is that sometime in 2007-2008 Saudia Arabia was no longer the swing producer -- that role went to... Russia. Scared yet? If not, read how Putin quickly tried to wield petroterrorism on Europe as soon as it happened.

On top of this, oil is priced in dollars and dollars are based on trust (other governments trust us to pay off our debt). So, you also need to fold into this story: what is the value of the thing that oil is being priced in?

Finally, the subtle implication in the story is that markets are efficient on a day-to-day basis. This isn't true at all as most people know (if it were, it's wouldn't be possible to get a stock at a good price). All investment in the stock market is speculative. It's not the wiggles in the market that count -- it's the long term trend.

Now that we are peaking in our world wide reserves and start the slide down the other side, it's possible for the "butterfly effect" to take hold in the price of oil. But expect to see it continue to rise in the longer term. As soon as our economy starts rolling again, for example, the price will jump. When that happens, the economy will take another hit, etc.

It's going to be a very rough ride but whatever the ride, the ending will be the same: control of oil resources will be the major factor in geopolitics -- and the price will continue to rise painfully.

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How exactly did they determine the total quantity of oil in the world? How do you know we've extracted half? You don't. That's why they can get away with all the bullshit.

As long as they allow people to speculate on oil like it's a derivative financial instrument instead of purchase oil for delivery, we will always get screwed. Require anyone purchasing oil to take physical delivery and it becomes a supply and demand market again. It's the players who take huge profits off the top by using massive cash reserves to tie up supply - while adding nothing of value - that are driving the price of oil.

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You are way off base here, KGB.

I suggest you look at
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubbert_peak_theory

It's also well know that discovery is also peaklike curve...and world discovery peaked in the mid-60s.

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He is most definitely NOT way off base.

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I'm just waiting for everyone who bought the "ethanol plants drove global food prices through the roof" line to start with their apologies. The prices of 100+ food commodities rose (including fish and rice), and somehow a few dozen ethanol plants were to blame?

And no one smelled that there might be some self-interested parties who wanted to push this story? Sheesh.

As for oil, ct states it simply, above. Supply and demand WERE tighter, and there was enormous speculation (along with other factors, such as currency swings.) Might supply and demand grow tight in the future? Ask China.

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Not only that, but ethanol doesn't use food stock. It uses feeder stock, much of which ends up as high fructose corn syrup or unhealthy meat. I say we need to take more of that "corn" out of the global food supply if we want to live longer. Not that I believe ethanol is the way to do that, just riffing on your point.

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Let me get this straight: Krugman believes one thing and 60 Minutes believes the opposite, therefore Krugman is wrong?

Looks like Krugman's criticism of Obama's stimulus plan has some scrambling to discredit Krugman.

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Dude.

It's only been 3 days since you got savagely trucknutted.

Donno if I'd be resurfacing quite yet.

And also. Butte secks.

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Also.

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Krugman was wrong because a TPM commenter named miguel says so. LOL.

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quinn, people have no idea what you are talking about, therefore your claim that I was "savagely trucknutted" will be seen as coming from a person who hate me and who for some reason can't explain how I was "savagely trucknutted". Was it in my 10-rec post or my 12-rec one? And can u state the name of the person who "savagely trucknutted" me so I can prove to you that It was in fact I who "savagely trucknutted" my opponents in all of my recent threads? I have no match here.

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Ack!

Don't make me get Wonkette back here, young person.

Geez.

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I don't get it. When was Wonkette here?

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Dude. 3 days ago. They went wild on your "gossip" post (the 12 REc one.) Do you mean you were the only person here who DIDN'T see it? Anyway, here.

They were pretty goodnatured, actually, and helped spread those fabulous terms, "Truck Nutz" and "Butte Sekks" and some Palin'isms. Thus, my reference above wasn't to some one-to-one argument you had, or any personal hatred, but rather, to the Wonkette invasion.

And also. ;-)

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ROTFLMAO!!

(And I never use that term.)

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I donno, 99. I'm sure a lot of people get posts with 158 comments & never notice.

"I have no match here." Followed 42 minutes later by "When was Wonkette here?"

You can't make it up.

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Plus 4 (four) quotations of "savagely trucknutted" in the same comment.

I'm peeing. Must stop.

Butt sekks.

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I think it's the fact Krugman has been talking out of his ass nonstop since he got the Nobel prize that have people savagely attacking him. I'd imagine 60 Minutes will be interviewing people with as much expertise as Krugman (and likely more) to establish their premise.

It's like because he was awarded a prize for one very specific piece of research, that suddenly he's a sage on all topics. He didn't even come up with any new ideas. He came up with more precise math to model the positive effects of what people have been doing since the 1700s. I would like to know why this qualifies him - over others - on the causal factors of the price of oil or the best ways to jump start an entire economy wracked by the effects of the over-speculation that Krugman apparently denies exists in the first place.

It's also important to note that critics of his work have complained that it only draws on supporting examples and doesn't account for regressive applications of the theory or instances of documented failures. In terms of the prize given for his mathematics modeling this is an irrelevant issue, but if we are going to suddenly put this guy as point-guard for our entire economic stimulus; it needs to be noted he tends to ignore any information that doesn't support the ideas he is advancing.

[Trucknutz]

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Oh for the love of God!!! Get real!!!

If there were such a thing as an omnipotent economist he'd never be writing in the NYT or accepting Nobel prizes. He'd be anonymously sequestered in some undisclosed location being paid bazillions by his mega-rich benefactors. We'd all marvel at how the hedge funds paying this genius always turn higher profits (beginning to sound familiar and a little nauseating).

Has Paul Krugman ever been wrong? Gee, I don't know, is he published in the Times and donning white-tie in Stockholm?

The guy is just a smart, well spoken expert on economics, especially of the Keynsian sort. Hardly an oracle or fortune teller. Take a listen to what he says, along with other smart well-spoken experts, and draw your own conclusions. Seems like the direction the president-elect is taking.


Turn this into religion and we can all guess where the discussion is headed.

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Being omnipotent is not so bad, but these bazillion dollar cheques everywhere are beginning to bug me, my desk is buried in 'em.

I'd hire someone to collect and cash 'em, if I could find the phone under all these pizza boxes.

Hello? HELLO? Is this phone broken? HELLOOOOOOOO!

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It's no coincidence that when the hedge funds were forced to take their leverage down that commodities prices fell as well. But that doesn't mean that there isn't a huge supply demand imbalance for oil that is looming once economic conditions improve.

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Not to defend Krugman, but here is another perspective critical of the 60-Minutes segment.

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/2009/01/oil-speculation/

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Well, Ethanol is a bad policy whether or not it raises food prices; it just isn't efficient or clean, and you'd like something that the government spent billions promoting to eb one or the other.

I'm not Krugman's biggest fan either, but he was absolutely correct about oil prices.

And to answer your question, M., there really isn't a difference. But Krugman was right that unless speculators were holding oil "off the market" they couldn't affect prices. And there wasn't any indication that they were doing that at the time (still isn't). Demand is down, and expectations of future demand are down. So prices are down.

It's a market story, not a market manipulation story.

Yes, there was rampant speculation. No, that wasn't why prices spiked.

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unless speculators were holding oil "off the market" they couldn't affect prices
There are two ways you can hold something "off the market", though: "physical withholding", where the item is simply unavailable (because you have stashed it in your storage bin, for instance); and "economic withholding", where you have raised the price high enough that people simply do not buy it. The second is a losing strategy in the long run, but can work for you in the short run. If you have done your hedging correctly, you can be in just for the short run. (The problem is, the profits you make will tend to tempt you to repeat it, and eventually you are in for the long run after a whole series of short runs. This is what happened to the hedge funds.)
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Actually, I despise all the use of the term speculation. To my eyes, when a large pool of money moves into any asset class it can have the effect of making demand appear higher than it really is otherwise. That's can be more than speculation, that can also be MANIPULATION. I think it was a conscious effort to drive commodity prices higher in order to destabilize the market. You can call me conspiracy theorist if you want to but the evidence right under your noses. Legislature was passed to allow those uninvolved in using the oil product for production purposes to trade it. That was the key to the bubble. There was a conscious effort to swindle billions.
We need a revolution, "French Style". I'm sick and tired of wealthy people gaming everyone around and then telling their victims it's the victims fault. I want a reckoning, and I want it now.

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And also.

Grab yer pitchforks, plebians!!

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We need a revolution, "French Style".

You do realize that the "French Style" revolution had a way of killing everyone -- even those that started the revolution:

The victims of the Reign of Terror totaled approximately 50,000. Among people who were condemned by the revolutionary tribunals, about 18 percent were aristocrats, 6 percent clergy, 4 percent middle class, and 72 percent were workers or peasants accused of hoarding, evading the draft, desertion, rebellion, and other purported crimes.
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yea, I know it's heavy bravado but someone needs to wake the fuck up. I'm not using the term in literal sense of but in the mythical sense that the aristocrats paid a heavy prices for their abusive ways. Technicalities aside corporate operators are sucking the life out of the working class. As I see it going to come down to corporations killing off hugh swaths of lower class people.

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They always say that when their necks start itching. They forget, we outnumber them.

Same jerks. Different Century. Stick to your guns.

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That would go a long way toward alleviating this overpopulation problem you keep going on about. Why so resistant?

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You guys should decide what you think about the French. We already have some pretty firm opinions up here, but one day you're all, "Oh, the French are Nancy-boys who're afraid to fight," and the next it's "They're homicidal maniacs who'll kill everyone in their path. Run away! Run away! It's Robespierre!"

Besides, Reign of Terror, War on Terror, it's too much keeping all this Terror straight.

Oh. And can I stop saying "Freedom Fries" now? The kid at McDonalds says he'll give me 30 cents off if I'll just "drop that shit."

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I'm sticking with Nancy boys. Have you seen the pants they wear?

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No. Have you?

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Ok, nice, so that's the boyfriend.

But I thought we were talkin' about the French?

Pointe... moi.

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I love the French. The guillotine was so, well, green! I mean it was totally off the grid AND affordable!

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He's not really resistant to the idea, he's just pretending to be of the highest moral quality. Deep in his heart an Ayn lurks waiting to come out.

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Is Krugman going to argue that there's 2/3 less oil demand than there was 6 months ago and that the precipitous drop started happening exactly at the same time that the Wall Street banks collapsed?

Uh... price does not generally vary linearly with demand.

If demand increases above supply (or supply drops below demand), then prices rise until demand drops enough or supply rises enough so that they match each other. The opposite happends when demand decreases below supply (or supply increases above demand).

If there is limited ability to alter consumption or production to reflect price changes (or if it is difficult to alter such behavior in the short-term), then price spikes and drops will be greater, because behavior will not adjust to an equilibrium state without a greater incentive.

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