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   <title>miesjhel&apos;s Blog</title>
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   <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/miesjhel//1694</id>
   <updated>	2009-05-12T00:34:14Z	2009-05-12T00:34:14Z	2009-05-12T00:20:39Z		2009-05-12T00:03:00Z		2009-05-11T23:03:09Z	2009-05-11T22:41:03Z	2009-05-11T22:38:36Z	2009-05-11T22:22:14Z	2009-05-11T22:19:50Z	2009-05-11T22:17:20Z	2009-05-11T22:14:47Z	2009-05-11T22:11:53Z	2009-05-11T22:05:49Z	2009-05-11T21:07:25Z	2009-05-11T21:06:18Z			2009-05-11T20:59:54Z	2009-05-11T20:48:15Z	2009-05-11T20:44:30Z	2009-05-11T20:43:44Z	2009-05-11T20:42:31Z	2009-05-11T20:29:39Z	2009-05-11T20:24:38Z		2009-05-11T20:10:57Z	</updated>
   
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            <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/miesjhel//1694.269766-comment:3464025</id>
		    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/miesjhel/2009/05/healthcare-how-the-public-opti.php#c3464025" />
		
		    <title>miesjhel Commented on Healthcare, how the public option counter arguments clash with logic. by miesjhel</title>
		        
			<published>2009-05-12T00:34:14Z</published>
			   <updated>2009-05-12T00:34:14Z</updated>
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		        <![CDATA[<p>I know the arguments are weak but their not mine their the republicans...</p>]]>
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	<entry>
		
	<title>miesjhel recommended Healthcare, how the public option counter arguments clash with logic. by miesjhel</title>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/miesjhel/2009/05/healthcare-how-the-public-opti.php" />
   <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2009:/talk/blogs/miesjhel//1694.269766</id>
  <published>2009-05-11T22:49:46Z</published>
   <updated>2009-05-11T23:34:30Z</updated>
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	<title>miesjhel recommended A Discussion of Gay Marriage by Zipperupus</title>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/zipperupus/2008/12/a-discussion-of-gay-marriage-1.php" />
   <id>tag:www.talkingpointsmemo.com,2008:/talk/blogs/zipperupus//2928.249275</id>
  <published>2008-12-23T17:47:48Z</published>
   <updated>2008-12-23T17:51:04Z</updated>
	</entry>
	






	
        
			<entry>
            <id>tag:www.talkingpointsmemo.com,2008:/talk/blogs/miesjhel//1694.249012-comment:3320874</id>
		    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/miesjhel/2008/12/how-the-dutch-got-to-accept-ga.php#c3320874" />
		
		    <title>miesjhel Commented on How the dutch got to accept gay marriage, and what you can learn from it. by miesjhel</title>
		        
			<published>2008-12-20T18:14:31Z</published>
			   <updated>2008-12-20T18:14:31Z</updated>
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		        <![CDATA[<p>I think that the shortest route to gay marriage is not calling al marriages civil union's. I know calling gay "marriages" civil unions and straight marriages just marriages ism not full equallity. but taking the term marriage away from evangelicals will give the rightwing a way to mobilize a lot of people who are persuadable by our side if we keep the term marriage, its not accepting less then full eqaully as an end solution its just the first step! And it will take so much away from the arguments used by the right that it will totally shift the debate.</p>

<p>But i know accepting less then full equallity is betrayal in the eyes of much of the left... And morally they are right, i'm just saying the pragmatist route is the shortest route to full equallity...</p>]]>
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            <id>tag:www.talkingpointsmemo.com,2008:/talk/blogs/miesjhel//1694.249012-comment:3320869</id>
		    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/miesjhel/2008/12/how-the-dutch-got-to-accept-ga.php#c3320869" />
		
		    <title>miesjhel Commented on How the dutch got to accept gay marriage, and what you can learn from it. by miesjhel</title>
		        
			<published>2008-12-20T18:05:42Z</published>
			   <updated>2008-12-20T18:05:42Z</updated>
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		        <![CDATA[<p>You see pir_anha consensus, social justice and pragmatism might seem built into dutch society but these concepts have been under very heavy strain for the last few years. </p>

<p>Consensus and pragmatism in the late 90's is what has lead the dutch to not deal with our problems we experience with imigration and minorities (both problems caused by bigotry and problems with upward social mobility and intergration into society of minorities.). In those years a social-democratic and liberal (that is right wing in our country...) party ruled and could not formulate a consensus opinion about minority policies and like pragmatist do in such a sitiuation, they agreed to disagree and ignored the problem. This meant that everybody who even tried to talk about these problems was being called a bigot, no matter how nuanced their critique of policy was...</p>

<p>This lead to a swining to the right in the following elections. The left screamed racism every time a politician called attention to minorities doing bad in school or failing to get a job. So these liberal politicians (thats rightwing in the netherlands) where being equated with Neo-Nazi's even though in the US they would be considered socialist or liberal (pro-choice, anti-gun, smaller military, etc etc...).</p>

<p>so make no mistake, in the netherlands we are very capable of culture war like politics... Hell our culture war has kind started all over again (after being "won" by the left after the 60's). Whille left thinking dominated dutch politics after the 70's the biggest party was always the cristian party, so they had to lead in a coalition either with liberal's or socialists, this is what forced pragmatism and consensus politics into the dutch parliament.</p>

<p>I know from a US perspective these issue's such as gay marriage seem "all or nothing" issue's. Either you are moraly right (pro) or your a biggot (against). But the thing with this wholle new Obama pragmatism is that it won't work that way on some issue's. Key to making this way of thinking is placing yourself into the oppositions mind. So lets try!</p>

<p>Lets place ourselfs in the mind of a person against gay-marriage, lets say his name is joe the evengelical christian. Nou our joe lives in a small town and doesn't know any gays (he probably does but those gays don't tell joe...). Much like a gay frien of mine find hetero sexual sex sickening (when imagening participating in it...) Joe's vivid imagination of gay sex makes him sick (based on the time he exidentally entered a gay porn site when his wife was out of town for a week and he was lookin' for some nice straight internet porn.). Joe just can't get his head around the thought of two grown men doing that stuff volutarally... So Joe associates being gay with thing he wants nothing to do with at al! So like his pastor tells him to he opposes gay marriage. Now if their where to be civil unions, and gay people would have the same legal rights as married couples, Joe would see that the world around him didn't change. Joe discovers he is still himself, Joe discovers that thinking about having gay sex still doesn't appeal to him and Joe discovers that allowing Gays rights didn't change anything for him. This leads Joe to lose intrest in activly opposing gay rights since allowing them right didn't change his world in the least bit! This gives poeple who at this point think giving gays equal rights will not change their world into a pace they can't have their trusted and tried place in.</p>

<p>To me personally giving gays equall rights is the only moral thing to do. Any solutiuon that doesn't give them full equal rights is a wrong one, that being said i don't give a fuck whether its called marriage or a civil union. The first and formemost thing is the equallity under the law. I also have a strong prefarence for calling it marriage for every couple gay or straight, but giving it a different name for a period will give people who think the whole thing will change their world time to discover it didn't change their world!</p>]]>
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	<entry>
		
	<title>miesjhel recommended How the dutch got to accept gay marriage, and what you can learn from it. by miesjhel</title>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/miesjhel/2008/12/how-the-dutch-got-to-accept-ga.php" />
   <id>tag:www.talkingpointsmemo.com,2008:/talk/blogs/miesjhel//1694.249012</id>
  <published>2008-12-20T13:27:47Z</published>
   <updated>2008-12-20T13:53:09Z</updated>
	</entry>
	






	
        
			<entry>
            <id>tag:www.talkingpointsmemo.com,2008:/talk/blogs/miesjhel//1694.247676-comment:3312638</id>
		    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/miesjhel/2008/12/losing-the-initiative.php#c3312638" />
		
		    <title>miesjhel Commented on Losing the initiative by miesjhel</title>
		        
			<published>2008-12-12T11:11:37Z</published>
			   <updated>2008-12-12T11:11:37Z</updated>
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		        <![CDATA[<p>Well the failing of two major autocompanies before the end of the year will take the attention of Blago.... But you have to be a real hardcore politico to see that as an advantage... Lets hope restructuring will save a lot of jobs for Detroit... Trust me this Blago thing will disapear of the frontpage if hudereds of thousands of people are sent home without pay...</p>]]>
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            <id>tag:www.talkingpointsmemo.com,2008:/talk/blogs/miesjhel//1694.247676-comment:3312317</id>
		    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/miesjhel/2008/12/losing-the-initiative.php#c3312317" />
		
		    <title>miesjhel Commented on Losing the initiative by miesjhel</title>
		        
			<published>2008-12-11T21:58:54Z</published>
			   <updated>2008-12-11T21:58:54Z</updated>
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		        <![CDATA[<p>I agree the media and the right sniping is no problom for the PE, but if Blago doesn't disapear soon it will take valuable attention, time and energy from the PE. The sooner this guy is removed from office the sooner he disapears from the frontpage.</p>]]>
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            <id>tag:www.talkingpointsmemo.com,2008:/talk/blogs/miesjhel//1694.247676-comment:3312131</id>
		    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/miesjhel/2008/12/losing-the-initiative.php#c3312131" />
		
		    <title>miesjhel Commented on Losing the initiative by miesjhel</title>
		        
			<published>2008-12-11T20:10:48Z</published>
			   <updated>2008-12-11T20:10:48Z</updated>
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		        <![CDATA[<p>No you don't know that, i am a huge Obama fan and am absolutly convinced he didn't have any conection to it whatsoever, but i can't claim that i KNOW he's not in any way involved.</p>]]>
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	<entry>
		
	<title>miesjhel recommended Losing the initiative by miesjhel</title>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/miesjhel/2008/12/losing-the-initiative.php" />
   <id>tag:www.talkingpointsmemo.com,2008:/talk/blogs/miesjhel//1694.247676</id>
  <published>2008-12-11T11:37:27Z</published>
   <updated>2008-12-11T12:04:31Z</updated>
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			<entry>
            <id>tag:www.talkingpointsmemo.com,2008:/talk/blogs/tblake//4430.247501-comment:3310301</id>
		    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/tblake/2008/12/a-psychologist-critiques-econo.php#c3310301" />
		
		    <title>miesjhel Commented on A Psychologist Critiques Economists by Tom Hollenbach</title>
		        
			<published>2008-12-10T14:35:10Z</published>
			   <updated>2008-12-10T14:35:10Z</updated>
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		        <![CDATA[<p>As a fellow psychologist (psychometrician actually) I share your thoughts about their false assumptions. </p>

<p>These assumptions can be seen in chemistry as well where they see gas molecules as dot's and there is even an aproximation of when their laws stop discribing a gas (when there are very few particles the individual behavior of the particles becomes of concern...). </p>

<p>The assumptions used in modern economics are a starting point for "ideal" aproximations for group behavior in the economy. (chemists call their gas laws "ideal gas laws".) Solving the problems of economy sould be centered around fine-tuning their assumptions to incorporate odd but systematic ways in which humans diverge from rational behavior. they should also adopt a minimum population size for aplying their "laws". Since the smaller the population the bigger the impact of individiual diverging from a law.</p>]]>
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	<title>miesjhel recommended Belgian blogger got fired from NY job for writing about Belgian secretary of defence by miesjhel</title>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/miesjhel/2008/11/belgian-blogger-got-fired-from.php" />
   <id>tag:www.talkingpointsmemo.com,2008:/talk/blogs/miesjhel//1694.246211</id>
  <published>2008-11-30T19:49:44Z</published>
   <updated>2008-11-30T20:36:40Z</updated>
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	<entry>
		
	<title>miesjhel recommended A very selfish and personal acount of why this foreigner wants no...needs Obama to win. by miesjhel</title>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/miesjhel/2008/10/a-very-selfish-and-personal-ac.php" />
   <id>tag:www.talkingpointsmemo.com,2008:/talk/blogs/miesjhel//1694.240869</id>
  <published>2008-10-29T19:29:06Z</published>
   <updated>2008-10-29T19:45:19Z</updated>
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			<entry>
            <id>tag:www.talkingpointsmemo.com,2008:/talk/blogs/miesjhel//1694.240869-comment:3258791</id>
		    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/miesjhel/2008/10/a-very-selfish-and-personal-ac.php#c3258791" />
		
		    <title>miesjhel Commented on A very selfish and personal acount of why this foreigner wants no...needs Obama to win. by miesjhel</title>
		        
			<published>2008-10-29T20:48:38Z</published>
			   <updated>2008-10-29T20:48:38Z</updated>
		    <content type="html" xml:lang="en-us" xml:base="">
		        <![CDATA[<p>thanks for the replie, i will check into those student coverage things!</p>]]>
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	<title>miesjhel recommended The Joe Liberman Conundrum by miesjhel</title>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/miesjhel/2008/10/the-joe-liberman-conundrum.php" />
   <id>tag:www.talkingpointsmemo.com,2008:/talk/blogs/miesjhel//1694.239693</id>
  <published>2008-10-24T16:47:09Z</published>
   <updated>2008-10-24T17:07:48Z</updated>
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	<title>miesjhel recommended the cringe drinking game... by miesjhel</title>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/10/the-cringe-drinking-game.php" />
   <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2008:/talk//17.221571</id>
  <published>2008-10-03T00:59:50Z</published>
   <updated>2008-10-03T00:59:50Z</updated>
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	<entry>
		
	<title>miesjhel recommended How the dutch are solving their banking crisis. by miesjhel</title>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/09/how-the-dutch-are-solving-thei.php" />
   <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2008:/talk//17.220538</id>
  <published>2008-09-29T12:46:46Z</published>
   <updated>2008-09-29T12:46:46Z</updated>
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	<title><![CDATA[miesjhel recommended Today&apos;s Installment, In Which I Wax Economical by DF]]></title>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/09/todays-installment-in-which-i.php" />
   <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2008:/talk//17.219802</id>
  <published>2008-09-25T22:18:17Z</published>
   <updated>2008-09-25T22:18:17Z</updated>
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	<title>miesjhel recommended $700 Billion Bailout: Give it to the people!! by CIE</title>
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   <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2008:/talk//17.219540</id>
  <published>2008-09-25T10:54:54Z</published>
   <updated>2008-09-25T10:54:54Z</updated>
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	<title>miesjhel recommended Is this all a ploy to give Palin more time for prep? by miesjhel</title>
    <link rel="alternate" type="text/html" href="http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/2008/09/is-this-all-a-ploy-to-give-pal.php" />
   <id>tag:tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com,2008:/talk//17.219542</id>
  <published>2008-09-25T11:42:49Z</published>
   <updated>2008-09-25T11:42:49Z</updated>
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