The Bourne Obliviousness
Always at the cutting edge, I finally caught one of early summer's hit movies and Bill O'Reilly's midsummer whipping boy, The Bourne Ultimatum.
From his skills to his globehopping and down to his initials, Jason Bourne is the latest variation on the James Bond archetype, but every new Bond must be attuned in different ways to his times-- and the way Bourne fulfills audience action hero requirements for the post-9/11 era says something about how many of us view the situation we're in.
* * *
On a technical level, certainly, the film is masterfully well crafted. Director Paul Greengrass-- who also did The Bourne Supremacy, United 93, and the excellent northern Ireland film Bloody Sunday-- is the thinking man's Michael Bay. Like Bay he edits his films into such tiny pieces that everything registers as pure sensation; unlike with Bay, however, the result isn't like getting pummeled by a pellet gun, but like watching a haystack emerge out of little blobs of color as Monet paints in real time.
The conventions of the action thriller are so familiar that Greengrass can give us the merest hint of a common scene-- an assassin planting a bomb, which turns out to be a decoy and the real bomb is-- and we put the scene together in our heads after it happens from the pieces, and understand everything without a word. It proves to be a perfect stylistic match for the character of Jason Bourne, instinctive spy, who takes in the world around as a series of flashes as he spots others using the same training he had and always makes the right next move to stay one step ahead of them. (Admittedly, sometimes this gets too far ahead of itself; there's one scene where, so far as I could tell, Bourne dematerialized and rematerialized in his adversary's office.)
Greengrass and his screenwriters (primarily Tony Gilroy, director of the upcoming Michael Clayton) are less successful at coming up with something new for Bourne to do, virtually remaking The Bourne Supremacy and even inducing a sense of deja vu in the casting (with Chris Cooper and Brian Cox having been cast as indie-movie-cred bad guys in the previous ones, David Straithairn could not be far behind, and Michael Gambon can surely expect a call for the next sequel after Cox and Albert Finney).
* * *
What Bourne is about is the Bond formula turned inward: the evil plot he's up against was not Dr. No's missile threat but the fact of Bourne's own training, and in each movie he fights back against his own former bosses in the CIA, essentially finding and punishing the latest in a series of bad dads who wounded his inner child by training him to be a stone cold killer. Like the child of a large-living alcoholic, Bourne just wants the simple pleasures of domesticity, fidelity and home for dinner, but it always gets spoiled-- the CIA seems to devote most of its resources to the hopeless task of killing Bourne just to "tie things off."
And so he has to go find the latest bad Dad and tell him off-- and because Bourne doesn't want to be a super-killer any more, once he actually finds these fat middle-aged guys, that's all he really does. He can't fight them-- he'd make mincemeat of them in two seconds-- and he won't kill them. As in a Production Code movie or The Lion King, he has to maneuver them into a position where they force justice upon themselves.
So Bourne is Bond for Chomsky readers and the emo era: the evil is in America's soul, your mission if you choose to accept it is to tell the evil grownups off for all the bad things America has done, and nurse your tender, damaged self. The result is a series which, for all its globehopping (and Greengrass is superb at depicting a Europe which seems to consist solely of Norman Foster glass-and-steel structures and public transport), is almost pathologically uninterested in any other actual country.
Since Franka Potente's girlfriend in the first movie, there virtually hasn't been a speaking character in the series who wasn't an American employee of the CIA. (There's a Guardian reporter in this movie, but he's purely a prop.) Of course, all James Bond ever did was talk to the maitre'ds and bang the beautiful babes of each nation he visited, but at least there was the pretence of interest in local allies or adversaries; even the intelligence services of other countries aren't represented here, Bourne is completely oblivious to the places he goes and so are the guys trying to kill him. Chasing Bourne is a unilateral American operation.
* * *
The movie starts to fall apart in a way the last one didn't when Greengrass et al. begin to make explicit allusions to the post-9/11 era. Bourne's flashbacks begin to include scenes of waterboarding and hooded figures a la Abu Ghraib; he goes to a middle-eastern country (Morocco) for the first time; one of the cities he races through is Madrid, and we see him at Atocha train station, site of the Madrid bombing. Straithairn's character talks about now having more freedom to order killings, in a way that can't help but recall Clinton-era legalistic reluctance to kill Osama Bin Laden (at which point many of us, surely, do not share the film's blanket horror of assassination per se). Finally Bourne comes to New York-- and the movie's establishing shots avert their eyes from the south end, where even this movie would be forced to acknowledge the absence of the World Trade Center.
Bourne's inversion of secret agent work into a purely personal brand of therapy worked as long as we were far from that reality. But the worldview underlying the Bourne movies-- that there are no real bad guys in the world, only the CIA and America committing assassinations (outlawed long ago, of course, but everyday agency business in these movies)-- falls apart as soon as you introduce the slightest sense that the CIA might have a real mission in the world beyond killing its own ex-employees on a regular basis. A single Chinese agent, a single ex-KGB type peddling nukes, a single Islamic terror cell would puncture the bubble of America-centrism that these movies exist in and make their solipsistic focus on the evil done to Bourne start to seem absurd.
In a world with real bad guys, we need men like Jason Bourne (though brainwashing and all that is not how we actually get them) who aren't afraid to do harsh, vicious things against vicious, but very real, threats. We need agencies like the CIA, generally not to go around killing people but to gain knowledge and insight into these threats and help us stop them. But clearly there's a section of the public that still doesn't think that-- that thinks we have nothing to fear, but we should fear ourselves-- and responds to the Bourne movies' silly and dangerous fantasy that the only evil is within.
After I said some of these things on a movie board, another poster there had a brilliant suggestion for a fourth Bourne movie. There's a real plot against America, and the CIA comes looking for Bourne-- not to "tie him off," but to ask him to help. To use his training and skill to save American lives and defend democracy. And so Bourne would really have to wrestle with the question-- for all that what they did to him was ugly and sordid, doesn't what they made him in fact have its uses in today's world? Wasn't it, in some real way, justified?
Call it The Bourne Reactivation.





We need agencies like the CIA, generally not to go around killing people but to gain knowledge and insight into these threats and help us stop them. But clearly there's a section of the public that still doesn't think that-- that thinks we have nothing to fear, but we should fear ourselves-- and responds to the Bourne movies' silly and dangerous fantasy that the only evil is within.
Liberals who hate America!
And everyone who sees this movie hates America, too!!!
September 13, 2007 12:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
You know, it's really not my fault if I try to discuss this in a more intelligent and evenhanded way than Bill O'Reilly, and you respond in O'Reillyian simpleminded terms.
I know you can engage this substantively, Cscs, why don't you?
September 13, 2007 12:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Substantively is creating a liberal hate-America strawman?
Or, are you saying you didn't do that?
Which "section of America" thinks that there are no threats out there, and groups like the CIA shouldn't be involved in tracking down people that wish to do us harm?
Exactly which "section of America" thinks that We are the enemy, not a group like al-Qaeda?
With substance like that...
Your comments here are simply slights at liberals. The "reluctance" of Clinton to get OBL? Cmon, that's a cheap shot. No substance there. More O'Reilly than anything else.
If you want to use the movie as a metaphor for political ideology, than you can attribute it to the director, not "sections of America." No? Just because people see the movie, doesn't mean to they subscribe to this "fear the CIA" reading you've drummed up. You're certainly implying, if not straight out saying, that.
Maybe it's just a dumb action movie, eh?
September 13, 2007 2:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
Is it wrong to think there's a sociological point to be had in something successful enough to have had two sequels? I don't think so. It's not a dumb action movie, it's a pretty smart one in many ways, but even if it were its success could say something about our times. Lots of dumb movies do, from Death Wish to Home Alone.
Is it wrong to call a movie in which the CIA appears to be filled with rotters, in which murder (outlawed three decades ago) is routine agency procedure, in which all the bad guys are U.S. officials, and no legitimate purpose for the agency is ever depicted, anti-American on some level? Maybe, but you'd have to actually argue that point.
Are there segments in the left-liberal community for whom the al-Qaeda threat is basically phony/inconsequential but the Bush-warmonger-imminent-fascism threat is real and overwhelming? Gee, I'd have to think of a left-liberal site where posts saying such things were made on a regular basis, I guess. Where could I find such a site? Where could I find dozens of blog posts to that effect? Can anyone on TPMCafe help me out here with an example?
A more effective counterargument to my screed might be noting that in wartime there are often movies which seem to exist in a parallel universe in which war isn't happening, which fulfill an audience's need for escapism in heavy times. For instance, Billy Wilder's famous 1945 film about alcoholism, The Lost Weekend, only makes sense if there's no WWII-- draft him into the Army (and drinking problem aside, he's perfectly fit and eligible) and the whole movie goes away. I bought the first two Bourne movies as happening in that parallel no-9/11 universe but by introducing post-9/11 concerns, Greengrass forces us to recognize that his whole cast is running around chasing Bourne and each other when they oughta be chasing Osama, or North Korean nukes, or something.
September 13, 2007 3:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Is it wrong to call a movie in which the CIA appears to be filled with rotters, in which murder (outlawed three decades ago) is routine agency procedure, in which all the bad guys are U.S. officials, and no legitimate purpose for the agency is ever depicted, anti-American
And what of the people who attend? Again, this speaks to the directors POV only. You have no idea of what the people seeing read matches what the director intended.
Are there segments in the left-liberal community for whom the al-Qaeda threat is basically phony/inconsequential but the Bush-warmonger-imminent-fascism threat is real and overwhelming? Gee, I'd have to think of a left-liberal site where posts saying such things were made on a regular basis, I guess.
Please, entertain me: where? Links.
"Thank God George Bush is our president." -Rudy Giuliani
September 13, 2007 3:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
I swear you go around the liberal blogosphere with rose-colored glasses on. I see it every day!
Today on this site here where it's all a mind bending plot to keep us ascared or say, here, where we hava a little heated sub-thread going on about someone being sick of constantly hearing how America is the only terrorist and he just can't take it any more.
I'm not at all the hawk he is, and I very much get the same zeitgeist he does, strong and clear. It's a minority (note he said "segments") but the adherents are loud and rarely challenged by the community, so it comes across as approval, a strawman created by default.
Here's one, from Sept. 9:
Why some unscrupulous person, or government agency, could copy the voice of say.... say Bin Laden and present that to the world as the real thing.
or the poster's previous blog post, inaccurately challenging the most recent Osama tape as in "must have been translated or created by Jews or the CIA." Unchallenged & only one vote against the post.
I guarantee lots of lurkers label liberal blogs with this because they see often enough, often unchallenged.
September 13, 2007 5:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
More links.
Here at TPMCafe anyone with some sense is sposed to be keeping the Bush/Cheney terrorists enacting martial law thing in the back of their mind, any commenters who take this fear lightly are pressured for reasons to explain why they do not have fear of Bush/Cheney.
From another "progressive" website, Sept. 11:
How to break the neocon 9/11 fear porn frame
includes advice to take out some library books but then inspires fear of the FBI watch lists when doing so.
and one of the early comments there:
Knowing
"our" government did 911 keeps me in balance.
Lasthorseman September 11, 2007 - 4:53pm
And from all the wunnerful amateur sleuths at another "progressive" community,
we learn all about the fake Osama tape.
September 13, 2007 5:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
I swear you go around the liberal blogosphere with rose-colored glasses on. I see it every day!
A bit unfair, art. I haven't seen any of those, for one thing, as I haven't entered any of those posts. Not as much time for blogging these days.
It's a minority (note he said "segments") but the adherents are loud and rarely challenged by the community, so it comes across as approval, a strawman created by default.
Sorry, but I don't buy that. Those 1983merman posts -- filled with rants about Israel? I'm supposed to read them and refute them?
I don't buy it. Anyone who is a member and regular reader/contributor to this site understands the mainstream of the place, and knows what's on the fringe. No one needs to respond to the fringe -- ignoring those posts does NOT imply approval.
If a passer-by thinks that, so be it. But a regular like Max here, who knows this site well, knows better than to say things like that.
It's free speech, it comes with the territory. Lurkers labeling this blog as fringe is the chance we have to take.
But that's no excuse to use it as an argument about "sections" of America. So far, I see a few bloggers -- that's hardly a section.
September 13, 2007 6:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
And let's keep in mind what mgmax said:
We need agencies like the CIA, generally not to go around killing people but to gain knowledge and insight into these threats and help us stop them. But clearly there's a section of the public that still doesn't think that-- that thinks we have nothing to fear, but we should fear ourselves
No where in the "Petraeus" post to which you linked says anything remotely near what max is saying. (In fact, I think you took it out of context, from the overall conversation in that thread. The point was, to the Iraqis, we can be seen as terrorists.)
Here's my real problem: I cannot stand the accusation that the left doesn't understand or recognize the threat of terrorism. That we have nothing to fear.
The standard MO is usually something like, I say we committed atrocities by torturing others, and then someone on the right says that I don't think we should "gain knowledge and insight into these threats and help us stop them."
No one denies the threat. People can disagree about tactics, or actions, and *still* understand the threat. The accusation is a smear, a load of crap. The right uses it all the time. (It's especially offensive to me, as I live in NYC. I'm very aware of the threat.)
In fact, I would goes as far as to say you could say 9/11 was an inside job, or that the OBL tape was a fake, and STILL understand the threat. Well, maybe that's too far. :-)
But, the point is, criticizing America and understanding the threats are not mutually exclusive. And it's a strawman to make it so. And appropriating fringe viewpoints, refuted or not, under the guise of "some liberals" or "some sections" is not an innocent act.
September 13, 2007 6:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
I will just ask in this vision of community that you have, how come mgmax has to be noticed and challenged, but those others don't? Possibly because you have a vision of the community that tolerates those others'ideas but won't tolerate his? Look, I am anti-hawk, have always been. In person, I am a petite black-wearing avant garde type myopic pale girly girl who marine sergeant types love to hate (or tease.) I like the idea of a venue where I can interact on an idea basis, where those type of guys don't judge me by my appearance. Some of you are attacking mgmax as making strawmen, while I see several of you trying to make him into something he says he is not, a strawman. I see him claim over and over that he basically is a liberal hawk, but some of you have decided he is a conservative and won't let him keep that self-definition. Why can't that be taken at face value? I don't understand several in the community trying to make someone like that into a conservative.
I don't understand making one kind of p.o.v. the enemy, the other kind a part of the commmunity, circling the wagons and taking personal offense as if your "family" is being attacked because someone generalized something about "liberals". Why do you take it that way? "Liberals" are your family or something? Think about it. I think it's an overly politically correct reaction to the demonization of the word liberal over the decades. The problem is, I am not interested in being a soldier in such a political correctness battle website, I am interested in grownups discussing a variety of ideas. I think a lot of people originally came to this site hoping to find that battle left behind here.
Mgmax usually sounds very grown-up to me, and quite a few who attack him do not. If people are going to gang up and attack anyone here, I'd rather see it be the "children," bitch that I am. :-)
September 14, 2007 2:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hear that snickering?
September 14, 2007 4:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thank you, Artappraiser, very well said.
It is always astonishing how, even as everyone here seems to agree that there is nothing more important than winning the election in 2008, they doggedly pursue the ever-present goal of shrinking their party through ideological conformity purges.
Good luck with that, the rest of you.
September 14, 2007 9:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
I will just ask in this vision of community that you have, how come mgmax has to be noticed and challenged, but those others don't? Possibly because you have a vision of the community that tolerates those others'ideas but won't tolerate his?
It's actually pretty simple. Two things:
The rantings of the fringe are irrelevant. (I don't buy your "lurkers will think ill of this site" theory.)
Max, whose arguments are bursts of well-written prose and intelligent thought, sprinkled with anti-liberal slurs, is much more dangerous. People might actually believe this stuff.
Second reason, is Max is obviously a bright person, a good writer. So either he (a) actually believes what he writes (in which case, he can be shown the light), or (b) is slyly, purposefully making these arguments (in which case, he needs to be refuted, again, much more so than the fringe).
In either case, Max is obviously a better debate opponent, much more fun and interesting and challenging, than someone ranting to me that 9/11 was Bush's idea.
Liberal hawk...I don't understand several in the community trying to make someone like that into a conservative.
Well, in the Age of Bush's pre-emptive strike, that term is an oxymoron. There is nothing liberal about warmongering.
As far as Max's liberal credentials, I haven't seen them. The rhetoric he uses, Clinton's "reluctance" to get Osama bin Laden, "sections of America" don't understand the threat of terrorism, are straight out of the Republican playbook. You hear those same phrases at every Republican debate, or every time Rudy Giuliani opens his mouth.
"Liberals" are your family or something?
No, it's a matter of getting to the truth. Having a conservative opinion is much different than playing loose with the facts, statements like Clinton did nothing to stop terrorists, etc.
September 15, 2007 6:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sociologically, I may be missing some points, perhaps because I stay reasonably aware of the the intelligence community as a whole. In other words, I think, even after the latest reorganizations and the somewhat, IMHO, dubious creation of the Director of National Intelligence, the "CIA" in this context is but part of what used to be the Directorate of Operations (now National Clandestine Service), and presumably on one of the action staffs thereof. Am I to assume that the Office of Central Reference, the Office of Communications, Division D (by whatever name these days), the Office of Economic Research, the Office of Electronics, FBIS & others other the NOSIC, etc., are rotter-filled?
Am I somehow illiberal because I tend to be interested in MASINT, over at the Central MASINT Service at DIA? Should I have been embarrassed that when I went to the National Cryptologic Museum, I wound up playing tourguide, disappointed because there was no physical BLACKER, KY-57, or KG-13 at which I could sneer? While I will admit I sometimes need a cribsheet to remember which mission was assigned to the A, B, and C programs at NRO before things got sensibly renamed, does this condemn me to having to fly on aircraft with two right wings?
I suppose I'm missing a point here.
--
Howard
*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]
September 13, 2007 6:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
I found an important detail to be the scenes where Bourne/Webb is trying to bail out of the program. He seems to be unable to answer positively to the question, "Will you commit?" Then we see scenes of him being semi-drowned, etc. Then we finally see a scene where he kills someone on command.
I took it to mean his deepest character was in fact not on board, so he is not so much whining about where he's ended up but seeking justice for being railroaded.
That we need people like the imaginary Bourne is highly debatable. When we have tried to use such means they have accomplished bupkis. Phoenix, anyone? How about Mongoose?
And whether we need an institutional CIA instead of ad hoc analysis of available data is also debatable. The successes of intelligence are to be counted on one hand, for the period following WW II.
September 13, 2007 1:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
I took it differently-- and took it to show a little more seriousness on the part of the filmmakers. The flashbacks initially seem to suggest that he was (bad pun coming) hoodwinked, and brainwashed.
But in the end they show that he really did choose to be in the program-- and so he accepts his own guilt for the things he's done. Which at least is more honest than making him solely a victim (even if it's also somewhat repetitive, like a lot of this movie, of The Bourne Supremacy).
(I'm not sure that IS him being drowned, by the way. I think we're meant to think it is initially, but I think the end reveals it to be that other guy that he shoots, or pretend-shoots, or something. Hard to say.)
My argument against assassination of leaders as a tool of policy is simply that it's putting your trust in the law of unintended consequences. It is more honest and responsible to invade, depose and attempt to stabilize than to do one convenient thing and not deal with the destablization your act leaves behind. (Full-scale invasion is also going to be much less frequent as a result of the costs.) Assassination simply makes mucking with the world too easy and cost-free (seemingly) to be healthy.
When it comes to bombing camps of terrorists, on the other hand, insofar as they've made the world their battlefield, I feel no real restrictions on returning the favor.
September 13, 2007 1:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with the last two paras. I also agree with the fellow (some academic or other worthy) that argued, during the early days of interrogation flap, that while we will sometimes do amoral or immoral things for expediency, we should not formally legalize such actions.
The point was that when the situation was so fraught that these things seem necessary, the person who has to do them will feel the need and the resulting exemption from blame, or at least will accept that need means he will be sullied, and that is the sacrifice expected. Few waited for legal opinions during WW II, for obvious reasons. But when those being asked to do the bad stuff do want legal protection, it's a clue that maybe it's not so fraught, after all.
In contrast, a formal procedure for assassination and torture does in fact invite the use of those means.
BTW, I think the most realistic spy movie I've seen was "Spy Game" (Redford/Pitt).
September 13, 2007 2:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
But in the end they show that he really did choose to be in the program
Bah! Now you ruined the movie for me!!!September 13, 2007 2:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
You won't miss much. I liked the first one best, not the jangly Greengrass style. And there's no romantic angle since they kill off the girl in #2. And Ludlum didn't write #3 (dead).
September 13, 2007 2:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm sorry, I think you're just reading way too much into Bourne. Way, way too much.
Let's get serious here. The incredible world spanning network of assets, agents, satellites, etc. etc. that the CIA seems to have in this movie isn't realistic.
The resources that they'd need to pull off this kind of stuff exceeds the gross income of half the planet. Our half.
In the movie, the CIA can send a team into a room, dissect the DNA from a week old fart, reverse engineer it into a profile of height, weight, diet and face, then run it through image processing, pick him out on a handy spy satellite living in a village outside New Delhi, and then activate a covert ops assassination team living in the next village to go over there and take him out.
Okay. Yeah. Right.
In the real world, the CIA might be able to carry a glass of water from one side of the room to the other without spilling too much. Or maybe not.
But the CIA, like Jack Bauer's Center, has to be superhuman, super-stealthy, super-techno because their enemies, are even more superhuman. Let's face it. Jason Bourne could take out Superman with three paper clips and a tube of lipstick. So the CIA has to be red hot otherwise it wouldn't be a movie.
The notion that the Muslims, that Osama's organization could come up with anything as sophisticated, with a worldwide satellite network... nah.
Even in the 60's and 70's, Auric Goldfinger and Ernst Blofeld were a bit over the top. Now? Forget it.
Today, we're all out of enemies. The Russians took their toys and went home. The Chinese are more interested in selling us lead painted toys. The drug lords are passe. The Mujahedeen are thugs. The Europeans are effete.
So who is left to be the enemy but us? Process of elimination, there's no one left.
It's no deeper than that.
September 13, 2007 11:08 PM | Reply | Permalink
Valdron, I think you prove my point.
I don't disagree with you that the ultra-surveillance gee whiz thing is right up there for credibility with 24 (if you lock a piece of paper in a box and drop it down a mineshaft, in 20 seconds Chloe can pull it up on a security camera to allow Jack to read it on his PDA). One might also mention Bourne's own powers of self-protection have long since crossed the line into telepathy. (One of the best things about the last James Bond movie is that he occasionally fucks up and has to recover. Refreshing, that.)
No, they could not make the same exact movie with a less technological enemy, but the fact that they choose to make this kind of movie is revealing, no? They see the enemy in ourselves and that says something. And it's funny that you say Goldfinger and Blofeld are over the top (which of course they are)-- but sheesh, what is Bin Laden but, at long last, a real life Bond villain? He's a crazy rich dude, he has a sophisticated plan to cause a lot of strategic damage, he runs his operation from a cave and he doesn't mind a high body count a bit. If Jonathan Pryce hadn't already played a Bond villain (the Rupert Murdoch one), he'd be perfect casting.
September 13, 2007 11:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
what is Bin Laden but, at long last, a real life Bond villain? He's a crazy rich dude, he has a sophisticated plan to cause a lot of strategic damage, he runs his operation from a cave and he doesn't mind a high body count a bit.
Wow. A stunning comment.
Perhaps that's the difference here -- you're prepared to, and have, elevated bin Laden & Company to the highest echelons of criminal master-mindedness.
Far from a Bond villian, bin Laden's plans -- and capabilities -- are extremely dull, unthoughtful, and, most importantly, extremely low tech. Let's remember what happened -- box cutters, and people willing to kill themselves for a cause.
That's about as far from a Bond villain as you can get.
I'm always so confused about the Right's propensity to put bin Laden on a pedestal. It's done all the time, most often seen in the merging of the complex factions in Iraq into "al Qaeda." Bush gives al Qaeda way too much credit, and bolsters their image by attributing every single bomb and IED to the masterful strategery of Osama bin Laden. That's very far from reality.
What bin Laden is, in reality, is a guy in a cave. And because of our invasion in Iraq, Bush has allowed a guy in a cave to morph into an inspirational figure -- al Qaeda today isn't much more than anyone who wants to kill people and uses the AQ label around their actions.
AQ was able to exploit our inability to take even the simplest measures of security -- we've replaced things like securing our ports and our air cargo holds with a misplaced notion of security through pre-emptive strike. They exploited our complacency, and we've returned the volley not by sharpening our reactions, not by turning our complacency into smart security, but with a Clash of Civilizations, Good Versus Evil rhetorical battle, except it's not just rhetoric, it's bombs dropping and occupations.
So even today, instead of police work and intelligence -- you know, the kind of detective work that the CIA and others *should* be doing to deal with the threats that face us -- we have torture chambers, forcing meaningless confessions out of people like Khalid SM, confessions that will likely never stand up in a court of law, because they were coerced.
And that goes right back to the point which you misconstrue -- that's exactly why we are our own worst enemy right now. That's what people mean when they say we are the problem -- it's not that Bush is going to send the SS out to everyone's home and disappear them (although the warrantless wiretapping program that extends an unending society of surveillance is especially troublesome, certainly for anyone interested in civil rights). It's that we're dealing with the threats that face us in the wrong way.
In a way that only exacerbates the problem. A way that creates more terrorists.
(How's that for substance, bee-yaatch? Better?) :-)
"Thank God George Bush is our president." -Rudy Giuliani
September 14, 2007 12:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
If you think planning the simultaneous hijacking of four aircraft within an hour or so window, in order to hit four different targets, using people who've been training at flight schools all over the country for 18 months, is "unsophisticated," then you really do have a movie-skewed sense of reality. A car bomb is unsophisticated. A plot with four teams, training and a tight schedule is, by any reasonable measure, sophisticated.
At least it's as sophisticated as I hope to see any time soon.
Speaking of straw men, stuff like "attributing every single bomb and IED to the masterful strategery of Osama bin Laden' is surely it. I'd like to see a statement from Bush or any other administration official that comes close to saying that, as opposed to what you're basically saying-- that Al-Qaeda became a brand widely adopted. You say this stuff, and yet when Bush says OBL's not that important to the war on terror, you'll immediately scream that Bush totally failed in the job that mattered most, getting Bin Laden.
And I really have to ask what you think this detective work the CIA et al. should be doing-- if it's NOT picking up suspects and interrogating them and getting them to turn on their fellow jihadis. That's what 90% of police work is, all around the world. Do you think there's some drawing room somewhere where al-Qaeda is leaving clues for Sherlock Holmes, that the Inspector Lestrades of the CIA are too blind to see?
Finally, let me state clearly and unequivocally: we are not our own worst enemy. Actually, nihilistic rootless young men converted to a death cult version of Islam who get their hands on nuclear weapons are our own worst enemy. We fall somewhere down the list from them, thank you very much.
September 14, 2007 9:36 PM | Reply | Permalink
Speaking of straw men, stuff like "attributing every single bomb and IED to the masterful strategery of Osama bin Laden' is surely it. I'd like to see a statement from Bush or any other administration official that comes close to saying that
Steven Benen, on TPM.com:
September 15, 2007 6:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
You said Bin Laden.
The organization calls itself "Al-Qaeda in Iraq." There's nothing wrong with the way Bush put it, you're the one conflating every reference to Al-Qaeda with Bin Laden personally.
Anyway, I see it as a distinction without a difference. The enemy is totalitarian, fascist-influenced, radical Islam, which has been at war with us since taking our embassy in 1979. That Che is not taking orders from Brezhnev does not mean he's not the same enemy in the field, fundamentally.
September 15, 2007 8:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
I see it as a quite important difference. To quote Sun Tzu, not that anyone in the Office of the Vice President or the White House seems to have read it, Sun Tzu stressed
followed by
Jump forward about 2300 years, which isn't quite as good as the bone weapon morphing into a space station in 2001: A Space Odyssey, the best flash-forward in movie history. It's 1945, and you are MAJ Archimedes Patti, commanding the OSS mission to French Indochina. It is clear that nationalist groups of various flavors want help in getting out the French, and you even have some consensus about coalition among parties as diverse as the VNQDD, Vietnamese Kuomintang, and Lao Dong. One of the leaders asks for a copy of the US Declaration of Independence to use as a basis of their statement. He offers several proposals leading to independence, all French interests being compensated economically, and a phased independence either under the French, or even as a US protectorate such as the Phillipines.
His name went through a number of changes,and for many years, he was known as Nguyen Ai Quoc. Now, he is called Ho Chi Minh.
A fellow named Tito was also a communist, but a nationalist communist much as was Ho. Yugoslavia, before Tito's death, did have a foreign policy not in lockstep with the Soviets. This may have been the case if a coalition led by Ho took power, but it probably wouldn't have been worse.
At a third-country diplomatic reception in the mid-fifties, Secretary of State John Foster Dulles ignored the outstretched hand of Chou En-Lai, because we were convinced Communism was monolithic and there was no point in trying to exploit Sino-Soviet splits. I doubt that this is quite what George Kennan meant in what is called the (pseudonymous) "X Article", "The Sources of Soviet Conduct". The X Article described the basic "containment" strategy against the Soviets.
Che had Cuban nationalist goals as well as Communist goals, and some of his theories would have shocked Soviet ideologues such as Mikhail Suslov. "Divide and Conquer" goes back at least to the Romans, and that strategy is still relevant.
Sunnis, al-Qaeda in Iraq, Shia, Iran-influenced groups in Iraq, Fatah, Jaish-e-Mohammed, Taliban, the Moroccan Islamic Combatant Group, Jamaat Ansar al-Sunna, al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya and the Islamic Movement of Uzbekistan all are flavors of radical Islam. It may well be that Jaish-e-Mohammed regards al-Gama'a al-Islamiyya as chocolate, to which it is allergic. These distinctions are important, especially, extending on Sun Tzu, there are diplomatic, covert operational, and psychological means to divide and even form temporary alliances.
--
Howard
*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]
September 15, 2007 10:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
And I really have to ask what you think this detective work the CIA et al. should be doing-- if it's NOT picking up suspects and interrogating them and getting them to turn on their fellow jihadis. That's what 90% of police work is, all around the world. Do you think there's some drawing room somewhere where al-Qaeda is leaving clues for Sherlock Holmes, that the Inspector Lestrades of the CIA are too blind to see?
Interrogation is not torture, is it?
Yes, pick up suspects. But also, follow their money, and get into their networks, etc, etc.
Just not torture.
Why are the Brits and the Germans able to stop plots, and real plots at that, not pizza delivery men, without any allegations of torture?
Finally, let me state clearly and unequivocally: we are not our own worst enemy. Actually, nihilistic rootless young men converted to a death cult version of Islam who get their hands on nuclear weapons are our own worst enemy. We fall somewhere down the list from them, thank you very much.
That's the point, max -- we're not doing anything to stop these people. In fact, we're helping to recruit more of them.
What about that don't you get?
You're really got your head wrapped up in an American flag, and then sunk way down in the sand, don't you?
September 15, 2007 6:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
"That's the point, max -- we're not doing anything to stop these people. In fact, we're helping to recruit more of them."
I realize that this is one of the stock talking points of your side, but really, after six years without an attack, don't you think "we're not doing anything to stop these people" is demonstrably untrue?
And I'd love to see some evidence for the well-known "fact" that we're helping to recruit more of them, especially right now when cooperation with our forcesis growing in Iraq and al-Qaeda is clearly in a defensive position in regards to local populations. Did fighting the Nazis in North Africa recruit more of them? Was it a bad idea as a result?
September 15, 2007 8:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
The Nazis were external. North African nationalists were internal.
Nevertheless, the Nazis did build some ugly alliances, such as with the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin Al Husseini. It is unrealistic to generalize as you are doing.
al-Qaeda in Iraq is the terrorist equivalent of a new MacDonald's franchise, with a few divisional managers from corporate. I can relate to that; a Big Mac often sounds like an IED in my intestines.
--
Howard
*equal opportunity offense to both extremes*
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" [George Santayana]
September 15, 2007 10:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
And I'd love to see some evidence for the well-known "fact" that we're helping to recruit more of them
WaPo:
You really ought to start reading the newspaper more often.
It's one thing to debate, but you're obviously uninformed in this area. Tom just explained to you why something as "innocuous" as waterboarding is impractical and immoral, and now I've presented "facts" on how the war in Iraq is helping recruit terrorists.
But if you're learning something here, well, then it's worth it.
(This is the part where you reply, and you say, "Hey, thanks, I didn't know the war in Iraq was actually recruiting more terrorists. Holy crap! Boy, invading Iraq was a stupid idea!!!")
Oh, and by the way, this is how innocuous waterboarding really is:
September 15, 2007 3:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
"But also, follow their money, and get into their networks, etc, etc."
Helloooo? What do you think we've been doing for six years? You really think that hasn't been happening in a huge way?
"Why are the Brits and the Germans able to stop plots, and real plots at that, not pizza delivery men, without any allegations of torture? "
In many of the cases we know about, these countries have acknowledged that some of the information used came from suspects such as Khalis Sheikh Muhammad. Your imaginary scenario in which completely separate intelligence services are going about this in two totally different ways is simply not the reality.
I am not pro-torture. I think it is best avoided on a practical basis. It is probably corrupting in the long run. But on the other hand, when stateless terrorists try to wage war on us, I have little problem with seeing them subject to, say, the normal standards of the country they came from, rather than American jurisprudence. Don't like the Moroccan secret police? Then don't plot against us in Morocco.
The other issue is the unseriousness of anti-Bush groups who redefine torture as any form of coercion whatsoever. They have weakened the real case against it.
But try to answer this question: waterboarding is often cited as an example of utter barbarity. It is reportedly terrifying but causes no actual damage. So what, precisely, is wrong about it? Don't just huff and say "of course it is! I can;t believe you'd--" It inflicts fright, it causes panic, yet it is not physically harmful. What precisely is morally wrong about using it?
September 15, 2007 8:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
It is dehumanizing to coerce testimony. That's the moral part.
It does not yield reliable information. That's the practical part.
I don't know if it's online yet, but "The Agent", by Lawrence Wright, in the July 10, 2006 New Yorker, profiles Ali Soufan, an FBI interrogator that was working on the Cole bombing. He turned his subject, a shiekh, by being sympathetic and out-quoting the Koran. Once your subject is actually coooperating, you have useful information.
Warteboarding is something that feels effective, but the evidence is against coercive interrogation for finding out stuff. It's only effective at forcing "confessions", useful for show trials.
September 15, 2007 11:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
It is dehumanizing to coerce testimony. That's the moral part.
"Look, kid, we know you two stabbed that little old lady when she wouldn't hand over her purse. And right now your buddy is in that other room about ready to spill his guts. So the question is, does he cop a plea, say you did it, and get a suspended sentence while you go up for 20 to life, or do you beat him to it and spare yourself turning old and gray in a cell with Leroy the 300-lb. gangsta who'd love himself a little Latino boy-chica like you?"
There. That was coercion. That was dehumanizing. It was sexual, it was racist, it was psychological pressure.
Was it torture? If so, too late, torture is happening all around us, and in all those other countries mentioned, too.
Now the effectiveness-- the low, but not nonexistent by any means-- effectiveness of torture is another question. But on a moral level, psychological pressure, coercion and the fear of harm are used every day to get information out of suspects.
September 15, 2007 12:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're dodging. The point of waterboarding is to coerce cooperation. You can try to belittle coercion by using the Prisoner's Dilemma, but that's a choice, not coercion.
George Washington instructed his commanders to treat prisoners well, in spite of the British comitting atrocities. We treated German prisoners well in spite of their behavior toward civilians. We won both wars.
In Vietnam, we formed Phoenix teams to assassinate communist cadres, and other things not to be proud of. We did not win that war.
In Gulf I, we treated prisoners well, and won that war.
Tell me again what the value of torture, oops, non-lethal, non-damaging, waterboarding, is. I say it is good only for show-trial forced confessions, and since we can't do those, except at Gitmo, it's worthless.
September 15, 2007 1:25 PM | Reply | Permalink
To paraphrase the wise and far-seeing Max, if you can't see the difference between the threat of prison and waterboarding, that's the saddest thing I'll read this week.
September 15, 2007 4:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Good zinger, Tankard, but basically we're back at my original prefatory comment: "Don't just huff and say 'of course it is! I can't believe you'd--'"
We're in Morality 101 at Georgetown. If it's that obvious, by definition it must be possible to articulate it. What precisely is wrong about it if it does not cause physical harm? What is the underlying philosophical basis, in natural law or any other system, for arguing that it is unacceptable in a way other forms of intense coercion and psychological pressure are not?
September 15, 2007 4:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
Since mental states are physical states, pain is physical, and memory is concrete and tangible. Not leaving marks on a body misses the point.
Do you think making someone think he's about to die is a non-event? Try it on someone and let me know how much the jury awards him for pain and suffering.
And let's add up all the fabulous leads we got from torturing. KSM is excluded right away as ludicrously unlikely to have acheived everything he claimed. I note his interrogation did not lead to Osama's capture, so in my book it accomplished exactly dick, except to make the interrogators feel either powerful or polluted, depending on their character.
September 15, 2007 4:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
If it's that obvious, by definition it must be possible to articulate it.
This is clearly an invaid statment. The definition of the word "obvious" does not include articulation. Articulate the proof that alternate stripes on the American flag are red. One might even say that when a phenomenon is obvious it neither requires nor perhaps even permits articulation.
Further, the fact that I might be unable to articulate it indicates nothing about a statement's truth nor obviousness.
However...
What precisely is wrong about it if it does not cause physical harm?
An absurd question, as I am sure you know. If I seize your Rolls Royce Corniche without cause it is clearly immoral although it causes no physical harm because I have deprived you of your property. If I enslave you, yet keep you safe, warm, dry, and nourished that is immoral because I have deprived you of your freedom. Similarly, if you cause me memorably intense pain, or cause me to feel the anxiety of imminent death, you have acted in an extremely immoral way because you have deprived me of a number of things I hold most dear: my dignity, my hope for a future, my physical integrity, my feeling of wholeness. Even a Neocon should have no trouble understanding these ideas without its being articulated.
September 15, 2007 5:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'd like to see a statement from Bush or any other administration official that comes close to saying that
By the way, I really love this debate tactic:
It was done over and again with the "Bush never said Saddam was an imminent threat" argument.
Tired old technique.
September 15, 2007 7:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
You think I don't get that all the time?
In my case it's usually:
- I say Group X generally believes something
- The response is, "Every single one? Prove it"
Several examples of that are in this thread (for instance, the very first comment).
In your case, though, you're claiming a specific statement from a specific individual. Who probably spoke more carefully and accurately than you imply.
For instance... Bush never said Saddam was an imminent threat.
The danger is clear: using chemical, biological or, one day, nuclear weapons, obtained with the help of Iraq, the terrorists could fulfill their stated ambitions and kill thousands or hundreds of thousands of innocent people in our country, or any other. (White House, 3/18/2003)
Some ask how urgent this danger is to America and the world. The danger is already significant, and it only grows worse with time. If we know Saddam Hussein has dangerous weapons today -- and we do -- does it make any sense for the world to wait to confront him as he grows even stronger and develops even more dangerous weapons?(Cincinatti, 10/7/2002)
Both those statements may overhype Iraq as a threat. In retrspect they could be much picked apart. But they are careful never to say any threat is an imminent-- that an attack is known to be pending.
Accuracy matters, cscs.
September 15, 2007 9:06 AM | Reply | Permalink
Don't forget, Bin Laden himself absolutely understands the worldwide appeal of Hollywood action pictures. The goal of selecting the WTC, Pentagon, Capitol targets was not the ability kill a lot of people (that the towers fell was a surprise even to them) but for the "Hollywoodness." He also understands the white hat vs. black hat theme very well: he chose to publicly take responsibility rather than deny involvment precisely for the recruitment power of the hero worship thing. He chose the dramatic targets for the recruitment power of those, too. It was much more appealing to be one of "the few, the proud" members of Al Qaeda plotting grand strategic ops than a grunt in an Arab political organization. That he would be seen as a "crazy rich guy" is not the effect he would want, though. :-)
As to your main theme, it's I think it's actually taken kind of long for studio action pictures to come around any kind of "it's all America's fault" slant. Until recently, they've been a bastion of the other P.O.V. and were a great argument point against Hollywood being a liberal propaganda machine. Bruce Willis characters made a crucial change, in my eyes, as he is never the savvy secret agent or tough guy with morals Clint Eastwood type, but always the hapless everyman joe schmo who turns out to be able to do everything or survive anything. (I think the latter is more accurately how a lot of Americans think of America rather than the Clint Eastwood/John Wayne stuff, it is more subtle and more accurate imagery.) But after that all we finally have things like "Syriana," not as a little independent film, but as a big studio picture, with a big breakthrough to cynicism. (In the love story genre in Hollywood, by comparison, cynicism happened a long, long time ago.)
In any case, you have ended up as a great salesman of the film, at least for me. I a "girl," I would have waited to see this until I ran across it on cable in 5 years. Now I am more interested.
September 14, 2007 1:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
I like to think of Syriana as an independent film that just happened to get distributed by a big studio.
George Clooney's latest films, Ocean's aside, have a real independent sensibility. None of them would have been made by a studio, without Clooney/Soderbergh behind them.
I don't think it's a breakthrough on the part of the studio system, as much as the star power (and money) of George Clooney that's at work here.
And, yes, now I want to see Bourne, as well. Even though max ruined the ending! :-)
Of course, "Team America: World Police" had the Hate America cynicism down pat, years ago...
September 14, 2007 2:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Skip Bourne, rent "Spy Game" (Redford/Pitt). It's both fun and believable. If you need a Bourne fix, the first is the best, my money.
September 14, 2007 2:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
Saw them both. I liked Spy Game a lot.
I actually didn't care for the first Bourne. Or the second. More specifically, I liked the idea of the movies (kind of an action hero Memento...); what bothered me was the style. I didn't care for the way the action scenes were depicted, that choppy slow/fast motion thing they had Matt Damon doing.
I just seemed like a way to hide Damon's (lack of) action hero skills.
I guess he'll always just be Good Will Hunting to me...
heh.
September 14, 2007 2:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
I mentioned #1 because it's a different director, more conventional in pace and cutting. Ludlum is trashy but fun. I thought Spy Game hews very close to most of actual CIA procedures.
September 14, 2007 4:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
I like to think of Syriana as a compendium of all the cliches about the middle east that were so prevalent in 70s political thrillers-- the trigger-happy CIA, the soulful-eyed sheik who wants to lift up his people (but bad America won't let him), etc.
September 14, 2007 9:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
I didn't find the movie wholly successful, but Bob Baer consulted on it, and he's pretty experienced over there. His take was that the feeling was about right, not necessarily the details of story.
September 14, 2007 11:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
You're suggesting Max may not have his finger on the pulse of the Middle East?
My, my...September 15, 2007 6:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, in the original Die Hard, Bruce Willis might have played like a regular shmo, but the latest Die Hard movie could have been renamed Terminator 17.
September 15, 2007 10:02 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree that the last Bond movie was refreshing in that he occasionally screwed up. I liked the Lazenby Bond for the same reason. To my thinking "On Her Majesty's Secret Service" is still the best. Go back and watch it again. The feel with Lazenby's Bond is that he's simply improvising as he goes along, improvising brilliantly, but you can see him literally making it up, and not always confident that he's going to make it work.
I still don't think you're reading Bourne right at all:
Not really. It's endemic to the deeply paranoid structure of the movie. There's nothing particularly new here. The 'hostile world' goes back to 'Invasion of the Body Snatchers' and well beyond. The pulp device of 'Amnesiac/Newborn/Prodigal returning to his origins' arguably goes back as far as Shelley's Frankenstein or earlier.
Hitchcock made his living on similar films. It's continually the story of the amnesiac, the fish out of water, the man who simply blunders into a situation, who must then struggle to figure out 'who the hell are these people, and why are they chasing me with guns?' Think of North by Northwest.
Look, it's woven into the very structure of these sorts of stories. Follow me on this:
1) The movie/novel opens with the audience/reader knowing nothing about anything. We start learning from day one, page one, opening shot. But we start off as blank slates.
2) The movie/novel features a protagonist that we are supposed to identify with. Who we sympathize with, who we are supposed to root for.
3) It's a very well established trick to make the protagonist a blank slate. Often he wakes up with amnesia. As often, he starts off as a stranger who simply blunders or is dragged into a situation. Either way, he starts off from the beginning in the same situation as the audience. So identification is built because both the audience and protagonist are figuring it all out as they go along. Hello Jason Bourne.
4) The protagonist has to be challenged by his adversaries. They have to be powerful. Often, they seem to initially be omnipotent. The protagonist doesn't know who they are, he doesn't know who he can trust, they turn out to have infiltrated or subverted his friends or lover. The protagonist disconnects from society, because the antagonists tentacles run deep into that society. If they didn't, then most of our heroes in these things would simply call in the police to sort these assholes out. Welcome to Jason Bourne's CIA.
It's no more complicated than that, there's no deeper meaning, it's not a sign of the times or a liberal plot.
As I said, Bourne is just another example of it, but amped up.
Actually, Bourne's a pretty lame example. The first Bourne movie was better in that respect, in showing the pure 'amnesiac coming home.' But Bourne already knows a lot about his adversaries and their limits, and the camera spends too much time following Bourne's CIA and their internal politics.
As I said before, Bourne is so superhuman that only a super super duper adversary will do. They get thin on the trees. When you're dealing with a paranoid fantasy like Bourne's, at the level of Dragonballishness we're looking at, any nemesis for Bourne would have to have near omnipotent control over society. That doesn't leave many candidates.
If it wasn't the CIA, then who would it be? And if it wasn't the CIA, then why wouldn't Bourne just sic the real CIA on them.
Nope, it's just inflation at work.
September 15, 2007 9:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
I haven't seen the movies, just the trailers, but did read Ludlum's first two Bourne books two or three decades ago. I remember the basic plots but not a lot of detail. From the trailers it seems like it took three movies to get Bourne to the same place the first book ended.
Has anyone both read the books and watched the movies? If so, does having read the books interfere with enjoying the movies?
September 15, 2007 9:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yes and No. The second and third have more of the breathless, headlong Ludlum style. Not bad compared to the books.
September 15, 2007 9:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks. I guess I'll watch the movies. :-)
September 15, 2007 9:47 PM | Reply | Permalink