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I got [tempbanned] from Open Left for making this post
Earlier today Open Left made a post about Barack Obama and gay rights, I made this post in the comment section, essentially disagreeing. Trying not to get too tied up in specifics, the goal of their post was for some reason to argue that Barack Obama agrees with and is identical to Rick Warren on the specific subject of gay marriage, even though they may disagree on other gay rights issues. My comment attempted to respond that even given that he won't say the magic words "I support gay marriage" Obama is an ally on gay marriage in several specific objective ways, including that for example Obama supports federal recognition of same sex marriages where they exist. You can read the posts yourself if you like but the nastiest thing in my response, as far as I can tell, was the line:
I have some thoughts about this, and what I am taking away from this incident about the current state of the blogosphere in general.
The Open Left guys, as I understand, started out as part of what we might call the Dean Revolution and so they have been working toward this particular goal for a long, long time: Make the Democratic party dominant, and make it progressive.
And now: They've won. The Democrats have just won two wave elections in a row, and the party that has resulted is dramatically to the left of the one we started the decade with. The DLC is so discredited as a movement that they had to shut down and reform under a different name. "Progressive" is no longer a dirty word, in fact it's a word that's so desirable that it's lost all meaning from all the disparate people trying to claim it. We have just elected with an enormous mandate a President unthinkable a decade ago, both because of his background and because he is notably to the left on any number of issues of the Democratic Party status quo on the day John Kerry or even Al Gore won the nomination. In addition to the Presidency, the Democrats control both houses of Congress with margins approaching supermajority.
And Open Left's miserable.
The entire left-wing blogosphere's miserable, really. I don't need to point this out to you; you read it.
There are reasons for this. The Congress didn't use that first Democratic wave election to actually accomplish anything noticeably liberal, and some of that can be laid at the feet of leaders who will remain in power next year. The team Barack Obama has been assembling does not line up with the progressive change-the-world rhetoric he used to get elected. Overall it would be unreasonable to absolutely assume the people who we have just handed power to are going to follow through on anything we want, and as of yet we do not know if the "progressives" we just elected will be any more progressive than the DLCers who they took the party from.
At the same time it's kind of weird to see people so despairing over an administration that, technically, has not existed for even one second yet. We don't have the evidence to call Obama's administration a success yet or even anything as positive as a wash, but nor do we have anything to call it a failure. In favor of hope, we have a large number of campaign promises and a number of intended Congressional bills, some of which are just promises but some of which are things actively being lined up to be passed almost immediately after inauguration; against, we have some ambiguous cabinet picks and the assumption that everything is going to go wrong somehow. This isn't enough to draw conclusions. Entire sectors of the left blogosphere are doing that anyway.
The thing I'm considering weird here, mind you, is not people being angry at Obama. That's reasonable: Obama has, you know, done some things over the previous month, and some of these are things that people disagreed with, and anger is sort of something that happens when you disagree with someone about something they did. But what's happening here goes beyond that, and here's where things get squirrelly. It doesn't seem to be enough to disagree with Obama, or to be upset over his actions. There seems to be some kind of compulsion to not just disagree with Obama, but to make him the enemy, and maybe to make anyone who won't make Obama the enemy an enemy, too. The things that are negative about Obama have to become the defining elements of his personality, his presidency. The things that are positive about him have to be washed away, erased even if these are things that two months ago the same people were specifically arguing were reasons to select him over McCain.
Some of the people doing this just legitimately had a beef with Obama to begin with; I.E. some of these people were Clinton or Edwards supporters at some point, have never trusted Obama even if they considered him a superior alternative to McCain, and so are not doing an about face so much as an "I told you so". Others seem to be simply losing the ability to disagree with someone without hating them.
For example: I got banned from Open Left this morning. I got banned from Open Left for, at least as a proximate cause, attempting to argue that on gay marriage Barack Obama is further left than an evangelical preacher-- not so to speak, literally that was the question at hand. I didn't try to specifically argue Obama's position on gay marriage as a good or right one; I wouldn't have, since I think Obama, who prefers "separate but equal" civil unions to real marriage, is wrong on gay marriage. I just tried to argue there are ways in which he is not our enemy on the specific issue of gay marriage, in response to a post which seemed to me to be willfully ignoring specific things he's doing right on the issue just in order to help sharpen the anger on something he had done wrong.
This is where significant [though not, to my mind, representative] blocks of the left blogosphere are going: it is literally unacceptable to attempt to promote reconciliation between a person and a man they voted for for President barely a month before. (And this particular incident happened on a site which not only endorsed Obama in the primary but a site where, as I understand, you could also conceivably get banned for rejecting the Democratic party and going Nader; so you're not allowed to oppose Barack Obama, but you're not allowed to support him either, or maybe you can support him but only as long as you agree not to like him? I don't know.)
Here's what I think's happening here.
This, I think, is the problem: The left does not know how to win. It is a completely foreign feeling to us. We do not know what we'd do if we ever caught the roadrunner. Similarly, the idea of allies are foreign to us. We don't know how to work with allies; we've never had anything but enemies. Allies are not things that work with you toward a common goal. Allies are those things that stab you in the back.
Moreover, we have gotten some very strange neuroses from the long period during which we've lost at everything. Like, for quite a lot of years, the Democrats have been a long procession of people who've given lip service to groups like progressives, but never follow through on actual policy. Everybody's noticed this. Nobody likes this. But we've also become, to some extent, dependent on that lip service. Since it's all we've had for so long it's what we've learned to respond to in politicians.
So what happens if we ever get allies? People who aren't part of the movement, who aren't us so to speak, but do have common goals with us and intend to work on them. Well, obviously we'd work on those common goals with them. But what happens when the goals diverge, as is inevitably going to happen at some point? What do you do with allies that disagree with you? I don't think we really know. But we do know what to do with enemies: you attack them. One thing we could do is assume that the disagreement is in fact the allies stabbing us in the back, and attack them back for it. And if we're going to attack them, we have to turn them into enemies.
----- ----- ----- -----
Why does any of this matter? Well, it matters because we don't know what Barack Obama is going to do. Barack Obama is, somewhere between "on occasion" and "always", going to get things wrong. And when that happens, we need something in place to pressure him back into doing the right thing. In fact, given that Obama, although he's committed himself to trying to move the center leftward, also has committed himself to appeasing that center, Obama can't function without this outside pressure dragging the Overton window where he wants it.
I am not sure this is something we have right now. What we have are a bunch of people who are trying to establish Obama as the Enemy. At times I'm not sure how this is meant to improve his behavior. You can't pressure someone who you have nothing in common with; if you try to start with the premise you disagree with someone on everything, then you have no grounds on which to bring them into agreement. Someone without common ground isn't someone you influence, it's someone you defeat. Sometimes there are people you really don't have common ground with, and the only thing you can do is try to defeat them. But a lot of us have stopped looking for common ground at all, even among our allies, and now we're trying to defeat the exact people who we very badly need to achieve our goals.
What we've wound up with isn't pressure, just undirected anger. An amazing amount of the response to Obama's recent actions has come with no remedy, stated or implied, attached (though this has varied from commentator to commentator). The obvious remedy in any of these cases would be "stop doing the thing that upset me"; but some of these actions being responded to are either essentially symbolic or unwinnable battles, and while symbolism can matter and unwinnable battles are sometimes worth fighting just to say you tried, neither of these things are worth it if opportunities to actually have some meaningful influence are in the process falling through the cracks. For example, Obama stood up today and said that he is a fierce advocate of equality for gays and lesbians. We have the opportunity to send back the message, "prove it". Instead the message we are sending back at the moment is "no you're not".
I think it is possible to pressure Barack Obama without specifically being his enemy. It's not exactly necessary, but it's something that should be tried. And if on the other hand we are going to have to approach Obama from an adversarial standpoint, and maybe we <i>are</i> going to have to do this, then we at least need to have some clear idea of what our goals are in attacking him-- what effect we expect those attacks to have, and based on what common goals we think those effects might happen.
I realize this is all kind of abstract. I do have specific opinions concerning how and within what limitations these sorts of things relate to gay marriage and Rick Warren, which aren't really getting expressed here because this post is already too long; and because the post itself came about because, well, I got kicked out of the discussion where we were talking about Rick Warren and gay marriage. But that's the problem in the first place-- we're not willing to listen enough, even within our own side, for these kinds of discussions to even meaningfully take place. We've got some section of the progressive movement which is not only unwilling to listen to our enemies, but also unwilling to listen to allies who are willing to listen to our enemies, plus apparently allies who are willing to listen to those allies who are willing to listen to our enemies. What the hell? Where can we even go from there?
A couple minutes after making this post, Open Left showed me as logged out, and my ability to log back in was gone. (Attempts to log back in were met with a password error; attempts to use the "lost password" feature resulted in a new password mailed to me, which also met with a password error.) An email asking for verification as to whether I had been banned was not responded to. I am, apparently, now banned from Open Left.Chris, Matt, this is why you have no allies: Because you throw them all away.
I have some thoughts about this, and what I am taking away from this incident about the current state of the blogosphere in general.
----
EDIT: I should note that as of this writing Chris at Open Left put up a post responding to this one (and after some discussion in the comments chose to undo the ban). Also probably worth noting is that as Chris describes things the precise reason for the issuing of the ban was not the one I assumed it was in writing the post below. I am leaving the post as is because I think it stands as a general analysis on certain parts of the blogosphere right now, but I changed the title.
----
Open Left is a site I've been reading literally since the day it opened, and if you're not familiar with it one of the things worth noting about it is that, like MyDD which they spawned from, they are very serious about working within rather than against the system. That is to say, Open Left's main goal as I understand it is to create transformation in America's left wing, but they want to use the existing Democratic Party structures to do it. They are opposed to the Democratic Party status quo and believe the Democratic Party, operating under the umbrella of "centrism", has largely served as a tool to service the right, but they reject third party challenges or abandoning the Democratic Party as a response to this problem; they take the tack of insisting progressives need to embrace the Democratic Party while working to change it from within.The Open Left guys, as I understand, started out as part of what we might call the Dean Revolution and so they have been working toward this particular goal for a long, long time: Make the Democratic party dominant, and make it progressive.
And now: They've won. The Democrats have just won two wave elections in a row, and the party that has resulted is dramatically to the left of the one we started the decade with. The DLC is so discredited as a movement that they had to shut down and reform under a different name. "Progressive" is no longer a dirty word, in fact it's a word that's so desirable that it's lost all meaning from all the disparate people trying to claim it. We have just elected with an enormous mandate a President unthinkable a decade ago, both because of his background and because he is notably to the left on any number of issues of the Democratic Party status quo on the day John Kerry or even Al Gore won the nomination. In addition to the Presidency, the Democrats control both houses of Congress with margins approaching supermajority.
And Open Left's miserable.
The entire left-wing blogosphere's miserable, really. I don't need to point this out to you; you read it.
There are reasons for this. The Congress didn't use that first Democratic wave election to actually accomplish anything noticeably liberal, and some of that can be laid at the feet of leaders who will remain in power next year. The team Barack Obama has been assembling does not line up with the progressive change-the-world rhetoric he used to get elected. Overall it would be unreasonable to absolutely assume the people who we have just handed power to are going to follow through on anything we want, and as of yet we do not know if the "progressives" we just elected will be any more progressive than the DLCers who they took the party from.
At the same time it's kind of weird to see people so despairing over an administration that, technically, has not existed for even one second yet. We don't have the evidence to call Obama's administration a success yet or even anything as positive as a wash, but nor do we have anything to call it a failure. In favor of hope, we have a large number of campaign promises and a number of intended Congressional bills, some of which are just promises but some of which are things actively being lined up to be passed almost immediately after inauguration; against, we have some ambiguous cabinet picks and the assumption that everything is going to go wrong somehow. This isn't enough to draw conclusions. Entire sectors of the left blogosphere are doing that anyway.
The thing I'm considering weird here, mind you, is not people being angry at Obama. That's reasonable: Obama has, you know, done some things over the previous month, and some of these are things that people disagreed with, and anger is sort of something that happens when you disagree with someone about something they did. But what's happening here goes beyond that, and here's where things get squirrelly. It doesn't seem to be enough to disagree with Obama, or to be upset over his actions. There seems to be some kind of compulsion to not just disagree with Obama, but to make him the enemy, and maybe to make anyone who won't make Obama the enemy an enemy, too. The things that are negative about Obama have to become the defining elements of his personality, his presidency. The things that are positive about him have to be washed away, erased even if these are things that two months ago the same people were specifically arguing were reasons to select him over McCain.
Some of the people doing this just legitimately had a beef with Obama to begin with; I.E. some of these people were Clinton or Edwards supporters at some point, have never trusted Obama even if they considered him a superior alternative to McCain, and so are not doing an about face so much as an "I told you so". Others seem to be simply losing the ability to disagree with someone without hating them.
For example: I got banned from Open Left this morning. I got banned from Open Left for, at least as a proximate cause, attempting to argue that on gay marriage Barack Obama is further left than an evangelical preacher-- not so to speak, literally that was the question at hand. I didn't try to specifically argue Obama's position on gay marriage as a good or right one; I wouldn't have, since I think Obama, who prefers "separate but equal" civil unions to real marriage, is wrong on gay marriage. I just tried to argue there are ways in which he is not our enemy on the specific issue of gay marriage, in response to a post which seemed to me to be willfully ignoring specific things he's doing right on the issue just in order to help sharpen the anger on something he had done wrong.
This is where significant [though not, to my mind, representative] blocks of the left blogosphere are going: it is literally unacceptable to attempt to promote reconciliation between a person and a man they voted for for President barely a month before. (And this particular incident happened on a site which not only endorsed Obama in the primary but a site where, as I understand, you could also conceivably get banned for rejecting the Democratic party and going Nader; so you're not allowed to oppose Barack Obama, but you're not allowed to support him either, or maybe you can support him but only as long as you agree not to like him? I don't know.)
Here's what I think's happening here.
This, I think, is the problem: The left does not know how to win. It is a completely foreign feeling to us. We do not know what we'd do if we ever caught the roadrunner. Similarly, the idea of allies are foreign to us. We don't know how to work with allies; we've never had anything but enemies. Allies are not things that work with you toward a common goal. Allies are those things that stab you in the back.
Moreover, we have gotten some very strange neuroses from the long period during which we've lost at everything. Like, for quite a lot of years, the Democrats have been a long procession of people who've given lip service to groups like progressives, but never follow through on actual policy. Everybody's noticed this. Nobody likes this. But we've also become, to some extent, dependent on that lip service. Since it's all we've had for so long it's what we've learned to respond to in politicians.
So what happens if we ever get allies? People who aren't part of the movement, who aren't us so to speak, but do have common goals with us and intend to work on them. Well, obviously we'd work on those common goals with them. But what happens when the goals diverge, as is inevitably going to happen at some point? What do you do with allies that disagree with you? I don't think we really know. But we do know what to do with enemies: you attack them. One thing we could do is assume that the disagreement is in fact the allies stabbing us in the back, and attack them back for it. And if we're going to attack them, we have to turn them into enemies.
----- ----- ----- -----
Why does any of this matter? Well, it matters because we don't know what Barack Obama is going to do. Barack Obama is, somewhere between "on occasion" and "always", going to get things wrong. And when that happens, we need something in place to pressure him back into doing the right thing. In fact, given that Obama, although he's committed himself to trying to move the center leftward, also has committed himself to appeasing that center, Obama can't function without this outside pressure dragging the Overton window where he wants it.
I am not sure this is something we have right now. What we have are a bunch of people who are trying to establish Obama as the Enemy. At times I'm not sure how this is meant to improve his behavior. You can't pressure someone who you have nothing in common with; if you try to start with the premise you disagree with someone on everything, then you have no grounds on which to bring them into agreement. Someone without common ground isn't someone you influence, it's someone you defeat. Sometimes there are people you really don't have common ground with, and the only thing you can do is try to defeat them. But a lot of us have stopped looking for common ground at all, even among our allies, and now we're trying to defeat the exact people who we very badly need to achieve our goals.
What we've wound up with isn't pressure, just undirected anger. An amazing amount of the response to Obama's recent actions has come with no remedy, stated or implied, attached (though this has varied from commentator to commentator). The obvious remedy in any of these cases would be "stop doing the thing that upset me"; but some of these actions being responded to are either essentially symbolic or unwinnable battles, and while symbolism can matter and unwinnable battles are sometimes worth fighting just to say you tried, neither of these things are worth it if opportunities to actually have some meaningful influence are in the process falling through the cracks. For example, Obama stood up today and said that he is a fierce advocate of equality for gays and lesbians. We have the opportunity to send back the message, "prove it". Instead the message we are sending back at the moment is "no you're not".
I think it is possible to pressure Barack Obama without specifically being his enemy. It's not exactly necessary, but it's something that should be tried. And if on the other hand we are going to have to approach Obama from an adversarial standpoint, and maybe we <i>are</i> going to have to do this, then we at least need to have some clear idea of what our goals are in attacking him-- what effect we expect those attacks to have, and based on what common goals we think those effects might happen.
I realize this is all kind of abstract. I do have specific opinions concerning how and within what limitations these sorts of things relate to gay marriage and Rick Warren, which aren't really getting expressed here because this post is already too long; and because the post itself came about because, well, I got kicked out of the discussion where we were talking about Rick Warren and gay marriage. But that's the problem in the first place-- we're not willing to listen enough, even within our own side, for these kinds of discussions to even meaningfully take place. We've got some section of the progressive movement which is not only unwilling to listen to our enemies, but also unwilling to listen to allies who are willing to listen to our enemies, plus apparently allies who are willing to listen to those allies who are willing to listen to our enemies. What the hell? Where can we even go from there?
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Shocking, shocking! You mean the Open Left ain't so open?
I left there before being banned (but close) vowing to never blog or comment there again. I told my wife they need to change the name of the site to "Open To Only Those Who Agree With Us, Left."
It's a shame. They are very talented people but very closed minded.
So fear not, you are not alone. I still have nightmares I'm being cased down the street by David Sirota and "Rosenberg"
December 19, 2008 9:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ditto.
December 19, 2008 3:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
Dave Sirota follows people around? What's his problem?
December 19, 2008 3:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm not a fan of Sirota. Now that he's a stalker, I'm even more disenchanted...
December 19, 2008 4:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
So you're saying that on the issue of inclusion, the position of Open Left on membership in their community of commentary is little different from the position of Saddleback church on membership.
One tolerates no dissent, the other no homosexuality? Or is that a beanstalk in your pocket?
December 19, 2008 6:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
Garbage... Sometimes the log in at OpenLeft just gets touchy and won't let you in; and the only stalking that goes on over there is from the "children" that just can't wait to start a pissing match with David Sirota.
I can trust OpenLeft to provide me with principled and honest analysis. They provide balance to the other bloggers that just cheerlead and shake the can.
Obama's feet need to be held to the fire and not washed in rose water. It is why we have inaugurations and not benedictions.
Last but not least, the petty and personal attacks say a lot more about all of you than they do about OpenLeft.
December 20, 2008 6:18 AM | Reply | Permalink
Talking about being banned is a bannable offense.
Open Left and myDD bought their commenting software package from the 1971 Czech government.
December 19, 2008 11:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
YUP (and I think they sold an earlier or knockoff version of that software to Talk Left).
December 19, 2008 11:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
HuffPo is no better. If you are mean to the blogger, you get banned just like that. And their foul language checker is ridiculous. Everyone there talks u-sin-g da-sh-es in their words to avoid having comments dropped. Very third grade.
December 20, 2008 2:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
Open Left is one of my daily reads, but it does get depressing and frustrating at times to read their take on things. Sometimes it's like watching MSNBC's Morning Joe, where no matter what the story is it's somehow spun into a problem for Barack Obama. Even on those occassions where Obama has appointed someone who most progressive sites are genuinely happy about, Open Left finds a way to criticize the choice as not good enough or Obama didn't make the choice fast enough. And when someone dares to speak up to express a different perspective, they are painted as a blind Obama follower or worse. This is all particularly frustrating because Open Left is considered to be a progressive website.
Most certainly we should all make it our mission to continually push Obama to the left. Doing so is good for us and good for him. But I just don't get how this constant throwing of stones at Barack Obama and anyone connected to him along with his supporters is productive in getting anything accomplished.
Yesterday, I was blown away when Chris Bowers made the suggestion that we need to "find some way to cause political trouble for Obama at the inauguration." Imagine that. All that we have fought and worked for these past years, and now there are some within our own ranks who wish to cause trouble on this historic day.
December 19, 2008 11:41 AM | Reply | Permalink
Sounds like you're describing "closed" left!
December 19, 2008 1:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ahh, they're not liberal enough for this left-liberal. And, banning cuts both ways. I'm one of many banned from Kos for being too left-liberal and too Green in my comments.
December 19, 2008 3:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have never visited the post.
They let everybody blog here.
I am living proof.
I did get banned from Huff I think for pointing out that Mika had to be on pills and booze to look and sound so stupid on Morning Joe.
I did not even use obscenity.
I think they were plotting to censure me here when I pointed out the largess of Oprah, but that was about it.
December 19, 2008 11:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
You are forgetting that thin ice, Bucko!
December 19, 2008 8:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
HuffPo sucks these days. They went from pro-Obama to hating Obama in a span of about 24 hours. It started when he picked Clinton for SOS. The left turned on him viciously (as though Hillary fucking Clinton is an enemy!) and then it just went down hill from there.
December 20, 2008 2:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
*groan* I can't believe I read the whole thing...
j/k
I think you're absolutely correct (not "right"), and I think this conditioned is not limited to Open Left. We see evidence of this line of thought here (although usually in more reasonable, heavily hyper-linked posts).
I guess this comes from the battle mindset we've had to develop in response to the Newt Gingrich movement in the 90's. But because the Big Tent is so huge, anyone who defected in their votes or in their beliefs was viewed as Other or the Enemy and battle lines were drawn. Look at how vicious our primary campaign was this year, and there was absolutely no need for it. But the Clintons survived the 90's with their "war room" and their "scorched earth" tactics and it was a natural extension for them to turn that mindset on their own party.
Fortunately (sorry HRC fans) the Clintons didn't win this one. And, with Obama trying to create a More Purple Union we're going to experience growing pains and have to swallow our pride and work with people we don't like in order to achieve the things this country desperately needs.
Rec'd.
December 19, 2008 11:57 AM | Reply | Permalink
Really?
The left wing is realizing that governing isn't quite like writing a platform, and that winning elections means appealing to people who aren't concerned about the purity of your muesli?
I guess they know how conservatives have felt for the last thirty years now.
December 19, 2008 12:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
An interesting blog, and yes, I've noticed something like this as well.
What is it that we disliked (hated) about the Right? Their narrow-minded insistence on forcing an ideology through, "purity tests" for any candidate or official, and a willingness to spin, misrepresent, or outright lie in order to justify their policies. Terrible stuff, alright.
So why are progressives suddenly doing the same thing? It's been something that has caused me to stop reading several well-known sites. The same insistence on some purity test. The same willingness to misrepresent, spin, or even on occasion a few outright lies.
The nature of politics is that you're rarely going to get everything you want. Push too hard, at the wrong time, and you won't get much at all. It's really easy when you don't have to actually - well - govern to be at one end or the other of the spectrum. When you have to actually run things, it's not easy. You have to work with people who disagree with you, and yes, sometimes you have to take what you can get.
December 19, 2008 12:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
I love your post, but I just want to add that I think you may be a little too down on the left generally.
OpenLeft is not representative. There are always going to be groups like that -- and frankly, that's fine with me. They serve a purpose in the ecology.
But the important thing is that the real people on the left -- the voters, the foot soldiers, the constituency -- are just not divided at all. I know a lot of academics who are a lot further left than myself, including LGBT activists. And you know all that noise in the media about Rick Warren? Let me tell you what I'm hearing in reality. Here, I'll play you a tape recording of it:
chirp . . . tweet . . . (sound of a passing plane)
It ain't 2000, folks, and it isn't going to be 2000 again for a generation. We learned our lesson about hanging together or hanging separately. I'm not saying we *all* learned it, but enough of us learned it that you don't have to stay up too late worrying about Chris Bowers.
December 19, 2008 12:50 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well said.
December 19, 2008 1:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ah, but see, that's the thing, right? Obama has a 67-79% approval rating and majorities approve of the direction he's taking the country. Therefore if you approve of Obama then by definition you're the center, not the left anymore :)
...seriously, though, you are right, and I do appear to have fallen into a trap when I was writing this that I was trying to avoid. But what I maybe could have been clearer about is that my goal was not to talk about the left in general but just to talk about one specific part of the left, the part that's dissatisfied with Obama. And what I was at some level trying to say was that the reason this is the part of the left I'm focusing on is because it's the only part of the left that's interesting. If the left is not encouraging Obama further left than he is, it is not useful. Compare DailyKos, which has been calling Obama out on some of the things he's done wrong but has, in general, been all sunshine and gumdrops. Since there really is some question over what Obama will or won't do, I'm not sure this approach is really any more effective than the Bowers/Stoller "kill the beast" approach. (or maybe it is. Or maybe both will turn out to be effective in their own way, somehow! I guess we'll see what happens). Anyway thank you for your response.
December 19, 2008 3:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
You were clear about that -- I just didn't capture it well in my response.
So I'll highlight a different part of my response. Though I think this is all theater, I think it's mostly been good theater. I would point to People for the American Way. If I recall, they were actually the first group to ding Obama about Rick Warren. And I thought that was perfectly effective and appropriate -- even though in fact I agree with Obama about the issue.
I'm happy that People for the American way is sending a message that says "Rick Warren is not mainstream." Because he shouldn't be.
And I'm happy that Obama is sending a message that says "In my administration, you don't have to be certified as 'mainstream,' or approved by anyone in particular, to have a voice in the national discussion."
And I'm happy that Greg Sargent has got us all riled up about this issue, even though I think in reality the blood is all ketchup, and the "bam!" and "pow!" are strictly sound effects.
And as a consequence of the whole shebang, I think the Overton window in fact got moved one millimeter to the left. Because cable news has spent a couple days debating -- not whether gay marriage is mainstream, but whether *opposition* to it belongs in the mainstream.
In my book, everyone gets a gold star.
December 19, 2008 5:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Bingo, Alex! This is theater. The narrative changes day by day. There is no story without tension. The Lefties who are never satisfied give the story tension. Rush, Faux News and the eternally pissed-off righties provide the same function. The mainstream media need these narratives to maintain the numbers of their viewers and readers (which is what they're delivering to advertisers) Obama seems to actually want to accomplish something, which makes him a fascinating politician. The Arabs (The Arabs? Say what? I know. I know.) have a saying, "The dogs bark, but the caravan moves on."
December 19, 2008 6:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
However, just to keep this from being too saccharine . . . I do agree with you that almost none of it has been *interesting.* I can barely stay awake long enough to finish this comment.
But I'd say that's because the cultural debate really isn't where the action is right now. We all agree about the underlying issues, and it's hard (at least for me) to get deeply exercised about the politics of symbolism. The concrete debates right now are about TARP and the stimulus and healthcare: those are the discussions that are evolving rapidly, and the places where there's likely to be more real disagreement between different parts of the left coalition.
December 19, 2008 6:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
I guess this comes from the battle mindset we've had to develop in response to the Newt Gingrich movement in the 90's.
At least Newt had the wisdom to aim his guns at his political opponents.
December 19, 2008 1:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
Of course you could simply write Matt & Chris and ask them what happened. They do answer email.
Their comements or Rosenberg's was that Obama might be an ally on some issues but is not a big LBTG friend.
Then again, maybe after all their work to build up organization at the roots and on the internet, they're awful for trying to pull some meager results out of that effort, rather than continued marginalization while conservative Republicans get favored. You say they're driving allies away, but are you really an ally, or a lurker in disagreement? Maybe all these "allies" just simply aren't worth the trouble.
December 19, 2008 1:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
Of course you could simply write Matt & Chris and ask them what happened. They do answer email.
As noted at some point in the post I did email just after the incident occurred and have not as of yet received a response. Maybe I should have given them longer to respond before going off to whine on TPM, I don't know.
December 19, 2008 2:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
I've found that the best way to get someone around to agreeing (or at least acquiescing) to your point of view is to listen carefully to them and then make your argument using their words, and while respecting their beliefs. If you can show that your argument (whatever it is) actually ALIGNS with their beliefs then you can win them over.
How can you listen if you don't allow them to speak? How can you get them to be honest if you don't show human respect?
I don't like Warren much either, but he holds a powerful position of influence and he's more reasonable than most of the folks on the Right with a mouthpiece. Let him talk, show some respect (even if you have to fake it) and then LISTEN to what he says and you'll find the opening and tools you need to make your case.
My guess is that's where Obama's trying to go with this...
Or, in my grandma's words, "you catch more flies with honey than vinegar."
Whether the Left supports him after January will hinge on how much he uses this to push through the GLBT agenda.
December 19, 2008 1:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Whether the Left supports him after January will hinge on how much he uses this to push through the GLBT agenda."
That may well determine whether anybody else supports him too.
Be sure you choose the right one.
December 19, 2008 1:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
I suspect that over time Obama will appear or actually be more right of some point along the political or ideological line than a lot of people who voted for him would like.
The nation in general has moved more to the right than we were in the sixties for sure, and that is true for the mid to late eighties. We were pretty steady through the nineties and then during Bush took a right turn again. So our actual middle has moved over time reflecting the ideological extremes that happened to gain political power and which also gained control of our economic engine.
Along those same lines, for the first forty years of my life you just never saw the religious right participating in the political process like we have seen in the last twenty plus years.
The division this has created is very sharp and unmistakable. Both on the left and right there is little tolerance for giving people their due about how someone might think or believe. Its the heaven and hell argument on steroids, with no chance that it can ever be resolved. Absolutely stupid and a waste of time.
December 19, 2008 1:37 PM | Reply | Permalink
My guess is that Obama's vision of politics is floating far above the heads of either side of these culture wars. It's getting feel like the hundred years war, where the religious factions stopped killing one another largely because they simply tired of it all.
December 19, 2008 1:41 PM | Reply | Permalink
I appreciate your concern over being banned but may I point out that the progressives did not win this election, nor did the liberals, rather the people of the United States won this election. Many voters who consider themselves conservatives, right-leaning, centrists, and conservative Democrats voted for Obama, not just progressives. He told everyone what they were getting too. He is going to be president of all the citizens of this country. In order to do this he must include all views. Whether the question is black, white, gay, straight, female, male, conservative or liberal, all people must be represented at the table. If the bloggers don't like it they've got a long time ahead of them to have a snit.
December 19, 2008 1:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
MLD is right on. With the world crumbling around us this is not the time to be dividing & demanding a particular agenda. If he doesn't succeed, nothing will matter, how can you not see this? I ask you again, would you rather have Mc Cain with the possibility of Palin? Obama won because he promised us he would change the way Washington has worked & will listen to ALL people.
December 19, 2008 2:29 PM | Reply | Permalink
ITA!!!
It is time to unity to find common solutions and move the nation forward. It is like a family that fights at home but is a united front outside of those doors.
Americans are busy uniting and are no longer up for fighting and hashing out conflict with folks when things like the culture wars have gone unresolved for the past 20 years.
Folks are not moving any more forward on the GLBT issues, either. Prop8 was the death knell on that front, from one of the bluest states in the union.
We have far bigger issues that are of far greater import than abortion and gay marriage.
And we are moving forward and leaving those emotionally distasteful issues on the side of the road.
December 19, 2008 3:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Did you really just write a mini novel about being "banned" when you have no proof that you have been banned? You say "apparently" banned, and that you have not recieved any confirmation that you have been banned. Have you ever thought that it might be a glitch? I have a hard time getting into many of the blog sites on occassion, but I don't always jump to the conclusion that I was banned. Will you write an updated "apology" if in fact it was a glitch and maybe (GASP) an error on your end?
I doubt it. Odd, you say you have no proof that you have been banned, but write an article stating that you were. And you question the integrity of others? HMMMM.
December 19, 2008 2:19 PM | Reply | Permalink
I suppose it is, technically, possible that openleft suffered a database glitch that affected only me and no other user and that this happened to precisely correspond with the site staff ignoring and/or being too busy to answer email on the subject for 24 hours. This does not seem like the most logical conclusion.
Will you write an updated "apology" if in fact it was a glitch and maybe (GASP) an error on your end?
Well, yes, if that is the case.
December 19, 2008 2:44 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your enemy is your only reliable source of insight into how to win the fight. For as long as I can remember, Republicans have chided democrats as being their own worst enemies.
Republican strategy for many decades has been to throw a couple of ripe morsels into the center the ring and then step back while the many different factions of Democrats kill each other to get their grubby little paws on one of the few available morsels.
There is much press over the supposed hand ringing of the Republicans regarding how their party can possibly survive to see another day after their recent dramatic defeats. Republicans don't have to do or change much to survive and they know it; Democrats issue based greed will do it for them.
I am not gay, not female and wasn't a Clinton supporter through I am an atheist, a Democrat, a father, a worker and a citizen of the United States that is extremely worried about both my future and that of my children. I believe that we must have a liberal/progressive society for them to have a "good life" not threatened with either a precipitous descent into third world like impoverishment or theological prosecution of a 21st century dark age.
The threat to thoughtful enlightenment, economic stability and life as we know it is real, present and dangerous. I can not think of any desires of the many different issue oriented factions of our party that I don't believe in or feel that we as a nation would be better off if those desires were the realities of daily life however, the majority of those desires must be cared for with patience against the immanent threat to food, shelter and clothing we currently have staring us in the face.
All of the latest angst on gay marriage and Rick Warren, while a real and important issue to us, is not a wise use of our energy or efforts and only serves to help the opposition rebuild themselves by once again proving the point that Democrats can't govern with rational priority.
My keystone issue as a Democrat relates to the separation of church and state. Truthfully, in my deepest thoughtful moments on this topic, I would like to see the extinction of religion. Though I except I may not live to see this reality, perhaps my children will. Obama says he is a "believer" to my great disappointment. I am practical enough to live with this fact and don't believe it would be any more proper for me to try to change him than it is for "evangelicals" to try to change my lack of belief in fantasy and superstition.
With respect to the most important issues threatening our survival, those dealing with food, shelter and clothing; Obama is the right person at the right time in the right job.
Support him, his choices, his people and, how he is going about changing the devastating uncharted course our society is traveling. Remember, "It's The Journey, Not The Destination", all of us must focus on.
December 19, 2008 2:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Obama says he is a believer, and may well be. I can't know that.
Then again, saying he was a non-believer would have led to rapid political extinction at the state level, meaning we'd have never heard of this skinny kid with a funny name, as he described himself in 2004. And we'd all be very much poorer for that, now wouldn't we?
December 19, 2008 2:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
I think it is true that the progressive blogosphere is going through the inevitable crisis of success. It has been a long time since a Democrat has won the White House, a good percentage of a lot of lifetimes for many people who are now active and activist. They are so entrenched in the battle mindset that they haven't gotten out of the crouch and put the artillery down yet. Twelve years in the trenches is a very long time, and many of those years were the darkest ones for the Democratic Party since the assassination of JFK.
December 19, 2008 3:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
I like Open Left. I have a great deal of respect for the intelligence of their posters.
Let me give some of their perspective. Sure, it is wonderful that we don't have the disastrous presidency of a President McCain or a President Palin.
But look around, folks. The US is literally falling apart as we watch. There are many causes, but at root is a deeply corrupt bipartisan political culture, where policy is driven by the political contributions from people and corporate interests with more money than brains. For example, why didn't the auto companies get behind UHC decades ago, when they were competing with foreign companies with subsidized healthcare? Because the CEOs of those companies had (and still have) an idealogical opposition to UHC.
Are we now out of the woods? Look at the economics team that Obama is surrounding himself with, and don't make me laugh by telling me we have learned our lessons.
It would be nice to think that the current unprecedented economic crisis could be an opportunity, for example, to invest in a new power grid that could cut our energy waste and make a huge dent in our carbon emissions. But all the signs are that it's business as usual in DC, which means a trillion-dollar pork deal with no underlying plan for how this massive spending is an investment in our country's future. I mean, a trillion here on a stupid war in Iraq, a trillion there on what is basically turning into the mother of all pork barrels, and pretty soon you're talking real money.
Meanwhile just read the commenters from a post by Sirota, excoriating him for daring to question Obama and his secret plan. Didn't eight years of blind loyalty to a President teach us anything?
So while Chris and Matt may err sometimes on the side of intolerance, I give them some slack because they (and Stoller in particular) can see the massive sense of betrayal that is coming, as our deeply corrupt DC establishment continues to drive the country into the ditch, and becomes increasingly inured to a citizenry that feels cut off and isolated by a power structure that considers it little more than a nuisance.
December 19, 2008 4:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Could we at least wait until he's sworn in to begin decrying things he actually does, rather than castigating him for the hypothetical?
December 19, 2008 5:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
The swearing in ceremony is the problem! :P
December 19, 2008 5:46 PM | Reply | Permalink
See the quote of Bowers below.
December 19, 2008 6:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Open Left is like a straight man in a Gay Wedding- not sure about its presence or purpose. It's neither a news site nor a site for open discourse- as you experienced.
They provide the barking dogs stereo effect for the political discourse on the left. It's there amplified view point and anything less appeasing his rejected
December 19, 2008 4:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Also, they like to pretend unequivocal monopoly on morality- which is eerily similar to the blogs on the right.
Human Rights, Civil Rights or War- any issue- they like to pretend they have the moral authority- unadultrated from any practical resolutions, of course.
December 19, 2008 5:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
I hope Chris does not mind me reposting this:
In the months ahead, remember that Obama himself has signaled that he will need pressure from the left to enact progressive policies. There will be no shortage of countervailing pressure from the right.
December 19, 2008 5:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
My sympathies, mcc. On both of the far ends of the political spectrum is where the angry and judgmental people are. There are people who approach politics and society from the standpoint of trying to build, and there are those who approach it from the standpoint of wanting to judge. I like tpmcafe because it's far more the former than the latter. Rec'd, definitely.
December 19, 2008 5:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
Interesting article!
And I feel your pain. Being banned for merely disagreeing with the site's administration is - how can I put this politely - Fascist in nature. If you cannot bear to hear a dissenting voice, you are going to spend your life in a mighty small choir.
BUt much of what you say is spot-on. Keep up the good work.
December 19, 2008 6:13 PM | Reply | Permalink
In this case, really more Stalinist than Fascist, I'd say. (Not that there's a difference. Which is also a point.)
December 19, 2008 6:32 PM | Reply | Permalink
I have a concern that politics is a continuous circle. If you move too far to the left you end up to the right of Rush Limbaugh. Just a thought.
December 19, 2008 6:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Well, if the Democratic Party moved to the left it would still be to the right of Richard Nixon. When it gets as far left as Ike you can start to worry.
December 19, 2008 8:02 PM | Reply | Permalink
I didn't read the whole rant, but I think it's indulging oneself to attribute getting banned to all the complex ideology stuff.
I bet you got banned for making it personal, by calling out "Chris" and "Matt" (whoever they are) by name. Once you irritate people personally, reason goes out the window.
It's like when GWB called Kim Il a "pygmy". Was that really going to produce any positive movement from the North Koreans?
December 19, 2008 9:57 PM | Reply | Permalink
I agree with robcat2075: You got banned, if you did, for personally insulting the owners of the blog. And you did it while making a false statement: that they have no allies. They find a good deal of agreement with many of their posts.
Also, I believe you misrepresented what Stoller said in the post. Here's what seems to be the gist of it: ". . . there isn't actually that much daylight between Warren and Obama on marriage equality. There is some, of course, since Obama was against Proposition 8 and Warren was for it. And I'm sure Obama is a whole lot more gay-friendly in general than Warren, and that will have important policy implications on things like hate crimes and discrimination in the workplace. However, on the basic principle of marriage, Obama and Warren agree that marriage is for a man and a woman, which the Yes on Prop 8 side did not hesitate to point out through a multi-million dollar campaign." This seems both measured and accurate to me, and a pretty far cry from a claim of identity of their positions on marriage equality.
I think sometimes the blog betrays the relative youthfulness of its editors, for example in the juvenile harping on Caroline Kennedy, and I have a particular beef with it that is driving me away -- David Sirota's giant ego is sucking all the oxygen out of the place. But I also think that Stoller's statement in that post was unexceptionable, and certainly not deserving of the insult.
December 19, 2008 11:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Oh please, are you serious with this? You are defending this alleged banning because Chris and Matt might have had their feelings hurt? The comment at issue was so mild that to call it a personal attack is laughable. Calling these thin-skinned wussies a real name, like douche bag, would have been a personal attack. This was an observation about the approach being taken by the authors of the blog that the commenter felt was counterproductive. Good grief, how hypersensitive can these people be?
December 20, 2008 2:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
I should probably note that Chris Bowers at Open Left has seen fit to write a blog post repsonding to this one.
December 20, 2008 1:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, I just read this blog and I am staggered. Chris Bowers is an arrogant, whiny, vindictive, paranoid little prick. It should be noted that he confirms the banning while claiming he knew nothing about it and calling mcc a liar on whether he/she sent an email. This guy has thinner skin than a vegetable roll. He admitted (at least twice) to banning viewpoints he just doesn't like. How progressive! This guy is bad for the progressive movement. Interesting how he thinks he's some kind of big player, referring to "media frenzy" over one of his whiny, attention-seeking comments some weeks ago. Don't flatter yourself, Chris. It was hardly a "frenzy." You are not Rachel Maddow. Good fucking grief.
And don't bother trying to ban me. I wouldn't visit your site if it was the last site on the friggin' web.
December 20, 2008 3:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
This happened to me on Huff Post once way early in 2008 and I never could figure out why. I absolutely hadn't used any profanity or attacked anyone. I had posted what I thought was a logical opposing perspective about a prevailing viewpoint. When I queried them I got no answer. Quite mysteriously, about a week later, all was fine again with same username password. The thought police on patrol? A glitch? Who knows?
December 20, 2008 2:09 AM | Reply | Permalink
HuffPo is the new thought police. Honestly, TPM is the best site out there. This is the only place where people can be honest and where we're not treated like elementary school students.
December 20, 2008 3:03 AM | Reply | Permalink
I agree that TPM is head and shoulders above a lot of other places. The only other site I think is in the same class is DK. There are other good sites with good management and dedicated followers with their only drawback being breadth. Josh has busted his butt to make TPM what it is.
December 20, 2008 8:10 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm sorry you were banned, mcc. I honestly thought that an open exchange of opinions was wanted at Open Left, but after reading Matt Stoller refer to everyone who is staunchly supportive of Obama (in contradiction to his and other OL frontpager opinion) as "trolls" I realized that there was no willingness whatsoever to dialogue. I was more disappointed because Matt and Chris were my two hold out hopes - but Matt's troll comment just settled the nagging question. I haven't posted to a front page post since the fiasco with Paul and others a week or two back, and I decided to let my thread die too, despite having a very nice person to talk to. I'm sure I'm not missed, and I don't miss the stress of trying to be heard above the din over there. But I admit to sadness that those of us who worked to get Obama into office have so little interest in following the principles of inclusion that Obama is trying to model.
QT
December 20, 2008 2:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Hi Queen Tiye,
I always enjoyed your posts on OL and appreciated your comments to mine.
OL was my first foray into blogging. It took me a while to catch on that I was welcome there as long as I agreed with the frontpagers. If one disagreed their vengeance was swift and direct. And, there are their minions who quickly graded my comments as "troll."
Nothing like being put down by the likes of David Sirota and the infamous "Rosenberg." It was fun watching Rachel Maddow with my wife when Sirota was on and pointing out, this is the guy who hates me. It was actually was kind of elevating.
I'm no psychologist but I did detect, "issues" from many of the front pagers. Some insecurity, narcissism, and a self-serving need to be "top dog." There were always posts on how they were "burnt out," like it was our fault. Yet they all still post, endlessly. Did you read any of Sirota's posts on how he was leaving the business?
So here I am at TPM and very happy to be. The people are very smart and nice. Not everyone has agreed with me (and well they shouldn't). And, I've gotten to comment to the likes of Paul Krugman, now that's an honor, and a good feeling.
From time to time I check out OL. Sadly nothing changes but the changes.
December 20, 2008 12:42 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Open Left folks don't take criticism well. They are very defensive and when folks were pillorying Sorota for some of his chicken-little comments, he had to take a sabbatical; shortly thereafter they started issuing banning threats. They can dish it out but they can't take it. Their motto is "if we can't take the heat get out of our kitchen." So, I did.
The sad thing is that they have good values and are probably nice guys. They just can't help themselves. No one is pure enough for them, except, of course, them.
Within days of the election, they were already disappointed. The Open Left doctrine: Pre-emptive dissapointment
December 20, 2008 6:50 PM | Reply | Permalink