« Footprints on the moon. | matyra's Blog | Why we vote--Civic duty, peer pressure, or "funness"? »

Is my comment my comment?


Recently a prominent, prolific contributor left and took his blogs with him. Meaning they are deleted. But that means that my comments and any other person who contributed to a blog also had their work deleted. And by "their work", I mean that normally if you think of something and write it in your own words, then that is your work.

Say I write "Graham's harsh questioning of Sotomayor and then purported support show posturing is a predominant part of his psyche" as a comment on a blog about Sotomayor. The poster decides to leave TPM and delete the original blog. I don't know this and at one point decide that I'd like to use that comment and run with it but doesn't remember exactly what I wrote. But, crap, it's gone.

A lot of blogs have more value in the subsequent conversation after the blog than in the blog itself. Which begs the question: Who ownes blog comments? Type in "who owns blog comments" in Google and you get a few answers, often depending upon the user agreement of the site that one's on. The main three responses that I've found are:

1. If you comment you are automatically relenquishing your content to the original blogger. Which means that whatever you write belongs to the original poster, so if it's deleted in a huff, so be it.

2. Doesn't matter, anything written on a site belongs to the host site. Meaning that TPM owns everything on here.

3. What you write belongs to you. Meaning if I comment, then that's MY comment, dammit. You can't touch it.

Some of how we deal with the issue comes down to how we feel about content and the culture at our site. There is a bit of outrage about this poster leaving and deleting here. And I kind of agree with it. Looking at TPM's comment guidelines , there's no mention of who owns what. The TPM terms of use adds information that pertains to posters, the crux being:

TPM does not claim ownership of the Content you submit or make available for inclusion on the TPM websites. The Content is the property of the author of such Content. You agree to grant TPM a perpetual, royalty-free and irrevocable right and license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish, translate, distribute, transmit, publicly display, publicly perform, sublicense, create derivative works from, transfer, and sell such Content in any format now know or hereafter created, and to use your name and other identifying information you provide in connection with that Content. You also permit any visitor or member of the TPM websites to use such Content for personal use as described above.
But isn't my comment my comment? Isn't my comment my content? The terms of use basically eliminate my #2. Besides, just the fact that I can delete my own blogs also means that I control my added content. So #1 or #3 are left: Either the commenter owns the comments or the original blogger owns it. But again, since the original poster has the power to delete everything including other's comments, implicitly that means that the answer is the answer is #1: On TPM, the poster owns the comments.

So if you comment on this blog, are your thoughts now my thoughts ?


95 Comments

| Leave a comment
user-pic

Speaking as someone who once deleted a blog I had written, on which several people had commented, I was sorry to do it, but had my reasons (which don't need to be rehashed).

I remember thinking that it was unfortunate that I was cutting off the conversation that was developing, which is how I see a thread--as a conversation started by a piece of writing. However, since TPM gives us "our own blogs", I think it's the writer's decision whether or not to take it down. CT is not the first person to delete it all. I know of one other, but he went quietly.

user-pic

I'm not familiar with the situation you're referring to, but would it have been enough for you to delete just the blog, but leave the comments (if that's even possible)?

Granted, some of the comments would seem, in retrospect, kind of strange without the original blog, but on the other hand, some of the discussions that sprout move in fundamentally different directions from the original blog.

user-pic

No, CT Voter. When the blogs go, the comments go, also. Meaning, the comments are yours until they're not.

user-pic

I guess theoretically, you could manage the blog, go into editing mode, delete all that you wrote and then hit save. But it would then be kind of a headless blog and take a few additional keystrokes.

user-pic


This is My Comment (sing to the tune of This is My Country) I like to singa singa, like birds in the Springa

lol, Sea

user-pic

Sure, I could do that, but in my case it was the a few particular comments I objected to--not what I wrote.

user-pic

They aren't really deleted as much as they are unpublished. I just did it with one of mine. Poof. Blog and comments disappeared from public view.

To verify: Make sure you are logged in. Go to Blog Now. Click on the arrow next to Manage and then click on Entries. Put a check mark next to one of your blogs and then click on More Actions in the drop down box. Click Unpublish Entries.

Unpublished blogs have what looks like a pencil in the column to the left. The published blogs have a check mark within a green circle.

To republish the blog, put a check mark in the box and click on the Publish button to the left of the "More Actions" drop down box. Blog and comments are now restored.

PS - I put this in Ripper's blog before I saw yours, Matyra. So now it's in both. :-)


user-pic

Cool, thanks! I've really not explored all the ins and outs of Movable Type, that helps a bit.

user-pic

If you write something important save it on your computer. It's not rocket science. Or save the entire page / thread if it's an important topic. I do it all the time right from in the browser. Click - Click, done.

user-pic

True, it isn't rocket science to save what you consider your work. And if it's important should be done. But I'm trying to think about who owns your words. My understanding is that anything that you come up with and write down is strictly yours. No exceptions unless you've given that right away. But there are different rules that apply here.

user-pic

As far as posting on public sites like TPM et al, I believe the author of a post is the copyright holder but participation in the blog gives the blog operator non-exclusive rights to the posted content. How all this works can be and is governed in various ways and is modifiable by the terms of service agreement for a particular blog site.

user-pic

Wait, who left in a huff?

user-pic

I'm sketchy on the details (was out of state and offline) don't know truly if this person left "in a huff". But what I'm talking about here stems from comments in Ripper's blog about clearthinker: http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/ripper_mccord/2009/07/i-miss-clearthinker.php

user-pic

Shoot, I really like Clearthinker. But you know, Matyra, and this'll be my answer, for what it's worth about your "who owns our comments?" question:

Things happen. I was a huge fan of a commenter here named cscs and that person is gone. As for my comments... heck, I wish some of them would be taken down! As for who owns them... like Denise Richards, it's complicated. We created them, Josh hosts them, many of them only exist because, like this, they are responses to other people's thoughts...

None of it matters, really. Like what you're writing as you're writing it, enjoy caring about ideas, keep your own copy of anything you'll want later and, in the end, like and enjoy the people who are here while they're here.

user-pic

Oh, man, I had forgotten about cscs. I miss cscs too. And Howard Berkowitz too.

user-pic

I miss McCainPal.

user-pic

“But isn't my comment my comment?”

Yes and no.©

If I’m not mistaken, no action has to be taken to copyright the content of anything original that you’ve written (hence the release in the TOA). But I don’t think TPM is obligated to archive it. I think they do archive most stuff (I’m not sure if blogs deleted by the paid contributors are), but it’s not easy to find old comments (at least to me). They used to have a running list of all of your comments on the old interface. At least I can only find old comments by searching the general archives bit by bit.

user-pic

Don Key is correct. Once your comment appears in printed form, it is automatically protected by copyright. You own it. However, you don't own a right to insist that it remain in public view on an Internet site run by someone else.

Like others, I've started to keep those of my comments I thought were worth remembering (the small minority) on my hard drive. That's so I can reuse them, not because I intend to sue the hundreds of other authors who will try to plagiarize my memorable prose.

user-pic

LOL, thanks for the insights, Fred and Don. And it kind of makes sense that you own your own words--but not everything else. Otherwise graffiti artists would be able to claim that to remove their work from someone's back wall is copyright infringement.

user-pic

My copyrighted phrase, "Yes and no" can be licensed at $1 per use. It is a phrase that would be especially beneficial to politicians, philosophers, CEOs and psychotherapists in almost any circumstance.

user-pic

You have forced me to now use the phrase "No and Yes". It's awkward, but I'm cheap.

user-pic

Is "no and yes" awkward?

Well, yes and no.

Damn, now I owe you...

user-pic

I think it may be best that we have the option to delete.

There may be circumstances where it is a good idea. Clearly if someone is known to delete blogs, which CT was known to have done in the past, you may want to consider that.

AND if there is a blog you feel is important to you that may includes some comments you want to preserve, you clearly can save it somewhere:)

Frankly I am more upset by the loss of the content of CT's blogs than the comments, though there may have been some meaningful ones lost.

user-pic

Agreed.

user-pic

I know. I found a cached version of the most recent faxing blog, which was pure gold. But don't know if others are gone forever, and no longer have the easy option of just clicking on the yin/yang symbol and finding it.

user-pic

It seems to me that if a blogger has the right of deleting his/her blog, it would be completely impractical to save posts on the thread. How would they ever be found?

My thought is that if you have a comment that you think is worthy of saving for posterity, cut & paste it. But how many comments are of that value? Anyhoo, if you think yours are, save them unless you feel some confidence that a Clearthinker type is not going to get all wounded and take his marbles and go home. It actually is not common here.

BTW, Hi, Clearthinker! I know you're lurking! Come back any time!

user-pic

Well, I think honest people tend to leave their blogs up.

Thing is, there are lots of reasons to take one down. I did once because I was afraid for someone I mentioned in mine, and wanted to protect them.

Others take theirs down because on reflection, they were utter jerks.

I think the blogger in question falls into the latter catagory. But If we allow taking down blogs for good reason, then we have to allow blogs taken down for reasons that are more, er, due to vanity.

user-pic

Well, in CT's case I'd venture that the author wasn't a jerk despite any recent controversies and so... maybe he/she just wanted to leave a more accurate impression of themselves.

Ah well... so long as you continue to hang around my fine feathered friend.

user-pic

=D

user-pic

Jesus, can't we all just pitch in and buy CT some friends?

I don't get a chance to log in here as frequently as I would like and I would love to stop by and not have any posts up dedicated his lonely bruised ego.

user-pic

This post was not dedicated to CT. This was me trying to think something through about the ownership of what we write. I did get the idea while reading a post dedicated to CT, but that's neither here nor there.

user-pic

wish I could edit my comment. That's supposed to be ironic, not asshat.

user-pic

Technically, this is not quite right.

Truth is, I own your comments. A while back, when Josh was raising cash, it didn't get all that much attention, but the Readers Blogs archives hit the auction block.

So - besides picking up my own back posts & comments (pure gold), I also picked up a lot of yours.

Cheap. Hell, I got Mark's, Cville's, LarryH's and 23 cat avatars in one block, for $23.99. It was like buying those K-Tel boxed sets on late night TV. Similar quality too.

However. I did manage to pick up SOME top notch stuff. I tapped out Genghis' collected works, which I'm going to use to quote back at him, mockingly. Then Destor's, which look better once you've drawn scarves and capes and shit all over them. I got the Peeg's complete final edition, including links to fine video materials, no more than 25% of which are pornographic. Obey's, which read much better if you beat them with a stick. Then I picked up about 1/3 of Dick's, the other 2/3's having broken down into a fine mulch which Josh didn't really want to bag up for sale. I even got Billy Glad's, just because I thought it was important to have evidence that someone on this site could actually write. But every time I tried to open the volume up it just kept telling me I wasn't worthy and should fuck off out of here.

After a while, I guess I got a bit greedy. I donno why, but I glommed onto the whole dadgum DagBlog back-set, which - to tell the truth - I now feel is about like owning the entire Styx oeuvre. Then got LisB, her entire family and closest 164 friends.

Finally, all that was left unsold was Des' works... Rutabaga's... and Gasket's. So in the interests of public safety - and the sanity of your children - I took out a loan, won the bidding (against some Chechens who apparently felt they could come in handy), wrapped them carefully in some old fertilizer bags, and dumped them down a mine shaft.

Oh yeah. And Clearthinker? He didn't pull the plug on his blogs and back comments.

I bought his ass.

And if you don't do as I say, I'll republish them.

What's that Obey? Yes, I do believe I would like some grapes. And Peegie, keep that fan working. Or else I'll request that you go back and reread my comment. And a link to Kevin Phillips.

And stop you from reproducing.

user-pic

See, now I was right there with you, advocating the power of unfettered capitalism, free markets, and back room deals, but you had to drag Kevin Phillips into it. Kind of like Josh referring to the stovepipe as trollish or whuteveh. Once you've crossed a line you can never go back, all innocence is lost, even LisB folds her cards of acceptance and retreats to her tent outside the citadel's gate, waiting for the next enchantress to bewitch the mutton-headed bloggers, who barely know how to string a few words together without forcing the more genteel of us to reenact scenes from Abu Ghraib ala the final scene in 'The Devil in Miss Jones'.

user-pic

Under the Disney Amendment I expected to have full rights over all my materials for fifty years after my death, which means I would have another...say 43 years left in which I could do anything with my art.

And this capitalist bum takes it all away...of course I fooled the bastard and bundled 20% of my stuff into a virtual book--of which there are 25 readers at my last count, or should I say 25 different people who now have less gigs than before I emailed the masterpiece--and yet, I am to think it was all for nought and now I am but computer fodder.

Alas and alack and alack and alas.

user-pic

Sorry Dick, but Josh threw in everything you ever wrote - from your alack right down to your alas.

But keep writing. Every good one-liner you come up with creates a future revenue stream for me from T-shirt sales.

(I wish the pig would say something smart that I could put on a T-shirt. Right now, all I can really count on from him is hog belly futures.)


user-pic

"Eat mo' Trolls"?

user-pic

©

user-pic

Ha ha ha, being constructed from titanium shavings, my comments burn anaerobically, so no matter how much fertilizer you toss on them, no matter how deep the shit gets, it's burn, baby, burn.

But glad you're thinking of the children, Childhood's End and all that. Dance, sucker, dance.

Besides, while you idiots were capturing the words, I was capturing the silence. All ur spaces r belong 2 us. Triple p3wn3d. I can reconstruct anything from the hole left in the permafrost. Get bit.

user-pic

Much too long and convoluted for a T-shirt logo. Try thinking along the lines of 'Phosphorescent Iridescent Childhood's End', 'tho "Triple p3wn3d" has possibilities.

user-pic

And "Get bit", now that I think of it... For the more erudite "Fuck Off!" demographic.

user-pic

I like "Get bit."

user-pic

It's gonna be a perfect campaign slogan for someone in 2012 -- "Bet Git."

user-pic

T-Shirt slogan:
"No comment."

user-pic

And there I was waiting for some break-out Dylan. And you, the literary one...

user-pic

I took the pledge, remember? (I know I've lapsed but I've tried.) So it's up to you -- far more fearless than I ....

user-pic

I tried to help you with your courage - just a word or 2 at a time, ease into it. See, this guy just picked up his words and walked away. They're powder puffs at heart, these tough guys.

user-pic

Maybe so -- in the current bravado/powderpuff department. But I've not forgotten Billy Glad, who didn't phase me here -- in fact he made me laugh out loud when he said I would be "weak in the knees" if I encountered Hillary Clinton in an elevator (really bizarre conjecture, that). But I confess -- after he listed what I interpreted as purposely demeaning hoops through which I must jump before he would consider allowing me to post a bit of fiction on Annals for peer response, I felt pistol-whipped. (I was grateful to Tom Manoff, btw, who encouraged me to come back. Maybe later, or maybe not.)
Anyway. Thank you sincerely, Desidero, for TPM backbone splints, greatly appreciated.

user-pic

By the way, that Deep Capture link you provided was amazing, frightening in its content (and also in its need of editing).

user-pic

Yeah, those guys are a bit long-winded.

user-pic

Well, I don't whether to be pissed off that you didn't consider mine worth having, or just figure that I'm probably included in Lissy's 164 closet friends and call it good...

user-pic

Hey what are you complaining about Stilli. 2/3 of my stuff is being used in somebody's garden.

user-pic

He's such a card, isn't he???

user-pic

I haz closet friends?

user-pic

laughing uproariously! uh, make that closest! But then I don't know, do you have closet friends??? heeheeheeheehee!

user-pic

Um.....no comment.

;)

user-pic

Guess I'm mixing up the terms "closet banger" with "closet friend". Who's closest is left as a class exercise.

user-pic

This is a genius comment, quinnie. ;-)

user-pic

cosign,

user-pic

LMAO!

I just hope you keep your bills paid now that you have all of our writing as assets because if you default on something those Chechens could get everything.

user-pic

Chechens can haz pitchforks?

user-pic

Jeez, 'til now I never saw the connection.

The Chechen Cheekhen.

Halp! Halp! Homeland Securrrrrrrrrrity!

It haz peetchforx!

user-pic

hahahaha!

FYI, all my comments have Comment Default Swaps attached which blow up in your face when they're all proved horribly wrong.

Short the Q, I say!

This comment, btw, defaults immediately upon submission.

user-pic

Comment default swaps? Very clever, Obey. But maybe Quinn will follow Disney's game plan, and will therefore offer us a one-time opportunity to buy our classics back, "before they are returned to the vault, forever...."?
What say you, Quinn? T-shirts are a red herring. What's your real profit plan?

user-pic

I aim to just let word of mouth & the magic of inflated self-esteem do its magic for a while. People'll soon start stressing. They'll remember some eviscerating comeback they once penned, a turn of phrase so nasty they'll want to hand them down to their children - but safe, in a velvet-lined trunk. And then they'll remember....

I own that comeback.

They'll be talking with friends out at the cottage, telling them about the insight they inserted as comment #118 on C'ville's blog, and said friends will drop to their knees, and announce that such words could only have been coined by a Zen Master, and that the author of such glorious truths should immediately publish a book, have a show, do a tour, set up a shrine, permit themselves some worshippers, maybe even a sixpack of groupies. And then, they'll remember.

I own that insight.

JOSH MARSHALL WAS A FOOL... A FOOL, I TELL YOU!
I OWN IT ALL! TPM READERS BLOGS ARE MINE!
MOOOO-HOOO-HA-HA-HA!

Bidding starts @75 cents per oeuvre, 9:30 AM EST, Tomorrow.

user-pic

Auctions generally have previews...wait a minute -- now there's a really bad idea, as contributors' face-saving entirely dependent on notoriously quirky owner's good graces on the day.
Hmmm. Instead of buying them back, how about an option to pay you a modest flat fee to deep-six the lot?

user-pic

lol. Well, crap. This invalidates the whole question! So, when are you going to write up licensing terms and such?

user-pic

I await your bidding, my master.

user-pic

Errrrrm, probably be a good thing if you'd crawl up there 2 comments & disarm those Comment Default Swaps that Obey The Financial Terrer-Pug put in place.

After you complete this, best to just play it safe and follow the Geithner-Summers Protocol:

i) Give him all your money,
ii) Promote him to VP, and
iii) Maybe throw him a small parade.

And if you fail, Destor, well... book one of those dual-purpose "Promotion or Death" parades, willya? We'll send you out in style, big man.

user-pic

I think what we write belongs to us, but if you really want it and to have some degree of control over it then you need to keep your own file of comments by copying the comments you own and filing or otherwise storing them at a different location.

user-pic

It all belongs to TPM. This is his bathroom stall and we wrote on it. but when he wishes to take it away he gets the graffiti[sp?] too

user-pic

Wow. Such intensity.

I hereby authorize anyone to delete any of my comments anytime. Which of course invites the sensible rejoinder "Like , why would anyone bother?"

user-pic

So CT took his blog-ball home a hissy fit, mimicking Rodney Dangerfield. It's a non-issue suitable for limp-wristed deers to ruminate on in the headlights. I thseldomm sgreded with CT's analysis, but at least they aren't the ususl copy-pasta rehash predonminsticng coontempory comftrvstism.

user-pic

Are you typing wiffood in your mouf?

user-pic

And wollingdown his chin. ;-)

user-pic

I have no comment.

;)

user-pic

I love the poetry of your title, matyra.

user-pic

Removing comments here means nothing.

If you want to keep them make a copy.

If you want to impress people with them, put them in a blog.

Why is what you said a week ago relevant to today?

Maybe it is.

Maybe it isn't.

Just make today's comment relevant.

The whole premise of your question I find wrong, because the remedy is so simple as to make the inquiry irrelevant.

user-pic

My question was about ownership, not about saving your work.

user-pic

what exactly does owning your comments on a web site mean?

i cant remove my blog which you think the I own because your comments which you own are a part of it??


shhessh.

if you start to get paid for what you write here then you might have a point.

but i doubt you would make it.

most things are simple.
or just silly.

user-pic

Okay, after thinking about this for a few days, I've decided that clearthinker's removal of his posts is an extravagantly wasteful act. It makes his own contribution here a literal waste of time (how many years did he post here?), a waste of energy (both in kilowatt and caloric units), a waste of history (of which he was himself claimed to be a student), a waste, even, of art.

For someone who always bragged (haughtily, I might add) about being so conservation-minded, I find that amusingly ironic. But clearthinker was never one for recognizing his own contradictions.

In any case, matyra, your comments are your property, not his and not TPM's. Always were yours, always will be yours.

user-pic

Clearthinker left? What a crybaby.

My opinion though, is that comments are just that, and we don't own them in any real sense. What CT did is just childish and destructive, but he has every right to do it. It just makes him seem to be even a bigger jerk than we already thought, if that's even possible.

user-pic

LOL!

I think there's a certain poetic justice in the fact that many people have no idea (let alone sympathy) that he left.

user-pic

What a great thread! :-) Hope it's gonna stay up!

user-pic

Like it? Thera, it's yours for only $3.99!! Limited offer. Act quickly!!!

(I realize I have no ownership rights over this thread, but this is what they call financial innovation. Just roll with it!)

user-pic

I probably came back too late for the great price! Likely someone else owns it now - complete with my comment! ;)

user-pic

Mebbe if TPM disables the "delete" feature? I mean, if you have a good reason to delete it, you could ask the webmaster... but if it's a good conversation, and you felt strongly enough to write it in the first place... why not just leave it there?

user-pic

I will pay good money to anyone who can delete, in toto, my comments. I would give my eyeteeth just to have Salon letters expunged.
My only hope is that nobody reads them or, if they do, doesn't take them seriously.
But I'd feel a lot better if I knew that all my comments, everywhere, were deleted.
They'll be used against me some day, I know it.

user-pic

And there I was waiting for some break-out Dylan. And you, the literary one...

user-pic

You said that already.

user-pic

Placed it up where it belonged.

user-pic

Okay, folks, let's disperse quietly.

Clearthinker has finally hit his/her moment of clearthinking and removed all these contentious tidbits and saving him/herself the embarrassment of these ravings and ourselves from the embarrassment of arguing against inchoate madness.

Those who write on bloggers' walls
should roll their shit in little balls
those who read these words of wit
should eat those little balls of shit.

15 minutes of fame, or until Google's cache runs out - that's our new sound barrier. Do Androids dream of electric sheep? Do you really want those writings back?

user-pic

But, but... the light that burns twice as bright, burns half as long, (and all that dreaming of electric sheep won't make our fleeting, self induced fame last longer). That 15 minutes is down to 7-1/2 minutes for some of our luminaries here, and all the more motive for Quinn, Josh, or whomever to enshrine those nuggets in a comment archive, not unlike a comic archive, to later relive the glory days when we stood face to face with clarity, looked it in the eye, and dreamt of those megakilowatt Artiodactylates bounding razorwire fences into new models of digital information housing.

user-pic

Gotta light?

user-pic

Burn baby, burn!

Leave a comment

Share
Close Social Web Email

"To" Email Address

Your Name

Your Email Address