Imprecatory prayer--Praying for Obama to die
Later in the interview, Colmes returned to Drake's answer to make sure he heard him right.
"Are you praying for his death?" Colmes asked.
"Yes," Drake replied.
"So you're praying for the death of the president of the United States?"
"Yes."
This isn't the first time that Drake has prayed for someone to die. He claims to have been asking God to kill the recently slain women's health doctor, George Tiller. Imprecatory prayer is a rarely performed type of prayer, cited in the Bible's Psalms, which is a curse to bring "death and misfortune" to your enemies. Drake is proud to use God for his message of hate, and backs it up:
"It is in the Bible, and we are proud to say as Southern Baptists that we believe the Book," he said. "You've got to believe the whole Book, brother, or you don't believe any of it."
Regardless of Drake's words, some Southern Baptists have spoken out against this rhetoric, including pastor Dwight McKissic in Arlington,
Texas. McKissic is African American and has praised Obama in the past.
McKissic, who is asking the SBC this year to adopt a resolution celebrating the election of the nation's first African-American president, said if Drake was identified in the interview as a Southern Baptist, then his remarks should not go unchallenged.
Personally, I think that Drake's prayers are worthless. But some people do listen to his words--those on the lunatic fringe. One has already killed a doctor and now Drake is on the radio saying that he is asking God to kill Obama.
What he really is asking is for one of his listeners to do it.
Crap, I didn't mean to rec my own blog. That's me, always pushing buttons....
Still, it alarms me how little some Evangelicals can be true to their own faith. This isn't just disgusting, it's counter to everything that they say they believe. I think that if conservatives are to become legitimate again, they have to get rid of hypocrisy. It's dangerous and distasteful.
June 9, 2009 2:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
I was reading the comments on the link you provided and this one hit me right between the eyes....
written by Argon, June 07, 2009
"The silence of the "moderate" Baptists with regard to the "radical" Baptists is every bit as deafening as the silence of the moderate Muslims with regard to the radical Muslims."
The moderate element of any large group has usually been able to keep the extremes on a more or less even keel. But, this does not seem to be the case anymore.
June 9, 2009 2:49 PM | Reply | Permalink
Great phrase. I googled it and got this about the Muslim moderates: http://www.mail-archive.com/proletar@yahoogroups.com/msg37954.html
I kind of think it's viral. In US in the 60s, some people got to protesting, and then protesting was OK, and then more and more did it. Now, moderates haven't been voicing while the fringe has.
But I don't know what it will take for the current equilibrium to tip. Often we're complacent in the U.S. until we have to change. Which means something jarring has to happen. I don't think Tiller's death is even close to enough.
June 9, 2009 3:05 PM | Reply | Permalink
Frank Shaeffer has gone on Rachel Maddow to disclaim the extremists. He WAS an extremist and has actually had the stones to admit he has a part in Dr. Tiller's death and is very saddened by it. He regrets that people have taken it this far and now is not involved with the movement, although he remains Pro-Life. He abhors the extremist rhetoric and is actively seeking a more reasonable discussion of the matter. He was voicing his opposition to the heated rhetoroic long before the murder of Dr. Tiller.
June 10, 2009 1:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, kudos for him. Isn't it amazing when people can discuss something like humans, without death threats and spittle? Moderate Christians should be ashamed of people who claim to be Christian but only spew hate.
June 10, 2009 10:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
Wow. Good catch, flower.
This is from matyra's link below on Muslim moderates. It was written by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a former member of the Dutch Parliament and a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute, which should pretty much inform where he is coming from:
Indeed.
June 9, 2009 9:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Funny how Christians and Muslims have the same problem--that the majority often gives its voice to the extremists.
June 10, 2009 10:26 AM | Reply | Permalink
Ayaan Hirsi Ali is a she.
Her memoir, "Infidel", is well worth reading.
June 10, 2009 5:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
This is so disgusting. The horrible part of all this is that all of those who follow these "leaders" know in their souls that prayers are never answered. They KNOW it in their feeble little brains, although they don't admit it. So what do they do? They kill people like Dr. Tiller. How many people want/plan to kill our president? If they really believed in the "power of prayer" they could just sit back and be intellectually challenged as they watch "American Idol" and wait.
Some idiotic maniac is plotting right now. He has been given permission by these religious nuts and others (like Newt, who is to religion as Chef Boy-Ar-Dee is to Italian food). I hope the plotters get caught, but there are so many of them...Jon Voight - is he only one of many? Probably.
Very telling that they can't trust the POWER OF PRAYER!
June 9, 2009 8:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
And then there's always this: God helps those who help themselves. You're right, though--this is really disgusting.
June 10, 2009 10:30 AM | Reply | Permalink
"You've got to believe the whole Book, brother, or you don't believe any of it."
There's yer problem.
June 9, 2009 8:40 PM | Reply | Permalink
See that thar part where it says I can have 5 wives and slaves...Well, brother, either you believe the whole book or you dont belive any of it?
June 9, 2009 10:51 PM | Reply | Permalink
oops, that wasnt a question. Nice new avatar Matyra!
June 9, 2009 10:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks! I didn't know if its working or not. My screen still shows the old one. Probably the cache.
I've always loved astronomy and my project is looking at the origin of the solar system (kind of like the purpose of religion without the religion). So, why not a cool Hubble galaxy?
June 10, 2009 10:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
Actually, the Bible does not condone multiple wives. It provides history about those who had multiple wives, but nowhere is the practice condoned. If you read the Bible closely, you will find that Jacob, and Soloman, for instance, suffered great heartache for the very reason that they had multiple wives.
June 10, 2009 6:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, and that shirt he's wearing in the picture look's suspiciously like a cotton/polyester blend. Tsk. Leviticus 19:19.
June 10, 2009 8:43 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, he hasn't said "Jehovah" - oh crap ...
June 10, 2009 10:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, when I used to go to Sunday school (and, it was a Southern Baptist one), we were taught that Jesus's stuff overrode the older stuff, mostly. I don't know if it was atypical, but this church at least tried to do that 'don't judge' stuff.
I wonder if Drake does all of the stuff in the Bible about food. Does he sacrifice animals in his back yard? Does he use mortars and pestles to pound his grain? If he isn't doing everything, then he's a "back-slipping Christian"!
More on food:http://www.answers.com/topic/food-in-the-bible
June 10, 2009 10:38 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, Pat Robertson as I have pointed out a hundred times, prayed for Supreme court Justices to die during w's admin. I mean holding hands and praying for death. hahahahahah
The whole thing is hilarious to me.
Except, some guy with a two hundred dollar gun may be stopping to think about the prayer. Maybe he can do god's work?
June 9, 2009 9:24 PM | Reply | Permalink
Heck, I thought guns came with Happy Meals. Maybe we've got some progress if they cost $200!
June 10, 2009 10:40 AM | Reply | Permalink
This stuff drives me nuts. In the same vein, but different, this in from Fox News this week:
Playboy's apology included the statement that they weren't trying to incite violence against women. That was not good enough for Megyn who was righteously outraged. Watch the video -- it's not long.
While I too abhor what Playboy did, it strikes me as odd that this is also the same station where Bill O'Reilly is vigorously defending himself against accusations that he played a part in Dr. Tiller's murder with his multiple "Tiller the Killer" routines.
June 9, 2009 9:38 PM | Reply | Permalink
The Daily Show has to get a hold of this, or Colbert!
June 10, 2009 1:44 AM | Reply | Permalink
I'm surprised they haven't already, GZ, although I think Colbert has been out of the country. :-)
June 10, 2009 4:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
That's the thing. It's so tasteless and disgusting that it's funny. With Colbert's shaved head, he could even add a twist and add more hate to make fun of.
June 10, 2009 10:48 AM | Reply | Permalink
As Tom Tomorrow pointed out this week, conservatives live in a world where people are highly susceptable to the pernicious effects of video games, popular music and situation comedies but totally unaffected by the ravings of people who actually purport to be in the business of trying to shape people's opinions.
June 10, 2009 8:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying war against them, or in adhering to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort. No person shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court.
U.S. Const. Art. III., Sec. 3.
Does publicly praying for someone's death amount to solicitation for murder, and, if so is that an overt act?
Given the history of unstable adherents of such types, shouldn't the FBI at least be inquiring who is corresponding with this nut?
June 9, 2009 11:09 PM | Reply | Permalink
Too hazy to convict. He's saying that he's praying for Obama's death, hinting for someone to do it, encouraging them implicitly. But he hasn't said anything conspiratorial, just disgusting.
The FBI's probably got or will have a file, though. If I was the FBI, I'd be watching him pretty closely. There's always the possibility of more beneath the surface....
June 10, 2009 10:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
...shouldn't the FBI at least be inquiring who is corresponding with this nut?
Would help if the correspondent was brown and of the Muslim persuasion. But a white right wingnut with 10 legal semi-automatics in his car and a bumper sticker that shouts "Kill Obama" is just a natural born citizen and verified voter.
June 10, 2009 12:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
The problem with waiting for moderate Baptists to speak out is that 75% of them have left the SBC. For a long time, the moderates were the leaders, but the rabid conservatives took over the denomination in the 70s and 80s with exactly the same tactics they've used in politics, especially fear of the "libruls" and all the havoc they would reap. The same thing happened with the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod in the early 70s, but their "moderates" had the sense to leave. Baptists kept hanging around, like an abused spouse, trying to "work it out."
The Southern Baptist Convention was formed in the mid-1800s; they split from the Northern Baptists over - you guessed it - slavery.
June 10, 2009 7:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for the info. I never thought about why you had Baptists and Southern Baptists, but it makes complete sense.
June 10, 2009 10:58 AM | Reply | Permalink
What strikes me is the self-righteousness of Drake. He says he's proud to be on the fringe. Which is to say, an extremist. I didn't see any specific complaint Drake has against Obama, in the article. Merely the need, as Drake feels it, for Obama to repent. I wonder if Drake prays for the death of all people who have yet to repent? Anyhow, shouldn't Drake be praying for Obama's soul instead of his death?
Isn't it interesting how so many right-wing 'Christians' seem to refer only to old testament teachings and rarely, if ever, to new testament teachings, the gospel of Christ? I don't know who disciples that makes right-wing Christians, such as Drake, but it would seem to make them disciples to someone OTHER than Jesus Christ.
June 10, 2009 9:08 AM | Reply | Permalink
Like I said in a comment above, if Drake isn't sacrificing animals in his back yard, then he's a hypocrite.
June 10, 2009 10:56 AM | Reply | Permalink
@New10, 2nd para:
Yeah, who in their right mind would follow that crazy, outmoded Old Testament and disregard the cooler, retooled New one?
(/snark)
It's enough to say that fundamentalism and extremism are diseases unto themselves; the specific religions involved are often secondary, especially we're talking about fringe followers. Sure, some teachings are wackier than others, but ultimately I think it's a dead end to argue that one religion is better than another. Better to speak in term of universal, humanistic values, as Obama advocated in his "Call To Renewal Keynote" on June 28, 2006. All religions are mixed bags, imo, and people will generally take the parts they're already inclined to, for better or worse.
(link to speech: http://www.barackobama.com/2006/06/28/call_to_renewal_keynote_address.php)
I certainly agree that it's up to moderate, peaceful believers to help self-police their faiths. Of course, having some raving lunatic on TV is probably better for the ratings...
June 10, 2009 11:28 AM | Reply | Permalink
I can't tell if you're laughing with me or at me, acujimmy.
June 10, 2009 11:37 AM | Reply | Permalink
@New10 - very much with you, other than the cautionary note about how you framed your argument in the second para.
June 10, 2009 12:45 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks, for that clarification. It's good to share a laugh. I do, however, standby that second paragraph of mine. To be a Christian, IMHO, is to primarily follow the teachings of the New Testament. Of course, NEW and Old Testaments together form the Bible, but even Jesus said not an eye-for-an-eye, but rather, turn-the-other-cheek. Jesus, himself, makes clear that his gospel is intended not only as a supplement to the Old Testament, but is intended to supersede it in many regards.
Too many right-wing "Christians", such as Mr. Drake, seem all too eager to ignore key teachings about love, compassion, and non-judgmentalism as revealed in the New Testament, in favor of a self-righteous and hypocritically applied Old Testament fire-and-brimstone style judgments of who has sinned. That's not what I read in the gospel of Christ. They want to hunt, judge, and punish witches. Some things never change. Religious, they may be, but Christian, I don't see.
June 10, 2009 2:00 PM | Reply | Permalink
@New10 - I agree that the likes of Wiley Drake are not following the essential teachings of Jesus, but you might -- in the spirit of how Obama worded his Cairo speech -- think about how you present your argument here. Presumably you find Drake's conduct abhorrent, and would find common ground with non-Christians who do as well. How, then, might your argument sound to those who follow the Hebrew Bible (more or less what Jews call the O.T.), who strive to live their lives with love, compassion, and non-judgmentalism, principles that aren't unique to Christianity or even religion at all?
On the other hand, you are telling it like it is, theologically, and if your intended audience is Christian, you've done well. Christianity does claim to supersede Judiasm. Most religions say "ours is the best" in some way or other, and as such are inherently provincial. They have to have some sort of differentiation from other faiths, or they may not succeed; it amounts to a sort of natural selection of "memes" (analogous to genes, except they're ideas). All religions can be described as meme-complexes, or collections of ideas that seek to establish themselves in the minds of the hosts. They need some kind of "hook" a/o "threat": http://pespmc1.vub.ac.be/MEMLEX.html
And sorry if my own choice of words seems to belittle faith. Bottom line, it's more important to me what a person is like than what they believe. As a Christian friend of mine says, "proselytize by example". So, anyone praying for the Pres to die is certainly twisting and demeaning Christianity, and I agree with you entirely that the contrast with Jesus's life and teaching is striking. But if a Jew did the same, one could persuasively argue that s/he was straying from the essentials of Judiasm, and so on for virtually all mainstream religions (and probably many of the emerging ones as well -- you know the saying, start as a cult, end as a religion).
So I'd put it this way: people like Wiley Drake are deluded (and probably evil) assclowns for sure. At that point, it kind of goes without saying that they're also likely to be poor exponents of whatever their faith may be.
Fun and interesting discussion here; hope that's mutual... I've been both inside and outside a couple of different faiths, and my biases must be obvious. I can't talk about religion "neutrally" without implicitly denying any creed's "final revelation"-type tenets. But, cf. Obama's faith speech, it is possible to find common ground around universal, humanistic (whether secular or not) values.
June 10, 2009 4:06 PM | Reply | Permalink
well said. Perhaps, I've misunderstood what you had intending by your mild criticism of that second paragraph. My intent thereof was to highlight the hypocrisy of any Christian who would make a death prayer. While a Jew may find precedent for imprecatory praying in the Torah, such prayers are illegitimate for anyone calling himself a Christian. I'm not questioning the tenants of either Judaism or Christianity. I am, however, questioning the sincerity and piety of Mr. Drake and his ilk.
June 10, 2009 7:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks, our posts overlapped, and I think we pretty much agree. On intercessory prayer, I don't know what Jews would say, but I'd strongly bet that mainstream peaceful types would say "we don't do that anymore, nor do we advocate that slavery stuff, etc." Maybe some extreme types would advocate that and worse, like the asshole who believed that Jewish teachings justified his assassinating Yitzhak Rabin (I won't dignify him by trying to remember his name).
But these pathethic excuses for human beings are outliers, or should be. The thing is to marginalize Wiley Drake types while not offending some of the more fundamentalist, but not evil, types. Something that can probably only be done effectively by others within the faith. So if Huckabee, Beck, O'Reilly et. al. fail to denounce and ostracize this Drake assclown, they're no different from spectators failing to intervene during an assault. Passively evil.
June 10, 2009 8:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
@New10:
BTW, I meant to highlight your comment that Drake erred "in favor of a self-righteous and hypocritically applied Old Testament fire-and-brimstone style judgments of who has sinned". I think that's very well said, and that to act in that way is obviously a terrible thing, for a Christian, a Jew or anyone else. What I think you are saying is that it's particularly egregious for a so-called Christian to do so, in light of Jesus's very explicit teachings NOT to do that. No disagreement there whatsoever. And (as I think about it) that argument doesn't have to be read as belittling Jews in general; it's just that perhaps elements of the "religious establishment" of Jesus's time were erring toward strictness, "letter of the law", authoritarianism, and so on. All religions are prone to such corruption, imo, and I find it appealing to think of Jesus as a reformer, a progresive, sort of the ultimate community organizer, if you will. :-) The wording of that analogy is tongue-in-cheek, of course, but the basic idea is sound, and intended sincerely. Peace out.
June 10, 2009 7:55 PM | Reply | Permalink