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Sotomayor problem is very real, and Newt intends to ride it to the nomination
Gingrich thinks he's got a juicy issue here. If he gets her knocked out despite the mainstream party saying don't fight it too hard, he's their new leader and probably on his way to being nominated.
One can roll one's eyes and name-call all that one likes, but her statement is absolutely indefensible.
"I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experience would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life." I.e.,
"A...Latina woman...would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male." Spoken by a Federal Appellate judge. [SEE UPDATE BELOW, MAYBE SHE DIDN'T MEAN IT THIS WAY.]
Gingrich says flip it and tell me it's not withdrawal material: A white guy will usually make better decisions than a Latina.
Out of context? Baaaah! Context only confirms her intent and damages her more; it's the conclusion at the end of an argument she's made; it's no stray remark and it has nothing to do with Latin cuisine. It's worse than Reverend Wright; the Reverend didn't say it, she did.
It can either be side-stepped as over-enthusiasm, flight of exuberance, slip of the tongue, or maybe she just meant to say something else. Those are all tricky; it was published many months after she gave the speech I believe. Did she have an opportunity to review the text before it was published? If so, she's in more trouble.
Repubs are scrubbing the landscape, you can be sure, for a time she may have repeated this to anyone or said something similar. Either way, many will at best feel queasy about her always. Newt is betting that the excitement over her will subside while that quote doesn't go anywhere.
Maybe people will tend to not much notice or just be caught up in the excitement, the historic nature -- not focus. Newt intends to prevent that by any means necessary. He's a full-time presidential candidate and this is all that he works on, every day and night. Apart from kissing the Puerto Rican vote goodbye, will it blow up in his face?
UPDATE: WAIT! I realize there is a softer way to read what she said, that didn't occur to me. I think the critics read it like this, which is how I understood it:
"If you take a Latina, and Latinas are mostly wise, she'll normally make a better decision than some white guy."
She may have meant this, though, as I think of it: "If you take a Latina who happens to be wise and informed by a variety of experiences, she'll probably make a better decision than a white guy who isn't so informed and maybe isn't so wise." So maybe this is the explanation and it just wasn't obvious to many of us in her phrasing. Then she's off the hook, as I see it.
One can roll one's eyes and name-call all that one likes, but her statement is absolutely indefensible.
"I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experience would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life." I.e.,
"A...Latina woman...would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male." Spoken by a Federal Appellate judge. [SEE UPDATE BELOW, MAYBE SHE DIDN'T MEAN IT THIS WAY.]
Gingrich says flip it and tell me it's not withdrawal material: A white guy will usually make better decisions than a Latina.
Out of context? Baaaah! Context only confirms her intent and damages her more; it's the conclusion at the end of an argument she's made; it's no stray remark and it has nothing to do with Latin cuisine. It's worse than Reverend Wright; the Reverend didn't say it, she did.
It can either be side-stepped as over-enthusiasm, flight of exuberance, slip of the tongue, or maybe she just meant to say something else. Those are all tricky; it was published many months after she gave the speech I believe. Did she have an opportunity to review the text before it was published? If so, she's in more trouble.
Repubs are scrubbing the landscape, you can be sure, for a time she may have repeated this to anyone or said something similar. Either way, many will at best feel queasy about her always. Newt is betting that the excitement over her will subside while that quote doesn't go anywhere.
Maybe people will tend to not much notice or just be caught up in the excitement, the historic nature -- not focus. Newt intends to prevent that by any means necessary. He's a full-time presidential candidate and this is all that he works on, every day and night. Apart from kissing the Puerto Rican vote goodbye, will it blow up in his face?
UPDATE: WAIT! I realize there is a softer way to read what she said, that didn't occur to me. I think the critics read it like this, which is how I understood it:
"If you take a Latina, and Latinas are mostly wise, she'll normally make a better decision than some white guy."
She may have meant this, though, as I think of it: "If you take a Latina who happens to be wise and informed by a variety of experiences, she'll probably make a better decision than a white guy who isn't so informed and maybe isn't so wise." So maybe this is the explanation and it just wasn't obvious to many of us in her phrasing. Then she's off the hook, as I see it.
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Very astute observation, I agree with you completely.
Newt's goal is to create enough media controversy to draw attention to the actual words of the Wise Latina.
I would only add that the reason they do it is not to block her nomination (they can't), but to define "empathy" on their own terms and then tie that stone over Obama's neck.
May 30, 2009 9:07 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, the target is Obama, of course. Newt bloodies Obama.
This may have been a real misstep; not sure.
May 30, 2009 9:47 AM | Reply | Permalink
the reason they do it is not to block her nomination (they can't), but to define "empathy" on their own terms
Not true. The reason they do it is -- wait for it -- simple fund-raising. And it works, which is why all sides do it.
May 30, 2009 4:47 PM | Reply | Permalink
the reason they do it is not to block her nomination (they can't), but to define "empathy" on their own terms
Not true. The reason they do it is -- wait for it -- simple fund-raising. And it works, which is why all sides do it.
May 30, 2009 4:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's an interesting defense from Howard Feinman on Hardball.
She was being tongue-in-cheek, maybe:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/#31005076
May 30, 2009 10:34 AM | Reply | Permalink
I wouldn't worry. Even if he has "an issue", Gingrich is still going to be Gingrich, and the man is an opposition researcher's dream. He is also seen as utterly repellent by more Americans than see him as appealing or agreeable.
Gingrich as Obama's opponent in 2012 means a massive margin for re-election. He will turn out to be the McGovern or Mondale of the Republican Party.
May 30, 2009 11:15 AM | Reply | Permalink
Gingrich in 2012? I like that idea. Get all that rotten wood out of the shadows and into the sunlight where it'll dry out.
May 30, 2009 11:22 AM | Reply | Permalink
"I wouldn't worry. Even if he has "an issue", Gingrich is still going to be Gingrich, and the man is an opposition researcher's dream."
That's a good point. Rahm will make sure that good use is made of all that oppo stuff; these Chicago people are no wallflowers.
"He is also seen as utterly repellent by more Americans than see him as appealing or agreeable."
Hope that remains so. His angle, of course, is whitey. He needs to sew up the Talibangelical vote to get past the primary and that won't be easy against Huckabee and/or Palin, but that's no plan for the general so he also became a Catholic to appeal to blue-collar types.
"Gingrich as Obama's opponent in 2012 means a massive margin for re-election. He will turn out to be the McGovern or Mondale of the Republican Party."
Let's hope, eh? He intends to continually tear down Dems and Obama between now and then, of course. The other day he was calling for Pelosi to resign. He's always at it, one or two of these every week. I'd prefer Palin as the nominee! :)
May 30, 2009 11:36 AM | Reply | Permalink
You are a ditto-head, who has taken an out of context quote, acquired second-hand, and reformatted it. Are you proud to be a tool? Are you incapable of even looking for the original speech, and looking at the context?
The speech was given by Sotomayor at the University of California, Berkeley, School of Law's annual Honorable Mario G. Olmos Law & Cultural Diversity Memorial Lecture in 2001.
In the part of the speech where the quote you distorted came from, Sotomayor was referencing positions/opinions expressed by Judge Miriam Goldman Cedarbaum at a conference that was occurring the same time as this speech. Here's some context supplied with the quote, taken from a transcript of the speech, recently published by The New York Times:
Of course, anytime that Newt whines about reverse discrimination, it would be wise to remember that Gingrich was leading the charge to impeach a president for lying about an act of consensual fellatio in deposition given in a civil suit so frivolous, it was tossed summary judgment; while at the very same time was engaging in adulterous fornication with a woman who was also a paid member of his Congressional staff. How's that for reverse discrimination.
How does it feel to be a Newt polliwog?
May 30, 2009 11:32 AM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for the context. It's nice to see her take issue with O'Connor's silly notion of gender and truth.
May 30, 2009 11:42 AM | Reply | Permalink
You can insult me all you like and make all the faulty assumptions that you will, but the quote remains indefensible, which is why the WH isn't defending it and why she's got a problem.
If you just want to engage in pointless insults, fine:
You're a stupid otter.
May 30, 2009 11:52 AM | Reply | Permalink
You obviously can't read. Try again.
May 30, 2009 3:55 PM | Reply | Permalink
Fine, you as well are a stupid otter then. :(
May 30, 2009 3:59 PM | Reply | Permalink
"You are a ditto-head, who has taken an out of context quote, acquired second-hand, and reformatted it."
Where the fuck did you get that? What are you talking about? This is what the woman said, period.
Are you incapable of even looking for the original speech, and looking at the context?
And what *is* it with you insolent people and the sacred context? As I *said* above explicitly, the context doesn't help her at all:
"Whether born from experience or inherent physiological or cultural differences, a possibility I abhor less or discount less than my colleague Judge Cedarbaum, our gender and national origins may and will make a difference in our judging. Justice O'Connor has often been cited as saying that a wise old man and wise old woman will reach the same conclusion in deciding cases. I am not so sure Justice O'Connor is the author of that line since Professor Resnik attributes that line to Supreme Court Justice Coyle. I am also not so sure that I agree with the statement. First, as Professor Martha Minnow has noted, there can never be a universal definition of wise. Second, I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life."
That's why the President went on TV with an awkwardly worded defense of this, and why the New York Times is leading today saying that this may be an obstacle for her.
May 30, 2009 11:45 AM | Reply | Permalink
Yes, she seems to be saying that the richer the life experience, (she would hope) the better the conclusion, even when it is a latina woman with that life experience and a white man without it. Doesn't sound like the culture war's D-day to me.
I noticed you excised the passages about experience from your quote. No biggie.
May 30, 2009 11:50 AM | Reply | Permalink
Edited for veracity:
This is what (I think) the woman said, (according to my bullheaded ignorance) period.
Overreach THAT!
Buttsects
Also.
May 30, 2009 12:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
But what does your abuse mean?
She said this and it was published in Raza's journal:
"Whether born from experience or inherent physiological or cultural differences, a possibility I abhor less or discount less than my colleague Judge Cedarbaum, our gender and national origins may and will make a difference in our judging. Justice O'Connor has often been cited as saying that a wise old man and wise old woman will reach the same conclusion in deciding cases. I am not so sure Justice O'Connor is the author of that line since Professor Resnik attributes that line to Supreme Court Justice Coyle. I am also not so sure that I agree with the statement. First, as Professor Martha Minnow has noted, there can never be a universal definition of wise. Second, I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life."
What am I missing, okay, and let's discuss, perhaps without the ad hominem stuff?
May 30, 2009 1:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
What are you missing? You are missing this:
Let us not forget that wise men like Oliver Wendell Holmes and Justice Cardozo voted on cases which upheld both sex and race discrimination in our society. Until 1972, no Supreme Court case ever upheld the claim of a woman in a gender discrimination case. I, like Professor Carter, believe that we should not be so myopic as to believe that others of different experiences or backgrounds are incapable of understanding the values and needs of people from a different group. Many are so capable. As Judge Cedarbaum pointed out to me, nine white men on the Supreme Court in the past have done so on many occasions and on many issues including Brown.
Now read that again. Slowly. Use a dictionary to look up all the words you obviously don't know. BTW, when she says "Brown," she is referring to Brown v Board of Education. You do know what that decision was, don't you?
However, to understand takes time and effort, something that not all people are willing to give. For others, their experiences limit their ability to understand the experiences of others. Other simply do not care. Hence, one must accept the proposition that a difference there will be by the presence of women and people of color on the bench. Personal experiences affect the facts that judges choose to see. My hope is that I will take the good from my experiences and extrapolate them further into areas with which I am unfamiliar. I simply do not know exactly what that difference will be in my judging. But I accept there will be some based on my gender and my Latina heritage.
Now read that again. Slowly. The dictionary is your friend.
May 30, 2009 4:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey, I bet Overreach THIS! will read the dictionary if you agree to read Emily Post.
May 30, 2009 4:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
;-)
May 30, 2009 4:56 PM | Reply | Permalink
Has it occurred to you however fleetingly that not everyone will find the context as exculpatory as you do? We all realize that anyone who disagrees with you is an utter imbecile, naturally.
She'll have said similar offensive things as an activist and to some people who know her, so her hearing will be lively. You may be needed at the hearing to accordingly insult the Senators with your dictionary shtick - your mean-spirited belittling may be the key element needed to get her through the gauntlet.
May 31, 2009 12:00 AM | Reply | Permalink
Why are you so rude?
May 31, 2009 11:55 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Her statement is absolutely...wise."
You like it?
Additionally, why wasn't this issue advanced for what Alioto said during his Senate Judiciary Committee Confirmation hearing?
May 30, 2009 2:01 PM | Reply | Permalink
IOIYAR.
May 30, 2009 4:12 PM | Reply | Permalink
ValuedCitizen, I put down what she said exactly (right above the bold) and how a critic would interpret it, again using her words only.
It's this "better" thing thing that is so troubling. The essence of what she said, unfortunately, is really clear. Maybe it's cause I'm trained as a lawyer (or are you too?), but you learn to ascribe meaning to the words. It's very damaging.
Her best hopes I think are that they don't have more of this stuff on her (but I worry that they may well, as she was a real activist in youth), or that people just don't care because they're so pumped up (like me) about Obama, or that she can talk her way through it. She's a tough talker, and she's not afraid of anybody or their questioning, which is great for her.
May 30, 2009 12:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
OH! Now I see what you did there. Good point. This nation is chock full of moderate-to-right-wing citizens who would have a very hard time excusing a comment like this. What the comment was really supposed to mean is absolutely beside the point at hand.
By the way, I'm a musicologist (still ABD), not a lawyer, which probably means that to an extent, I tend to read into texts what I want.
May 30, 2009 1:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
I'm also a humble musician, ValuedCitizen, and I don't really know what a musicologist even is but I'd love to meet one someday and talk. People may not care about the quote, they may really not. Gingrich will try to get them to focus. But they may hate Gingrich and esp. Limbaugh so much that they'll just write it off as so much spluttering.
If so, great. Works for me!
May 30, 2009 1:17 PM | Reply | Permalink
What if the Supreme Court for its 200+ years had been made up 99.9% of the time of Latina judges, and at long last a white male was being considered? (I know, boys and girls, this scenario requires your brain to really stretch!)
If we looked back into the candidate's past and found a quote something like this:
"I would hope that a wise white male with the richness of his experience would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a Latina woman who hasn't lived that life."
Whether you agree or disagree with the sentence, would you be right in labeling it "racist," or could you reasonably understand that it is just someone making the point that new perspectives are valuable in a deliberative body?
May 30, 2009 1:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
1. I agree strongly about the 99.9%. How did those white guys all get there, anyway?
Merit only?
Racism/sexism go in both directions, and both have favored all those justices in a big damn way.
2. The sentence is idiotic and offensive. This a *Federal Appeals Court Judge*! What was she even thinking about?
May 30, 2009 1:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
You might not be right in labelling it "racist," but I bet you'd be pretty convincing without much additional effort. The culture war pump is primed, and there are lots of folks out there who have been expecting to see comments like these from the left all along. Whether or not the "racist" label is right, it sticks surprisingly well with some people.
May 30, 2009 1:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Anyway she's going to be confirmed. Give her a break - anyone here ever said anything really stoooopid?
May 30, 2009 1:14 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ha-ha, I done it lotsa times! I remember condescending (that would be the word, in honesty) in late 2007 to a less educated and lower ranking person that Hillary Clinton had it locked up, and no, the handsome darling named Barack Obama didn't have much of a chance despite my interlocutur's enthusiasm! Gosh, I'd like to go back and apologize now as I often think, but it was in a country far away.
Anyhow, I hope Justice Sotomayor will have a great run on the Court!
May 30, 2009 1:23 PM | Reply | Permalink
Ain't gonna happen. I don't see enough elected officials backing Newt's campaign to get rid of Sotomayor, they actually have Hispanic constituents to answer to unlike Newt. And Newt is not just risking the Puerto Rican vote, it's the entire Hispanic community in this country, women and Independents.
May 30, 2009 1:26 PM | Reply | Permalink
I read somewhere some guy laughing at the idea that Hispanics are united. Puerto Ricans vs. Mexicans? Don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were united enough to tell Newt to take a damn hike, as you say.
May 30, 2009 1:33 PM | Reply | Permalink
Again, maybe if you'd actually read the Sotomayor speech, instead of playing copy/pasta ditto-head, you would have learned something:
May 30, 2009 2:07 PM | Reply | Permalink
Where the *fuck* do you get off repeatedly presuming that I hadn't read the speech when I told you in my original post that I know the context and it doesn't help her? Or did you read my post, boor?
May 30, 2009 2:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
May 30, 2009 2:22 PM | Reply | Permalink
Again, did I read it or not, huh? Again?
It was boring, I can tell you that. Sound close?
The sentence is indefensible. The President said the "sweep" of the whole article explains it. What if that's not enough? Do we need to move to the sweep of her other writings, too, to get the fuller picture?
The statement is indefensible. Which is why the President, bless him, isn't defending it. And your purple posts don't add a thing.
May 30, 2009 2:30 PM | Reply | Permalink
You obviously didn't understand the context and/or failed to read beyond the sentence in question. Give up. You're just plain wrong.
May 30, 2009 4:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Many others won't "understand" the context either. They will regard the sentence as patently offensive and indeed, bizarre.
You give it up. You're just plain obtuse. Shame you don't have the capacity to politely disagree with someone.
May 30, 2009 11:15 PM | Reply | Permalink
Hey Forumites - Don't you people know
what a troll is? Ignore it and it will
go away.
Overreach - you are obviously
a Republican troll and an ignorant,
arrogant racist.
May 30, 2009 3:03 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yeah, this is the best yet.
I'm a Republican troll. Great.
May 30, 2009 3:16 PM | Reply | Permalink
Every single post you make
proves my point.
May 30, 2009 5:28 PM | Reply | Permalink
Before you make that charge, why don't you go back and read some of Overreach's previous comments and blogs and then make an EDUCATED assessment. I think you're overreacting to the fact that you disagree with her. I disagree about this too, but OT is definitely not a troll.
Overreach: I liked your Elvis avatar better, for what it's worth.
May 30, 2009 4:11 PM | Reply | Permalink
And I think you are underreacting
to her monumentally offensive avatar.
May 30, 2009 5:31 PM | Reply | Permalink
Wow. Now I've heard it all.
So I guess Speedy Gonzales perpetuates the stereotype that Mexicans run fast, help others in need, and foil the murderous plans of lisping cats?
May 30, 2009 5:54 PM | Reply | Permalink
*Sigh*. CVille Dem, thanks so very much. It's so awful how "I strongly disagree" on here instantly becomes "How could anyone be such a total imbecile?" Why would anyone think that's necessary?
Anyhow, your Elvis catch really woke me up! Wow, you are observant! Maybe I'll have to switch back, as some find S. Gonzalez offensive as I have learned. Anyhow, thanks much once again!
May 30, 2009 11:10 PM | Reply | Permalink
Yikes. God forbid you ever disagree with me...
Let's all breathe deeply and count to ten here, OK?
May 30, 2009 4:21 PM | Reply | Permalink
It's just wild how "I strongly disagree" is so often often expressed here as "How could you be such a complete imbecile?!!" It sure makes it hard to have a conversation.
May 30, 2009 10:48 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for the full quote. I truly believe the media tries to limit what the audience thinks about but they can't tell us what to think.
A bruising judicial hearing is just what media wants. It may produce good television but makes lousy politics for the Republicans. Republicans are determined to self destruct. I say move out the way and let them have at it.
May 30, 2009 4:04 PM | Reply | Permalink
dont get your panties in a bunch from excitment.
the idea that newt wants to be the nominee is hardly a deft conclusion.
nor is it anything to be even mildly concerned about.
the idea that the possibility concerns you shows how little you know about politics or what the people in this country think.
if it keeps you up at night...well you get what you deserve.
May 30, 2009 4:52 PM | Reply | Permalink
Thanks for the collegial exchange. Sure appreciate it.
May 30, 2009 10:53 PM | Reply | Permalink
How anyone could make this kind
of post with that avatar, and garner
support, is completely beyond me.
It's the kind of thing I would
expect to see at FreeRepublic.
May 30, 2009 5:34 PM | Reply | Permalink
Context is everything, and -- read in full -- Sotomayor's remarks are totally defensible. And true.
She was making a nuanced, reflective and powerful case for how more diversity would improve the court.
Right after the sentence Overreach quotes in indefensibly truncated form, she says: "Let us not forget that wise men like Oliver Wendell Holmes and Justice Cardozo voted on cases which upheld both sex and race discrimination in our society. Until 1972, no Supreme Court case ever upheld the claim of a woman in a gender discrimination case."
To her credit, she didn't conclude, "And that's why never again must an old, white male be appointed to the Supreme Court."
Which she would have been justified in doing.
Let Newt fulminate all he wants. Nobody is buying it, except the shriveled (old, white male) Republican base.
May 30, 2009 5:35 PM | Reply | Permalink
"Context is everything"
No it isn't! The statement is offensive (it's amazing, actually), and if you think the context excuses it, bully for you. A whole lot of people don't.
May 30, 2009 10:43 PM | Reply | Permalink
Here's another reason why Sotomayor will be OK, and it's from Kathleen Parker's op-ed in tomorrow's WaPo:
Parker is as conservative as they come, and even she is disgusted with the Republican party and it's irrational behavior (to put it nicely).
Parker ended with this:
Last week Newt was bleating about lowering taxes and even got on some Republican's ass for saying that lower taxes aren't a good stimulus or something. The American people aren't looking for lower taxes, and I doubt that they're looking for a racist/sexist fight, either. Didn't we already do that during the primary? People are over it, except for the base of course. And no one is listening to them except a few politicians. Others are starting to look at reality.
IMHO.
May 30, 2009 6:39 PM | Reply | Permalink
Your reply is a model of polite, informed disagreement. You add to the discussion.
Thanks.
So much better and more valuable than "How could you be such a total idiot?!!", which is so unfortunately common on here.
I hope Newt continues to fail to get any traction.
May 30, 2009 10:58 PM | Reply | Permalink
Golly, so much fine talmudic parsing of one goddam sentence around here. I read the first half of your thread OT, then gave up. I also saw your update which is beside the point. I agree with your first take: the sentence is indefensible as it stands.
But if this GOP talking point is going to have any traction, it's got to be seen as part of a pattern of statements and behavior on her part. It doesn't even fit into a pattern within the longer quote which is more about the value of having a variety of experience-informed perspectives when a panel comes to a judgment. Of course now they're scouring her past for the bonanza 'shoot whitey' video, but judging by what I see in this speech, they're not going to find it. So I wouldn't defend that line as others are doing around here, but I also wouldn't draw the conclusion that the Sotomayor problem is 'REAL'.
Sorry to see people taking wild swings at you for making a pretty basic point on this issue, that apparently deserved to be made.
May 31, 2009 7:16 AM | Reply | Permalink
"Sorry to see people taking wild swings at you for making a pretty basic point on this issue, that apparently deserved to be made." Thanks a lot for that, Obey! I was jovially called a "moron" for this stuff on another thread.
May 31, 2009 8:53 AM | Reply | Permalink
Well, as long as people are being 'jovial' about it, that's okay then... ;0/
May 31, 2009 9:59 AM | Reply | Permalink